Guild Wars 2

regarding the official public hotjoin servers,
there are more players in 8 vs 8 servers than in 5 vs 5 servers,

this morning about 8.30am (GMT+ 8:00) i checked out the sPvP game browser.
i counted about 16 – 17 hotjoin servers with players in them, for both 8 vs 8 and 5 vs 5 hotjoin servers.

although the numbers of both 8v8 and 5v5 hotjoin servers with players are the same, there are more players playing in 8v8 hotjoin servers.

yet every now and then, i see these vocal minority sPvP forum goers asking for 8v8 hotjoin servers to be removed.

there are clearly more players who play in public 8v8 hotjoin servers.
as such, 8v8 hotjoin servers should never be removed.

Your argument is fallacious.

The game is balanced for 5v5, both on a class basis, and the in terms of the map size/layout. 8v8 gives players a skewed impression of PvP interactions. It might be fun to kitten around, but if all you do is 8v8, you’re going to get a very poor impression of the game itself. Classes won’t seem balanced properly, maps will seem off, etc etc etc.

It’s about whats good for the game and the playerbase in the long run, not what’s “fun right now” for some.

evilapprentice.6379:

Your argument is fallacious.

The game is balanced for 5v5, both on a class basis, and the in terms of the map size/layout. 8v8 gives players a skewed impression of PvP interactions. It might be fun to kitten around, but if all you do is 8v8, you’re going to get a very poor impression of the game itself. Classes won’t seem balanced properly, maps will seem off, etc etc etc.

It’s about whats good for the game and the playerbase in the long run, not what’s “fun right now” for some.

He’s saying it’s fun for the majority of people and that we have no right to tell others what they should be enjoying.

bhagwad.4281:

evilapprentice.6379:

Your argument is fallacious.

The game is balanced for 5v5, both on a class basis, and the in terms of the map size/layout. 8v8 gives players a skewed impression of PvP interactions. It might be fun to kitten around, but if all you do is 8v8, you’re going to get a very poor impression of the game itself. Classes won’t seem balanced properly, maps will seem off, etc etc etc.

It’s about whats good for the game and the playerbase in the long run, not what’s “fun right now” for some.

He’s saying it’s fun for the majority of people and that we have no right to tell others what they should be enjoying.

The problem is 8v8 doesn’t add anything to the game. It’s a place for experienced players to mash buttons, waste time, and roflstomp people, and a place for inexperienced players to get a very skewed and incorrect impression of how PvP works in this game.

If there was a clear tutorial, that explained that the game was balanced around 5v5, and walked you through some standard TPvP strategies/tactics, it would be a different story. As it is, any inexperienced player who hops from 8v8 to TPvP is going to be in for a very unpleasant surprise – they’ll basically be playing a different game. Even if 8v8 fun, that doesn’t make it good for the game in the long run.

then focus on better tutorials.
for solo arena / team arena 5 vs 5 game modes.

not by asking for the removal of 8 vs 8 public hotjoin servers.

again, stop blaming 8 vs 8 public hotjoin servers for your bad experiences in solo arena. yes, you are obviously blaming 8 vs 8 public hotjoin servers for that.

8v8 is the reason many people are turned off by gw2 pvp when first trying it
when people first try pvp they get to the low skill cap and zergyness that is 8v8.
they try it and are left with a sour taste in their mouth, and do not return.
for example, i have like four friends from wow who bought the game when it first came out. they played hotjoin for a week, and refuse to come back to gw2.

make 8v8 in custom arenas only
the only reason there are more people in the 8v8 servers is because you have to scroll down and actually look for the 5v5 servers. im sure most the people in the 8v8 hotjoins are fairly new and dont even know about the 5v5 servers.
then maybe custom arenas will get some more use.

“8v8 is the reason many people are turned off by gw2 pvp when first trying it "
do you have any other evidence to prove this claim? otherwise, it just proves that 4 wow players are unable to cope with the fast paced action of guild wars 2 sPvP.

your claim is invalid.

“make 8v8 in custom arenas only "
no. i used custom filter to check for both 5 vs 5 and 8 vs 8.
there are more players playing in 8 vs 8 hotjoin servers.
there are less players playing in 5 vs 5 hotjoin servers.

“im sure most the people in the 8v8 hotjoins are fairly new and dont even know about the 5v5 servers.”
do you have any evidence to back up this claim? no, you do not.

your request to make 8 vs 8 custom arena only is selfish.

Justin ODell.9517:

I don’t mean to derail this thread, but I don’t think you can take the current player counts as representative. I mentioned in another thread that the server backend is currently preferring 8v8 due to a bug.

well, fair enough. yes, i read that part about the “play now” button shuffling players into 8 vs 8 servers more often instead of 5 vs 5 servers.

i will observe the pvp game browser again once that issue has been fixed.

i will check at different time intervals of the day and check for a few days then post my results here again.

I dont know what bug you speak of, but I prefer 8v8 in hotjoins because more people = better as long as it isnt a zerg.

In a 5v5, 1v1, 2v1 or 2v2 are predominant, more so in ranked matches. Sure I love playing small scale scenarios, but I happen to play the critter elementalist profession so i cant afford to be shut down easily. I go to sPvP to fight people, not seeing people is not fun, seeing people IS fun.

If I want small scale scenarios then all I need to do is tournaments, if I want big bloby lag fests I go to WvW, if I want small fight scenarios with a respectable amount of people I go hotjoin. I will be really sad if this goes away….. leave the ranked as 5v5 if anything…

Fortus,
that bug that Justin speaks off, is that, the current “play now” buttons tends to throw players into 8 vs 8 hotjoin game rooms and not 5 vs 5 hotjoin game rooms.

i use custom filter for 8 vs 8 game rooms so it does not affect me.

Also, keep in mind that the OP’s quick survey only counted those currently in hotjoin.

It’s very likely that the total numbers would be far higher if 5v5 hotjoins were more prominent and the system were tweaked a bit to try to keep numbers even.

NevirSayDie,
well, i’m sure they (anet PvP team) have the actual figures.

i will do more quick actual surveys (i.e. add up the numbers from screen shots) from different time and many days and post up my results.

so far, the “play now” is still bugged to favor shoving players into 8 vs 8 servers until further notice.

and yes, i can only count hotjoin since there is no public way to count arena matches.
however, i heard that the queue times for solo / team arena games are horribly long. please correct me if i am wrong.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

NevirSayDie,
well, i’m sure they (anet PvP team) have the actual figures.

i will do more quick actual surveys (i.e. add up the numbers from screen shots) from different time and many days and post up my results.

so far, the “play now” is still bugged to favor shoving players into 8 vs 8 servers until further notice.

and yes, i can only count hotjoin since there is no public way to count arena matches.
however, i heard that the queue times for solo / team arena games are horribly long. please correct me if i am wrong.

Apologies, I didn’t communicate very well. I meant that if hotjoin were made better, the total number of players would be much higher (and so the current percentage would lose significance).

Solo/team queues are actually pretty fast. I don’t usually play in the morning/afternoon, but in evenings I’d say depending on your matchmaking level, you could expect a 1-5 minute wait for solo queue. Team queues are actually sometimes instant.

NevirSayDie,
ah i see, thanks for clarifying.

and thanks for the feedback on solo arena and team arena since i do not play in those game modes anymore nowadays.

evilapprentice.6379:

The game is balanced

I lol’d at this part.

-“Play Now” is bugged. It wouldn’t surprise me if anyone besides people that frequent the forum know about this.

-The maps and the modes are made for 5vs5. Hotjoin players thus get a false view of (competitive) pvp

=> 8vs8 hotjoin has ruined and is still ruining pvp. It HAS to become 5v5 if we want to get people back/new people to sPvP and tPvP.

Game is balanced for 5 vs 5 fights so idea is that there would be 5 vs 5 fight in every capture point so game is actually balanced for 15 vs 15.

Smiley.5376:

-“Play Now” is bugged. It wouldn’t surprise me if anyone besides people that frequent the forum know about this.

-The maps and the modes are made for 5vs5. Hotjoin players thus get a false view of (competitive) pvp

=> 8vs8 hotjoin has ruined and is still ruining pvp. It HAS to become 5v5 if we want to get people back/new people to sPvP and tPvP.

games can have competitive modes and casual modes.

8 vs 8 = casual mode
5 vs 5 = competitive mode

nothing is ruined.
again, stop blaming 8 vs 8 hotjoin servers.

for example, in counter strike global offensive,
people plays 10 vs 10 in casual mode
people plays 5 vs 5 in competitive mode

“Hotjoin players thus get a false view of (competitive) pvp”
do you have evidence to back up this claim?

“8vs8 hotjoin has ruined and is still ruining pvp.”
evidence, please. stop blaming 8 vs 8 hotjoin.

“It HAS to become 5v5 if we want to get people back/new people to sPvP and tPvP.”
no. 8 vs 8 hotjoin must stay.
there are other methods to bring in new people.

you must be a troll

Smiley.5376:

you must be a troll

well, it is really a perspective issue.

in my perspective, i see you as a troll, because you claim that 8 vs 8 is ruining sPvP but do not have solid evidence to back up your claims.

seriously…

I stated two points. The arrow means “following these two points”, it is not a statement on it’s own. You want evidence ? look at the pvp population… new players don’t even get an idea of how competitive play is because of 8vs8 bug for god sake… and when they join SoloQ most people rage about them because what’s the point of playing a ranked match if you need to teach people how to play ? The teaching part should be done in hotjoin !

About my seconds point: Do you not understand that there is a causal relationship between the fact that maps/balance is done around 5v5 and getting a false view of (competitive) pvp if hotjoin is bugged to prefer 8vs8 ?

And for gods sake how can you compare cs:go with gw2…

“look at the pvp population”
aye, population is very low. but this is also due to other reasons as well, you cannot blame 8 vs 8 hotjoin alone.

“new players don’t even get an idea of how competitive play is because of 8vs8 bug for god sake… "
not really. there is a filter to filter 5 vs 5 and 8 vs 8 hotjoin game rooms.
does new players really need that much hand holding and spoon feeding to become competitive players?

“and when they join SoloQ most people rage about them because what’s the point of playing a ranked match if you need to teach people how to play ? "
players who intend to be competitive will learn to be competitive by themselves, without the hand holding and spoon feeding.

“The teaching part should be done in hotjoin !”
well, there really should be better sPvP tutorials in guild wars 2. the current ones are not good enough, especially for 5 vs 5 solo arena and team arena.

“Do you not understand that there is a causal relationship between the fact that maps/balance is done around 5v5 and getting a false view of (competitive) pvp if hotjoin is bugged to prefer 8vs8 ?”
thus, new players should be more informed that 8 vs 8 is a casual game mode while 5 vs 5 is the proper competitive game mode.

they could easily implement default 5 vs 5 and 8 vs 8 filters in the game browser.
2 tabs, one for 5 vs 5 (competitive) and 8 vs 8 (casual) i.e. label them official.

officially
label 8 vs 8 game rooms as casual game rooms
label 5 vs 5 game rooms as competitive training game rooms

“And for gods sake how can you compare cs:go with gw2…”
why not? both csgo and gw2 spvp are player versus player games. though one is first person, the other is 3rd person. both have casual and competitive players. you cannot deny that fact.

- i didn’t blame 8vs8 alone, i responded to the issue that way because the thread is about this. But you must agree it’s one of the reasons.

-i know there’s a filter, and yes they do, more then you think

-of coarse they will but a little help from Anet to make it easier couldn’t hurt right ?

-I agree

-Exactly

Smiley,
“- i didn’t blame 8vs8 alone, i responded to the issue that way because the thread is about this. But you must agree it’s one of the reasons.”
errrr i will be honest. since i like / love to play on anet’s public hotjoin servers 8 vs 8 my perspective is quite biased towards that end, and i cannot agree with you that it is one of the reasons, i am sorry. >.<

in fact, it is so biased, that i tend to believe that, 8 vs 8 hotjoin servers is the only remaining reason why casual sPvPers are still playing sPvP. that is my truly biased opinion of course.

“-i know there’s a filter, and yes they do, more then you think”
i see. i am not aware of this issue since nowadays i do not play in solo arena or team arena anymore.

“-of coarse they will but a little help from Anet to make it easier couldn’t hurt right ?”
yes, i agree. a little help, or a lot more from the officials (anet) to help new players get used to competitive 5 vs 5 game mode would not hurt, but help sPvP a lot.

hence, we should focus our energies on improving in game tutorials for helping new sPvP players who intends to be participate in the competitive solo arena and team arena.

valve’s Dota 2 had a mentor system. i do not know how that works. perhaps guild wars 2 sPvP could have a mentor system as well?

Couple of points.

1) As Justin said, more players are pushed into 8vs8 when they press “play now” due to some kind of bug.

2) The 8vs8 servers are at the top of the list, so people are more inclined to play them.

3) The 8vs8 servers are more likely to have free spots with a decent number of players in a game because of the above two points and due to the larger number of players.

4) The game’s UI has always favoured pushing players into 8vs8 in hotjoin; 5vs5 servers were even more inaccessible in the past.

5) When players from other areas of the game who are not familiar with the somewhat clumsy spvp UI server, let alone know that the game is balanced around 5vs5, come they will take the path of least resistance- leading them to 8vs8.

6) Justin conducted a poll on whether players preferred 8vs8 or 5vs5, and when I looked at it, the overwhelming majority wanted just 5vs5.

If we reversed all the, imo, regrettable design decisions that have pushed players into 8vs8 since launch I have no doubt that 5vs5 would be the most played game type.

Probably taking 8vs8 out altogether would be one of the easiest ways to boost the quality of this part of the game, but maybe you guys can just hide it cleverly like you did with 5vs5?

“6) Justin conducted a poll on whether players preferred 8vs8 or 5vs5, and when I looked at it, the overwhelming majority wanted just 5vs5.”
that is just referring to the “Play Now” button and not as a whole.

“but maybe you guys can just hide it cleverly like you did with 5vs5?”
as long as i can find the official anet 8 vs 8 hotjoin servers with the custom filter then it should be fine. at least those who wanna play in 8 vs 8 still can do so.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

“6) Justin conducted a poll on whether players preferred 8vs8 or 5vs5, and when I looked at it, the overwhelming majority wanted just 5vs5.”
that is just referring to the “Play Now” button and not as a whole.

“but maybe you guys can just hide it cleverly like you did with 5vs5?”
as long as i can find the official anet 8 vs 8 hotjoin servers with the custom filter then it should be fine. at least those who wanna play in 8 vs 8 still can do so.

Yes you are right, it was about “play now”, but note that the overwhelming majority- and I am not exaggerating when I say “overwhelming”- was for “play now” to direct players ONLY to 5vs5 games.

I agree 8vs8 should still be an option, but if it is hidden as well as 5vs5 was you will be in for some lonely games.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Justin conducted a poll on whether players preferred 8vs8 or 5vs5, and when I looked at it, the overwhelming majority wanted just 5vs5."
that is just referring to the “Play Now” button and not as a whole.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Poll-Team-size-for-Play-Now/first#post3198253

^ Link to the thread + poll.

1. Everything should be 5v5 – 231 votes (55%)
2. Prefer 5v5 – 104 votes (25%)
3. Half 5v5, Half 8v8 – 59 votes (14%)
4. Prefer 8v8 – 17 votes (4%)
5. Everything should be 8v8 – 11 votes (3%)
422 total votes

only 422 total votes though.

i did not vote since i want 2 buttons.
play now 5 vs 5 (competitive)
play now 8 vs 8 (casual)

Yasha.5963:

but if it is hidden as well as 5vs5 was you will be in for some lonely games.

those who want to play in 8 vs 8 servers will still find them via the filter.

Isn’t 8 versus 8 still the join now default and the servers that are listed first? I don’t think it is clear at all that they are the most popular because they are more enjoyable. I don’t think many are asking for 8 v 8 to be removed it just shouldn’t be the default hotjoin. If you want to pick up bad habits and pew pew bads all day long who am I to tell you not to do it.

To be fair, i always join 8 vs 8. 5 vs 5 hasn’t enough punch/crazy comebacks into it. Also if one team has a rank 60, and all others are normal rank, the rank 60 owning team will most likely win. With 8 vs 8 that rank 60 will be hunted down, unless he’s a cloack capture thief.

Also if i want my daily, it has to happen fast, and not ridiculously slow. 5 vs 5 is for me crazy slow. To slow. (unless blowout, but that’s not fun).

So i’ll put my voice to the 8 vs 8 here. Yes to 8 vs 8, no to 5 vs 5.