Guild Wars 2

As long as elite spec can pick anything else than other elite, it always will be unbalanced compared to core profession.
To balance non-elite aspect of profession, they need something core that has to be separated from elite, something that is equipped at same slot as currently elite trait line is (bottom) and probably should be mandatory for non-elite.
So, for example: core Necro would be forced to use Soul Reaping, while Reaper couldn’t equip SR as one of his trait lines.

Thoughts?

My thought is that the “core” profession doesn’t need to be balanced with the “elite” profession, personally. It’s all just the profession. If you don’t have access to all of the content because you didn’t purchase the expansion, then it’s like any other MMO: you are behind.

At least you can still play with those who own the expansion, unlike basically every other MMO.

Well i am not even sure that Anet even wants to balance elite spec vs core spec. I get the feeling thier long term goal is to include more elite specs and balance elite spec vs elite spec.

Cogbyrn.7283:

My thought is that the “core” profession doesn’t need to be balanced with the “elite” profession, personally. It’s all just the profession. If you don’t have access to all of the content because you didn’t purchase the expansion, then it’s like any other MMO: you are behind.

At least you can still play with those who own the expansion, unlike basically every other MMO.

No, no, you don’t get the point. I have nowhere said that people should do fine without HoT…

Its completly different matter, for example, many Rangers dislike Druid (read: they dislike support/bunker aspect of it) and they would like to be competitive without its mechanics , I’ve same feeling about Necro<->Reaper, where I’m just forced to use RS over DS, just because RS is superior to DS as is Reaper superior to anything else than Spite/SoulReaping, even if I heavily dislike Reaper and its “melee” shroud.

At least in the case of Necro, ANet can buff the base class without changing Reaper. This is done by changing the Death Shroud skills. Guardian is harder to do so with the virtue actives, but still theoretically possible.

Can’t do that at all with 7/9 elite specializations we currently have, since they don’t lose access to any particular thing.

Until i find an elite spec that really challenges my core Mesmer or Engineer I do not see a point in comparison. The elites are shiny and new but as you learn the mechanics they are essentially not much stronger or weaker than all the builds in the ether. In fact pvp (for me at least) has gotten more face roll and so many players play the same exact builds. too easy to counter. Not saying their aren’t balance issues it just seems over blown to me at this point.

Morwath.9817:

Cogbyrn.7283:

My thought is that the “core” profession doesn’t need to be balanced with the “elite” profession, personally. It’s all just the profession. If you don’t have access to all of the content because you didn’t purchase the expansion, then it’s like any other MMO: you are behind.

At least you can still play with those who own the expansion, unlike basically every other MMO.

No, no, you don’t get the point. I have nowhere said that people should do fine without HoT…

Its completly different matter, for example, many Rangers dislike Druid (read: they dislike support/bunker aspect of it) and they would like to be competitive without its mechanics , I’ve same feeling about Necro<->Reaper, where I’m just forced to use RS over DS, just because RS is superior to DS as is Reaper superior to anything else than Spite/SoulReaping, even if I heavily dislike Reaper and its “melee” shroud.

Sorry for missing the point initially, I’m just ultra tired of seeing core vs. elite threads, so I misinterpreted your intent. That’s my bad.

However, I also think diversity in competitive balance in an MMO is a pipe dream. Everyone is going to want their preferred spec/style to be the competitive/meta style. Some rangers really want to be competitive with non-Druid, while others are probably thrilled that they are competitive with bunker/support Druid.

If you heavily dislike Reaper and its melee shroud, don’t use it, especially if aesthetic/stylistic fun is your top priority. If winning is your top priority, then using Reaper shouldn’t feel bad, since it is the sPvP competitive spec at the moment.

Then again, I’m severe in my opinion on sPvP balance. I think each profession should have 1 spec that they shine competitively with, and if they have it, they should be glad they have something. Honestly, if they really want to take this game to a competitive level, you should get pre-built templates that they can very specifically balance the game around. There are so many variables that, core or elite, something is going to come out on top. If it’s elite, people say they have to buy the expansion to compete. If it’s core, people will say that they bought the expansion for nothing and they want their money back.

And that’s all from a competitive perspective only. In my experience you can make a lot of things work for you out in the “real world” of the game against your average opponent. Once you cross the “playing to win” line, I think they should just try to squeak each class into a particular role. As it stands, they’ve almost done that it seems, Warrior being the current Sad Panda with Thief lined up close behind Warrior.

As for the idea in your OP, I personally hate it, because Shroud-based builds that utilize Soul Reaping have always been core to my style. I think it’s specifically a bad idea for Necro because Dhuumfire is specifically not very good on Death Shroud, while it shines a bit brighter on Reaper Shroud.

More generally, though I am appreciative of meaningful decisions, I am already replacing a trait line that I would otherwise really enjoy to have in order to get Reaper. Sure, it’s an upgrade, but I’m definitely sacrificing to get that upgrade, either missing out on the survivability I like from DM, the might-stacking/damage from Spite, or the boon corruption/utility in Curses (I like the Curses line, even if it could use work). The choice still feels meaningful to me without removing a trait line completely from being available to an Elite spec, so I don’t really agree with that approach.

Cogbyrn.7283, it was just example. I believe it would require changes to “core” main line if Anet would go that route, I’ve also proposed in few threads moving Dhumfire to Reaper traitline, since it’s completly useless without RS.

I tried to not focus so hard no the example, but that one hit home in particular. I’ll try again to express what I think, with the shortness:

If ANet decided to utilize everything they have learned balancing the game so far to tailor the Elite spec for each class in such a way that it maneuvered professions into particular roles for competitive play, I think it’s totally fine that each class would only have 1 viable competitive build. Of course, they still have work to do with Thief/Warrior it seems like, but I don’t disagree with that approach if that’s what they are trying to do.

And I already feel like I’m making a meaningful sacrifice by losing a trait line I’m used to having in order to gain the benefits (and style) of being a Reaper. For every profession, if you removed a trait line from being available for the elite spec that people already include with their elite spec, there is going to be rage. If you remove a trait line they didn’t care about taking, then nothing changes for them and you don’t incorporate a meaningful decision anyway without potentially massive overhaul.

In essence, it seems like you are asking ANet to turn one of the original trait lines into an Elite trait line, and that would require more work than I think it would be worth. That’s just what I think, anyway.

I think a main reason why certain non-elite specs aren’t being played is because of only a few elite-specs and what they mean for the metagame in general:

1) D/D-Ele would still be decent, if it weren’t for both revenant and reaper, both regarded as being too strong even for elite-specs. Revenant kinda replaces D/D in the 1v1 roamer department and Reaper would render D/D Ele useless cuz he won’t win against him on the node.

2) Bunker-Guard is heavily suffering from the meta-game shift away from classes he performed very well against, like Thief and a generally more burst-oriented metagame, towards a more sustainy metagame, where the highest DPS-classes don’t care a flying fart about the guards small amount of blocks, like Rev.

3) Shoutwar: I think this one could still kinda work, we might see this one being played more often soon.

4) Thief: We still sometimes see regular D/P-Thiefs, but the current meta is pretty strong against it, with more reveals and better classes fitting the role (again, rev.). Also, ppl rely less on stealth-openers, since many teams choose more sustainy and less bursty comps that don’t need to burst sth. down out of stealth to kill sth.

So the Problem might not be that all Elite specs are simply better, but that the shift in the metagame forced the non-elite specs out of the meta. It might suffice to nerf certain things and maybe buff a few other things and let the meta form a bit more, to see whether or not Elite specs will continue to rule the meta.

@Cogbyrn.7283
Well, if you remove trait line (make it not avalible for elites) not used by elite spec, you can buff it in future without worrying that you will overbuff elite spec, which makes balancing much easier ;-)

However this way we would end up with two Elite specs (core elite and HoT elite).

Morwath.9817:

@Cogbyrn.7283
Well, if you remove trait line (make it not avalible for elites) not used by elite spec, you can buff it in future without worrying that you will overbuff elite spec, which makes balancing much easier ;-)

However this way we would end up with two Elite specs (core elite and HoT elite).

My biggest concern is that, at the end of this, the two elite specs would have to be perfectly balanced for whatever meta develops from it. That means 2 viable specs, at a minimum, across all 9 classes. If that is not the result, then you still have people feeling pigeonholed into a particular elite spec, and nothing has really changed (assuming the goal of this exercise is to make it so people don’t feel stylistically pigeonholed at a competitive level).

Cogbyrn.7283:

Morwath.9817:

@Cogbyrn.7283
Well, if you remove trait line (make it not avalible for elites) not used by elite spec, you can buff it in future without worrying that you will overbuff elite spec, which makes balancing much easier ;-)

However this way we would end up with two Elite specs (core elite and HoT elite).

My biggest concern is that, at the end of this, the two elite specs would have to be perfectly balanced for whatever meta develops from it. That means 2 viable specs, at a minimum, across all 9 classes. If that is not the result, then you still have people feeling pigeonholed into a particular elite spec, and nothing has really changed (assuming the goal of this exercise is to make it so people don’t feel stylistically pigeonholed at a competitive level).

If some professions would have more than 1 viable build it would be already huge step in right direction, so far we got two professions without any viable build probably and everything else is pigeonholed into elite spec.

Morwath.9817:

As long as elite spec can pick anything else than other elite, it always will be unbalanced compared to core profession.
To balance non-elite aspect of profession, they need something core that has to be separated from elite, something that is equipped at same slot as currently elite trait line is (bottom) and probably should be mandatory for non-elite.
So, for example: core Necro would be forced to use Soul Reaping, while Reaper couldn’t equip SR as one of his trait lines.

Thoughts?

Not really they just need to balance the things that are making the elite specs so good or buff the other trait lines or tell me this is all intended so I can quit. I am not saying what you propose wont work either just there are a couple of ways to go at this.

TheGuy.3568:

Until i find an elite spec that really challenges my core Mesmer or Engineer I do not see a point in comparison. The elites are shiny and new but as you learn the mechanics they are essentially not much stronger or weaker than all the builds in the ether. In fact pvp (for me at least) has gotten more face roll and so many players play the same exact builds. too easy to counter. Not saying their aren’t balance issues it just seems over blown to me at this point.

Just wanted to say “Yay, another core mesmer practitioner!”.

There are core builds that are competitive with elite specs. The elite specs are mostly flashy and new. There are a few powerful outliers.

Muchacho.2390:

Well i am not even sure that Anet even wants to balance elite spec vs core spec. I get the feeling thier long term goal is to include more elite specs and balance elite spec vs elite spec.

I get the feeling that Anet wants the most current Elite specs to be a bit OP to drive players to buy the expansion…. Never forget they are a business out to make money first and foremost.

in all honesty, this is already in place for 90% of proffessions, the comments are making this sound like NO proffessions balanced without the elites and thats simply not true, the only proffessions currently locked to using their elites are Chronomancers Reapers and Heralds.

Guardian: PvP, Bunker builds Dont use dragonhunter, they can use dragonhunter but they really dont need to. PvE doesnt even use dragonhunter as its DPS isnt good enough, therefore guardians will generally run tank in raids which has no inclusion of Dragonhunter within it.

Ranger: PvP DPS builds would not use Druid, CF just doesnt regenerate fast enough for it to be viable on a all out DPS build, Druid is Just their bunker build and saying that their ONLY bunker build which is why its replaced their Support side of things. PvE Base Ranger would still be the Optimal choice for DPS as druid just does not offer as high DPS as base ranger.

Engineer – PvP: Condi builds dont use Scrapper and Rifle is Still strong, Hammer is just another option where PvP is concerned PvE: Engineers are used in Condi teams therefore do not use Hammer at all base proffession is better for PvE Capability outside of Soloing content.

Elementalist: PvP Base Elementalist is still the go to specc for 1v1ing as Auramancer is more team fight based, Staff Elementalist is still their full bunker build which does not require use from tempest, PvE: Fresh air is still usuable without Focus, as its always been a thing for them and Base Staff Ele will still provide its DPS.

Thief – I have no idea about realistically the only reason it isnt included with the replacement is because currently thiefs in a bad spot all together with or without the elite and both sides of the bat currently need buffing.

Warrior – Doesnt even need their Elite its Weaker then base proffession so no point including them in this point… still both sides need buffing for them also.

on the majority, Anet have achieved… Elites and Non-elites working side by side for different builds sure u wont see a DPS Guardian not using Dragonhunter, but at the end of the day thats What it was ment to be its Ment to be Ur choice in that situation but Not Stop u building other meta builds.

For Example.

Guardian – Dragonhunters ur DPS Specc, but it isnt ur bunker Specc, it Isnt ur Bruiser Specc and it isnt ur 1v1 Specc, It offers a Teamfight Majoritly based Glassy DPS Specc, This is ONE of the playstyles of the Guardian Not the ENTIRE playstyle of the guardian, and thats precisely what the Elites were ment to be.

back to the point.

Reaper is just too close to its base Necromancer, its Mechanic is a Sheer upgrade to what they had, it was as if the buffs that SHOULD have been given to core necromancer just litterally got bunged into one Traitline and given to them, Necromancers Playstyle is currently Limited to ONE thing which was always going to make the reaper a replacement, Necros are either Condi Damage or Power Damage, u dont rly see Bunker or Glass Necro buidls floating around.

Chronomancer, Again Mesmers were only being Used for a very Small amount of things, Condi Damage or Power Damage, everything was Bursty so long behold giving them a Elite which litterally was STILL damage its a replacement cause it litterally does the Exact same thing to the base Proffession. its not because Chrono is stronger then base proffession, its because the Base proffession and Elite do the exact same job.

Herald, It just gives too much.. to much of the revs power is held inside Herald for it to not be used.. they really need to redistribute the power between the trait lines for this proffession.. its absolute whack.

Elementalist, could include this one here to a extent.. as again the Tempest is Simply the same as the base proffession.. it Just offers a New style to builds that already existed for them.. .Fresh air, Auramancer… were already things… they didnt Bring a new playstyle in more revived a old one Which they forced into balance by a New Elite specialization.

can Anet do anything about these Small Selection of proffessions seeing these problems? No, sadly without 1) nerfing the Elite into the floor forcing the Base proffession to being stronger then it or completely overhauling the Entire elite specialization it Simply will not fix the underlying problem.

Nerfing the Spec, would cause a drop in Sales over the Years, because New players wont see the point in the expansion if they specc isnt even viable anyway. Ovewrhauling the specc would be ALOT of work that anet prolly doesnt want this early on in a expansion.

but hey, we will wait and see maybe they’ll see a Way to put a twist on the core proffessions to bring them advantages to Elite doesnt have, With Reaper buffs to DS and their Ranged options would defintly bring them up to speed, as currently its ONLY their shroud putting the reaper ahead.. as ALOT of what reaper uses is in the base proffession reguardless.

HBerald – Redistribute the powers and it’ll see Much higher variety choice.

Elementalist, No idea, I dont think that can be undone realistically… atleast in the Choices the tempest has Replaced, i suspose remodelling one of their base weapons to be a DPS Would fix this as it’d give a Playstyle which Tempest would never work with.

Mesmer, Couldnt rly think of something… as Currently the Mesmer doesnt use ANYTHING of the elite but the traitline and f5 Mechanic…… i mean Nerfing their f5 mechanic could work.

You can argue what you want … if core specs would be as strong as elite specs, they wouldn’t be pretty much extinct at pvp tournaments. It is a fact, that almost nobody played core builds at the first pro league matches. And being “new and shiny” is no reason for taking elite specs. All what counts is winning and players will choose classes/builds, which give them the best chance to achieve this goal.

Muchacho.2390:

Well i am not even sure that Anet even wants to balance elite spec vs core spec. I get the feeling thier long term goal is to include more elite specs and balance elite spec vs elite spec.

This. I wouldn’t mind this, I just hope they come out with some new elite specs soon, especially for thief and warrior. Thieves need a pirate and assassin elite spec. Hopefully thieves and warriors get some buffs, either way I’d be happy.