Hotjoin PvP in Heart of the Mists

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Posted by: Scyrka.1356

Scyrka.1356

Hello everybody:

First off, I used the title specifically to attract attention – and it probably worked.

This topic is regarding hotjoin PvP in Heart of the Mists and will only cover that.

Some issues addressed are not necessarily relevant when using a pre-made team, but that isn’t the topic here. Hotjoin pvp should be more fun, and it isn’t.

Some of these issues were NEVER a problem in the original Guild Wars – how can the developers not have this resolved more than a YEAR after launch?

  1. Why do you allow players to click “Leave Match” without ANY consequences? The team is often left without a replacement, only to have their time wasted. There should be a system that temporarily denies players from rejoining hotjoin pvp if they disconnect from the match. Make it, say, a 10 minute window?
  2. Games often start with very few players. I’m sorry, but this is just stupid and nobody appreciates this. Matches shouldn’t start unless both sides have full teams. Want to play 1v1? Fine, make a custom match and go nuts.
  3. Players are not playing with other players near their skill level. Is it too much to ask that we play hotjoin matches with people around our skill level? You can at least start by matching players based on pvp rank, even though it isn’t the best method. But it would prevent longtime PvPers from playing with people whose in their first match ever.
  4. Bring in gladiator-style PvP matches. Let players battle 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, etc. Have this be a separate ranking system that allows players to show off how good they are fighting 1 vs 1. Matches should allow each player only one life, so make it count.
  5. The downed system does not make sense for a competitive PvP game. If someone is able to take you down, you should be down. You weren’t prepared. You messed up. You didn’t stun the glass cannon build. Your teammates didn’t help. Sucks to suck. Can you still resurrect them? Sure, and make the resurrect time a little quicker to aid this. But don’t give them abilities that are sometimes better than some abilities while they are up. More often than not, the downed system is annoying. You get about one guaranteed “save my butt” ability to buy you time, a decent auto attack, and perhaps a third useful ability. But 9 times out of 10, you still die and you just wasted everyone’s time doing nonsense. The rally system doesn’t make any sense – how do you suddenly get the ability to come back up, now perfectly fine, just because someone else died?

If you agree with anything I said, or have CONSTRUCTIVE feedback, post it below.

If you don’t agree, then don’t say anything. Nobody wants to hear how dumb you think these ideas are.

If you, as the developers, want this game to grow – this is the main problem (in my opinion). I want to see professional game casters devote part of their channels to Guild Wars 2 PvP. I want to see this become an Esport.

I just want this game to be better.

(edited by Scyrka.1356)

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Posted by: runeblade.7514

runeblade.7514

Obligatory “This is hotjoin, who cares?” post

5x Warrior, 5x Ranger, 4x Elementalist, 4x Engineer,
4x Necromancer, 3x Mesmer, 4x Guardian, 4x Thief, 4 Revenant

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Posted by: Scyrka.1356

Scyrka.1356

Most competitive pvp games (Starcraft, Dota, LoL, etc) are primarily hotjoin matches, and the developers actually take them seriously. I don’t know why Anet, who originally WANTED GW2 to become an Esport, isn’t doing this.

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Posted by: a t s e.9614

a t s e.9614

I agree about the downed state. When you’re dead , you’re dead. It doesn’t make any sense that you can still troll or even kill people in the downed state.

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Posted by: Rallad.3802

Rallad.3802

Normal queue would pretty much address this. With the new hardcap on hotjoin rewards- im sure it will attract loads of casual players.

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Posted by: Scyrka.1356

Scyrka.1356

The downed state makes more sense for PvE, just not PvP, in my opinion (which is shared by others, too).

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Posted by: Roe.3679

Roe.3679

A lot of these issues are addressed by playing ranked matches.

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Posted by: Scyrka.1356

Scyrka.1356

I’ve played tons of ranked matches where players just leave. There’s no penalty for them and it ruins the fun for everyone.

Again, this topic is for hotjoin matches. If every issue was resolved by going to ranked matches, why would you even have hotjoin? There’s almost no difference right now between hotjoin and ranked.

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Posted by: kishter.9578

kishter.9578

The match start soon: 3vs4 and 4vs5. clearly one advantage for the team whit more people in the 2-3 first minutes. After that nobody want to enter a loosing team. No fun at all.

We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that.

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Posted by: Scyrka.1356

Scyrka.1356

Thanks for your feedback. I think if people really want to play team-based-nobody-really-cares-style-pvp, then go play in WvW. But structured pvp as it stands is not, in any way, structured by the game.

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Posted by: bobomb.5209

bobomb.5209

Obligatory “This is hotjoin, who cares?” post

Everyone should care. If something is broken you should try to fix it. These are very good suggestions and you should get your mind out of the metaphorical pile of crap and atleast think of the benefits of improving hotjoin.

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Posted by: Roe.3679

Roe.3679

I’ve played tons of ranked matches where players just leave. There’s no penalty for them and it ruins the fun for everyone.

Again, this topic is for hotjoin matches. If every issue was resolved by going to ranked matches, why would you even have hotjoin? There’s almost no difference right now between hotjoin and ranked.

Ranked matches certainly aren’t perfect but you’re more likely to have competent players who stick around than in hotjoin.

Hotjoin allows players to practice and run experimental builds without being punished for it. I want to improve playing my alts – where else should I do that? Tournament play is a bad choice because I am not only doing poorly for myself, but bringing down my teammates too. Then there are players who don’t feel confident enough to play in tpvp matches at all and still want to pvp.

Hotjoin as fewer negative consequences and allows for more immediate playtime.

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Posted by: bobomb.5209

bobomb.5209

As the above post regarding someones ignorance I will post the reasons the potential changes would be beneficial( in case any devs are looking).

1.) Punishing players for deserting their teams is a good idea. It punishes the people who rage quit, and does not affect the people whom have somewhere to be.

2.)Waiting for hotjoin to be filled would encourage players to bring their friends, and would generally improve the mood of the players participating when they know they are getting a fair fight.

3.) A much needed change. New players find themselves going against higher skilled players who go into hot join to just kill new players. This does not leave a good impression on the new players and causes the PvP community to lose potential dedicated players.

4.)This has been asked many times. And is no less needed or warranted because of it.

5.) The current downed state as it is is not good for PvP. It puts large numbers at a disadvantage, further discouraging smart play. If the revival time on defeated players was reduced and downed state taken out as suggested above. I believe PvP would improve somewhat. Whether or not it does though it should atleast be attempted. This change would not affect PvE, but would affect WvW.

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Posted by: Scyrka.1356

Scyrka.1356

If you want to test builds, there should be practice lobbies setup with no rewards at the end of matches.

As it stands, there are absolutely no consequences in any pvp game mode for doing just about anything you want to, and that simply isn’t fair for those who put a lot of time into sPvP.

(edited by Scyrka.1356)

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Posted by: Peter Buch.8071

Peter Buch.8071

Ofc there is PvP in Guild Wars 2. It’s just Player vs. Point.

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Posted by: Scyrka.1356

Scyrka.1356

Which leads to another issue – when you have the objective to capture points, you force players to play bunker builds. If the objective was kills or just killing the opponent Guild Lord (like in original GW), then the build designs should shift more towards well-rounded play because combat would be all over the place instead of localized at control points where AoE spam and bunker builds dominate.

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Posted by: Roe.3679

Roe.3679

If you want to test builds, there should be practice lobbies setup with no rewards at the end of matches.

As it stands, there are absolutely no consequences in any pvp game mode for doing just about anything you want to, and that simply isn’t fair for those who put a lot of time into sPvP.

Then people would practice in ranked games because there are no rewards in the practice area.

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Posted by: Scyrka.1356

Scyrka.1356

Players experimenting a build for the first time should not be in matches with players who expect them to understand their build and know its effectiveness.

Sure, players can still join a ranked match. But why risk losing when you could join a practice lobby for a few minutes?

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Posted by: Roe.3679

Roe.3679

Players experimenting a build for the first time should not be in matches with players who expect them to understand their build and know its effectiveness.

Sure, players can still join a ranked match. But why risk losing when you could join a practice lobby for a few minutes?

Or why not have hotjoin where anyone can still progress, and practice, and can come and go as they like? Those servers are almost constantly full. Seems like people like it.

Plus I’m not going to be relevant on an alt in a few minutes.

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Posted by: EoNxBoNx.9213

EoNxBoNx.9213

Most competitive pvp games (Starcraft, Dota, LoL, etc) are primarily hotjoin matches, and the developers actually take them seriously. I don’t know why Anet, who originally WANTED GW2 to become an Esport, isn’t doing this.

Your comparisons are off base of what hot-joins are. They are more like a CS:GO server where you can join and leave when ever you want with no penalty, and they are very casual. This is how it should remain. The lobby’s is SC2, Dota, and LoL, take time to set up (no that it is hard or anything) the game servers do not run it themselves like in shooter games. specifically the reason that is for GW2 is to make hot joins extremely casual.

“You’re either a Noob or a Pro your entire life, that’s life”
IGN – Kinjax // World – Anvil Rock
IGN – InTheseDays // World – Anvil Rock

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Posted by: Tamasan.6457

Tamasan.6457

I firmly agree with OP that hotjoin should be much more fun than it currently is.

-I don’t want to wait for matches to start – I’d do solo or team queue for that.
-I’m not completely against some minor punishment for leaving a team, but think that would be treating the symptom, not the problem.
-I enjoy the downed state system.

I disagree on how to fix the problems. I think a much simpler and less resource intensive option is to make autobalance actually balance teams. People stack teams and leave losing sides because you can rarely get an even match, and there’s no incentives to staying on the losing outmanned team when you can force your way onto a winning side or jump servers.

-When joining a match in progress and the teams are even, players should be put on the losing side.
-When one side has more players and is 100+ points ahead, autobalance should force someone onto the losing team.
-Much faster activation. Right now it takes 10-20 seconds between the point a team is 2 members short and when autobalance activates. It then takes an additional 10 seconds to find a person to switch. This shouldn’t be any longer than 5 seconds each.

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Posted by: Scyrka.1356

Scyrka.1356

Tamasan, the majority of players I’ve talked with would disagree with you. I think many of us would be okay waiting just 1 minute to have the game setup a 5v5 team. Also, autobalance at the moment is completely rubbish and stupid. If it starts out 3v5 or 4v5, there’s little chance for the disadvantaged side to ever comeback and win. I have hundreds of games of experience and I can’t really remember a time when I won a match on a team with less players.

Now many of you might be thinking “how is this different from Arena?”. Ask yourselves now – how is it currently different? It’s really not. As it stands, hotjoin and arena are almost exactly the same. Arena needs to be more competitive. Perhaps a Rating that can be increased or decreased depending on victories should be implemented so that players strive harder to win. Hotjoin PvP would not have a ranking and would be just for fun, but at least taken a little more seriously.

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Posted by: Brigg.6189

Brigg.6189

So you mentioned practice lobby with no rewards as an addition, but that’s pretty much how I view hotjoin now. It’s not for competitive matches, just fooling around. I wouldn’t be heartbroken if it was changed to 0 reward but I don’t think it’s necessary, just needs to be less than solo/team queue.

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Posted by: Deimos Tel Arin.7391

Deimos Tel Arin.7391

I agree about the downed state. When you’re dead , you’re dead. It doesn’t make any sense that you can still troll or even kill people in the downed state.

downed state is not dead.

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Posted by: Deimos Tel Arin.7391

Deimos Tel Arin.7391

Most competitive pvp games (Starcraft, Dota, LoL, etc) are primarily hotjoin matches, and the developers actually take them seriously. I don’t know why Anet, who originally WANTED GW2 to become an Esport, isn’t doing this.

errr no.

starcraft = mainly 1 vs1
dota, LoL = 5 vs 5

hotjoin means you are free to come and go as you please
team fortress 2, counter strike series, half life death match = hotjoin

dota, LoL = 5 vs 5, not hotjoin.

imagine 5 people playing basketball against another 5 people.
now one of them had to leave, but there are no replacements.
it would become 4 vs 5 and the teams are not balanced anymore.

that is not hotjoin.

the original 8 vs 8 official anet servers, those are hotjoin.

hotjoin cannot work in 5 vs 5 as the number of players are not enough.

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Posted by: Deimos Tel Arin.7391

Deimos Tel Arin.7391

Why do you allow players to click “Leave Match” without ANY consequences? The team is often left without a replacement, only to have their time wasted. There should be a system that temporarily denies players from rejoining hotjoin pvp if they disconnect from the match. Make it, say, a 10 minute window?

because it is hotjoin and not solo arena or team arena.

hotjoin is “free to come and go without any consequences” and is very casual by nature. this is working as intended. well, it worked much better when it was 8 vs 8 but when they forcefully changed all the official servers into 5 vs 5 problems previously never happened before started popping up everywhere.

  1. Games often start with very few players. I’m sorry, but this is just stupid and nobody appreciates this. Matches shouldn’t start unless both sides have full teams. Want to play 1v1? Fine, make a custom match and go nuts.

this was never a problem when the official 8 vs 8 anet hotjoin servers were still around. it was only after the removal of official 8 vs 8 anet hotjoin servers that this problem appeared.

  1. Players are not playing with other players near their skill level. Is it too much to ask that we play hotjoin matches with people around our skill level? You can at least start by matching players based on pvp rank, even though it isn’t the best method. But it would prevent longtime PvPers from playing with people whose in their first match ever.

this is unavoidable. hotjoin are public servers, and anyone can enter. if players wish to play with players near their skill level, they should try playing in solo arena or team arena, because for hotjoin public servers it is very possible to meet players from all kinds of skill level.

  1. Bring in gladiator-style PvP matches. Let players battle 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, etc. Have this be a separate ranking system that allows players to show off how good they are fighting 1 vs 1. Matches should allow each player only one life, so make it count.

the game is not balanced for 1 vs 1 but a specially designed game mode for it would work though.

  1. The downed system does not make sense for a competitive PvP game. If someone is able to take you down, you should be down. You weren’t prepared. You messed up. You didn’t stun the glass cannon build. Your teammates didn’t help. Sucks to suck. Can you still resurrect them? Sure, and make the resurrect time a little quicker to aid this. But don’t give them abilities that are sometimes better than some abilities while they are up. More often than not, the downed system is annoying. You get about one guaranteed “save my butt” ability to buy you time, a decent auto attack, and perhaps a third useful ability. But 9 times out of 10, you still die and you just wasted everyone’s time doing nonsense. The rally system doesn’t make any sense – how do you suddenly get the ability to come back up, now perfectly fine, just because someone else died?

the down system is working as intended. certain professions have better downed skills because they have weak armor and lower health pool.

also, downed is not dead / defeated so the fight is not over.
finish what you started.

If you don’t agree, then don’t say anything. Nobody wants to hear how dumb you think these ideas are.

i dun agree, and i will voice out. this is a public forum. and you have no right to deny anyone else of their posting privileges as long as they do it politely.

also, regarding your reasoning “Nobody wants to hear how dumb you think these ideas are.” i could say the same from another perspective, as in:

“Nobody wants to read all these dumb ideas of yours.”

it is all a matter of perspective.

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Posted by: Writetyper.1985

Writetyper.1985

Because hotjoins are for casual, sandpit quick matches and ranked matches solve every problem here except 5. (Actually it doesn’t solve any of them (top lel) but it should).

If I wanted to play a quick bit of PvP before my WvW queue or while waiting for a ranked match queue, and you couldn’t go into hotjoins without consequences for leaving, what would you suggest I do? Hit target dummies for 10 minutes?

Honestly it perplexes me that this hotjoin/ranked match system exists so that people have the option to choose between lighthearted casual matches and hardcore more competitive experience, and people try to force the lighthearted casual example into something to be taken seriously.

This is my constructive response that pretty much nullifies all your points (except for #5). Until you can explain why you believe hotjoins should be competitive, that is. If you can come up with a good reason, then fair enough.

Mortryde/Cold/Thugmentalist Bara
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Posted by: Liewec.2896

Liewec.2896

my biggest issule is the removal of 8v8, i could play until 2 in the morning and still be able to join an 8v8, with the throttling down to 5v5 after even midnight you see pretty much all of those tiny matches turning into 2v3, or more often than anything 1v1 or 1v0…

GIVE US OUR 8V8 BACK!

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Posted by: Deimos Tel Arin.7391

Deimos Tel Arin.7391

my biggest issule is the removal of 8v8, i could play until 2 in the morning and still be able to join an 8v8, with the throttling down to 5v5 after even midnight you see pretty much all of those tiny matches turning into 2v3, or more often than anything 1v1 or 1v0…

GIVE US OUR 8V8 BACK!

8 vs 8 can only happen in custom servers now.
they will not give us back.

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Posted by: revy.4320

revy.4320

The downed system does not make sense for a competitive PvP game. If someone is able to take you down, you should be down. You weren’t prepared. You messed up. You didn’t stun the glass cannon build. Your teammates didn’t help. Sucks to suck. Can you still resurrect them? Sure, and make the resurrect time a little quicker to aid this. But don’t give them abilities that are sometimes better than some abilities while they are up. More often than not, the downed system is annoying. You get about one guaranteed “save my butt” ability to buy you time, a decent auto attack, and perhaps a third useful ability. But 9 times out of 10, you still die and you just wasted everyone’s time doing nonsense. The rally system doesn’t make any sense – how do you suddenly get the ability to come back up, now perfectly fine, just because someone else died?

First of all I don’t see how this specifically relates to HJ.

You are suggesting that there are down-state abilities better than some abilities which you have when you are up, yet you don’t enumerate them, elaborate on why they are better, actually you don’t even write just one of them.

In my opinion there is nothing particularly nonsensical with the rally system. It gives an element of RP in the game ( though a rather vague one) and it is a mechanic that you need to account for in fights, which is always good, as it highers the skill ceiling.

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Posted by: kito.1827

kito.1827

the statement about 8v8 is true in case of the hotjoin system to make it work for 5v5 based games. 7v7 or 6v6 would work as well.
sadly but truly it forced players into wrong gameplay, so you had no real chance of learning how to fight nor to learn conquest.
therefore i am happy with 8v8 hotjoin been gone.

but this leaves us with a gamesystem not entirely working right now.

number 1, 2 and 3 i agree (1 should be hotfixed asap). hotjoin should transmute into unranked matches. instant penalties (10mins). join as in teamarena. rated for teambalance but without leaderboard etc.
number 4… everybody wants more gamemodes, as do i!
5 – never liked downedstate, never will

Karl Otik
no gutz no glory
“Tranquility has a beard.”

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Posted by: Vieteriukko.6075

Vieteriukko.6075

>sadly but truly it forced players into wrong gameplay, so you had no real chance of >learning how to fight nor to learn conquest.

^^ This is what I don’t understand. Sheer numbers show that significant part of players enjoyed 8v8 hotjoins me included. I have no possible intention ever to participate competitive scene but I still want to do some skirmish PvP matches. Please try to see bigger picture here.

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Posted by: CntrlAltDefeat.1465

CntrlAltDefeat.1465

The downed system does not make sense for a competitive PvP game. If someone is able to take you down, you should be down. You weren’t prepared. You messed up. You didn’t stun the glass cannon build. Your teammates didn’t help. Sucks to suck. Can you still resurrect them? Sure, and make the resurrect time a little quicker to aid this. But don’t give them abilities that are sometimes better than some abilities while they are up. More often than not, the downed system is annoying. You get about one guaranteed “save my butt” ability to buy you time, a decent auto attack, and perhaps a third useful ability. But 9 times out of 10, you still die and you just wasted everyone’s time doing nonsense. The rally system doesn’t make any sense – how do you suddenly get the ability to come back up, now perfectly fine, just because someone else died?

Unlike guild wars, there is no rez signet. The down state/rally system is it replacement mechanic. This the same as saying in guild wars how is it possible if you defeated someone, anyone on their team can near instantly bring them back into the game, and then have them go on to defeat others from previously being removed from the match. There were multiple skills in guild wars that did this. Even to the point one person could resurrect multiple players, but if they became defeat within a certain time, anyone that they resurrected in that time frame would also become instantly defeated again.

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Posted by: CntrlAltDefeat.1465

CntrlAltDefeat.1465

Because hotjoins are for casual, sandpit quick matches and ranked matches solve every problem here except 5. (Actually it doesn’t solve any of them (top lel) but it should).

If I wanted to play a quick bit of PvP before my WvW queue or while waiting for a ranked match queue, and you couldn’t go into hotjoins without consequences for leaving, what would you suggest I do? Hit target dummies for 10 minutes?

Honestly it perplexes me that this hotjoin/ranked match system exists so that people have the option to choose between lighthearted casual matches and hardcore more competitive experience, and people try to force the lighthearted casual example into something to be taken seriously.

This is my constructive response that pretty much nullifies all your points (except for #5). Until you can explain why you believe hotjoins should be competitive, that is. If you can come up with a good reason, then fair enough.

Hotjoin is casual because people treat it that way. Your point doesn’t nullify anything to be honest. In guild wars random arena’s (Often seen as the play pen PvP arena) Still gave you dishonour if you left and also gave you on-par rewards for winning competitive streaks. This only highlights that even casual aspects of the game can be taken in a competitive nature. The only difference is the circumstances of the matches. Team arena is 4 people who have elected to compete. GvG is a party of individuals who chosen to compete on a larger scale. Hero arena is individuals with have styled support AI teams that need micro managing. Random arena is individuals who have chosen to compete by being group with others they don’t know, or have specifics of what they are running. To this ends in most R.A matches if you noticed all your other team members had terrifying gladiator or above titles that even though there was no co-ordinated set up, often each profession knew what role they should deliver by who they were paired with. After a few matches they then recognised exactly what other people were running and knew what targets to leave for others and who they should focus on. The seemingly ‘casual RA’ match became a lot more in these circumstances and would often result in 25 consecutive wins with rewards to match.

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Posted by: orenwolf.1953

orenwolf.1953

If you agree with anything I said, or have CONSTRUCTIVE feedback, post it below.

If you don’t agree, then don’t say anything. Nobody wants to hear how dumb you think these ideas are.

Feedback is only constructive if we agree with what you said?

It sounds to me that you are more interested in being heard and supported than in having an actual discussion. You might want to rethink that strategy.