Guild Wars 2

Last match I was in a thief managed to kill steal the bosses on forest of niflhel twice in a row and it really ended our chances. To me it seems unfair that one guy can jump in, oneshot the boss when he’s 98% defeated already and claim the 25 points. You are against kill stealing everywhere else in gw2, so what’s the deal here guys?

EDIT: meant to add that if I were doing it I would say the kill should go to the team that did the most damage to him in the last 10 seconds or something along those lines, rather than the last bit of damage.

cheers for reading, have a good day :]

lol there are ways to prevent this just a matter of playing it would be lame if they removed that kill steals

Tilki.8520:

lol there are ways to prevent this just a matter of playing it would be lame if they removed that kill steals

they don’t allow it in any other part of the game.
Why should it be allowed here, even if you can avoid it?

Doesn’t make sense to have different values for the mobs in the pvp maps compared to all other mobs in the game.

Current method is perfect.

PvE where kill stealing is not possible is a concept of cooperation whereas PvP is competition. Therefore the ability to steal kills from the enemy team is absolutely fine.

Malicious.6742:

PvE where kill stealing is not possible is a concept of cooperation whereas PvP is competition. Therefore the ability to steal kills from the enemy team is absolutely fine.

I could accept both teams hitting them, and the most damage done wins.

or tagging, first one there gets the credit IF he dies.

But last damage done is about the lamest of all solutions.

No, it requires some thought and strategy. Alot of teams account for someone trying to steal so they send someone mid early game to slow them down or eliminate them from the equation.

It’s called using strategy, and the mechanic is fine.

the thing called map control prevents boss from stealing

Defektive.7283:

No, it requires some thought and strategy. Alot of teams account for someone trying to steal so they send someone mid early game to slow them down or eliminate them from the equation.

It’s called using strategy, and the mechanic is fine.

spvp and strategy?

In tpvp it would require more strategy if it worked on most damage done, or even on first tagged IF he can reset when the second team don’t go for killing him.

Last damage done is the one form that requires the least strategy of all 3.
Basically sneak around, wait and hit one big hit and hope you got the last bit.
Strategic? Yes, of course. But less so than the alternatives.

Most damage would require a real fight.

First damage, or tagging, would force resets on the bosses. After which the race is on again. Could go on for a while too.

Of all these, last damage done is the least strategic. Even IF it’s currently used strategically, than it still is the weakest of the options.

Working as intended and a perfectly valid tactic.

Though it is undoubtedly frustrating as hell when it happens (even worse if you put all that time into soloing it down), it’s a legitimate strategy. Curse the person’s name that stole that kill? Absolutely. Remove the ability to do it from the game? God, no.

ITT: People who have played MOBAs arguing with people who haven’t played MOBAs about the last hit mechanic.

this has been discussed before. the real problem is that people get butt-hurt when their boss is stolen and it never occurs to them to try and plan to prevent it — or god forbid actually try it themselves. there would be no point to having bosses that would be taken only by their side’s team.

It’s great how it is now. It allows for a well thought out team to make big, clutch plays.

Good for keeping the game dynamic, and entertaining to watch.

As stated it’s a strategy. Want to beat it? Have someone keep watch. Just like fighting dragon in LoL.

it frustrates me to no end how often people have no idea how to deal with preventing mob kill steals in tPvP. it’s really pretty simple:

1.) don’t engage the mob UNTIL the would-be gankers are dead. Which means don’t run straight up to him and think you’ll out-dps the ganker whenever he shows up. S/he’s counting on you thinking that. Just take a few seconds to wait and see who shows up. If no one’s there burn him down. If someone does come there’s nothing to gank because the boss is still at 100%. Just a pair of opponents waiting on him so they can claim their quick 5 points for their team and then kill the mob care free. super easy.

2.) don’t leave one person to take care of it by themselves. once a ganker shows up s/he’s then in a 2v1 situation which makes for uber easy steals. it also gets your home point stolen shortly after.

3.) you don’t have to kill it right away. go kill theirs instead. your home bunker can keep an eye out for anyone attempting to kill yours and easily create the situation in #2 above for his opponent.

good tips hackks

It’s not that I mind all that much by the way.
I just think it would open up a lot more strategic gameplay if another option were chosen, as well as that other option being fairer. And it would be more aligned with normal ‘tagging’ mechanics in this game.

3 reasons why i don’t really like that they picked this one.

of course each method can lead to strategic gameplay.
Picking another method would do that, just like the current one does.

The ability to kill steal is the only thing that makes PvE mobs not horrible in PvP.

As a thief that succesfully steals 75%+ of the NPC’s at the start of a match (free tournies), i would like to keep doing this <3. It’s a lot of fun and it makes the start of the match interesting! Also, good teams check their back and place those wells that fear or use other tricks to hinder me. If you could do just most damage, it would be a race :/ Also, you forget that u can also deal burst damage when the target is almost down. This is actually very effective because i always try to keep a certain distance and hide behind a rock or something. Based on how fast the NPC’s health go down, i decide to jump in or not. I mostly go in with Cloak & Dagger, Steal and then prepare for the final backstab (loads of damage so i can jump in pretty early). But if the enemy suddenly uses burst skills there is a big chance that i’m too late or barely get into range to use a quick “Steal.”

IDarko.4709:

As a thief that succesfully steals 75%+ of the NPC’s at the start of a match (free tournies), i would like to keep doing this <3. It’s a lot of fun and it makes the start of the match interesting! Also, good teams check their back and place those wells that fear or use other tricks to hinder me. If you could do just most damage, it would be a race :/ Also, you forget that u can also deal burst damage when the target is almost down. This is actually very effective because i always try to keep a certain distance and hide behind a rock or something. Based on how fast the NPC’s health go down, i decide to jump in or not. I mostly go in with Cloak & Dagger, Steal and then prepare for the final backstab (loads of damage so i can jump in pretty early). But if the enemy suddenly uses burst skills there is a big chance that i’m too late or barely get into range to use a quick “Steal.”

Can other professions do this as well?
Or is it mostly a thief thing?

This too is a factor for me when discussing what would be the most strategic option.

The streams I watched, happened not to show this particular mob stealing. That’s what you get with streams: you follow only one character around of course.
An issue for e-sport by the way: no total overview, but this aside.

In my own tpvp matches I was in the pug group: round one bye bye babies
I didn’t encounter it, but that says nothing seeing that it’s a pug.

So I wonder: can all professions do this as well?
Thiefs aren’t dominant in tpvp, so i actually assume others are good at it too.
But so far it seems mostly something a thief would pull of.

100b warriors, flamethrower engineers, anything with mass daze at last second to get last hit, or really anything with quickness — pop it at last second and gg

edit: there was a ranger skill with bow that did rapid attacks in short time. anything like that would be good

I think the strategy of getting last hit is fine, but I always kind of wonder to myself if the gameplay would benefit more from having the NPC’s spawn a 2 mins or so into the much rather than right away. That way you would focus strictly on capping first, and have to keep in mind positioning for each NPC rather than just gun for one and/or the other at the bell.

Current method really does suck…you should be awarded points based on how much damage you do.

With a thief’s burst + shadowstep and all the other long range gap closing techniques they have, it’s extremely hard to thwart a good thief from stilling the 25 points.

I don’t understand why there are PvE elements in these pvp maps anyways, bosses like this and sharks, sorry I thought I joined pvp to test my skills against players, not relive the jaws movie while someone whales on me.

@Chris: There are people that get good and play the game with strategies for every advantage possible. Then there are people that don’t want to win, but just play however they want.

milo.6942:

@Chris: There are people that get good and play the game with strategies for every advantage possible. Then there are people that don’t want to win, but just play however they want.

There are also really lame and cheap tactics placed in game modes that give certain classes a large advantage over others.

Tell me, how would you stop a thief who stealth runs in, then teleports to your boss at 5% life and one shots that 5% with their burst?

How would you do that without having to over enforce it with players which could put you at risk.

Thief has the ability to run faster, teleport with a shortbow attack, teleport with steal (if they have a target like…oh I dont know, a boss) , teleport with shadow step, and gap close with heart seeker….needless to say they can get their fast and burst 25 points away from your team + another buff for them.

My point is these bosses don’t make pvp better, introducing PvE elements into something that is supposed to be competitive PvP is a poor choice to say the least.

This expands on my point:
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html
There are no “cheap” tactics, only tactics you don’t fully take advantage of or prepare for.

milo.6942:

This expands on my point:
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html
There are no “cheap” tactics, only tactics you don’t fully take advantage of or prepare for.

if the mechanics would change, the tactics would change.
Every mechanic will lead to finding tactics that work the best.

In that regard there are indeed mechanics that are more fair than others.
The evened out mechanics lead to tactics to win, the uneven mechanics often lead to what people call ‘cheap tactics’.

Saying that any tactic that allows you to win, is good, isn’t the issue.
It’s finding those mechanics that are most balanced first, so that any following tactic would be the ‘least cheap’ if you will.

You have a point about the tactics, but it’s always the mechanic that has to be judged first.

I don’t argue that teams shouldn’t steal kills.
I argue that the mechanics could be more balanced than the current ones.
After that, the next cheap tactic will be made according to that mechanic, but it would be ‘less cheap’

Stealing is a legit tactic, but Quickness makes stealing trivial. I’ve stolen kills easily on just about every profession that has guaranteed Quickness.

Nerf Quickness and it would be more difficult.

Send one mid to cut off steal attempts.

Problem solved.

Defektive.7283:

Send one mid to cut off steal attempts.

Problem solved.

Just to be clear from my part:

I’m not in a pvp battle right now, so for me it’s less about the fact you can counter it or not.
I’m happy with all the tips of course, but this conversation isn’t just ‘how do I deal with this?’ for me.
Not knocking that you try to show how to handle it, I actually aprreciate that.

Pvp’ers talk about ‘the meta’ so often, well: this is meta…
Meaning: I’m trying to argue if the system could be improved, if it could be made fairer without being less strategic.

So far all I have heard someone argue is that a system of ‘most damage done’ would lead to a race, and he didn’t seem to like that (seeing his not smiling smily).
This is a valid argument.

I’m here to discuss alternatives and how they could be better or worse.
How they could be more even, more fair.
Strategies will always follow.

From an audience point of view as well:
kill stealing could be seen as exciting: ‘Coool, he pulled it of. In your faces!’
and it could be seen as unfair: ‘he can do that? Dam, that’s lame, isn’t this about pvp?’

So thanks for the tip, but that doesn’t ‘solve the problem’.
This is a forum after all, it’s meant for discussion.

In a real fight I won’t be the one saying ’let’s not do that, I’m not convinced the mechanic behind it is fair…’
Rest assured, I’ll just try to kill the kittenhing, or be in the middle cutting them of, as you suggest

What i always say about people critising a normal mechanic:

I feel sorry for people who just accept everything as it is, who are unwilling to question the status quo.

This is a discussion on a forum, it’s the correct place to critise normal mechanics.

Why the hostility?

The mechanic is fine. People that dislike it usually don’t plan on preventing or using it during matches and get mad when they feel cheated out of their points. You knew the mechanic, you knew what the enemy would do. Next time prepare better. It’s not at all impossible or even particularly difficult to stop an incoming thief. You just have to want to win.

The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. The game knows no rules of “honor” or of “cheapness.” The game only knows winning and losing.

Ok, you guys can’t think beyond the parctical level of ‘it is what it is’.

No offense, but bit useless to go on indeed.

Pvp’ers not understanding the meaning of meta, except when it’s about team compositions… bit odd.

I’ll stop pestering you with trying to hold an intelligent discussion about possible mechanics.

Milo, don’t write as if I was complaining because I didn’t win. It’s besides the point: I already explained that in a previous post.
I think I was very clear of what I tried to do here. No harm done if you can’t grasp that.

there is no unfairness in killstealing bosses. both teams have ways steal bosses and prevent it from stealed. that kill steal is the main difference between it and other maps and there is no unfairness in it you just need to think before play this is what makes game competitive

Defektive.7283:

Send one mid to cut off steal attempts.

Problem solved.

This would really cripple your team.

Problem not solved.

Kimbald I understand the discussion you’d like to have, but all proposals so far to change the boss mechanic have only reduced its dynamic to “each team gets their boss 95% of the time” Which is to say no team can ever gain an advantage, which then begs the question “why have bosses at all”.

Post in order to quote…

Can’t quote Milo, so writing it without:

now you’re talking.
This is the kind of arguments I was looking for.
I don’t mind standing corrected or being wrong, but I did mind the discusion always falling back to ‘it is what it is and now shut up’
(in a way of speaking, no one said it rude like that of course)

I can relate to the fact that any mechanic should avoid the bosses just being free points for each team.
It has to be challengable, and indeed not all options would do that.

That’s a very good argument.
Maybe there could be other mechanics that did that too, but I see how kill stealing provides that factor very well.

milo.6942:

Kimbald I understand the discussion you’d like to have, but all proposals so far to change the boss mechanic have only reduced its dynamic to “each team gets their boss 95% of the time” Which is to say no team can ever gain an advantage, which then begs the question “why have bosses at all”.

This is my partially my point…

WHY have any PvE bosses at all? This is a PvP match, PvE should not be in it what so ever. These bosses/sharks take away from the game so much.

I was a huge fan of old school Alterac Valley in WoW.
I’m just going to assume most know more or less what that was.

The reason I liked it, while many pvp’ers hated it, is because it wasn’t pvp for me.

It was the best pve instance woW ever made.
Imagine entering an open air dungeon (stretching it here, i know) where you would even be split up into 2 groups before going at all the npc mechanics… It was a great pve instance if ever there was one.

I only mention that here to say I can appreciate some mixtures of both.
But in the end I also think npc’s have little place in pvp matches.
I don’t mind them myself, but I only play casual. For competetive pvp I find it hard to see their real value.

That’s personal of course.

Well I’m glad I posted this up if even to get a general feeling of how others feel about this. So far the majority seems to be for keeping the stat quo, so I’m cool with that. I do think it’s good to discuss things like this though like Kimbald says, and just because you like something the way it is now doesn’t mean that there could not be something better in it’s place.

In this situation maybe you are right it is a valid tactic and all is well. All I’ll say is it certainly surprised me that it was possible, so maybe it should be written on the game info screen that pops up at the start.. something like: “score the final hit to claim the points”… It is a tiny change that eliminates any confusion (and therefor annoyance) for people who are just coming across this kill stealing strategy.

without the NPCs conquest matches would be extremely dull. it’s not like we lack for action and fighting because of them. if anything they’re just one more thing to fight over. winning strategies account for them. key word: strategy. surprisingly, there seems to be some opposition to the notion of strategy in a competition in this thread. pretty sure Anet will never regard these suggestions with any amount of seriousness.

I am still for removing PvE bosses from a “competitive” pvp instance.