Guild Wars 2

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Your whole post is based on a false assumption. How hard or easy a build is to play has absolutely nothing to do with power or condi.

If you want something changed, maybe start providing reasonable arguments instead of the same wrong arguments over and over again.

Oh, it completely does. Go on, try vipers or rampagers and let me know how it feels to get melted without the 900 toughness.

Or you can actually address the suggestions I proposed in the paragraph instead of saying “YOU FALSE, BOI!”

JTGuevara.9018:

I can’t believe there are people defending condis.

Conditions are not only strong themselves, with sigils they’re even stronger. HoT traits ESPECIALLY make them stronger. Added on top of that, with some builds you can spike them instantly as if you were playing a power build. Warrior mace primal burst is a good example. Conditions can be mitigated through resistance and regen, but resistance can be stripped and regen is just worthless. Cleansing only works once and in the blink of an eye, they’re reapplied. There’s barely, if any, a reliable counter or a method of immunity against them. Before anyone responds, yes, I know about condi conversions and skills like defiant stance, but that’s it. Conditions don’t have a reliable counter to them.

Power builds on the other hand, can be….blocked, blinded, inflicted with weakness, mitigated with protection, invuln AND negation . I mean come on! It’s out of control! There’s a LOT of condi BS right now. Nobody can deny it.

You’ve clearly never played a condi build…

Because blocks, invuln, condi cleanse, resistance, and more affect us too. If you use projectiles, god help you because of all the projectile hate.

There’s more counters to condi than there are for power. You can spike a person with a power build. Spike them with condi (which I do, 11 stacks of burning on my engineer), and they have enough time to react and cleanse it. Playing the slow game? Druids and eles say kitten you.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

So many false statements …

Lucred.1802:

Not to mention how many of the really nasty condi’s are ground-targeted AoE.

Necro’s marks and scepter 2, warrior lb burst skill … that’s all. Marks don’t deal that much dmg anymore after chill nerf and the firefield from warrior isn’t too hard to avoid.

Lucred.1802:

Or a full-bunker DH running through a team fight crapping traps everywhere. Or a trap ranger doing the same. Condi is both as damaging as power, and capable of 5-person aoe, and is generally able to be used from a safe(ish) distance instead of melee range.

A full bunker dh isn’t going to do any mentionable dmg at all. If dh traps hurt, it is a power dps build. Traps are not ranged/ground-targeted btw. Trap ranger is even less viable than power dh – for good reasons.

Lucred.1802:

And then when you consider how few condi cleanses there are and how many of them are on long (20sec+) cooldowns compared to blocks/reflects (since the ground targeted aoe ignores reflect and at least some of the blocks)….I hope I’m making my point.

Most classes have frequent access to condi cleanse, not only every 20 seconds. And you don’t have to cleanse all condis, nor are you supposed to be able to do so. Also ground targeted aoe is not the main source of condis.

Lucred.1802:

As an example of how powerful condi is (yes this is cherry-picking): Warrior’s bow skill Pin Down—approximately 600 direct damage (non-crit) but applies 6 stacks of bleed, which then tick (6 stacks combined) for 2k, and with the current meta build lasts for 12 seconds. 1 skill that will do approximately 1/6th-1/8th of a player’s health per second (considering most pvp builds have between 13k and 18k health) or 24k over its full duration, cannot be blocked or dodged once applied, and is on a relatively short cooldown. Guaranteed kill if not cleansed from 1 ability. Also persists through downing, so it can both down and kill in 1 application. Find me any power-based attack that doesn’t require extensive setup (thus discounting GS power warr or mesmer shatters) that’s that powerful.

6 stacks of bleeds are ticking for about 600/s, not 2k. On wanderer/krait setup the total dmg is about 12k (more with might/vuln, but definitely not 24k, less with rabid or carrion amulet or a different rune). It will take 22s to deal that much dmg from this single skill. More than enough time to heal or cleanse. It has 25s cd which is quite long compared to many other important dmg skills and it has a distinctive animation and reasonable casttime, which makes it not that hard to dodge/block/evade/reflect or blind it. And if you get hit you can still cleanse.

An afk zerk ele or thief is the only think you can kill with Pin Down alone.

I could understand complaints about Skull Grinder, but Pin Down is a pretty balanced skill and a good example of how skills should be. Powerful, but with reasonable counterplay.

Shala.8352:

The reason revenants prefer to play power rather than condi is that the condi side has less evades/stun breaks/mobility. Revenant is only class that if going for condi, has to go full melee and lose all his mobility.

Similar is actually true for other classes too, not only for rev. Condi engi loses the defensive skills from hammer, condi ranger loses mobility and/or ranged dmg, condi warrior loses mobility – just some examples.

—any extra, basically unavoidable damage is too much damage when it’s so easy to apply (such as dropping signets and scepter2 in a team fight on point, considering how large they are and how the longest cooldown is ~8 seconds with most of them 4-5 seconds).

-and the firefield from warrior isn’t hard to avoid
Unless you’re in a team fight. It’s pretty big, though admittedly not as big as a necro mark or DH trap.

-full bunker DH isn’t going to be doing noticeable damage
Bull. Just straight bull. It’s not going to be immediately lethal like a power DH, but when their traps are on low cooldowns and cover an entire point, and it takes so ridiculously long to kill a bunker (any bunker), dropping them in a team fight is all they seem to do—run around crapping traps.

Same deal with a full-trap druid. I know they’re worthless over-all but they can be a humongous pain during team fights.

-most classes have frequent access to condi cleanse
Herald has NO condi removal in current meta.

Warrior has NO condi removal in current meta.

Necro has condi transfer galore.

Tempest has (I think) pulsing condi cleanse (10 seconds, 1 condition) no on-demand cleanse.

Druid has pulsing condi cleanse (10 seconds, 1 condition) and I think they have 1 on-demand cleanse, unsure of cooldown

Thief has NO condi removal in current meta.

Scrapper has ONE cleanse (all conditions) on a 40 second cooldown.

DH has ONE cleanse (2 conditions) on a 20 second cooldown.

I have no idea what chrono has, I won’t ever play one.

So that’s 3 of 8 with NO CLEANSE AT ALL, 1 (maybe 2) with a full cleanse on a long cooldown, and 2 single-condi cleanses on mid-long cooldowns.

Sure seems like that’s really not a whole lot of cleansing considering the condi classes can apply between 2 and 6 per second.

edit
Forgot to address warrior’s Pin Down.
I play one. A lot. I routinely see Pin Down’s bleeds ticking for 1000-1200 in actual combat. If you’re seeing it do 600, you must fight a lot of people with protection on and you’re buffless.

Here’s a screenshot of me attacking the target golem with NO buffs on me and NO debuffs on it. Add might on me and vuln on the target and it’s going to go up, a LOT.

Lucred.1802:

Warrior has NO condi removal in current meta.
Necro has condi transfer galore.
Tempest has (I think) pulsing condi cleanse (10 seconds, 1 condition) no on-demand cleanse.
Druid has pulsing condi cleanse (10 seconds, 1 condition) and I think they have 1 on-demand cleanse, unsure of cooldown

Thief has NO condi removal in current meta.

Scrapper has ONE cleanse (all conditions) on a 40 second cooldown.

DH has ONE cleanse (2 conditions) on a 20 second cooldown.

I have no idea what chrono has, I won’t ever play one.

So that’s 3 of 8 with NO CLEANSE AT ALL, 1 (maybe 2) with a full cleanse on a long cooldown, and 2 single-condi cleanses on mid-long cooldowns.

Corrections:

Thief: Multi condi cleanses depending on build. Shadowstep alone removes 3 — D/P thief has the least condi counter, with only shadowstep (some traits/heals can remove crippling condis). S/D can remove extras per return skill. Staff thief can remove via dodge trait. I also believe stolen ectoplasm (from mesmers) can help cleanse a condi or it provides resistance.

Warrior: Condi cleanse isn’t quite as necessary with high amounts of resistance. Theoretically you can chain resistance for approx 20 secs with a down time of another 20 secs or so. You don’t need condi cleanse if you ignore condis in the first place.

I don’t know Tempest, Mesmer, or Herald, so I can’t speak for them. That said, I have seen more than “no or few” condi cleanses — I’ve seen tempests completely remove about 5 condis with one skill, on top of overcharging water and a few other skills. Herald builds can do something similar, removing several condis at once. I also don’t know druid that well, but I have seen their celestial form remove all condis and heal to full health.

Scrapper: You forget purge gyro. 2 condi cleanses every 3 secs for 15 seconds total. On about a 25 sec cooldown. Serious condi hate. And don’t forget elixir gun 5, and any elixirs used heal 1 condition on top of that (including the auto-triggered elixirs at 75% and 25% health).

DH: The jumpy skill (forget the name, F2), removes 3 condis, smite condition removes 1, and the healing trap skill removes 1. Admittedly, they’re all on long cooldowns. But it’s more than just one condi cleanse.

The Game Slayer.7632:

Oh, it completely does. Go on, try vipers or rampagers and let me know how it feels to get melted without the 900 toughness.

Actually i already tried viper necro and viper/rampager ranger and yes, it sucks. Rabid ranger sucks too btw. I also played marauder druid a lot and guess what? No extra toughness, but tons of defensive skills and traits and some extra vitality, so overall pretty decent survivability and the dmg wasn’t that bad either.

I never said, toughness does nothing, i said, toughness alone doesn’t do much, which is true. Otherwise everyone would take high toughness amulets with offensive traits instead of marauder with defensive traits. Traits and skills matter much more.

About your suggestion – buffing access to resistance and boon removal adds just more powercreep and limits build diversity even more – the last thing, the game needs.

Lucred.1802:

—any extra, basically unavoidable damage is too much damage when it’s so easy to apply (such as dropping signets and scepter2 in a team fight on point, considering how large they are and how the longest cooldown is ~8 seconds with most of them 4-5 seconds).

All common builds can easily apply dmg. Scrapper for example can just spam hammer 1-5 on point and deal more dmg than necro with marks.

Lucred.1802:

-and the firefield from warrior isn’t hard to avoid
Unless you’re in a team fight. It’s pretty big, though admittedly not as big as a necro mark or DH trap.

The firefield is bigger than traps or marks, which makes it easy to see and easy to step outside of it.

Lucred.1802:

-full bunker DH isn’t going to be doing noticeable damage
Bull. Just straight bull. It’s not going to be immediately lethal like a power DH, but when their traps are on low cooldowns and cover an entire point, and it takes so ridiculously long to kill a bunker (any bunker), dropping them in a team fight is all they seem to do—run around crapping traps.

1. If you die to bunker dh you are doing something wrong.
2. DH traps deal only power dmg, so i don’t get what it has to do with this discussion about condis.

Lucred.1802:

Herald has NO condi removal in current meta.

1 condition removed on legend swap (10s cd) and 2 condis removed with staff 4 (15s cd). Soft CC remove in Shiro form.

Lucred.1802:

Warrior has NO condi removal in current meta.

3 condis removed on burst skill use/hit every few seconds and 1 condi removed every weapon swap (5s cd) + high access to resistance. Warrior has great condi defense.

Lucred.1802:

Tempest has (I think) pulsing condi cleanse (10 seconds, 1 condition) no on-demand cleanse.

1 condi everytime they get hit above 75% health (1s cd)), 1 condi with every shout, 3 condis with focus 3 (16s cd), eventually 1 condi when they gain regen – i probably forgot something. Tempest has a lot of condi remove, not only for himself but also for allies.

Lucred.1802:

Druid has pulsing condi cleanse (10 seconds, 1 condition) and I think they have 1 on-demand cleanse, unsure of cooldown

1 condition every 10s from signet (potential aoe full cear if used active, long cd though and can kill the pet), full clear every 12-15 seconds with druidic clarity, some more with seed of live.

Lucred.1802:

Thief has NO condi removal in current meta.

Shadowstep (3 condis, 50s cd), Signet of Agility (30c cd), Soft CC remove on dodge. If necessary they could take a trait that removes 1 condi everytime they evade an attack (1s cd), they just don’t need it.

Lucred.1802:

Scrapper has ONE cleanse (all conditions) on a 40 second cooldown.

Scrapper has cleanse on elixier use (and they use a lot of elixier skills, most with less than 20s cd), passive condi convertion every 15s, cleanse on heal skill, and possibly 20% reduced condi dmg from trait. Overall not bad.

Lucred.1802:

DH has ONE cleanse (2 conditions) on a 20 second cooldown.

DPS dh removes 2 condis from meditation every 16s, 2 every heal skill use, 2 from virtue (26s cd). Not sure about bunker dh, but i guess, it has more condi remove.

Lucred.1802:

I have no idea what chrono has, I won’t ever play one.

Removes condis on shatter and heal skill.

Lucred.1802:

edit
Forgot to address warrior’s Pin Down.
I play one. A lot. I routinely see Pin Down’s bleeds ticking for 1000-1200 in actual combat. If you’re seeing it do 600, you must fight a lot of people with protection on and you’re buffless.

Here’s a screenshot of me attacking the target golem with NO buffs on me and NO debuffs on it. Add might on me and vuln on the target and it’s going to go up, a LOT.

Protection doesn’t do anything againt condis. Of course might and vuln can increase the dmg, but more than 1k is very unlikely, 2k as you have stated impossible. Your screenshot says 573 btw, so even less than those 600. Pin Down is balanced. I already said why.

Tbh you have very little knowlegde about the game and should definitely learn before making suggestions about how to balance the game.

Vagrant.7206:

Lucred.1802:

Warrior has NO condi removal in current meta.
Necro has condi transfer galore.
Tempest has (I think) pulsing condi cleanse (10 seconds, 1 condition) no on-demand cleanse.
Druid has pulsing condi cleanse (10 seconds, 1 condition) and I think they have 1 on-demand cleanse, unsure of cooldown

Thief has NO condi removal in current meta.

Scrapper has ONE cleanse (all conditions) on a 40 second cooldown.

DH has ONE cleanse (2 conditions) on a 20 second cooldown.

I have no idea what chrono has, I won’t ever play one.

So that’s 3 of 8 with NO CLEANSE AT ALL, 1 (maybe 2) with a full cleanse on a long cooldown, and 2 single-condi cleanses on mid-long cooldowns.

Corrections:

Thief: Multi condi cleanses depending on build. Shadowstep alone removes 3 — D/P thief has the least condi counter, with only shadowstep (some traits/heals can remove crippling condis). S/D can remove extras per return skill. Staff thief can remove via dodge trait. I also believe stolen ectoplasm (from mesmers) can help cleanse a condi or it provides resistance.

Warrior: Condi cleanse isn’t quite as necessary with high amounts of resistance. Theoretically you can chain resistance for approx 20 secs with a down time of another 20 secs or so. You don’t need condi cleanse if you ignore condis in the first place.

I don’t know Tempest, Mesmer, or Herald, so I can’t speak for them. That said, I have seen more than “no or few” condi cleanses — I’ve seen tempests completely remove about 5 condis with one skill, on top of overcharging water and a few other skills. Herald builds can do something similar, removing several condis at once. I also don’t know druid that well, but I have seen their celestial form remove all condis and heal to full health.

Scrapper: You forget purge gyro. 2 condi cleanses every 3 secs for 15 seconds total. On about a 25 sec cooldown. Serious condi hate. And don’t forget elixir gun 5, and any elixirs used heal 1 condition on top of that (including the auto-triggered elixirs at 75% and 25% health).

DH: The jumpy skill (forget the name, F2), removes 3 condis, smite condition removes 1, and the healing trap skill removes 1. Admittedly, they’re all on long cooldowns. But it’s more than just one condi cleanse.

Thief, Herald, and Warr have a “condi cleanse” in the respect that they can remove movement effecting conditions (immob/slow/chill with shadowstep/riposting shadows/[almost every skill] respectively). They can do nothing about damaging effects (bleed/burn/poison/confusion/etc). So while technically correct, I feel it’s irrelevant to the argument which is why I excluded them since we’re talking about damage.

Staff thief (daredevil) is not current meta, D/P thief is, and as you say they have the least (shadowstep, which only removes immob/slow).

Purge gyro is not current meta for Scrapper. and you’ll rarely if ever see it used in sPVP above Sapphire (unless they change a lot of stuff with the rebalance).

For DH, I’d missed the trait “Smiter’s Boon”, which will remove 1 condition for every healing skill used. Apologies on that. I don’t PvP much on my DH and was going off memory. If you’re seeing more than 1 condi come off at a time, they’re spamming heals while lagging.

Looks like I missed a couple traits for current meta on Auramancer (which I don’t play, I play Fresh Air, which doesn’t take some of them). They remove 1 condition when swapping auras and 1 when applying regen, and Diamond Skin means no condi will stick when above 75% health. I guess that’s technically not a cleanse but we’ll count it.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

About your suggestion – buffing access to resistance and boon removal adds just more powercreep and limits build diversity even more – the last thing, the game needs.

Power creep is not really an issue so long as it is the core classes that are buffed in said manner. And limiting build diversity? Not really.. I mean, please, go on to explain further. I’m open to the possibility of just being completely ignorant to whatever other factors that you might be seeing.

But all this does is add more diversity, tbh. If boon stripping is buffed at the same time that resistance prevalence is increased, you have two game mechanics that balance each other out, while fixing the problem of bunker condi dealers. Huh, get that. “Balance.” You make the condi builds choose boon stripping over sustain, and soon you see many more options opening up. Hard decisions in making your build optimal is what should be strived for when you balance your game.

Of course, I’d like to think that increased access to resistance should warrant a small nerf or two, such as “Damaging conditions are ineffective.” instead of all conditions. The increase in boon hate just might not be enough to warrant increased prevalence of resistance alone. But that’s what testing is for. There’s always more ways around changes like that.

Smiter’s Boon is now 2 conditions, FYI. Or, it should be, since Smite Condition is 2 conditions removed.

Thief, Herald, and Warr have a “condi cleanse” in the respect that they can remove movement effecting conditions (immob/slow/chill with shadowstep/riposting shadows/[almost every skill] respectively). They can do nothing about damaging effects (bleed/burn/poison/confusion/etc). So while technically correct, I feel it’s irrelevant to the argument which is why I excluded them since we’re talking about damage.

Shadow return and Infiltrator’s return remove condis for thief. As does the dodge trait. Period, full stop. There is also another trait that reduces the effectiveness of cripples, and withdraw also removes crippling conditions. Those are treated differently.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Return
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator's_Return
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Escapist's_Absolution

are not the same as

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Withdraw
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Don't_Stop

Also, as I said, warrior resistance is better than a condi cleanse, generally speaking. You don’t even experience the effects of the condi while under resistance. And another poster mentioned that bursting removes condis as well.

Purge gyro is not current meta for Scrapper. and you’ll rarely if ever see it used in sPVP above Sapphire (unless they change a lot of stuff with the rebalance).

Actually, it is. 1 of the top 5 players on the leaderboards runs with purge gyro. How do I know? I asked him, because he outperformed my condi engineer in a 1v1. So I now run it too, and it’s quite good.

And I’ve seen other engineers using purge gyro frequently too. Those that don’t tend to die when a condi class comes in swinging (particularly necro).

Milan.9035:

JTGuevara.9018:

I can’t believe there are people defending condis.

Conditions are not only strong themselves, with sigils they’re even stronger. HoT traits ESPECIALLY make them stronger. Added on top of that, with some builds you can spike them instantly as if you were playing a power build. Warrior mace primal burst is a good example. Conditions can be mitigated through resistance and regen, but resistance can be stripped and regen is just worthless. Cleansing only works once and in the blink of an eye, they’re reapplied. There’s barely, if any, a reliable counter or a method of immunity against them. Before anyone responds, yes, I know about condi conversions and skills like defiant stance, but that’s it. Conditions don’t have a reliable counter to them.

Power builds on the other hand, can be….blocked, blinded, inflicted with weakness, mitigated with protection, invuln AND negation . I mean come on! It’s out of control! There’s a LOT of condi BS right now. Nobody can deny it.

Stupid posts like this really kitten me off.

You are saying condi attacks cant be blinded or blocked???

Lets see the differences….

Vs power you got weakness and protection

Vs condi you got reaistance and cleanse

Looks fair to me….

If youfail to avoid an attack and get hit. vs power you get full damage, if its condi you get time after to deal with the damage.

It LOOKS fair? lmao

Don’t make me laugh!

Like I said, resistance can be stripped and also, corrupted. With cleanses, you have to build and trait for them to get benefits, and unless you’re a tempest/druid it’s STILL not enough. Cleanses can’t keep up with condis getting pumped out like clockwork.

Also, conditions CANNOT be blocked. Blocks only block direct damage. Blinds can be a nuisance to condi builds, but they totally shut down power builds.

I also forgot to mention, to add to my post above for what you can do against power builds. You can add freakin’ AEGIS to that list as well lol.

Vagrant.7206:

JTGuevara.9018:

I can’t believe there are people defending condis.

Conditions are not only strong themselves, with sigils they’re even stronger. HoT traits ESPECIALLY make them stronger. Added on top of that, with some builds you can spike them instantly as if you were playing a power build. Warrior mace primal burst is a good example. Conditions can be mitigated through resistance and regen, but resistance can be stripped and regen is just worthless. Cleansing only works once and in the blink of an eye, they’re reapplied. There’s barely, if any, a reliable counter or a method of immunity against them. Before anyone responds, yes, I know about condi conversions and skills like defiant stance, but that’s it. Conditions don’t have a reliable counter to them.

Power builds on the other hand, can be….blocked, blinded, inflicted with weakness, mitigated with protection, invuln AND negation . I mean come on! It’s out of control! There’s a LOT of condi BS right now. Nobody can deny it.

You’ve clearly never played a condi build…

Because blocks, invuln, condi cleanse, resistance, and more affect us too. If you use projectiles, god help you because of all the projectile hate.

There’s more counters to condi than there are for power. You can spike a person with a power build. Spike them with condi (which I do, 11 stacks of burning on my engineer), and they have enough time to react and cleanse it. Playing the slow game? Druids and eles say kitten you.

Oh, yes I have.

Blocks and invulns may affect you condi users in the short-term, but conditions STILL go through them. With cleanses and resistance, there are costs and sacrifices to your build to get use out of them JUST to survive. If you’re focused by two reapers, no cleanses and resistance are going to help you! Sometimes conditions can even seep through resistance! When the effect pulses, there’s an instant when a condition can be applied. Conditions can also be appllied through sigils, passive and active traits and runes.

In my experience there are three things games should not implement because of how frustrated it makes the player base.

1. DoT
2. Chained cc
3. Second life (this is invulnerability for x amount of seconds or second life/self resurrecting excessive healing.

With cleanses, you have to build and trait for them to get benefits, and unless you’re a tempest/druid it’s STILL not enough. Cleanses can’t keep up with condis getting pumped out like clockwork.

With cleanses and resistance, there are costs and sacrifices to your build to get use out of them JUST to survive.

This is the same with mitigation to power damage. You have to build for it and most times it ends up not being enough either. The way you phrase this saying you both dont have enough cleanses sounds like a) condi should never do damage and b) you should never die to condi. Physical damage gets dropped everywhere and more often than not you wont have enough heals/dodges/other mitigation to avoid it all, especially fighting two people. So why should condi be any different? Its not extra …its an alternative damage type.

Also, conditions CANNOT be blocked. Blocks only block direct damage. Blinds can be a nuisance to condi builds, but they totally shut down power builds.
I also forgot to mention, to add to my post above for what you can do against power builds. You can add freakin’ AEGIS to that list as well lol.

but conditions STILL go through them.

Again this is wrong. almost all condi attacks register a physical hit so the conditions can be applied. You can block and blind, even aegis them. I dont see the point here. If you are reffering to how they tick once applied by a hit that could have been avoided then….the damage has already been applied. Blocks and blinds dont stop damage that has already been applied. Thats like saying you get hit by a power skill for 4k but since you started blocking after being hit HP is returned to you…You have already taken the hit/damage..its just being applied over the next X seconds giving you time to do something about it.

Conditions can also be appllied through sigils, passive and active traits and runes.

and power damage cant?

Sigmoid.7082:

With cleanses, you have to build and trait for them to get benefits, and unless you’re a tempest/druid it’s STILL not enough. Cleanses can’t keep up with condis getting pumped out like clockwork.

With cleanses and resistance, there are costs and sacrifices to your build to get use out of them JUST to survive.

This is the same with mitigation to power damage. You have to build for it and most times it ends up not being enough either. The way you phrase this saying you both dont have enough cleanses sounds like a) condi should never do damage and b) you should never die to condi. Physical damage gets dropped everywhere and more often than not you wont have enough heals/dodges/other mitigation to avoid it all, especially fighting two people. So why should condi be any different? Its not extra …its an alternative damage type.

Also, conditions CANNOT be blocked. Blocks only block direct damage. Blinds can be a nuisance to condi builds, but they totally shut down power builds.
I also forgot to mention, to add to my post above for what you can do against power builds. You can add freakin’ AEGIS to that list as well lol.

but conditions STILL go through them.

Again this is wrong. almost all condi attacks register a physical hit so the conditions can be applied. You can block and blind, even aegis them. I dont see the point here. If you are reffering to how they tick once applied by a hit that could have been avoided then….the damage has already been applied. Blocks and blinds dont stop damage that has already been applied. Thats like saying you get hit by a power skill for 4k but since you started blocking after being hit HP is returned to you…You have already taken the hit/damage..its just being applied over the next X seconds giving you time to do something about it.

Conditions can also be appllied through sigils, passive and active traits and runes.

and power damage cant?

Again, my point stands. Condi builds have more options than power builds. Go and visit wvw and see what I mean.

Blocks shield against direct damage. The conditions that were blocked were only because they were part of the direct damage. Conditions can still be inflicted in many other ways WITH THE BLOCK IN PLACE using on-swap sigils, transferrence, unblockable attacks and boon corruption. Blind doesn’t do much. Aegis can be corrupted and stripped.

The Game Slayer.7632:

Power creep is not really an issue so long as it is the core classes that are buffed in said manner. And limiting build diversity? Not really.. I mean, please, go on to explain further. I’m open to the possibility of just being completely ignorant to whatever other factors that you might be seeing.

The problem with powercreep is, that it reduces counterplay and requires counterbuilding. The stronger traits and skills are, the less important player skill becomes. It forces you to take certain traits and skill and there is no way you can create a working build with different traits and skills. That’s why it limits diversity and creates unfun fights that are desided more by build than by player actions.

And that’s especially true for resistance, which gives 100% immunity. It is compareable to things like endure pain and signet of stone, stuff that has short duration and long cd for good reasons. There is no way a condi build would be able to win by outplaying a resistance spamming build without massive boon removal. It wouldn’t open up more options, you won’t be able to not choose the boon remove if you want a working build.
Now i get that this is what you want to achieve – forcing condi builds to take the boon remove instead of defense. And then all condibuilds would end up like builds, that already have to give up (too much) defense – builds like condi engi or trap ranger for example – they won’t be viable anymore. A certain amount of defense is absolutely mandatory, especially for condi builds which can’t burst as well as power builds. And the meta condi builds are not really bunkers and already have less sustain than for example scrapper or druid.

Now i would agree that for example condi warrior has too much sustain and dmg in one build. But this can be fixed by nerfing the particular build. The same applies to everything op. You don’t have to screw up a whole mechanic and tons of weak builds, to tone down a few overperforming things.

I don’t really care, if meta builds get nerfed. Actually i would like to see a lot of things nerfed – including some condi builds of course. But all those “nerf condi threads” doesn’t focus on some actual op things, they basically suggest to make condi builds absolute garbage in general, often based on completely false assumptions (like this nonsense about non-existent condi remove on meta builds or all those unblockable/unevadeable condis). And even though i usually don’t play condi myself, i like to experiment and try out “unusual” builds, which of course includes condi and hybrid builds. And i don’t want those unviable builds to become even worse, that’s pretty much the only reason, why i keep defending condis in threads like this.

It’s the dire/trailblazer/rabid that makes condi build ridiculous.

let me tell the truth.

most of people who plays condi build says power build is easy but when they actually play power build they get melted in less than 10 sec.

example on power mesmer 15k~16k hp and less than 2k armor

example on condi mesmer 20k+ hp and around 3k armor

isnt it kittening obvious which 1 is more forgiving/easier to play?

power build needs to sacrifice some of defensive stats to be effective and 1 or 2 mistake and u are pretty much kittened

condi builds? just stack tough/vitality/condi = done u are tanky as kitten and u can still stack so much condi bomb

It’s much easier to maximize condition damage because you can essentially just stack one stat: Condition Damage.

With power, you have to get power, ferocity, and precision. Marauder does help bridge that gap but with Dire, you get condition damage, toughness, and vitality which helps so much in survivability through attrition.

“Proof” is not taking a single profession and showing that one of its condition builds are better than one of its power builds.

Wait, is ppl here talking about WvW roaming? wtf?

The Game Slayer.7632:

I remember the reason I stopped playing this game. I might do another break. Knowing anet they’ll buff condis, buff sustain, and nerf power. If this balance patch looks like that, I’m done.

Really, does anyone else feel the same about these rampant condi bunkers?

I’m with you brother. If the patch hits Tuesday and there aren’t significant nerfs to condi I’m out again and I’m only back 5 days.

That said, and let’s be real here, this is casual wars 2 and not every class has a viable faceroll condi build. If anything I think there will be more buffs to cond which is pretty depressing.

#makezerkcoolagain

Power Healing Bunker: Tempest
Power Healing Bruiser: Druid
Power Bruiser: Scrapper, DH
Power Damage: Rev, Thief
Condition Bunker: Reaper
Condition Bruiser: Warrior
Condition Damage: Mesmer

Seems balanced to me, though Druid seeds should remove 2 conditions, instead of one.

Again, my point stands. Condi builds have more options than power builds. Go and visit wvw and see what I mean.

Why this is spvp.

Blocks shield against direct damage. The conditions that were blocked were only because they were part of the direct damage.

So with your first line you admit you can block conditions because almost all condition attacks register a physical hit. Only a very few dont but they are either unblockable anyways or are a field, which cant be blocked but you can run out of it.

Conditions can still be inflicted in many other ways WITH THE BLOCK IN PLACE using on-swap sigils, transferrence, unblockable attacks and boon corruption. Blind doesn’t do much. Aegis can be corrupted and stripped.

On swap sigils, namely geo and hydromancy, register a physical hit and can be blocked. They register in the combat log as either frozen burst or earth ring.

Transferance…the sigil is on hit thus can be blocked unless used with an unblockable attack via traits or utility. Deathly swarm needs a hit to transfer and will miss/fail if it doesnt cause blind to be transferred. It also stops tracking if it misses and will disappear if blocked. so no bounces. Asking the other transfers not to work is like saying others classes removal skills should have a chance at failing since if you check necro don’t have a bunch of condition removal it’s mostly transfers.

Blind does a lot to both damage types, this is undisputable. Blinding a skill that applies 1 stack of something is like blinding an auto attack, same as blinding a skill that applied multiple conditions is like blinding a harder hitting ability. Ive also explained how it can cause condi transfers to fail above.

Aegis can be corrupted sure but corruption is truly random, unlike removal. If you have any more than the [insert skill limit here] of boons on you, boons are so common now you likely will, then there is a chance it wont be. In the case of necro scepter 3 and traited signets if the corruption fails to corrupt aegis the hit is blocked.

Power damage has unblockable attacks as well so this is a moot point and thus CAN BE APPLIED WITH BLOCK IN PLACE.

Your arguments just looks like you are blindly hating on conditions.

The Game Slayer.7632:

Milan.9035:

JTGuevara.9018:

I can’t believe there are people defending condis.

Conditions are not only strong themselves, with sigils they’re even stronger. HoT traits ESPECIALLY make them stronger. Added on top of that, with some builds you can spike them instantly as if you were playing a power build. Warrior mace primal burst is a good example. Conditions can be mitigated through resistance and regen, but resistance can be stripped and regen is just worthless. Cleansing only works once and in the blink of an eye, they’re reapplied. There’s barely, if any, a reliable counter or a method of immunity against them. Before anyone responds, yes, I know about condi conversions and skills like defiant stance, but that’s it. Conditions don’t have a reliable counter to them.

Power builds on the other hand, can be….blocked, blinded, inflicted with weakness, mitigated with protection, invuln AND negation . I mean come on! It’s out of control! There’s a LOT of condi BS right now. Nobody can deny it.

Stupid posts like this really kitten me off.

You are saying condi attacks cant be blinded or blocked???

Lets see the differences….

Vs power you got weakness and protection

Vs condi you got reaistance and cleanse

Looks fair to me….

If youfail to avoid an attack and get hit. vs power you get full damage, if its condi you get time after to deal with the damage.

I think it’s really hard to just throw a few things in the void and compare the two like that. The bottom line is that balancing is not easy, and that no matter what position you take in how things are balanced in the game, you have to take into consideration an enormous amount of variables. The thing is this: Anet needs condi builds. It gives the lesser skilled players something to use and still do decent. In other words, the learning curve for condi builds should be very low, and the skill ceiling should also be low. For power, the learning curve is high and the skill ceiling is also high. From a balance and money making point of view, it all makes sense. For example: look at Call of Duty- MW2. Remember the noob tube? Grenade launcher with one man army? It takes much less skill to use the grenade launcher, but it’s very hard to do very well with it.

The thing I’m really getting at is this: condi builds have a high skill ceiling and a low learning curve. The skill ceiling for condis needs to be lower. (Whatever that entails.)

The reason it needs to be lower is simply because you can run an amulet with 900 toughness attached to it and still pump out the same numbers that any other condition amulet has. And the argument I’ve received from someone is that “900 toughness is barely anything.” Ha. Ha. Hah. haha.

So, condis can stay how they are. That’s fine. But something needs to change. More access to resistance, and more access to boon stripping could work. So that if someone wanted to be a condi build and still do very well, they would have to sacrifice sustain for boon stripping because of the increased amounts of resistance in all of the professions. Or they could keep their sustain and hope that the other player hasn’t built their build for more resistance. (Here in comes the lower skill ceiling part.)

Thoughts?..

atm power build consider as much lower skill ceiling and low learning cure with all the passive abilities – see engi, warrior , ranger

the only high curve are power thief and mesmer

condi seem easy but good players need to learn and watch the timing as in power build. when to burst and to use key skills combo. especially when condi are ticking and not burst direct dmg in 1 sec. you need to learn the enemy cd’s and if you fail to do so you wont be able to kill just to put some condi on your enemy when in 2 sec his cleanse are ready to use…

also in pvp they is not dire amulet . so stop posting answer which belong to wvw thread

condi atm are balance beside small adjustment to warrior resistance and sustain

power build need some ticks here and there like power necro, mesmer and some nerf with sustain and passive like druid and engi and DH and warrior

that’s all

They need to bring back the condi stack limit and nerf them by 20% at least.

They also need the old stability back because you can’t rely on it anymore, specially in WvW.
Finally they need to remove taunt, it’s annoying as hell in WvW.

Oh and they need to buff IceBow for pvp, 50% would feel about right.

Oh, yes I have.
Blocks and invulns may affect you condi users in the short-term, but conditions STILL go through them. With cleanses and resistance, there are costs and sacrifices to your build to get use out of them JUST to survive. If you’re focused by two reapers, no cleanses and resistance are going to help you! Sometimes conditions can even seep through resistance! When the effect pulses, there’s an instant when a condition can be applied. Conditions can also be appllied through sigils, passive and active traits and runes.

Most condition attacks can be blocked/blinded. Only a select few are unblockable, and those are typically AoE condis such as wells (which can be avoided). And power builds have their own unblockable attacks too, which are often CC’s.

And the whole point of condi is it continues to deal damage over time, not that it instantly disappears the second you use some kind of temporary invulnerability skill.

And your complaint about sacrifices to your build? Yeah, we have to do it for power builds too. Part of running any build that lasts longer than a few seconds is you have to counter other people’s attacks — that includes both condi and power. I don’t take elixir S or Tool Kit for my entertainment. The current war power meta (Axe/Shield and GS) is an example of a power build that requires a crazy kind of counter to have a chance to stand against (chained CC, high damage bursts, quick getaways). How is that not more unbalanced than your typical condi build?

condi seem easy but good players need to learn and watch the timing as in power build. when to burst and to use key skills combo. especially when condi are ticking and not burst direct dmg in 1 sec. you need to learn the enemy cd’s and if you fail to do so you wont be able to kill just to put some condi on your enemy when in 2 sec his cleanse are ready to use…

This. So much this.

An effective condi player requires good timing. If I dump all my condis on a necro with transferrance, I’m as good as dead. If I dump my condis on a berserker stance war, I’ve wasted all my damage. The only time I see condi dumps work well is when an enemy’s cooldowns are active or condi dumping on thieves. Otherwise, I have to watch what the other player is doing and time my conditions appropriately, as well as mitigate their damage in the meantime.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Power creep is not really an issue so long as it is the core classes that are buffed in said manner. And limiting build diversity? Not really.. I mean, please, go on to explain further. I’m open to the possibility of just being completely ignorant to whatever other factors that you might be seeing.

The problem with powercreep is, that it reduces counterplay and requires counterbuilding. The stronger traits and skills are, the less important player skill becomes. It forces you to take certain traits and skill and there is no way you can create a working build with different traits and skills. That’s why it limits diversity and creates unfun fights that are desided more by build than by player actions.

And that’s especially true for resistance, which gives 100% immunity. It is compareable to things like endure pain and signet of stone, stuff that has short duration and long cd for good reasons. There is no way a condi build would be able to win by outplaying a resistance spamming build without massive boon removal. It wouldn’t open up more options, you won’t be able to not choose the boon remove if you want a working build.
Now i get that this is what you want to achieve – forcing condi builds to take the boon remove instead of defense. And then all condibuilds would end up like builds, that already have to give up (too much) defense – builds like condi engi or trap ranger for example – they won’t be viable anymore. A certain amount of defense is absolutely mandatory, especially for condi builds which can’t burst as well as power builds. And the meta condi builds are not really bunkers and already have less sustain than for example scrapper or druid.

Now i would agree that for example condi warrior has too much sustain and dmg in one build. But this can be fixed by nerfing the particular build. The same applies to everything op. You don’t have to screw up a whole mechanic and tons of weak builds, to tone down a few overperforming things.

I don’t really care, if meta builds get nerfed. Actually i would like to see a lot of things nerfed – including some condi builds of course. But all those “nerf condi threads” doesn’t focus on some actual op things, they basically suggest to make condi builds absolute garbage in general, often based on completely false assumptions (like this nonsense about non-existent condi remove on meta builds or all those unblockable/unevadeable condis). And even though i usually don’t play condi myself, i like to experiment and try out “unusual” builds, which of course includes condi and hybrid builds. And i don’t want those unviable builds to become even worse, that’s pretty much the only reason, why i keep defending condis in threads like this.

One has to assume that in order to gain increased amounts of resistance, that the player with the resistance is also sacrificing a lot as well. Obviously it would be ridiculous to have resistance spamming builds with little to none opportunity cost.

If it did turn out to be too much, resistance itself could be nerfed as well. (See my suggestion in previous paragraph.) There are a lot of ways around power creep.

But you do bring up some fair points about builds themselves being too powerful, instead of condi’s overall. I too, think some of the people in this thread are a little too short sighted with the false assumptions you were talking about, but that’s not really something you have to pay too much attention to. A smart developer reading the thread would ignore that much more than some of the other comments here.

What can I say? I’m just salty that no matter what, I can’t 1v1 a condi necro on my engineer no matter what build I use on him. I guess condi necros need more nerfs, eh? Or I could just be terrible. Hahaha.

messiah.1908:

also in pvp they is not dire amulet . so stop posting answer which belong to wvw thread

condi atm are balance beside small adjustment to warrior resistance and sustain

power build need some ticks here and there like power necro, mesmer and some nerf with sustain and passive like druid and engi and DH and warrior

that’s all

We are far, far away from condi balance and Power Necro is the perfect example of this.

Rezzet.3614:

JTGuevara.9018:

I can’t believe there are people defending condis.

Conditions are not only strong themselves, with sigils they’re even stronger. HoT traits ESPECIALLY make them stronger. Added on top of that, with some builds you can spike them instantly as if you were playing a power build. Warrior mace primal burst is a good example. Conditions can be mitigated through resistance and regen, but resistance can be stripped and regen is just worthless. Cleansing only works once and in the blink of an eye, they’re reapplied. There’s barely, if any, a reliable counter or a method of immunity against them. Before anyone responds, yes, I know about condi conversions and skills like defiant stance, but that’s it. Conditions don’t have a reliable counter to them.

Power builds on the other hand, can be….blocked, blinded, inflicted with weakness, mitigated with protection, invuln AND negation . I mean come on! It’s out of control! There’s a LOT of condi BS right now. Nobody can deny it.

this pretty much

He isn’t 100% wrong but there’s a lot of inaccuracies here. Especially the no counter to conditions part… a single cleanse is a direct counter to conditions..

Conditions are a non-issue in higher competitive play but soloQ are not nearly adamant on being team players. As most players in this thread are soloQ players, no wonder there’s a lot of condi hate going around.

The other issues in SoloQ are stackable classes. If there’s 2+ Necros, an Ele and/or condi Warrior, then the opposing team are in for trouble. Stacking Necros will deliver so much AoE condi damages back to back that all the cleanses in the game can’t keep up. Of course this also assumes the Necros and team are competent players themselves. Sometimes matchmaking will place a low mmr Necro on that team due to “mmr balances” when it’s really making the team stronger.

We’re at the mercy of matchmaking.. a system that needs to be 10x smarter than it already is.

pierwola.9602:

messiah.1908:

also in pvp they is not dire amulet . so stop posting answer which belong to wvw thread

condi atm are balance beside small adjustment to warrior resistance and sustain

power build need some ticks here and there like power necro, mesmer and some nerf with sustain and passive like druid and engi and DH and warrior

that’s all

We are far, far away from condi balance and Power Necro is the perfect example of this.

Perfect example of what? btw,believe me when I say that power reaper(which I miss), is way more braindead than condi reaper, you just rely on procs deleting the enemy

Sigmoid.7082:

-snip-

Just want to throw this out there, but all of a Necro’s condition transfer skills prioritize Blind on the transfer. I can’t speak to Arcane Theivery (the only non-Necro transfer skill), but no Necro transfer can miss due to Blind. It does, however, potentially stop something more dangerous from being transferred.

Saiyan.1704:

Rezzet.3614:

JTGuevara.9018:

I can’t believe there are people defending condis.

Conditions are not only strong themselves, with sigils they’re even stronger. HoT traits ESPECIALLY make them stronger. Added on top of that, with some builds you can spike them instantly as if you were playing a power build. Warrior mace primal burst is a good example. Conditions can be mitigated through resistance and regen, but resistance can be stripped and regen is just worthless. Cleansing only works once and in the blink of an eye, they’re reapplied. There’s barely, if any, a reliable counter or a method of immunity against them. Before anyone responds, yes, I know about condi conversions and skills like defiant stance, but that’s it. Conditions don’t have a reliable counter to them.

Power builds on the other hand, can be….blocked, blinded, inflicted with weakness, mitigated with protection, invuln AND negation . I mean come on! It’s out of control! There’s a LOT of condi BS right now. Nobody can deny it.

this pretty much

He isn’t 100% wrong but there’s a lot of inaccuracies here. Especially the no counter to conditions part… a single cleanse is a direct counter to conditions..

Conditions are a non-issue in higher competitive play but soloQ are not nearly adamant on being team players. As most players in this thread are soloQ players, no wonder there’s a lot of condi hate going around.

The other issues in SoloQ are stackable classes. If there’s 2+ Necros, an Ele and/or condi Warrior, then the opposing team are in for trouble. Stacking Necros will deliver so much AoE condi damages back to back that all the cleanses in the game can’t keep up. Of course this also assumes the Necros and team are competent players themselves. Sometimes matchmaking will place a low mmr Necro on that team due to “mmr balances” when it’s really making the team stronger.

We’re at the mercy of matchmaking.. a system that needs to be 10x smarter than it already is.

i had several fight versus 2 necro warrior ele and mesmer. most of them condi meta.
i switch to my support mesmer and 80% win rate. null field with time warp with CS with signet share boon and all the condi are irrelevant while my team boost with quickness and might and protection killing them 1 by 1….
learn to counter the meta…. or just split the necro from mid fight

messiah.1908:

also in pvp they is not dire amulet . so stop posting answer which belong to wvw thread

condi atm are balance beside small adjustment to warrior resistance and sustain

power build need some ticks here and there like power necro, mesmer and some nerf with sustain and passive like druid and engi and DH and warrior

that’s all

Lol

this guy plays condi d/d thief all he does is spam death blossom and dodge

and talks like condi actually req skills

and yes pvp has wanderer’s amulet and rabid which is quite same as dire

MidoriMarch.8067:

messiah.1908:

also in pvp they is not dire amulet . so stop posting answer which belong to wvw thread

condi atm are balance beside small adjustment to warrior resistance and sustain

power build need some ticks here and there like power necro, mesmer and some nerf with sustain and passive like druid and engi and DH and warrior

that’s all

Lol

this guy plays condi d/d thief all he does is spam death blossom and dodge

and talks like condi actually req skills

and yes pvp has wanderer’s amulet and rabid which is quite same as dire

you mean this guy as me? i dont remember me playing in ranked or unranked dd condi build….

wanderer and rabid had no vitality. only 1 defense state no both. so or vitality with carrion or toughness with rabid . or power with sinister .
so hardly the same if you dot have 9k hp missing….. LOL

and if you have trouble with DD thief just bring some cleanse as he got mainly 2 conditions which are bleed and poison so easy to cleanse ….

JTGuevara.9018:

Blocks shield against direct damage. The conditions that were blocked were only because they were part of the direct damage. Conditions can still be inflicted in many other ways WITH THE BLOCK IN PLACE using on-swap sigils, transferrence, unblockable attacks and boon corruption. Blind doesn’t do much. Aegis can be corrupted and stripped.

It’s funny how ppl confuse dmg with abilities
I got skill A, that deals direct dmg unblockable.
I got skill B, that deals condition dmg blockable

By your logic skill A is less skillful, since it can go through blocks. Both require to press 1 button…

As for boonstripping: ever fought a Power-shatter? I would think it is better at stripping boons than condition shatter

And lastly: I have to take inspiration (defensive line; condition cleanse/heal since it helps against both power and conditions(soft cc included)) on my mesmer independent of the build. I also have to take either Chrono or duelling to generate illusions. After these I can choose to go condition(illusion line) or power (domination line). As you see it is a false statement to think that all condition builds can take defensive traits and power just has to go all out on dmg. On a side note I want to add, that my hybrid mesmer (main stat condition) runs with a sinister amulet (16k) and therefore has less hp than marauder(21k) or equal berseker(16k) power shatter.

These threads would be more interesting if condi-hating players didn’t open a new one each week to regurgitate the same blatantly false statements every time. But I guess they would open new threads seeing as how they hate reading all the logical replies that debunk their false “facts” on the other threads.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Sigmoid.7082:

-snip-

Just want to throw this out there, but all of a Necro’s condition transfer skills prioritize Blind on the transfer. I can’t speak to Arcane Theivery (the only non-Necro transfer skill), but no Necro transfer can miss due to Blind. It does, however, potentially stop something more dangerous from being transferred.

I was wrong on two but deathly swarm will still miss if it doesn’t transfer blind.

Krysard.1364:

Perfect example of what? btw,believe me when I say that power reaper(which I miss), is way more braindead than condi reaper, you just rely on procs deleting the enemy

Perfect example of how they “balanced” the whole condi system around one singel thing, CONDI DAMAGE.

pierwola.9602:

Krysard.1364:

Perfect example of what? btw,believe me when I say that power reaper(which I miss), is way more braindead than condi reaper, you just rely on procs deleting the enemy

Perfect example of how they “balanced” the whole condi system around one singel thing, CONDI DAMAGE.

So a condi build is the perfect example of something, cause I still dont know what do you try to say with “condi system balanced around condi dmg”