Guild Wars 2

I am talking about conditions in general on any build geared towards condi dmg, they are too potent.

There is no fun in fighting someone who has high defensive stats that can run circles on a point and spam conditions that ignore all your defenses, it is just NOT fun to play against. conditions builds are the most passive way to play and are frustrating to play against.

The not fun’nes is even more pronounced in wvw with dire gear and no drawback to siting in stealth while the world bleeds.

NOT FUN!!

Your total playing time and experience from PvP ?
When you dying on poor bleed because you don’t use condition remove abilities -> maybe start eat some food with -40% duration + Rune of Hoelbrak -20% condition duration.

But this is so hard for you right ?

BTW: every single utility spell on my warrior and guardian remove condition + passive traits or F abilities. Players who use condition DMG build in WvWvW is only food for other “normal” PvPers

Evilek.5690:

Your total playing time and experience from PvP ?
When you dying on poor bleed because you don’t use condition remove abilities -> maybe start eat some food with -40% duration + Rune of Hoelbrak -20% condition duration.

But this is so hard for you right ?

BTW: every single utility spell on my warrior and guardian remove condition + passive traits or F abilities. Players who use condition DMG build in WvWvW is only food for other “normal” PvPers

yea sure. Try to beat condi mesmer with your food hoelbrack and skill condi removal.
The only reason condi damage is not used so much in wvwvw is that people will run away from you before you can actualy kill them.

I agree with the topic opener, condi is not fun and totaly no skilled, condi shoult be a support to the main dps, but actualy is making the condi user concentrating only on his defence cuz he doesnt really need to land damage, condi will do that for him during time.

Fully agree with the OP, condi spec are kitten and along with stealth, they represent the most broken mechanics in this game.

It’s several times easier to run a condi build than a power build, nobody can deny it, you can stack toughness, healing power and you’re good to go.

The damage bypass armor and can be literally spammed with impunity, multiple condis attached to low CD skills and so on

Evilek.5690:

eat some food with -40% duration

Please teach us how to use foods in PvP.

Wrong forum I think.

Honestly the condition hate again? I’m getting awfully tired of this.
I can already see al the arguments comming:

condi damage is passive: Sure sigil of fire/air does not exist, neither does chill of death,… .

My armor has no influence: my damage modifiers have no influence.

But protection does not affect condition damage: but resistance does not affect power damage .

Only defensive stats for full damage:
Here is a simple comparison between 2 auto attacks guardian scepter and necromancer scepter.

The guardian scepter scales 0.666 with power but we have to factor in defense and weapon strength and attack speed. The attack speed is o,8 , average scepter weapon strength is 1000 and a guardians base defense is 2271 resulting in a true scaling of 0,36657859973579920739762219286658 dps/power.
necromancer scepter has 3 second auto attack chain inflicting 10 ticks of bleed and 4 of poison all scaling 0.06 dps/tick resulting in a 0,28 dps/condition damage. While poison may bring utility to the auto attack, guardian scepter has a higher range.

Condi’s don’t need to do anything to land damage: outside of a few runes you still have to land skills to apply damage this counts for both power and conditions.

Condi’s have lower cooldowns:
fastest no auto condi applier : shrapnel grenade 5 sec cooldown.
fastest no auto damage dealer: ligthning strike or mighty blow 5 sec cooldown.

Condi can do damage through auto attacks: so does power.

Did I miss some?

Tim.6450:

Honestly the condition hate again? I’m getting awfully tired of this.
I can already see al the arguments comming:

condi damage is passive: Sure sigil of fire/air does not exist, neither does chill of death,… .

My armor has no influence: my damage modifiers have no influence.

But protection does not affect condition damage: but resistance does not affect power damage .

Only defensive stats for full damage:
Here is a simple comparison between 2 auto attacks guardian scepter and necromancer scepter.

The guardian scepter scales 0.666 with power but we have to factor in defense and weapon strength and attack speed. The attack speed is o,8 , average scepter weapon strength is 1000 and a guardians base defense is 2271 resulting in a true scaling of 0,36657859973579920739762219286658 dps/power.
necromancer scepter has 3 second auto attack chain inflicting 10 ticks of bleed and 4 of poison all scaling 0.06 dps/tick resulting in a 0,28 dps/condition damage. While poison may bring utility to the auto attack, guardian scepter has a higher range.

Condi’s don’t need to do anything to land damage: outside of a few runes you still have to land skills to apply damage this counts for both power and conditions.

Condi’s have lower cooldowns:
fastest no auto condi applier : shrapnel grenade 5 sec cooldown.
fastest no auto damage dealer: ligthning strike or mighty blow 5 sec cooldown.

Condi can do damage through auto attacks: so does power.

Did I miss some?

Just one that I can think of:
“Power can be blocked/blinded/dodged, etc.”
So can conditions.

The problem with conditions is lack of defense, its completely absurd.

People come here and say “well just cleanse it” or “use resistance”.

Cleansing it is not an effective solution to mitigate it, condi hits full punch when you are hit, sure you cleanse it but condi builds are geared towards giving you a ton of conditions all the time, so you can’t out cleanse what you suffer. You will run out of cleanse while your opponent doesn’t run out of condi they can give you.

Resistance is also a very weak argument, a lot of classes don’t even have access to resistance so it is a meaningless argument to say “hey just pop resistance”.

So at the end of the day what do you have:

how do you tank power? Toughness, vitality and healing.

How do you tank condi? You don’t, it is an impossible struggle. You can somewhat gear towards vitality and healing, but then in comes a condi that reduces 33% of one of your “defenses” and you got nothing to protect you against it.

So either you kill your opponent before the timer runs out or you die, that is it. Timer here meaning the time it takes for him to hit you until you run out of means to cleanse the conditions, then they just go sky high on the stacks and you will die. These specially true to some of the high condi dealing classes, particularly engi, thief and mesmer (IMO).

We need a stat that is able to reduce the effectiveness of an opponent condi damage, i.e., a direct counter to the condi damage they apply. This way people are able to gear towards that and have a better chance of survival.

foste.3098:

I am talking about conditions in general on any build geared towards condi dmg, they are too potent.

There is no fun in fighting someone who has high defensive stats that can run circles on a point and spam conditions that ignore all your defenses, it is just NOT fun to play against. conditions builds are the most passive way to play and are frustrating to play against.

The not fun’nes is even more pronounced in wvw with dire gear and no drawback to siting in stealth while the world bleeds.

NOT FUN!!

Here is a best advice:

" Don’t waste your time on what could have been "

that is all.

Azel.4786:

The problem with conditions Power is lack of defense, its completely absurd.

People come here and say “well just cleanse block it” or “use resistance invulnerability”.

Cleansing Blocking it is not an effective solution to mitigate it, condi power hits full punch when you are hit, sure you cleanse block it but condi power builds are geared towards giving you a ton of conditions damage all the time, so you can’t out cleanse block what you suffer. You will run out of cleanse blocks while your opponent doesn’t run out of condi*damage* they can give you.

Resistance invulnerability is also a very weak argument, a lot of classes don’t even have access to resistance invulnerability so it is a meaningless argument to say "hey just pop resistance invulnerability ".

So at the end of the day what do you have:

how do you tank power condi? Cleansing, vitality and healing.

How do you tank condi power? You don’t, it is an impossible struggle. You can somewhat gear towards toughness, vitality and healing, but then in comes a condi trait that effectively reduces 20% of one of your “defenses” and you got nothing to protect you against it.

So either you kill your opponent before the timer runs out or you die, that is it. Timer here meaning the time it takes for him to hit you until you run out of means to cleanse the conditions*block their attacks*, then they just go sky high on the stacks burst and you will die. These specially true to some of the high condi *burst dealing classes, particularly engi war, thief and mesmer (IMO).

Well, that was fun. Not that difficult, either. Fact is, mindless cleansing, just like mindless blocking, will get you killed. If you’re fighting a condition build, you have many more opportunities to react and defend yourself. Every bit of active defense that works against a Power build is equally effective against a condition build, but cleanses and Resistance (yes, Resistance is rare) are additional bits of active defense that direct damage does not have.

I think the elephant in the room that’s being overlooked is the AOE condition application on instant and near-instant cast abilities.

Lately, I’ve been playing a trap condi ranger. 20k+ in condition damage (also does aoe, knockdown, cripple, and is unblockable) using a grand total of 1.5 seconds in cast time during combat? Check. Can be prepped before a fight? Check.

The risk/reward ratio for using a condition build and just spamming aoe condis is pretty funny. Entire groups of players melt before they can react. Condition fields (and some condi application skills) have very low cooldowns, near instant cast and make it so that cleanses are useless. There’s no “right” time to cleanse conditions when they’re being rapidly applied every second.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Azel.4786:

The problem with conditions Power is lack of defense, its completely absurd.

People come here and say “well just cleanse block it” or “use resistance invulnerability”.

Cleansing Blocking it is not an effective solution to mitigate it, condi power hits full punch when you are hit, sure you cleanse block it but condi power builds are geared towards giving you a ton of conditions damage all the time, so you can’t out cleanse block what you suffer. You will run out of cleanse blocks while your opponent doesn’t run out of condi*damage* they can give you.

Resistance invulnerability is also a very weak argument, a lot of classes don’t even have access to resistance invulnerability so it is a meaningless argument to say "hey just pop resistance invulnerability ".

So at the end of the day what do you have:

how do you tank power condi? Cleansing, vitality and healing.

How do you tank condi power? You don’t, it is an impossible struggle. You can somewhat gear towards toughness, vitality and healing, but then in comes a condi trait that effectively reduces 20% of one of your “defenses” and you got nothing to protect you against it.

So either you kill your opponent before the timer runs out or you die, that is it. Timer here meaning the time it takes for him to hit you until you run out of means to cleanse the conditions*block their attacks*, then they just go sky high on the stacks burst and you will die. These specially true to some of the high condi *burst dealing classes, particularly engi war, thief and mesmer (IMO).

Well, that was fun. Not that difficult, either. Fact is, mindless cleansing, just like mindless blocking, will get you killed. If you’re fighting a condition build, you have many more opportunities to react and defend yourself. Every bit of active defense that works against a Power build is equally effective against a condition build, but cleanses and Resistance (yes, Resistance is rare) are additional bits of active defense that direct damage does not have.

Guess it’s easy when you completely ignore the arguments huh?

Let me explain in more detail to you:

Invulnerability: Which class doesn’t have it again?

Blocking: Oh right, some classes don’t have this one…

But let’s focus on the main argument shall we, for I really liked your inclusion of toughness, that one is gold.

So when the main argument I post is the lack of a direct counter stat against condi damage you use the fact that there is one for power in yours? Please explain to me again how that does not undermine your argument….

And on burst builds, I never mentioned that I don’t think there are some that do absurd damage. There are and there needs to be some fixes to that, e.g., Mesmer burst is just insane right now and so too is Warrior rampage elite.

Azel.4786:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Azel.4786:

The problem with conditions Power is lack of defense, its completely absurd.

People come here and say “well just cleanse block it” or “use resistance invulnerability”.

Cleansing Blocking it is not an effective solution to mitigate it, condi power hits full punch when you are hit, sure you cleanse block it but condi power builds are geared towards giving you a ton of conditions damage all the time, so you can’t out cleanse block what you suffer. You will run out of cleanse blocks while your opponent doesn’t run out of condi*damage* they can give you.

Resistance invulnerability is also a very weak argument, a lot of classes don’t even have access to resistance invulnerability so it is a meaningless argument to say "hey just pop resistance invulnerability ".

So at the end of the day what do you have:

how do you tank power condi? Cleansing, vitality and healing.

How do you tank condi power? You don’t, it is an impossible struggle. You can somewhat gear towards toughness, vitality and healing, but then in comes a condi trait that effectively reduces 20% of one of your “defenses” and you got nothing to protect you against it.

So either you kill your opponent before the timer runs out or you die, that is it. Timer here meaning the time it takes for him to hit you until you run out of means to cleanse the conditions*block their attacks*, then they just go sky high on the stacks burst and you will die. These specially true to some of the high condi *burst dealing classes, particularly engi war, thief and mesmer (IMO).

Well, that was fun. Not that difficult, either. Fact is, mindless cleansing, just like mindless blocking, will get you killed. If you’re fighting a condition build, you have many more opportunities to react and defend yourself. Every bit of active defense that works against a Power build is equally effective against a condition build, but cleanses and Resistance (yes, Resistance is rare) are additional bits of active defense that direct damage does not have.

Guess it’s easy when you completely ignore the arguments huh?

Let me explain in more detail to you:

Invulnerability: Which class doesn’t have it again?

Blocking: Oh right, some classes don’t have this one…

But let’s focus on the main argument shall we, for I really liked your inclusion of toughness, that one is gold.

So when the main argument I post is the lack of a direct counter stat against condi damage you use the fact that there is one for power in yours? Please explain to me again how that does not undermine your argument….

And on burst builds, I never mentioned that I don’t think there are some that do absurd damage. There are and there needs to be some fixes to that, e.g., Mesmer burst is just insane right now and so too is Warrior rampage elite.

Invulnerability is absent on half the professions: Necromancer, Thief, Warrior (though they do have an “immortality” skill, as well as combining skills to mimic invulnerability), and Ranger (only have direct damage immunity), soon to be 5 (Revenant has none, unless it’s on the elite spec). Blocking is likewise absent on Necro and Thief (though Smokescreen does block projectiles).

Yes, Toughness reduces direct damage, but numerous traits, runes, and sigils also multiply it. The same cannot be said for conditions, which get no multiplier via those things. Until recently, they had none at all.

Given every bit of active defense that applies to Power attacks also applies to conditions, and then conditions also have two more counterplay methods, one of which you, personally, don’t even have to do (cleansing is easily done by allies), and yeah, whining that conditions are somehow inherently broken is showing only that you hate them.

And I think I know why: conditions don’t give an obvious moment you can point to and say “I screwed up here.” Those moments are very much there, but because the damage is so spread out over time, as well as frequently being masked by other applications of the same condition, it’s easy to miss if you don’t know exactly what you’re looking for.

Condition application should always be able to out-pace cleansing. Otherwise, there’s no point to applying the conditions in the first place. You can see this futility very easily in WvW groups, where condition builds are downright unwanted entirely because they accomplish nothing in zerg fights. For the game to function properly, any offense must be greater than its associated defense. If it’s not, we end up with either riskless fights (no fun), or neverending fights (also no fun).

foste.3098:

I am talking about conditions in general on any build geared towards condi dmg, they are too potent.

Give me examples of such builds, and I’ll give you some ways to counter them. Every build has weaknesses.

There is no fun in fighting someone who has high defensive stats that can run circles on a point and spam conditions that ignore all your defenses, it is just NOT fun to play against.

I don’t know what “defenses” you happen to be talking about, but if they aren’t condition clearing and evasive tactics like blind/invuln/block, then of course a condi build will ignore them.

conditions builds are the most passive way to play and are frustrating to play against.

This is a factually incorrect statement. Dps builds tend to have more burst AND sustained dmg over time. When you think about it this way, there’s more reward to be had from going power if you’re skilled. That’s a big if for most of the gw2 player base.

Most condition builds are low risk low reward. If they trait for defensive stats, they won’t have the capabilities of bursting you. They are allotted a few more mistakes, but with the OP dmg scale right now, this isn’t by much. Additionally, they’ll have lower health pools. If they happen to be running a bursty condition spec, then they’re as easy to defeat as a typical glass dps build since they share the same squishiness.

TL:DR – l2p