Guild Wars 2

I remember the reason I stopped playing this game. I might do another break. Knowing anet they’ll buff condis, buff sustain, and nerf power. If this balance patch looks like that, I’m done.

Really, does anyone else feel the same about these rampant condi bunkers?

The Game Slayer.7632:

I remember the reason I stopped playing this game. I might do another break. Knowing anet they’ll buff condis, buff sustain, and nerf power. If this balance patch looks like that, I’m done.

Really, does anyone else feel the same about these rampant condi bunkers?

Skilled Power>Skilled condi

I’m afraid we’ll never see a power meta again. It’d drive away 70% of the people who pvp, that simply can’t play anything else except Engi and Necro.

dustydawg.3105:

I’m afraid we’ll never see a power meta again. It’d drive away 70% of the people who pvp, that simply can’t play anything else except Engi and Necro.

Atm Engi use power build in 99%

I don’t understand how wanderers or carrion amulets are bunker? Lol.

Over 8 “meta” builds, only 3 are Condi builds.
There’s 3 direct damage dps, 3 condition damage hybrid and 2 bunkers (and both use direct damage, not condition).
On the paper, the game is really balanced, and in favor of the Direct damage.

Then, there’s a large amount of Conditions. Frequently qhen you see a large amount of conditions lesser than half of them are Damaging conditions, and frequently aren’t highly stacked.

Condition damage is another way to inflict damage, have higher conterplay than direct damage, more builds focus on remove/convert/sendback conditions and a well structured team have not any problem against a condibomb team.

Condition damage is at the same level of direct damage. They both need a skilled player to be really strong, they need to hit the enemy to be effective and there’s ways to mitigate them both, in different ways.
They’re two different ways to inflict damage and work with different mechanics, but they’re both strong.
hHalf of the people that ask for a condition nerf think that condition don’t have to inflict good damage. And a years ago condition damage was not inflicting damage, but no one used it why no one want to be useless. That’s why ABNet chose to make direct and condition damage on the same level.

Actually there’s a good balance in the number of who use conditions and who don’t.

Then, if you’re focused by a condi team or a direct team, you’ll die quickly and with lesser options to save your skin if focused by a direct damage team. But also a condibomb can kill you and you need to know that to play properly.

If you’re a solo player, like 95% of the people that write on the forum, you’ll find that there’s only necro and engi to play (the best condition and the best direct class, barely at the same level of damage), but if you play in a Team, like the game want and is designed for, you’ll find that there’s a lot of options, builds, team compositions, that you can try and find really strong against the meta builds.

If you don’t want to see condition damage inflict the same damage of a direct damage (but still in a longer time, also if sometimes is not too longer), take another break and be happy. or directly try another game.

Actually that’s the game we have and is more or less balanced between direct, condi and bunker (not the perfect game, but still a good one). if you like it and have time to spend forming a team and fighting in real challenges, that’s your game. If you want to play at random with casuals and hate ther condition damage, that’s really not your game, no more.

Silv.9207:

Condition damage is at the same level of direct damage. They both need a skilled player to be really strong, they need to hit the enemy to be effective and there’s ways to mitigate them both, in different ways.
They’re two different ways to inflict damage and work with different mechanics, but they’re both strong.

Oh.My.God. Did you just say Condition build and Power build are on the same level ? Oh.LORD.
Let’s me prove to you most condition build are easier to play than power build.
Mesmer: Power shatter vs. Condi Shatter
Power shatter relies on F1 shatter, blurred frenzy, Mirrior blade combo, and phantasmal berserker. If you can dodge any of these 4 things listed above, that’s a whole lot of damage you’re avoiding. (require set-up, reaction based fight)
Condi shatter: All F abilities apply torment and confusion. Spam shatter. Tell me what do you dodge when you fight against a Condi shatter mes? what are the big skills you need to dodge ? ( no set-up require, cool-down based fight)

geekilo.8512:

Silv.9207:

Condition damage is at the same level of direct damage. They both need a skilled player to be really strong, they need to hit the enemy to be effective and there’s ways to mitigate them both, in different ways.
They’re two different ways to inflict damage and work with different mechanics, but they’re both strong.

Oh.My.God. Did you just say Condition build and Power build are on the same level ? Oh.LORD.
Let’s me prove to you most condition build are easier to play than power build.
Mesmer: Power shatter vs. Condi Shatter
Power shatter relies on F1 shatter, blurred frenzy, Mirrior blade combo, and phantasmal berserker. If you can dodge any of these 4 things listed above, that’s a whole lot of damage you’re avoiding. (require set-up, reaction based fight)
Condi shatter: All F abilities apply torment and confusion. Spam shatter. Tell me what do you dodge when you fight against a Condi shatter mes? what are the big skills you need to dodge ? ( no set-up require, cool-down based fight)

It still amazes me how ppl rly believes that power takes more skill than condi. Condi engi takes more skill than power engi for instance, so its totally irrelevant

I truly suck at scrapper as I got wrecked all morning playing it though I was constantly getting jumped by a 2nd. I have a ton of fun on condi rev and find shoutbow druid can 1v1 majority of classes. I certainly don’t struggle much vs mesmer or scrapper (but they are extremely annoying)

geekilo.8512:

Silv.9207:

Condition damage is at the same level of direct damage. They both need a skilled player to be really strong, they need to hit the enemy to be effective and there’s ways to mitigate them both, in different ways.
They’re two different ways to inflict damage and work with different mechanics, but they’re both strong.

Oh.My.God. Did you just say Condition build and Power build are on the same level ? Oh.LORD.
Let’s me prove to you most condition build are easier to play than power build.
Mesmer: Power shatter vs. Condi Shatter
Power shatter relies on F1 shatter, blurred frenzy, Mirrior blade combo, and phantasmal berserker. If you can dodge any of these 4 things listed above, that’s a whole lot of damage you’re avoiding. (require set-up, reaction based fight)
Condi shatter: All F abilities apply torment and confusion. Spam shatter. Tell me what do you dodge when you fight against a Condi shatter mes? what are the big skills you need to dodge ? ( no set-up require, cool-down based fight)

Gladly. Shatter is shatter, you have to avoid the illusions. You have to dodge the 3 illusion shatters.
On a side note:
1. I main mesmer and I only use F1 and F2 to deal dmg. I need my F3 to interrupt skills/rezz/stomps and if was to use my F4 offensively…. that would not be practical….

2. You have to set up Illusions, the Shatter mechanics do not change just because you are using conditions. Also one condition hardly kills you. So as a condition dealer you have to use cover-conditions and apply more than one kind of condition. (That’s why burn guard isn’t viable). That’s what I call setup.

3.
On power: one skill does instant dmg

On conditions: one skill does dmg over time
If you bring cleanses you can migrate that dmg… and you can still dodge the skill… so I fail to see the the problem.

4. Still on mesmer: I see so many that attack into my scepter block and then run around like a headless chicken. It’s good to know what effects conditions have.

5. I think most are annoyed about the fact, that they are already dead when get hit by a killing blow, but life still isn’t at zero. In power battles the other knows he is dead when the skill connects. Most just don’t like bleeding out.

6 . I hade but one pvp game, where I received more condition dmg than direct dmg…

Condis need 1 stat to be powerful. Power needs 3.

You also don’t have nearly as many traits that simply proc on crit like condis do. Imagine a world where condi and power are on the same level.. You’d have things like protection, which would protect against condition damage. Toughness too.

See, the problem with condition damage is that you can do the maximum damage that condis can do and still manage to have 1/3 or 1/2 of your stats allocated to being a bunker. If you want to do the same with power, you need to go zerker. End of story. Imagine a full zerk player going up against a full ‘glass’ condi build.. (lets say that condition damage required 3 stats).. You’d be having some fair fights going on. But we don’t see that.

The reason people call other people out for being condi, and the reason why people say power takes more skill, is for the aforementioned reason. If you mess up as condi, it’s okay because you have a ridiculous amount of stats to help you out defensively. (Also did I mention that you’re still doing max damage as a condition dealer? I feel like people should know that.)

Conditions are too powerful atm.
A Conditions build should never burst as fast or even faster than a Power build.
Besides that,there’s way too much availability and the spam is real,and it’s mostly passive play with too much reward for the effort and skill put into it.
Make Conditions DoTs again,and leave burst for the Power builds.

The Game Slayer.7632:

Condis need 1 stat to be powerful. Power needs 3.

You also don’t have nearly as many traits that simply proc on crit like condis do. Imagine a world where condi and power are on the same level.. You’d have things like protection, which would protect against condition damage. Toughness too.

See, the problem with condition damage is that you can do the maximum damage that condis can do and still manage to have 1/3 or 1/2 of your stats allocated to being a bunker. If you want to do the same with power, you need to go zerker. End of story. Imagine a full zerk player going up against a full ‘glass’ condi build.. (lets say that condition damage required 3 stats).. You’d be having some fair fights going on. But we don’t see that.

The reason people call other people out for being condi, and the reason why people say power takes more skill, is for the aforementioned reason. If you mess up as condi, it’s okay because you have a ridiculous amount of stats to help you out defensively. (Also did I mention that you’re still doing max damage as a condition dealer? I feel like people should know that.)

The thing is, power meta builds have waaay more sustain than condi ones do.

Rofl people are still saying certain condi builds requ more skill than power? xD Other than maybe condi engi, condi excels (yes i’m including hybrid) over power almost all the time.

People forget, when you switch condi in any class, you still have the same defensive cds/ blocks dodges etc, as you would playing Beserker, except now you have more passive fears, cc etc/ defensive stats, most likely toughness and/ or vitality.

Mesmer is the prime example. They run the 3 most defensive /supportive trait lines, which would be useless with marauder because you dont have the raw damage /sustain.

By playing condi or some hybrid, you can simply stack up (SPAM) your shatters then allow your trait lines to support you/ keep you alive while your are STILL producing damage and most importantly, pressure on your opponents.

On top of defensive buffs such as Protection, retaliation and last stand/earth armour/ stone signet etc not affecting condition damage which has already been applied or from being applies, the braindead option is clearly to run condition in some form. The trade off in skill and reward favours reward too much with these builds.

Are condition builds breaking the game? No. Are they prominent to a point that people really get put off by pvp and the meta because those 3-4 condi builds are the most common, and therefore the most defining on the game’s meta and over all enjoyment? Yes.

The worst thing is going into unranked for some fun, and seeing EVERY GAME some tryhard condi chrono shatter mesmer still playing that dumb kittening build and acting like they have skill. It makes me sick….in unranked?

BeepBoopBap.2840:

I don’t understand how wanderers or carrion amulets are bunker? Lol.

Easy, bunker is a class that can absorb dmg for some time and its doesnt mean that he\she should be a supp\heal build.

I can’t believe some of the posts I read on here, only thing missing is someone saying how
Condi Mesmer takes skill…

Everyone runs condi now, its easy as kitten and takes no skill.

Only zerker mara is viable, which is freakin LOL.

This meta is probably the worst so far.. bunker condis everywhere..

serj.8214:

BeepBoopBap.2840:

I don’t understand how wanderers or carrion amulets are bunker? Lol.

Easy, bunker is a class that can absorb dmg for some time and its doesnt mean that he\she should be a supp\heal build.

Well I guess a berserker double endure pain zerk stance warrior is a bunker then. Staff thief too?

I hate condition builds as much as the next guy but you guys are just being silly. Paladin scrapper has more defensive stats than the mesmer, warrior, or necro builds.

None of you will ever be happy.

I have always enjoyed PvP regardless of Meta/nerfs/buffs. Remember everything has counters.

Unlikely.3627:

None of you will ever be happy.

I have always enjoyed PvP regardless of Meta/nerfs/buffs. Remember everything has counters.

Between core changes in 2015 and HOT release, i didn’t really noticed the content drown because i was enjoying pvp too much (reaction/skill based). Then, couple months after HOT released, people got most of the their stuff, content drown happens again but this time all these BS condi bunker builds are everywhere, just spam away the condi. It’s not fun to pvp anymore. The reason i still play this game is to socialize and talk about random kitten with my guildies.

P.S. I still have a little hope Anet might make it right in the next big patch.

BeepBoopBap.2840:

serj.8214:

BeepBoopBap.2840:

I don’t understand how wanderers or carrion amulets are bunker? Lol.

Easy, bunker is a class that can absorb dmg for some time and its doesnt mean that he\she should be a supp\heal build.

Well I guess a berserker double endure pain zerk stance warrior is a bunker then. Staff thief too?

I hate condition builds as much as the next guy but you guys are just being silly. Paladin scrapper has more defensive stats than the mesmer, warrior, or necro builds.

Agreed.

I can understand players not liking condi. But calling them bunkers now is inaccurate due to the amulets available – especially when looking at Carrion or Viper.

Only Rabid could be considered bunker, and then they melt anyway to incoming condis due to low health pool.

For example I am way more “bunker” playing Demolisher power mesmer than playing Viper condi/hybrid mesmer…

atm anet succeed to make balance between condi dmg and power dmg – GG for them

the only problem which needs to be address is sustain, passive sustain for several classes

consi mesmer is the right place atm just with amulet gone
condi warrior has better sustain which need to be address
necro is in the right place in the right situation

some power build need to be address like engi, warrior, and also guard abilities to block

i am talking pvp. as in wvw or off point fight its different story

Krysard.1364:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Condis need 1 stat to be powerful. Power needs 3.

You also don’t have nearly as many traits that simply proc on crit like condis do. Imagine a world where condi and power are on the same level.. You’d have things like protection, which would protect against condition damage. Toughness too.

See, the problem with condition damage is that you can do the maximum damage that condis can do and still manage to have 1/3 or 1/2 of your stats allocated to being a bunker. If you want to do the same with power, you need to go zerker. End of story. Imagine a full zerk player going up against a full ‘glass’ condi build.. (lets say that condition damage required 3 stats).. You’d be having some fair fights going on. But we don’t see that.

The reason people call other people out for being condi, and the reason why people say power takes more skill, is for the aforementioned reason. If you mess up as condi, it’s okay because you have a ridiculous amount of stats to help you out defensively. (Also did I mention that you’re still doing max damage as a condition dealer? I feel like people should know that.)

The thing is, power meta builds have waaay more sustain than condi ones do.

Not the case for warrior, I understand your main necro or a condi class but condi dmg has to be tone down. It take literally zero skill. Most condi are Aoe. Can you believe thief applies condi by just dodginh? ? And that’s normal??

Anet NERF THIEF, NERF GUARDIAN..

Thanks.

Can you belive warrior has always been able to deal dmg by dodging?

Btw, i can’t understand why ppl want to nerf the only few counters to the ridiculous sustain and boon spam (mostly passive btw, much more than any condi application) thats dominating the meta …
Nerfing condis won’t suddenly create a “skillfull” power meta. Condi builds are NOT what keeps many power builds out of the meta. Passives, boons and spammable defenses are what makes “skillfull or high risk” builds useless and thats true for both condi and power.

Yeah two dodges, which are not even aoe .. and you have to be close to your target for it to land. Omg, why am I making so much sense!!

geekilo.8512:

Unlikely.3627:

None of you will ever be happy.

I have always enjoyed PvP regardless of Meta/nerfs/buffs. Remember everything has counters.

Between core changes in 2015 and HOT release, i didn’t really noticed the content drown because i was enjoying pvp too much (reaction/skill based). Then, couple months after HOT released, people got most of the their stuff, content drown happens again but this time all these BS condi bunker builds are everywhere, just spam away the condi. It’s not fun to pvp anymore. The reason i still play this game is to socialize and talk about random kitten with my guildies.

P.S. I still have a little hope Anet might make it right in the next big patch.

I still have loads of fun PvPing, and 4 out of 5 professions I play are running power builds…

Krysard.1364:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Condis need 1 stat to be powerful. Power needs 3.

You also don’t have nearly as many traits that simply proc on crit like condis do. Imagine a world where condi and power are on the same level.. You’d have things like protection, which would protect against condition damage. Toughness too.

See, the problem with condition damage is that you can do the maximum damage that condis can do and still manage to have 1/3 or 1/2 of your stats allocated to being a bunker. If you want to do the same with power, you need to go zerker. End of story. Imagine a full zerk player going up against a full ‘glass’ condi build.. (lets say that condition damage required 3 stats).. You’d be having some fair fights going on. But we don’t see that.

The reason people call other people out for being condi, and the reason why people say power takes more skill, is for the aforementioned reason. If you mess up as condi, it’s okay because you have a ridiculous amount of stats to help you out defensively. (Also did I mention that you’re still doing max damage as a condition dealer? I feel like people should know that.)

The thing is, power meta builds have waaay more sustain than condi ones do.

The thing is though, (and I’m restating this as this isn’t the first time I’ve said it), The reason power meta builds have “waaay more sustain than condi” is because they had to sacrifice much of their power output to increase their sustain. (By the way, this is completely assuming that your statement is true, which I disagree with because it’s not even close to the truth.)

If you want to increase your sustain as a condition build, you don’t have to sacrifice any of your condition damage.

The Game Slayer.7632:

The thing is though, (and I’m restating this as this isn’t the first time I’ve said it), The reason power meta builds have “waaay more sustain than condi” is because they had to sacrifice much of their power output to increase their sustain. (By the way, this is completely assuming that your statement is true, which I disagree with because it’s not even close to the truth.)

If you want to increase your sustain as a condition build, you don’t have to sacrifice any of your condition damage.

That’s not really true. Scrapper, Revenant, Druid, DH (some more than others) really good sustain on top of really good damage. Revenant has a crazy amount of defenses and is basically full glass. Scrapper is almost fully specced into defense and can be a kitten to kill but can have nice damage on top of it. Druid can be super tanky while the pet does massive damage to you and the Druid just kites. DH has great defenses and damage too but they are… what they are.
On top of that, most power builds have a ton of damage modifiers all over their traits…. whereas condi damage literally has no damage modifiers, aside from the occasional Might and Vuln (both of which power builds utilize just as well, if not better).

And to say that condi builds sacrifice nothing for damage – Warriors are a little dumb, but they spec largely into defenses to be able to be that tanky. Necros have to spec into Soul Reaping and Reaper which gives sustain – otherwise they’d be squish.

MethaneGas.8357:

The Game Slayer.7632:

The thing is though, (and I’m restating this as this isn’t the first time I’ve said it), The reason power meta builds have “waaay more sustain than condi” is because they had to sacrifice much of their power output to increase their sustain. (By the way, this is completely assuming that your statement is true, which I disagree with because it’s not even close to the truth.)

If you want to increase your sustain as a condition build, you don’t have to sacrifice any of your condition damage.

That’s not really true. Scrapper, Revenant, Druid, DH (some more than others) really good sustain on top of really good damage. Revenant has a crazy amount of defenses and is basically full glass. Scrapper is almost fully specced into defense and can be a kitten to kill but can have nice damage on top of it. Druid can be super tanky while the pet does massive damage to you and the Druid just kites. DH has great defenses and damage too but they are… what they are.
On top of that, most power builds have a ton of damage modifiers all over their traits…. whereas condi damage literally has no damage modifiers, aside from the occasional Might and Vuln (both of which power builds utilize just as well, if not better).

And to say that condi builds sacrifice nothing for damage – Warriors are a little dumb, but they spec largely into defenses to be able to be that tanky. Necros have to spec into Soul Reaping and Reaper which gives sustain – otherwise they’d be squish.

Okay, you’re not really understanding what I’m saying here. I’ll clarify my point and try to make it simpler.

The difference between a zerker and paladins amulet is huge in terms of power damage.

The difference between a sinister and rabid amulet is 900 toughness, with no change to the amount of condition damage you’d be doing.

You make the traits whatever you want to make them in either power or condi, 900 toughness is arguably far better than any trait line out there.

900 toughness alone does barely anything without defensive traits and utilities. Lack of vitality can be an issue too (there is no marauder equivalent for condi builds).

I like to take trap ranger as example. For reasonable dmg output he has to invest into an offensive traitline and offensive utilities which results in much less overall defense than something like a marauder druid, who takes only defensive traitlines and utilities, even if the trap ranger has higher defensive stats from the amulet. Trap ranger is a condi build, yet far from viable. Being condi doesn’t make a build automatically good. It’s not the condis in general, that are an issue.

Or look at scrapper, who has sustain like a bunker, even with an offensive amulet. All from traits and skills.

Also keep in mind, condi builds don’t only lose less dmg with tankier amulets, this also means, they gain less dmg than power builds by going full glass, especially when it comes to burst dmg. In most cases zerk would be superior to sinister due to much better burst dmg.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

900 toughness alone does barely anything without defensive traits and utilities. Lack of vitality can be an issue too (there is no marauder equivalent for condi builds).

I like to take trap ranger as example. For reasonable dmg output he has to invest into an offensive traitline and offensive utilities which results in much less overall defense than something like a marauder druid, who takes only defensive traitlines and utilities, even if the trap ranger has higher defensive stats from the amulet. Trap ranger is a condi build, yet far from viable. Being condi doesn’t make a build automatically good. It’s not the condis in general, that are an issue.

Or look at scrapper, who has sustain like a bunker, even with an offensive amulet. All from traits and skills.

Also keep in mind, condi builds don’t only lose less dmg with tankier amulets, this also means, they gain less dmg than power builds by going full glass, especially when it comes to burst dmg. In most cases zerk would be superior to sinister due to much better burst dmg.

Traits and skills are irrelevant- both condi builds and power builds can use them. It’s not a point for discussion when you’re talking about power and condi. Period.

You go on to say 900 toughness means absolutely nothing. Okay. I think we’ll have to agree to disagree.

Then why do (meta) scrapper don’t play condi? Or druid? Or dh? Or rev? If skills and traits doesn’t matter and condis are superior in general because of stats …

The Game Slayer.7632:

Condis need 1 stat to be powerful. Power needs 3.

You also don’t have nearly as many traits that simply proc on crit like condis do. Imagine a world where condi and power are on the same level.. You’d have things like protection, which would protect against condition damage. Toughness too.

See, the problem with condition damage is that you can do the maximum damage that condis can do and still manage to have 1/3 or 1/2 of your stats allocated to being a bunker. If you want to do the same with power, you need to go zerker. End of story. Imagine a full zerk player going up against a full ‘glass’ condi build.. (lets say that condition damage required 3 stats).. You’d be having some fair fights going on. But we don’t see that.

The reason people call other people out for being condi, and the reason why people say power takes more skill, is for the aforementioned reason. If you mess up as condi, it’s okay because you have a ridiculous amount of stats to help you out defensively. (Also did I mention that you’re still doing max damage as a condition dealer? I feel like people should know that.)

Not to mention how many of the really nasty condi’s are ground-targeted AoE.

1v1 they’re not too horribly hard to not get hit by, but when you have a signet necro dropping them in a team fight (say, opening fight at mid) you have one person doing an absolutely ridiculous amount of damage to 3-4 players from a safe(ish) distance. Or a full-bunker DH running through a team fight crapping traps everywhere. Or a trap ranger doing the same. Condi is both as damaging as power, and capable of 5-person aoe, and is generally able to be used from a safe(ish) distance instead of melee range.

And then when you consider how few condi cleanses there are and how many of them are on long (20sec+) cooldowns compared to blocks/reflects (since the ground targeted aoe ignores reflect and at least some of the blocks)….I hope I’m making my point.

As an example of how powerful condi is (yes this is cherry-picking): Warrior’s bow skill Pin Down—approximately 600 direct damage (non-crit) but applies 6 stacks of bleed, which then tick (6 stacks combined) for 2k, and with the current meta build lasts for 12 seconds. 1 skill that will do approximately 1/6th-1/8th of a player’s health per second (considering most pvp builds have between 13k and 18k health) or 24k over its full duration, cannot be blocked or dodged once applied, and is on a relatively short cooldown. Guaranteed kill if not cleansed from 1 ability. Also persists through downing, so it can both down and kill in 1 application. Find me any power-based attack that doesn’t require extensive setup (thus discounting GS power warr or mesmer shatters) that’s that powerful.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Then why do (meta) scrapper don’t play condi? Or druid? Or dh? Or rev? If skills and traits doesn’t matter and condis are superior in general because of stats …

i can talk only about revenant cuz i dont play scrapper condi nor druid so i have no idea about them. The reason revenants prefer to play power rather than condi is that the condi side has less evades/stun breaks/mobility. Revenant is only class that if going for condi, has to go full melee and lose all his mobility.
The difference between revenant condi and necro condi, is that landing skills with revenant condi is much more harder, so you cant really spam condis like it’s christmas. That’s the reason you see more power revenants, and to be honest condi revenant is (unfortunately) the only example of how condi builds should be, in a way that you have still to be agressive all the time, and you havent the spam capacity to cover your mistakes or your missed attacks.

So many false statements …

Lucred.1802:

Not to mention how many of the really nasty condi’s are ground-targeted AoE.

Necro’s marks and scepter 2, warrior lb burst skill … that’s all. Marks don’t deal that much dmg anymore after chill nerf and the firefield from warrior isn’t too hard to avoid.

Lucred.1802:

Or a full-bunker DH running through a team fight crapping traps everywhere. Or a trap ranger doing the same. Condi is both as damaging as power, and capable of 5-person aoe, and is generally able to be used from a safe(ish) distance instead of melee range.

A full bunker dh isn’t going to do any mentionable dmg at all. If dh traps hurt, it is a power dps build. Traps are not ranged/ground-targeted btw. Trap ranger is even less viable than power dh – for good reasons.

Lucred.1802:

And then when you consider how few condi cleanses there are and how many of them are on long (20sec+) cooldowns compared to blocks/reflects (since the ground targeted aoe ignores reflect and at least some of the blocks)….I hope I’m making my point.

Most classes have frequent access to condi cleanse, not only every 20 seconds. And you don’t have to cleanse all condis, nor are you supposed to be able to do so. Also ground targeted aoe is not the main source of condis.

Lucred.1802:

As an example of how powerful condi is (yes this is cherry-picking): Warrior’s bow skill Pin Down—approximately 600 direct damage (non-crit) but applies 6 stacks of bleed, which then tick (6 stacks combined) for 2k, and with the current meta build lasts for 12 seconds. 1 skill that will do approximately 1/6th-1/8th of a player’s health per second (considering most pvp builds have between 13k and 18k health) or 24k over its full duration, cannot be blocked or dodged once applied, and is on a relatively short cooldown. Guaranteed kill if not cleansed from 1 ability. Also persists through downing, so it can both down and kill in 1 application. Find me any power-based attack that doesn’t require extensive setup (thus discounting GS power warr or mesmer shatters) that’s that powerful.

6 stacks of bleeds are ticking for about 600/s, not 2k. On wanderer/krait setup the total dmg is about 12k (more with might/vuln, but definitely not 24k, less with rabid or carrion amulet or a different rune). It will take 22s to deal that much dmg from this single skill. More than enough time to heal or cleanse. It has 25s cd which is quite long compared to many other important dmg skills and it has a distinctive animation and reasonable casttime, which makes it not that hard to dodge/block/evade/reflect or blind it. And if you get hit you can still cleanse.

An afk zerk ele or thief is the only think you can kill with Pin Down alone.

I could understand complaints about Skull Grinder, but Pin Down is a pretty balanced skill and a good example of how skills should be. Powerful, but with reasonable counterplay.

Shala.8352:

The reason revenants prefer to play power rather than condi is that the condi side has less evades/stun breaks/mobility. Revenant is only class that if going for condi, has to go full melee and lose all his mobility.

Similar is actually true for other classes too, not only for rev. Condi engi loses the defensive skills from hammer, condi ranger loses mobility and/or ranged dmg, condi warrior loses mobility – just some examples.

the fact that condies have = or more damage than power builds is alone a huge mistake, theres a reason why condies are spammable, ignore armor and have debuffs

conditions can hard counter Power builds , the same cannot be said back wards

wanna counter a burst build? just slap weakness on the target and finish it as it ll be glassy most likely

The only condition that is kittening me off is confusion, there are simply too many stacks of it. And it does more damage than any other condition in pvp.

Rezzet.3614:

the fact that condies have = or more damage than power builds is alone a huge mistake, theres a reason why condies are spammable, ignore armor and have debuffs

conditions can hard counter Power builds , the same cannot be said back wards

wanna counter a burst build? just slap weakness on the target and finish it as it ll be glassy most likely

Want to counter a condi build? Burst it, since it can’t burst you back. Just don’t burst their defensive abilities (Endure Pain for Warriors, Shroud for Necros, Distortion/Temporal Rift for Mesmers). Avoid the Weakness (really only coming out of Necros anyway on condition builds) and you’re set. None of the meta condition builds have good Protection access either (though remember the Last Gasp trait on Necros).

The way to beat condi builds is always to keep the fight as short as possible. Time is their ally, not yours.

idk why ppl want to condition to do damage like power builds
power build = power + cirt chnce + crit damage to do good damage with and also protection and weekness make your damage very veeeeery low .

in the other hand just ask your self what condition need to do damage ?
condition damage + crit conditiotn + condition crit damage ?
no nooooooo
its only need ( condition stats) to do damage more than power builds atm
i dont talk about only pvp look at wvw
its full of dire players that running condition + toughness + vitality and one shot evry one with 30k HP and 3.5k armor and protection not work on them and also weekness

if someone running power toughness vitality build he cant kill and thing
but condition can run any stats with condition and he dont lose any damage

is this normal for u ? and normal for arena net ?

I can’t believe there are people defending condis.

Conditions are not only strong themselves, with sigils they’re even stronger. HoT traits ESPECIALLY make them stronger. Added on top of that, with some builds you can spike them instantly as if you were playing a power build. Warrior mace primal burst is a good example. Conditions can be mitigated through resistance and regen, but resistance can be stripped and regen is just worthless. Cleansing only works once and in the blink of an eye, they’re reapplied. There’s barely, if any, a reliable counter or a method of immunity against them. Before anyone responds, yes, I know about condi conversions and skills like defiant stance, but that’s it. Conditions don’t have a reliable counter to them.

Power builds on the other hand, can be….blocked, blinded, inflicted with weakness, mitigated with protection, invuln AND negation . I mean come on! It’s out of control! There’s a LOT of condi BS right now. Nobody can deny it.

squall.4691:

idk why ppl want to condition to do damage like power builds
power build = power + cirt chnce + crit damage to do good damage with and also protection and weekness make your damage very veeeeery low .

in the other hand just ask your self what condition need to do damage ?
condition damage + crit conditiotn + condition crit damage ?
no nooooooo
its only need ( condition stats) to do damage more than power builds atm
i dont talk about only pvp look at wvw
its full of dire players that running condition + toughness + vitality and one shot evry one with 30k HP and 3.5k armor and protection not work on them and also weekness

if someone running power toughness vitality build he cant kill and thing
but condition can run any stats with condition and he dont lose any damage

is this normal for u ? and normal for arena net ?

Thing is, conditions dont do the same dmg as power.

JTGuevara.9018:

Power builds on the other hand, can be….blocked, blinded, inflicted with weakness, mitigated with protection, invuln AND negation . I mean come on! It’s out of control! There’s a LOT of condi BS right now. Nobody can deny it.

And power is still prevalent, which says a lot about balance. Anyway, the reason condi exists is because all the power hate, which makes some power builds unviable and forces the use of condi buidls to kill things.

I’m curious if the few people here play the same game as me.

• The only class that should condi burst is a Warrior. Because he’s a Warrior. Esthetically, he should.
• Condi Mesmers has always been a 1v1 build. Been that way since the dawn of time.
• Necro’s elite spec gave them more AoE condis to put out, essentially making them the “burn guardians” from prepatch. Only ‘bursty’ if hit in his Reap form.

Every other condi are condition coverages that supplements the above classes. Even when there’s a full condi team, only these three classes are a threat.

So what class do you play and how are yall having issues with this?

JTGuevara.9018:

I can’t believe there are people defending condis.

Conditions are not only strong themselves, with sigils they’re even stronger. HoT traits ESPECIALLY make them stronger. Added on top of that, with some builds you can spike them instantly as if you were playing a power build. Warrior mace primal burst is a good example. Conditions can be mitigated through resistance and regen, but resistance can be stripped and regen is just worthless. Cleansing only works once and in the blink of an eye, they’re reapplied. There’s barely, if any, a reliable counter or a method of immunity against them. Before anyone responds, yes, I know about condi conversions and skills like defiant stance, but that’s it. Conditions don’t have a reliable counter to them.

Power builds on the other hand, can be….blocked, blinded, inflicted with weakness, mitigated with protection, invuln AND negation . I mean come on! It’s out of control! There’s a LOT of condi BS right now. Nobody can deny it.

Stupid posts like this really kitten me off.

You are saying condi attacks cant be blinded or blocked???

Lets see the differences….

Vs power you got weakness and protection

Vs condi you got reaistance and cleanse

Looks fair to me….

If youfail to avoid an attack and get hit. vs power you get full damage, if its condi you get time after to deal with the damage.

Milan.9035:

JTGuevara.9018:

I can’t believe there are people defending condis.

Conditions are not only strong themselves, with sigils they’re even stronger. HoT traits ESPECIALLY make them stronger. Added on top of that, with some builds you can spike them instantly as if you were playing a power build. Warrior mace primal burst is a good example. Conditions can be mitigated through resistance and regen, but resistance can be stripped and regen is just worthless. Cleansing only works once and in the blink of an eye, they’re reapplied. There’s barely, if any, a reliable counter or a method of immunity against them. Before anyone responds, yes, I know about condi conversions and skills like defiant stance, but that’s it. Conditions don’t have a reliable counter to them.

Power builds on the other hand, can be….blocked, blinded, inflicted with weakness, mitigated with protection, invuln AND negation . I mean come on! It’s out of control! There’s a LOT of condi BS right now. Nobody can deny it.

Stupid posts like this really kitten me off.

You are saying condi attacks cant be blinded or blocked???

Lets see the differences….

Vs power you got weakness and protection

Vs condi you got reaistance and cleanse

Looks fair to me….

If youfail to avoid an attack and get hit. vs power you get full damage, if its condi you get time after to deal with the damage.

I think it’s really hard to just throw a few things in the void and compare the two like that. The bottom line is that balancing is not easy, and that no matter what position you take in how things are balanced in the game, you have to take into consideration an enormous amount of variables. The thing is this: Anet needs condi builds. It gives the lesser skilled players something to use and still do decent. In other words, the learning curve for condi builds should be very low, and the skill ceiling should also be low. For power, the learning curve is high and the skill ceiling is also high. From a balance and money making point of view, it all makes sense. For example: look at Call of Duty- MW2. Remember the noob tube? Grenade launcher with one man army? It takes much less skill to use the grenade launcher, but it’s very hard to do very well with it.

The thing I’m really getting at is this: condi builds have a high skill ceiling and a low learning curve. The skill ceiling for condis needs to be lower. (Whatever that entails.)

The reason it needs to be lower is simply because you can run an amulet with 900 toughness attached to it and still pump out the same numbers that any other condition amulet has. And the argument I’ve received from someone is that “900 toughness is barely anything.” Ha. Ha. Hah. haha.

So, condis can stay how they are. That’s fine. But something needs to change. More access to resistance, and more access to boon stripping could work. So that if someone wanted to be a condi build and still do very well, they would have to sacrifice sustain for boon stripping because of the increased amounts of resistance in all of the professions. Or they could keep their sustain and hope that the other player hasn’t built their build for more resistance. (Here in comes the lower skill ceiling part.)

Thoughts?..

Your whole post is based on a false assumption. How hard or easy a build is to play has absolutely nothing to do with power or condi.

If you want something changed, maybe start providing reasonable arguments instead of the same wrong arguments over and over again.

Milan.9035:

JTGuevara.9018:

I can’t believe there are people defending condis.

Conditions are not only strong themselves, with sigils they’re even stronger. HoT traits ESPECIALLY make them stronger. Added on top of that, with some builds you can spike them instantly as if you were playing a power build. Warrior mace primal burst is a good example. Conditions can be mitigated through resistance and regen, but resistance can be stripped and regen is just worthless. Cleansing only works once and in the blink of an eye, they’re reapplied. There’s barely, if any, a reliable counter or a method of immunity against them. Before anyone responds, yes, I know about condi conversions and skills like defiant stance, but that’s it. Conditions don’t have a reliable counter to them.

Power builds on the other hand, can be….blocked, blinded, inflicted with weakness, mitigated with protection, invuln AND negation . I mean come on! It’s out of control! There’s a LOT of condi BS right now. Nobody can deny it.

Stupid posts like this really kitten me off.

You are saying condi attacks cant be blinded or blocked???

Lets see the differences….

Vs power you got weakness and protection

Vs condi you got reaistance and cleanse

Looks fair to me….

If youfail to avoid an attack and get hit. vs power you get full damage, if its condi you get time after to deal with the damage.

except outside of warriors resistence only lasts 2-3 seconds on 30+ cds
cleansed as well have 20s+cd so out the window that argument went

JTGuevara.9018:

I can’t believe there are people defending condis.

Conditions are not only strong themselves, with sigils they’re even stronger. HoT traits ESPECIALLY make them stronger. Added on top of that, with some builds you can spike them instantly as if you were playing a power build. Warrior mace primal burst is a good example. Conditions can be mitigated through resistance and regen, but resistance can be stripped and regen is just worthless. Cleansing only works once and in the blink of an eye, they’re reapplied. There’s barely, if any, a reliable counter or a method of immunity against them. Before anyone responds, yes, I know about condi conversions and skills like defiant stance, but that’s it. Conditions don’t have a reliable counter to them.

Power builds on the other hand, can be….blocked, blinded, inflicted with weakness, mitigated with protection, invuln AND negation . I mean come on! It’s out of control! There’s a LOT of condi BS right now. Nobody can deny it.

this pretty much

Milan.9035:

JTGuevara.9018:

I can’t believe there are people defending condis.

Conditions are not only strong themselves, with sigils they’re even stronger. HoT traits ESPECIALLY make them stronger. Added on top of that, with some builds you can spike them instantly as if you were playing a power build. Warrior mace primal burst is a good example. Conditions can be mitigated through resistance and regen, but resistance can be stripped and regen is just worthless. Cleansing only works once and in the blink of an eye, they’re reapplied. There’s barely, if any, a reliable counter or a method of immunity against them. Before anyone responds, yes, I know about condi conversions and skills like defiant stance, but that’s it. Conditions don’t have a reliable counter to them.

Power builds on the other hand, can be….blocked, blinded, inflicted with weakness, mitigated with protection, invuln AND negation . I mean come on! It’s out of control! There’s a LOT of condi BS right now. Nobody can deny it.

Stupid posts like this really kitten me off.

You are saying condi attacks cant be blinded or blocked???

Lets see the differences….

Vs power you got weakness and protection

Vs condi you got reaistance and cleanse

Looks fair to me….

If youfail to avoid an attack and get hit. vs power you get full damage, if its condi you get time after to deal with the damage.

Spvp, Conditions are supposedly fine, because anet’s idea of balancing is removing amulets. Where as in WvW, things like Trailblazer and dire exist along with food and perplexity runes.

Most Power Specs have to sacrifice defensive stats in order to do acceptable damage. And that full damage gets cut down to really small portions When people have decent toughness, + Protection/% damage mitgation, Weakness. a form of good regeneration. For instance, If I crit(Which is RNG) for say 4k on a attack against someone with protection, that gets knocked down to 2680. Even less if you have weakness and it procs on the crit for a glancing blow, so against weakness and protection the result of your crit 1340 total. Not very much is it? Also zerker/ power classes like that are squishy against the same type of build(maybe aside from scrapper). So factor in blocks, and and other active and passive defense, your damage becomes trivial.

Condi damage, ignores armor, there’s 5 possible sources of damage, Torment, Bleed, Confusion, Burn, Poison. it really only takes one one stat to make work, duration is to make it even sticker increasing in DPS. If you say it needs crit, you only need crit if you have traits that apply a additional stack of said condition. Condition removal is fine but it’s not as reliable, depending on the number of conditions present. if you have 5 conditions on you, and you have a cleanse that only removes 2 at a time, you’re not guaranteed to remove the conditions you want to remove, and most condition cleanses that clear a large amount normally have a moderate or high Cooldown. Yeah resistance exists, but it’s only really seen on Revs and Warriors, and even then it’s strip able. Revs resistance also comes with a high energy cost. Conditions will never do 0 damage just because you can cleanse them, they will always do damage, because if you’re clearing them the instant you get them on you, then you’re not going to be able to remove them when they pile on to get big stacks. Outside of condi clear and resistance, there’s only DD dash that reduces it by 10%, Scrapper’s Adaptive armor which is 20% i think, and Jalis Elite which is 50% for 6s. That’s it. More classes should either get access to resistance or buff condition clearing, or allow more things like protection and weakness to affect condition ticks, or add a stat to reduce condition duration or damage on you. Before you say Vitality is there, know that Vitality also helps against power as well, while toughness does not affect conditions whatsoever.

Yea, lets add even more (passive) defense and sustain, bunkers aren’t strong enough :/

Maybe we should just remove the abilitiy to deal any dmg at all, so nobody has to die …