Guild Wars 2

You must run the worst traits , build to get those numbers on you never seen that kind of damage anywhere in pvp, Im not gonna trust your screenshot sorry. From the screenshot it says your playing a warrior try to learn and use Endure Pain on skill and on trait for starters.

isendel i am sure u know that te guardian npc have the same toughness-hp as bunkers ? :P
a.k.a more chance to survive :P

Try an other npc , exept the guardian/necro :P

So I complained about thiefs being WAY OP, but I thought “well I have been victim to it, if I am going to have an opinion I better play the class and get a good look at whats going on”.

So I made one, took it to a few matches with the base build (the one it auto gives you the first time you make a char and join PVP, I think it was 25/30/ and a few points else where, but I got the impression is was veering towards glass cannon).

So I redid my traits (so wanted to say re-speced haha) to a more survival based build. I prefer that to start of with, then I can work on damage if I need it. Well, even with a seemingly less damage minded class I am pretty solid. In fact, my damage is on par with my warrior, and I am able to survive more. No reason to even bother with 2 sets of weapons, D/D will do fine enough. Sure if I wanted to I would get into the class more and get to some real skills. And thats the most annoying part of it all…

Whilst I enjoy my warrior and can play it pretty well now and clearly have more skill in, and the thief which is barely a day old and I am just eating anything that comes at me. Being mobbed will end you quick, but thats universal to all classes.

Heartseeker is the main problem I think. Its a spammable gap closer, and its does nice damage to boot as well. The whole “energy” system doesnt work that well in such a fast paced game. Its not like WoW (which I think its trying to copy), a fight is over MUCH quicker, so the thief has so many tricks to pull out HUGE damage and just stay on top of the enemy, not to mention the constant jumping and diving makes it so your not always easy to hit.

I think if you took away the silly mechanic and put in a easier to balance CD system like other classes, a lot of the problems would go away.

tOss.9024:

Navzar.2938:

Yes, but hopefully that next OP build doesn’t can’t do its whole chain in 1/2 a second.

A particular class that utilizes player awareness, and high, fast damage isn’t a new thing. Why are we acting like it is? If you avoid that 2-3 second burst tor average thief is an easy kill. A good thief can still put up a fight, though.

yes pray do tell how do i avoid that 2 second burst if i cant even see him coming?

after the first hit m either stunned, knocked down, blinded, or otherwise halfway dead, so pray do tell how exactly do i avoid something thats coming from a stealthed ganker that i wont even see coming?

NO CLASS should be able to global another class while incapacitated in 3 seconds, period, and thats not even mentioning they can reset the fight as many kittenimes as they want too

globalling was a problem in wow arenas, tot he point where they had to put resilience stat in and the dmg scaling has gone up so much that even resilience wont stop you from getting globaled

Luigio.3265:

tOss.9024:

Navzar.2938:

Yes, but hopefully that next OP build doesn’t can’t do its whole chain in 1/2 a second.

A particular class that utilizes player awareness, and high, fast damage isn’t a new thing. Why are we acting like it is? If you avoid that 2-3 second burst tor average thief is an easy kill. A good thief can still put up a fight, though.

yes pray do tell how do i avoid that 2 second burst if i cant even see him coming?

after the first hit m either stunned, knocked down, blinded, or otherwise halfway dead, so pray do tell how exactly do i avoid something thats coming from a stealthed ganker that i wont even see coming?

NO CLASS should be able to global another class while incapacitated in 3 seconds, period, and thats not even mentioning they can reset the fight as many kittenimes as they want too

globalling was a problem in wow arenas, tot he point where they had to put resilience stat in and the dmg scaling has gone up so much that even resilience wont stop you from getting globaled

Stuned -Stun break
Knocked Down – How does a thief knock down? Also Stun Break.
Blind – Blind impedes movement now?
Half-Dead – Stragglers and lone wolves are a Thief’s primary targets.

Also, BS Thieves can’t stealth before they do thier combo, so they meld their CnD with their Steal. And Shadow Steps don’t let you cross gaps or steep inclines, so unless the thief targetted you and hid around a corner, they should be visible before they strike. A good BS’er can apparently do it in one second or less, but since you said 2-3 seconds, I’m sorry, that’s kinda bad. Really bad. (Talking Warrior doesn’t need to Bull Rush you to land all his Hundred Blades bad.)

I recently started using macros with my thief. Now I can take at least 3/4 of someone’s health in under a second and kill them with one heartseeker. Contrary to what people say here, I have yet to see someone escape the first flurry. The only time they have a chance is if they are using a bunker build. In that case, I can usually just keep attacking them and stealthing away. Eventually I tear them down or teammates show up.

The more I play a thief, the more I can’t stop. All this power is addicting! Please don’t nerf the thief!

I just wanted to add one thing. I haven’t read the entire thread but I did read a good chunk and I think it’s absolutely hilarious that nearly everyone in defence of the current state of thieves states the same thing: you should have run with build X or you should have run with skill Y.

Let’s get one thing clear here: if you have to tailor your build away from the one you want to play simply because every time you join a game there are 3-4 thieves running the same build on each team and it’s literally the only way you can avoid being continuously stomped, something is wrong.

That’s not fun. That’s not good balance and it’s not good gameplay. Every other class should not have to adjust to one ridiculously overpowered spec. That absolutely ruins PvP.

It’s broken.

CakeOrDeath.4859:

I just wanted to add one thing. I haven’t read the entire thread but I did read a good chunk and I think it’s absolutely hilarious that nearly everyone in defence of the current state of thieves states the same thing: you should have run with build X or you should have run with skill Y.

Let’s get one thing clear here: if you have to tailor your build away from the one you want to play simply because every time you join a game there are 3-4 thieves running the same build on each team and it’s literally the only way you can avoid being continuously stomped, something is wrong.

That’s not fun. That’s not good balance and it’s not good gameplay. Every other class should not have to adjust to one ridiculously overpowered spec. That absolutely ruins PvP.

It’s broken.

By that logic, they should nerf condition damage and cc’s too because you’ll be wrecked by those builds if you aren’t carrying a stun break or condition removal. Not saying BS combo isn’t in need of adjustment. I just see flaws in your arguement.

Dual.8953:

By that logic, they should nerf condition damage and cc’s too because you’ll be wrecked by those builds if you aren’t carrying a stun break or condition removal. Not saying BS combo isn’t in need of adjustment. I just see flaws in your arguement.

I get your point, but the difference is that anyone with any interest in PvP will run with a stunbreak and a condition removal anyway: those are standard because so many different classes bring stuns and conditions to the table. And that’s how it should be: you run a build that can account for many different encounters.

I’m talking about needing to run a bunker build that you might not enjoy playing or that doesn’t suit your playstyle just to counter a single borked spec. Nobody likes being pigeonholed.

Its OP what else can be said. Same bs we have seen in every mmo since the start. We can argue here on how to counter, and how only good players can counter this, and regale each other in stories about how good we each are, and how great we are at countering the BS. That doesn’t change the fact its OP bullkitten now does it?

I love my P/D thief and blah blah I’m so good in pvp with it. Fact is if you use stealth than burst is a no no and if you have burst stealth should be a no no. I find it funny that the mmo that has seen the most amount of attention to detail and design in the last 5 years has failed to realize rule number one. Nerf the invisibility, burst, and/or stun lock in beta.

Say the OP sucks maybe hes not a good pvper it doesn’t change the fact that so many run this same kitteny build and everyone acts like they don’t know why. I scoff at any attempt to defend this. The quicker we get this nerf over with the quicker we get back to demanding the bugs be fixed and that the classes that actually need help get it.

I want some of what the advocates of such ridiculous damage are smoking.

CakeOrDeath.4859:

Dual.8953:

By that logic, they should nerf condition damage and cc’s too because you’ll be wrecked by those builds if you aren’t carrying a stun break or condition removal. Not saying BS combo isn’t in need of adjustment. I just see flaws in your arguement.

I get your point, but the difference is that anyone with any interest in PvP will run with a stunbreak and a condition removal anyway: those are standard because so many different classes bring stuns and conditions to the table. And that’s how it should be: you run a build that can account for many different encounters.

I’m talking about needing to run a bunker build that you might not enjoy playing or that doesn’t suit your playstyle just to counter a single borked spec. Nobody likes being pigeonholed.

Dual beat me to the point on conditions. But most people aren’t telling you to run a bunker build, they are just telling you to stop running glass cannon. (not you specifically, but as an abstract) I run an ele, without points in toughness. However, I have never dropped as quick as people describe here. As a matter of fact, unless I’ve already lost a good amount of my health I rarely have any troubles with a backstab thief.

TheGuy.3568:

Its OP what else can be said. Same bs we have seen in every mmo since the start. We can argue here on how to counter, and how only good players can counter this, and regale each other in stories about how good we each are, and how great we are at countering the BS. That doesn’t change the fact its OP bullkitten now does it?

I love my P/D thief and blah blah I’m so good in pvp with it. Fact is if you use stealth than burst is a no no and if you have burst stealth should be a no no. I find it funny that the mmo that has seen the most amount of attention to detail and design in the last 5 years has failed to realize rule number one. Nerf the invisibility, burst, and/or stun lock in beta.

Say the OP sucks maybe hes not a good pvper it doesn’t change the fact that so many run this same kitteny build and everyone acts like they don’t know why. I scoff at any attempt to defend this. The quicker we get this nerf over with the quicker we get back to demanding the bugs be fixed and that the classes that actually need help get it.

There are tons of classes in other mmos with stealth and burst, usually the stealth helps them survive and get close enough to do their burst because they melt when you focus them. (this holds true here in gw2 as well)
And, if you can come up with many ways to counter it how exactly is it OP? Overpowered means unbeatable, uncounterable, if it meant anything less the word Over would be different. The word overpowered as gotten thrown around so much in recent years that its used to describe “somewhat tough to beat.”

tOss.9024:

TheGuy.3568:

Its OP what else can be said. Same bs we have seen in every mmo since the start. We can argue here on how to counter, and how only good players can counter this, and regale each other in stories about how good we each are, and how great we are at countering the BS. That doesn’t change the fact its OP bullkitten now does it?

I love my P/D thief and blah blah I’m so good in pvp with it. Fact is if you use stealth than burst is a no no and if you have burst stealth should be a no no. I find it funny that the mmo that has seen the most amount of attention to detail and design in the last 5 years has failed to realize rule number one. Nerf the invisibility, burst, and/or stun lock in beta.

Say the OP sucks maybe hes not a good pvper it doesn’t change the fact that so many run this same kitteny build and everyone acts like they don’t know why. I scoff at any attempt to defend this. The quicker we get this nerf over with the quicker we get back to demanding the bugs be fixed and that the classes that actually need help get it.

There are tons of classes in other mmos with stealth and burst, usually the stealth helps them survive and get close enough to do their burst because they melt when you focus them. (this holds true here in gw2 as well)
And, if you can come up with many ways to counter it how exactly is it OP? Overpowered means unbeatable, uncounterable, if it meant anything less the word Over would be different. The word overpowered as gotten thrown around so much in recent years that its used to describe “somewhat tough to beat.”

But that isn’t true, because GW2 has Dodge. A well timed (or lucky) dodge can negate ANY amount of damage.

If we used your reasoning, the simple fact that dodging existed would mean it was technically impossible for anything to ever be too strong.

Sky.9347:

tOss.9024:

TheGuy.3568:

Its OP what else can be said. Same bs we have seen in every mmo since the start. We can argue here on how to counter, and how only good players can counter this, and regale each other in stories about how good we each are, and how great we are at countering the BS. That doesn’t change the fact its OP bullkitten now does it?

I love my P/D thief and blah blah I’m so good in pvp with it. Fact is if you use stealth than burst is a no no and if you have burst stealth should be a no no. I find it funny that the mmo that has seen the most amount of attention to detail and design in the last 5 years has failed to realize rule number one. Nerf the invisibility, burst, and/or stun lock in beta.

Say the OP sucks maybe hes not a good pvper it doesn’t change the fact that so many run this same kitteny build and everyone acts like they don’t know why. I scoff at any attempt to defend this. The quicker we get this nerf over with the quicker we get back to demanding the bugs be fixed and that the classes that actually need help get it.

There are tons of classes in other mmos with stealth and burst, usually the stealth helps them survive and get close enough to do their burst because they melt when you focus them. (this holds true here in gw2 as well)
And, if you can come up with many ways to counter it how exactly is it OP? Overpowered means unbeatable, uncounterable, if it meant anything less the word Over would be different. The word overpowered as gotten thrown around so much in recent years that its used to describe “somewhat tough to beat.”

But that isn’t true, because GW2 has Dodge. A well timed (or lucky) dodge can negate ANY amount of damage.

If we used your reasoning, the simple fact that dodging existed would mean it was technically impossible for anything to ever be too strong.

I said if there are several ways to counter it, not only if you could dodge it. Backstab can be countered with protection, gearing, other forms of damage mitigation, dodge, general situational awareness, distance gaining abilities+heal, there are a lot of options. The fact that dodge exists simply makes it even easier to deal with front loaded damage, it doesn’t harm balance.
Instead of picking at an argument to spin something your way, perhaps it’s best to read a post in it’s entirety and think critically before responding.

tOss.9024:

Sky.9347:

tOss.9024:

TheGuy.3568:

Its OP what else can be said. Same bs we have seen in every mmo since the start. We can argue here on how to counter, and how only good players can counter this, and regale each other in stories about how good we each are, and how great we are at countering the BS. That doesn’t change the fact its OP bullkitten now does it?

I love my P/D thief and blah blah I’m so good in pvp with it. Fact is if you use stealth than burst is a no no and if you have burst stealth should be a no no. I find it funny that the mmo that has seen the most amount of attention to detail and design in the last 5 years has failed to realize rule number one. Nerf the invisibility, burst, and/or stun lock in beta.

Say the OP sucks maybe hes not a good pvper it doesn’t change the fact that so many run this same kitteny build and everyone acts like they don’t know why. I scoff at any attempt to defend this. The quicker we get this nerf over with the quicker we get back to demanding the bugs be fixed and that the classes that actually need help get it.

There are tons of classes in other mmos with stealth and burst, usually the stealth helps them survive and get close enough to do their burst because they melt when you focus them. (this holds true here in gw2 as well)
And, if you can come up with many ways to counter it how exactly is it OP? Overpowered means unbeatable, uncounterable, if it meant anything less the word Over would be different. The word overpowered as gotten thrown around so much in recent years that its used to describe “somewhat tough to beat.”

But that isn’t true, because GW2 has Dodge. A well timed (or lucky) dodge can negate ANY amount of damage.

If we used your reasoning, the simple fact that dodging existed would mean it was technically impossible for anything to ever be too strong.

I said if there are several ways to counter it, not only if you could dodge it. Backstab can be countered with protection, gearing, other forms of damage mitigation, dodge, general situational awareness, distance gaining abilities+heal, there are a lot of options. The fact that dodge exists simply makes it even easier to deal with front loaded damage, it doesn’t harm balance.
Instead of picking at an argument to spin something your way, perhaps it’s best to read a post in it’s entirety and think critically before responding.

Like I said in OP….you know what why rehash this in a years time well be having this same conversation.

4:03-4:26 is pure gold

Like I have said before it’s just history. One backstab build vs every other and its like still people don’t get it. Trying to explain is nigh pointless.

TheGuy.3568:

tOss.9024:

Sky.9347:

tOss.9024:

TheGuy.3568:

Its OP what else can be said. Same bs we have seen in every mmo since the start. We can argue here on how to counter, and how only good players can counter this, and regale each other in stories about how good we each are, and how great we are at countering the BS. That doesn’t change the fact its OP bullkitten now does it?

I love my P/D thief and blah blah I’m so good in pvp with it. Fact is if you use stealth than burst is a no no and if you have burst stealth should be a no no. I find it funny that the mmo that has seen the most amount of attention to detail and design in the last 5 years has failed to realize rule number one. Nerf the invisibility, burst, and/or stun lock in beta.

Say the OP sucks maybe hes not a good pvper it doesn’t change the fact that so many run this same kitteny build and everyone acts like they don’t know why. I scoff at any attempt to defend this. The quicker we get this nerf over with the quicker we get back to demanding the bugs be fixed and that the classes that actually need help get it.

There are tons of classes in other mmos with stealth and burst, usually the stealth helps them survive and get close enough to do their burst because they melt when you focus them. (this holds true here in gw2 as well)
And, if you can come up with many ways to counter it how exactly is it OP? Overpowered means unbeatable, uncounterable, if it meant anything less the word Over would be different. The word overpowered as gotten thrown around so much in recent years that its used to describe “somewhat tough to beat.”

But that isn’t true, because GW2 has Dodge. A well timed (or lucky) dodge can negate ANY amount of damage.

If we used your reasoning, the simple fact that dodging existed would mean it was technically impossible for anything to ever be too strong.

I said if there are several ways to counter it, not only if you could dodge it. Backstab can be countered with protection, gearing, other forms of damage mitigation, dodge, general situational awareness, distance gaining abilities+heal, there are a lot of options. The fact that dodge exists simply makes it even easier to deal with front loaded damage, it doesn’t harm balance.
Instead of picking at an argument to spin something your way, perhaps it’s best to read a post in it’s entirety and think critically before responding.

Like I said in OP….you know what why rehash this in a years time well be having this same conversation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URQE8aGSSCU

Like I have said before it’s just history.

There are a lot of fundamental differences between a rogue and thief, and between WoW and Guild Wars in regards to balance.
Edit to respond to yours: One backstab build vs. every other? I’m not sure what you mean here, please elaborate. Backstab, if this is what you’re implying, is not successful against every build. Just because you, and some others, are having trouble countering the build doesn’t mean the people don’t “get it.” It simply means that some don’t have problems with it, and they are trying to explain why they don’t. The main issue here, in my opinion, is people sticking their fingers in their ears and yelling, “lalalala it’s op, I’m right you’re wrong lalalalaicanthearyou.”

tOss.9024:

TheGuy.3568:

tOss.9024:

Sky.9347:

tOss.9024:

TheGuy.3568:

Its OP what else can be said. Same bs we have seen in every mmo since the start. We can argue here on how to counter, and how only good players can counter this, and regale each other in stories about how good we each are, and how great we are at countering the BS. That doesn’t change the fact its OP bullkitten now does it?

I love my P/D thief and blah blah I’m so good in pvp with it. Fact is if you use stealth than burst is a no no and if you have burst stealth should be a no no. I find it funny that the mmo that has seen the most amount of attention to detail and design in the last 5 years has failed to realize rule number one. Nerf the invisibility, burst, and/or stun lock in beta.

Say the OP sucks maybe hes not a good pvper it doesn’t change the fact that so many run this same kitteny build and everyone acts like they don’t know why. I scoff at any attempt to defend this. The quicker we get this nerf over with the quicker we get back to demanding the bugs be fixed and that the classes that actually need help get it.

There are tons of classes in other mmos with stealth and burst, usually the stealth helps them survive and get close enough to do their burst because they melt when you focus them. (this holds true here in gw2 as well)
And, if you can come up with many ways to counter it how exactly is it OP? Overpowered means unbeatable, uncounterable, if it meant anything less the word Over would be different. The word overpowered as gotten thrown around so much in recent years that its used to describe “somewhat tough to beat.”

But that isn’t true, because GW2 has Dodge. A well timed (or lucky) dodge can negate ANY amount of damage.

If we used your reasoning, the simple fact that dodging existed would mean it was technically impossible for anything to ever be too strong.

I said if there are several ways to counter it, not only if you could dodge it. Backstab can be countered with protection, gearing, other forms of damage mitigation, dodge, general situational awareness, distance gaining abilities+heal, there are a lot of options. The fact that dodge exists simply makes it even easier to deal with front loaded damage, it doesn’t harm balance.
Instead of picking at an argument to spin something your way, perhaps it’s best to read a post in it’s entirety and think critically before responding.

Like I said in OP….you know what why rehash this in a years time well be having this same conversation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URQE8aGSSCU

Like I have said before it’s just history.

There are a lot of fundamental differences between a rogue and thief, and between WoW and Guild Wars in regards to balance.
Edit to respond to yours: One backstab build vs. every other? I’m not sure what you mean here, please elaborate. Backstab, if this is what you’re implying, is not successful against every build. Just because you, and some others, are having trouble countering the build doesn’t mean the people don’t “get it.” It simply means that some don’t have problems with it, and they are trying to explain why they don’t. The main issue here, in my opinion, is people sticking their fingers in their ears and yelling, “lalalala it’s op, I’m right you’re wrong lalalalaicanthearyou.”

The same could be said of the other side in the debate.

Just because there are ways to avoid being instantly killed, doesn’t mean such massive burst capability is good for the game

Reread that sentence please, so that you can understand the gravity of this situation.

tOss.9024:

And, if you can come up with many ways to counter it how exactly is it OP? Overpowered means unbeatable, uncounterable, if it meant anything less the word Over would be different. The word overpowered as gotten thrown around so much in recent years that its used to describe “somewhat tough to beat.”

You missed my point but that is Ok.

The video is there to illustrate that in its initial stages rogue classes have a strong tendency to be OP. Now you took “issue” with my use of the word OP as in overpowered. Afaik OP has never meant unbeatable. In fact akin to terms like overwhelm it just means to do something with more force than is needed.

Here’s a definition

overpowered past participle, past tense of o·ver·pow·er (Verb)
Verb:
Defeat or overcome with superior strength.
Be too intense for; overwhelm.

Right now the burst damage from back stab thief has a strong tendency to overpower other players.

To keep this very simple any class with too much front end or back end damage literally overpowers other classes.Honestly I am disgusted with all this talk. It would make more sense to nerf the dam build asap and see who dares QQ.

If you do choose to watch the video you might learn something about the personality and mindset of the common backstab rogue I mean thief.

Edit to address your edit.

“The main issue here, in my opinion, is people sticking their fingers in their ears and yelling, “lalalala it’s op, I’m right you’re wrong lalalalaicanthearyou.””

No I hear all the discussion loud and clear. However, just because I understand your point doesn’t mean your right. History is a real kitten. If you choose to learn from it you will avoid many of the pitfalls that your predecessors feel into. If you choose to ignore it you will face the same problems. right now in GW2 if anyone took a small amount of time a reviewed WoW or Warhammer even LOL Shaco SWToR you would find forums full of comments that stealth and burst are OP. It does not mean its always OP. It just so happens in this case it is OP. The requirements to dodge avoid or stop the burst is too high.

Hate to be ThatGuy but…

WorldofRoguecraft was made because of all the rogues crying that after the SS nerf, they were no longer viable in PvP. How can they kill if they can’t SS 5 times, then evis. In the video, you see how much control a rogue had in Vanilla over certain enemies and how evis being a flat damage, you don’t actually need weapons. There was nothing his victims could do in that video.

This isn’t the case with Thieves in GW2. Dodge rolling alone gives all classes the ability to mitigate incoming burst. Protection will let you survive versus the incoming thief wombo combo. All classes have a way to survive, whether it be traits, weapons skills, armor sigils, or amulets.

If you choose to play a glass cannon, then I suggest learning how to play against BS thieves. Have fast reflexes and know how to engage and react when engaged upon.

Also, a thief cannot do his wombo combo from stealth. The damage from mug will apply the revealed debuff.

TheGuy.3568:

tOss.9024:

And, if you can come up with many ways to counter it how exactly is it OP? Overpowered means unbeatable, uncounterable, if it meant anything less the word Over would be different. The word overpowered as gotten thrown around so much in recent years that its used to describe “somewhat tough to beat.”

You missed my point but that is Ok.

The video is there to illustrate that in its initial stages rogue classes have a strong tendency to be OP. Now you took “issue” with my use of the word OP as in overpowered. Afaik OP has never meant unbeatable. In fact akin to terms like overwhelm it just means to do something with more force than is needed.

Here’s a definition

overpowered past participle, past tense of o·ver·pow·er (Verb)
Verb:
Defeat or overcome with superior strength.
Be too intense for; overwhelm.

Right now the burst damage from back stab thief has a strong tendency to overpower other players.

To keep this very simple any class with too much front end or back end damage literally overpowers other classes.Honestly I am disgusted with all this talk. It would make more sense to nerf the dam build asap and see who dares QQ.

If you do choose to watch the video you might learn something about the personality and mindset of the common backstab rogue I mean thief.

Edit to address your edit.

“The main issue here, in my opinion, is people sticking their fingers in their ears and yelling, “lalalala it’s op, I’m right you’re wrong lalalalaicanthearyou.””

No I hear all the discussion loud and clear. However, just because I understand your point doesn’t mean your right. History is a real kitten. If you choose to learn from it you will avoid many of the pitfalls that your predecessors feel into. If you choose to ignore it you will face the same problems. right now in GW2 if anyone took a small amount of time a reviewed WoW or Warhammer even LOL Shaco SWToR you would find forums full of comments that stealth and burst are OP. It does not mean its always OP. It just so happens in this case it is OP. The requirements to dodge avoid or stop the burst is too high.

My definition of overpowered still stands, and your pasting the definition only supports my previous statement. Sure, people my be initially overwhelmed because they don’t understand how to counter it, but the fact still stands it is easily countered. So it can appear overpowered, when it is not. There is a difference between appearance and reality. You can just go swinging the nerf bat like crazy when it’s not a game breaking skill. Proper counters, or even having one other person with you when you get jumped makes a backstab thief a joke. The requirements to stop the burst are very, very low. Simply turning your character when the thief steals can buy you time, or make the thief mess up his combo. Even if he does down you, a teammate can either rez you, or down the thief before he stomps you. (trust me, they melt fast)
If it wasn’t so easy to counter, I would be looking at this argument completely different.
Oh, and there is no pitfall for me to fall into, I play an ele.

Sky.9347:

tOss.9024:

TheGuy.3568:

tOss.9024:

Sky.9347:

tOss.9024:

TheGuy.3568:

Its OP what else can be said. Same bs we have seen in every mmo since the start. We can argue here on how to counter, and how only good players can counter this, and regale each other in stories about how good we each are, and how great we are at countering the BS. That doesn’t change the fact its OP bullkitten now does it?

I love my P/D thief and blah blah I’m so good in pvp with it. Fact is if you use stealth than burst is a no no and if you have burst stealth should be a no no. I find it funny that the mmo that has seen the most amount of attention to detail and design in the last 5 years has failed to realize rule number one. Nerf the invisibility, burst, and/or stun lock in beta.

Say the OP sucks maybe hes not a good pvper it doesn’t change the fact that so many run this same kitteny build and everyone acts like they don’t know why. I scoff at any attempt to defend this. The quicker we get this nerf over with the quicker we get back to demanding the bugs be fixed and that the classes that actually need help get it.

There are tons of classes in other mmos with stealth and burst, usually the stealth helps them survive and get close enough to do their burst because they melt when you focus them. (this holds true here in gw2 as well)
And, if you can come up with many ways to counter it how exactly is it OP? Overpowered means unbeatable, uncounterable, if it meant anything less the word Over would be different. The word overpowered as gotten thrown around so much in recent years that its used to describe “somewhat tough to beat.”

But that isn’t true, because GW2 has Dodge. A well timed (or lucky) dodge can negate ANY amount of damage.

If we used your reasoning, the simple fact that dodging existed would mean it was technically impossible for anything to ever be too strong.

I said if there are several ways to counter it, not only if you could dodge it. Backstab can be countered with protection, gearing, other forms of damage mitigation, dodge, general situational awareness, distance gaining abilities+heal, there are a lot of options. The fact that dodge exists simply makes it even easier to deal with front loaded damage, it doesn’t harm balance.
Instead of picking at an argument to spin something your way, perhaps it’s best to read a post in it’s entirety and think critically before responding.

Like I said in OP….you know what why rehash this in a years time well be having this same conversation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URQE8aGSSCU

Like I have said before it’s just history.

There are a lot of fundamental differences between a rogue and thief, and between WoW and Guild Wars in regards to balance.
Edit to respond to yours: One backstab build vs. every other? I’m not sure what you mean here, please elaborate. Backstab, if this is what you’re implying, is not successful against every build. Just because you, and some others, are having trouble countering the build doesn’t mean the people don’t “get it.” It simply means that some don’t have problems with it, and they are trying to explain why they don’t. The main issue here, in my opinion, is people sticking their fingers in their ears and yelling, “lalalala it’s op, I’m right you’re wrong lalalalaicanthearyou.”

The same could be said of the other side in the debate.

Just because there are ways to avoid being instantly killed, doesn’t mean such massive burst capability is good for the game

Reread that sentence please, so that you can understand the gravity of this situation.

So explain to me why the thief burst is not ok while other classes burst is? 100b cool yes?

tOss.9024:

My definition of overpowered still stands

It does not I quoted merriam webster’s dictionary lol. I used the actual definition not one I made up.

tOss.9024:

and your pasting the definition only supports my previous statement. Sure, people my be initially overwhelmed because they don’t understand how to counter it, but the fact still stands it is easily countered. So it can appear overpowered, when it is not. There is a difference between appearance and reality. You can just go swinging the nerf bat like crazy when it’s not a game breaking skill. Proper counters, or even having one other person with you when you get jumped makes a backstab thief a joke.

This tells me you haven’t really played thief. First off as long as you have cnd you can burst someone standing right next to some one and go back into stealth to finish them off without interruption.

tOss.9024:

The requirements to stop the burst are very, very low. Simply turning your character when the thief steals can buy you time, or make the thief mess up his combo. Even if he does down you, a teammate can either rez you, or down the thief before he stomps you. (trust me, they melt fast)

This tells me you don’t PvP or at least against anyone good. The example you give is atrocious. Most smart thieves venom (Basilisk in particular) before they burst you so your stunned. You need a port or a stun breaker to stop it. If you have enough time to turn your camera and face the other way (assuming no quickness was popped) and eat the 2 HSS coming your way, then your playing against a crap thief and your on a bunker build.

What shocks me even more from the person claiming thief is not OP is that your best strategy requires 2 PEOPLE LOL. Funny story this kitten doesn’t work either. You can literally down someone from stealth.

tOss.9024:

If it wasn’t so easy to counter, I would be looking at this argument completely different.
Oh, and there is no pitfall for me to fall into, I play an ele.

Funny thing I play ele and thief P/D. I have repeated said (check my post history if you like) that its can be countered. The thing to remember is just because it can be countered doesn’t mean it balanced. Bunkers can be countered too. Fact is a BS thief can toss down more damage than any one in a short period of time and has all the tools to chase down the target. On top of that stealth (Combat kittening Stealth) gives it one of the best defensive tools at the same time.

If anyone is willing I would love to hear a justification of having that much front end damage from stealth without the word “counter” in the argument. Its not good enough.

/edit

So explain to me why the thief burst is not ok while other classes burst is? 100b cool yes?

Warrior no stealth. 100b even with quickness slow as hell. You always see it coming. If he misses he turns to glass. Best he could possibly do is switch to shield and block. And here some game knowledge if he can down you with 100b flat out hes not speced into the lower trees no weapon swap cd reduction. Once he goes shield and he block ends its game over. If anything is on him its over. Burning bleed anything its over. If its not over he wasn’t speced for glass you would have to eat every hit of 100b. Cast time without quickness 3 1/2 seconds. that’s more than double the time of the backstab burst and that just the dps part of the warrior chain. to hit 100b you need to immobile the target. So your probably going to bullrush bolas. This does very little dps. Os the only dangerous part is the 100b which can be rolled out of considering 100b roots.

BTW if a thief get evade on backstab stealth doesn’t break you can go right back into it thus rolling wont do kitten. Another funny thing if his damage doesn’t break stealth you can go right back into it no cool down.

100b vs backstab is not even comparable.

It does not I quoted merriam webster’s dictionary lol. I used the actual definition not one I made up

Yes, it does. Mine is parallel to the one given.

This tells me you haven’t really played thief. First off as long as you have cnd you can burst someone standing right next to some one and go back into stealth to finish them off without interruption.

If you successfully land your attack and it breaks stealth you cannot reenter stealth. Using cnd uses up enough initiative to not be able to use cnd for a short time, and the stealth from cnd does not last as long as the finishing animation nor does it protect you against knockbacks or damage.
[/quote]

This tells me you don’t PvP or at least against anyone good. The example you give is atrocious. Most smart thieves venom (Basilisk in particular) before they burst you so your stunned. You need a port or a stun breaker to stop it. If you have enough time to turn your camera and face the other way (assuming no quickness was popped) and eat the 2 HSS coming your way, then your playing against a crap thief and your on a bunker build.

Yes, they can use venom, and yes it would require a stun breaker to get out of that. I will admit the example was not the best. However, with a stun break you still escape easily -no different the the always compared 100b. No, you don’t have to play a bunker build.

What shocks me even more from the person claiming thief is not OP is that your best strategy requires 2 PEOPLE LOL. Funny story this kitten doesn’t work either. You can literally down someone from stealth.

You misunderstand, that wasn’t the best example. That is simply if all else fails, pretty sure I said “even if he does down you.” You should have a teammate with you anyways. Again, stealth doesn’t save a thief from CC, it only masks them.

Funny thing I play ele and thief P/D. I have repeated said (check my post history if you like) that its can be countered. The thing to remember is just because it can be countered doesn’t mean it balanced. Bunkers can be countered too. Fact is a BS thief can toss down more damage than any one in a short period of time and has all the tools to chase down the target. On top of that stealth (Combat kittening Stealth) gives it one of the best defensive tools at the same time.

If anyone is willing I would love to hear a justification of having that much front end damage from stealth without the word “counter” in the argument. Its not good enough.

Why isn’t counter good enough? That is, after all, a core aspect of pvp is it not? A player attempts something, you counter and return with something else. PvP isn’t exchanging blows until someone comes out the victory, it’s countering one another.

Warrior no stealth. 100b even with quickness slow as hell. You always see it coming. If he misses he turns to glass. Best he could possibly do is switch to shield and block. And here some game knowledge if he can down you with 100b flat out hes not speced into the lower trees no weapon swap cd reduction. Once he goes shield and he block ends its game over. If anything is on him its over. Burning bleed anything its over. If its not over he wasn’t speced for glass you would have to eat every hit of 100b. Cast time without quickness 3 1/2 seconds. that’s more than double the time of the backstab burst and that just the dps part of the warrior chain. to hit 100b you need to immobile the target. So your probably going to bullrush bolas. This does very little dps. Os the only dangerous part is the 100b which can be rolled out of considering 100b roots.

BTW if a thief get evade on backstab stealth doesn’t break you can go right back into it thus rolling wont do kitten. Another funny thing if his damage doesn’t break stealth you can go right back into it no cool down.

100b vs backstab is not even comparable.

You made a point here, if he misses he turns to glass. A BS thief is always glass.
The point of evading and gaining distance on the thief is to let the very short duration cnd wear off. This works pretty well in my experience.

Look, I’ll admit that backstab does very high damage, no one can deny it does. (though hits displayed on the forums are often due to things going just right for the thief) My point is simply that I don’t think that, overall, a nerf to backstab would do much for the game as a whole. It can be countered, so it’s not impossible to stand up against. I don’t have an issue with high damage, so long as it can be negated-and there are downsides to running it. (which in my view it is)

Kuroin.1703:

Sky.9347:

tOss.9024:

TheGuy.3568:

tOss.9024:

Sky.9347:

tOss.9024:

TheGuy.3568:

Its OP what else can be said. Same bs we have seen in every mmo since the start. We can argue here on how to counter, and how only good players can counter this, and regale each other in stories about how good we each are, and how great we are at countering the BS. That doesn’t change the fact its OP bullkitten now does it?

I love my P/D thief and blah blah I’m so good in pvp with it. Fact is if you use stealth than burst is a no no and if you have burst stealth should be a no no. I find it funny that the mmo that has seen the most amount of attention to detail and design in the last 5 years has failed to realize rule number one. Nerf the invisibility, burst, and/or stun lock in beta.

Say the OP sucks maybe hes not a good pvper it doesn’t change the fact that so many run this same kitteny build and everyone acts like they don’t know why. I scoff at any attempt to defend this. The quicker we get this nerf over with the quicker we get back to demanding the bugs be fixed and that the classes that actually need help get it.

There are tons of classes in other mmos with stealth and burst, usually the stealth helps them survive and get close enough to do their burst because they melt when you focus them. (this holds true here in gw2 as well)
And, if you can come up with many ways to counter it how exactly is it OP? Overpowered means unbeatable, uncounterable, if it meant anything less the word Over would be different. The word overpowered as gotten thrown around so much in recent years that its used to describe “somewhat tough to beat.”

But that isn’t true, because GW2 has Dodge. A well timed (or lucky) dodge can negate ANY amount of damage.

If we used your reasoning, the simple fact that dodging existed would mean it was technically impossible for anything to ever be too strong.

I said if there are several ways to counter it, not only if you could dodge it. Backstab can be countered with protection, gearing, other forms of damage mitigation, dodge, general situational awareness, distance gaining abilities+heal, there are a lot of options. The fact that dodge exists simply makes it even easier to deal with front loaded damage, it doesn’t harm balance.
Instead of picking at an argument to spin something your way, perhaps it’s best to read a post in it’s entirety and think critically before responding.

Like I said in OP….you know what why rehash this in a years time well be having this same conversation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URQE8aGSSCU

Like I have said before it’s just history.

There are a lot of fundamental differences between a rogue and thief, and between WoW and Guild Wars in regards to balance.
Edit to respond to yours: One backstab build vs. every other? I’m not sure what you mean here, please elaborate. Backstab, if this is what you’re implying, is not successful against every build. Just because you, and some others, are having trouble countering the build doesn’t mean the people don’t “get it.” It simply means that some don’t have problems with it, and they are trying to explain why they don’t. The main issue here, in my opinion, is people sticking their fingers in their ears and yelling, “lalalala it’s op, I’m right you’re wrong lalalalaicanthearyou.”

The same could be said of the other side in the debate.

Just because there are ways to avoid being instantly killed, doesn’t mean such massive burst capability is good for the game

Reread that sentence please, so that you can understand the gravity of this situation.

So explain to me why the thief burst is not ok while other classes burst is? 100b cool yes?

Because other burst requires setup.
If it’s ever the case that this isn’t true, then I don’t think it’s good for the game.
Just my opinion, obviously.

Surely there is a simple way to reduce the top end damage of backstab while maintaining the mid-range so it doesn’t become useless.

@tOss
“it’s not impossible to stand up against” – “I will admit the example was not the best”

Because warrior’s burst takes 4.5sec without quicnkess, whereas thief burst takes .5sec without quickness. Bull’s is also a much slower gap closer, making it easier to dodge (even with quickness).
Anyway, Anet said they were taking a look at all burst damage, not just thief.

@tOss
“it’s not impossible to stand up against” – “I will admit the example was not the best”

Bill O’ Rielly, is that you? Because you’re nitpicking like a pro. I said that the example I gave initially, in one part of the discussion, was not ideal. I did not state that all of my examples were not the “best.” I was only talking about the turning -without- a stun breaker. This doesn’t forfeit any of the arguments I’ve made thus far.

I don’t understand why everyone keeps saying thieves are Glass Cannon’s.

That term does not apply to stealthers in MMO’s never has, because stealth negates any penalties that come with being a glass cannon.

Glass Cannon’s are extremely high dpsers with low survivability, Stealther’s are a completely different catagory that has never been attributed to Glass Cannon.

An EQ Wizard is a Glass Cannon, A WoW mage is a Glass Cannon, anyone in GW2 specing no toughness or vitality and high dps is a Glass Cannon EXCEPT Thieves and Mesmers they are stealthers.

You cannot be a Glass Cannon and escape from 5 attackers with one press of a button that is not a Glass Cannon because you suffer none of the penalties that a Glass Cannon class faces.

The difference between GW2 and other games is that Thieves are not all that squishy. Even full dps they can have respectable hit points and toughness/armor. The baseline damage coeffecients for some of their abilities are so high they don’t need to spec as heavy into power/precision as other classes may.

The problem with them is that there is no balance to risk vs. reward. There is really no counter to a stealth insta-gib unless you just get lucky and have enough HP to survive the intitial busrt and react with CC/CC break fast enough. Even if you do, that Theif just hit you for 8-12k, you are effectively limited to CC and healing, the other team if coordinated, will FF and you will be dead. Even if your team jumps on that Theif, he at least traded a kill, at most will stealth up/heal, and do it again.

Every MMO I have played, stealth classes always have high reward but high risk. In AoC , an Assasin could melt a clothie in in seconds, however, if a tank or melee dps jumped on them, they would be dead just as quick.

In GW2, I know they opted not for rock, paper counters, but they really do need to look at the damage coeffecients on some of the Theif abilites. Lowering the coeffecients would make them have to spec more into Power and Prescision, which would give them the risk vs. reward rather than reward and reward. I do not enjoy having to go bunker on my Elementalist because 3-5 out of the 10 players are Theives. If people defend a class that 30-50% of the population mains now in Minis, then saying something is up with the class has merit. Usually, where I come from, it means when a class surges like that it’s a Flavor of the Month noob class where it has 1 or 2 gimmick-like abilities that result in 1-3 shots.

Any class that gives guaraunteed kills as long as you do X even if it’s 1 kill per death needs looking at…there should always be risk for being bad.

I’ve had way less problem with BS thieves than I have with 100b warriors, If I spot a thief I simply retreat and anticipate when they are going to reach me so I can roll and be ready for a stunbreak. if they miss their cloak and dagger they lost a lot of initiative + their elite most likely at that point just drop aoes if they stealth otherwise just mash them to pieces before they have time to execute another combo.

Suctum.6912:

The difference between GW2 and other games is that Thieves are not all that squishy. Even full dps they can have respectable hit points and toughness/armor. The baseline damage coeffecients for some of their abilities are so high they don’t need to spec as heavy into power/precision as other classes may.

The problem with them is that there is no balance to risk vs. reward. There is really no counter to a stealth insta-gib unless you just get lucky and have enough HP to survive the intitial busrt and react with CC/CC break fast enough. Even if you do, that Theif just hit you for 8-12k, you are effectively limited to CC and healing, the other team if coordinated, will FF and you will be dead. Even if your team jumps on that Theif, he at least traded a kill, at most will stealth up/heal, and do it again.

Any class that gives guaraunteed kills as long as you do X even if it’s 1 kill per death needs looking at…there should always be risk for being bad.

You do realize when you say “There is no counter unless….” then that means there is a counter and you’ve just debunked your own theory.

Stealth, unlike stealth in pretty much every other MMORPG, is timed. You can’t sit in it forever. Do you honestly have trouble counting to 3(4) or 10(11)? Let alone, and I cannot stress this enough, you cannot burst someone from stealth. That’s not how it works.

Your entire post is shown to have absolutely no knowledge of a class. You sound like the same people who cry about shatter mesmers and 100b warriors. You don’t want to learn how to counter them, you just want it nerfed so you actually don’t have to pay attention. Just run around in a circle dropping bombs and dodging with perma swift/vigor.

A thief is guaranteed a kill vs others if they either don’t know how to fight 1v1 or don’t pay attention. Just as how a shatter mesmer and 100b warrior is guaranteed a kill. If your team isn’t paying attention a shatter mesmer and 100b warrior can down more than one person. In fact, a guardian GS pull into a shatter/100b can spell death for your entire team. A thief, unfortunately, doesn’t have that advantage.

But if they only added something in this game to prevent you from taking high burst damage. Something that reduced it by say….33%? And even went a step further that when you lose 100% of your HP, you go into this…“downed state” in which you’re still able to fight and be res’d. That way, even if some random glass cannon blows you up, you can be healed up and get back in the fight.

That would be a good idea.

knight.8926:

I seriously died in like 1.5 sec and couldn’t even react to it and I consider myself having good reflexes. Took about 19k hp in 1.5 sec. I’m sure you’ll like the 12k backstab there. and if you look up you’ll see 5k and another 5k from c/d and steal. This needs a fix seriously.

You’r a mesmer losing to a thief? Not good mate =S Practice and find a better build.

If it takes you more than 1.5s to react to something…that is actually pretty poor reflex wise. 1.5 seconds is actually pretty long, when you consider your reaction is just moving your finger to a key and pressing it.

@DAAYS

Agian great delsuional thief defender that shows zero logic and uses even less facts this stealth is worse than stealth in any other pvp game.

In any other MMO once you break stealth your vulnerable and have only 1 ability to restealth and other classes have ways to stop you from going stealth like mark and reveal type abilities. You cannot re-enter stealth over and over agian. An aoe’s always hit stealthers in every game, so that arguement that players can be hit by stealth in this game are null and void. You would also be thrown out of stealth if you had any form of dot on you. Damage broke stealth.

And in GW2 you can perma stealth as a thief lol where do you come up with this. With steal, CnD, blinding powder, Hide in Shadows and shadow Refuge you can stay invisible as long as you want, run around the entire map invisible if you want. You choose to fight when and where you want just like perma stealth in another game how many video’s do you want to see of players staying stealth indefinitely. One guy stayed stealthed for over an hour while picking of players in a raid.

Id rather perma-stealth anyday then allow a thief to re-enter stealth endless times during combat.

Fellknight.4820:

@DAAYS

Agian great delsuional thief defender that shows zero logic and uses even less facts this stealth is worse than stealth in any other pvp game.
.

Zero logic?

Telling people they should learn mechanics of other classes, so that when engaged, they know what those abilities do, its strengths/weaknesses, and how to fight is now considered illogical? Developing a battleplan is illogical now?

Less facts?

Stealth in GW2 is timed. That’s a fact. It will only last for a certain period based on what skill is used. And no where did I say that stealth was more powerful or weaker in GW2 compared to other MMORPG’s.

You seem to be very good at being very bad at reading comprehension.

Haven’t followed this thread but I have video of Daays killing me in .9 seconds on my ele with valkire amulet, from full to dead. Oh and even though I pressed my stunbreak (mistform) before the backstab it still didn’t go off in time (shows the button press before the blow lands)

And I think other times where he killed me without even rendering before I was dead.
It’s not just daays of course but he’s one of the better theives out there that can catch me.

Thief burst is so insane I can’t even be upset with it. Oh wait, yeah I can lol

Prince.3682:

Haven’t followed this thread but I have video of Daays killing me in .9 seconds on my ele with valkire amulet, from full to dead. Oh and even though I pressed my stunbreak (mistform) before the backstab it still didn’t go off in time (shows the button press before the blow lands)

And I think other times where he killed me without even rendering before I was dead.
It’s not just daays of course but he’s one of the better theives out there that can catch me.

Thief burst is so insane I can’t even be upset with it. Oh wait, yeah I can lol

why do you think daays happens to be one of the most vocal supporters of burst in its current state, because he is using it as a crutch.

labotimy.2439:

why do you think daays happens to be one of the most vocal supporters of burst in its current state, because he is using it as a crutch.

Because I see what will happen once burst is removed.

That Conquest is about point control. And with the ability to kill people quickly removed, the game will turn into mass tanks with KB’s and roots.

There’s already teams that run 4 bunkers with mass KB’s on Kyhlo. It’s extremely difficult to play against. It’s also extremely annoying. That they don’t even attempt to kill you. Just keep you off point and live.

Find it odd you talk about crutches, where the biggest crutch in any game is a tank class that doesn’t require fast reflexes or decision making. There’s a reason why everyone in this game can play a bunker guardian. There’s also a reason why very few people enjoy playing one.

BS thieves don’t fix bunkers.
Though I do agree that bunkers need some serious reworks as well.

Any DOT damage should prevent stealthing. Other MMOs have learned this fact. ANET is like 10 yrs behind the 8-ball=)

Joasher, while it doesn’t stop sleath,DoT damage does allow you to see where the enemy is from the red numbers coming off him.

Daays.4317:

labotimy.2439:

why do you think daays happens to be one of the most vocal supporters of burst in its current state, because he is using it as a crutch.

Because I see what will happen once burst is removed.

That Conquest is about point control. And with the ability to kill people quickly removed, the game will turn into mass tanks with KB’s and roots.

There’s already teams that run 4 bunkers with mass KB’s on Kyhlo. It’s extremely difficult to play against. It’s also extremely annoying. That they don’t even attempt to kill you. Just keep you off point and live.

Find it odd you talk about crutches, where the biggest crutch in any game is a tank class that doesn’t require fast reflexes or decision making. There’s a reason why everyone in this game can play a bunker guardian. There’s also a reason why very few people enjoy playing one.

again getting it wrong. tanks in pvp have always been a support class with a focus on battlefield awareness. they are the first into the fight, typically will direct it, and are the last to die. most pvp mmo’s i have played a tank in they were a damage absorber and generally had multiple ways to redirect damage to themselves or debuff the enemies output, this requires alot of skill since you must be aware of your teammates, enemies, positioning, and spike damage much more then any other single archetype.

granted not all tanks are the same in every game, my rogue tank in rift focused on mobility and harassment to agitate enemies into focusing me, whereas my black orc in war was an immovable object that mitigate damage directly off my dps/healers through “guard” which had to be swapped between mates to be effective, and required constant monitoring of hp bars similar to a healer playstyle.

in gw2 tanks have simply devolved into point holders, the mechanic of the tank it seems has regressed in this game, and all of it cannot simply be blamed on the map mechanic. this is a fundamental design flaw that arose from the “holy trinity” crusade anet went on when developing individual professions, and has been compounded by flaws in its original design leading boons to be too powerful. an example of this can be seen in boons like protection and retaliation which are most effective in large doses. you would not see team wide damage mitigation of 30% or more with 100% uptime in other mmo’s, this leads to a more passive playstyle and thus results in bunker builds. there is no need to be proactive in the use of mitigation and hp management, there are no healers and the damage miti’s are pretty much passive with the massive up time.

in other mmo’s if you were low on hp and in decently organized group you could expect 2 or more support players to come to your aid, in gw2 you press 6. the stripping of healers and tanks from the design of this game has resulted in creation of the so called bunker builds that revolve around regressed tank and healer mechanics on an individual level. this explains why you see 3+ bunker builds in tourny teams, this is simply the result of flawed design. if you had 1 “tank” on a team capable of PROACTIVELY managing damage mitigation for all of his mate’s, you wouldnt see as many bunker builds being run imo.

changes to functionality and mechanic of boons would remedy a lot of this, like making abilities that would put a 50% protection boon on an ally with a moderate duration, and a team wide protection buff with 30% mitigation and a shorter duration. both of these abilities could be balanced easily through cooldowns and duration changes, and would benefit the bunker meta by making it more team based and proactive. you wouldnt see nearly as much “hurr durr i survived all 5 enemies assault on my point for 10 minutes straight”, instead you would see “woot i kept my team alive through a team fight, resulting in wiping the enemy and taking the point”. changes like this would also allow burst being toned down so that ttk wasnt 2 seconds or less, this would lead to complex “dances” in team fights where focus fire/support could be called for, and it could continually go either way and take up to 5+ minutes to get a victory result. this is what good pvp is all about, not the “hurr durr i blow you up in 2 seconds” or the “hurr durr i survived all 5 enemies assault on my point for 10 minutes straight” we see currently in the meta.

im done ranting, and pretty much spelled out what i expect out of a quality team pvp game.

Can’t wait for the nov 15 patch. PVP needs alot of love, features and balance from the devs, to entice new players and to make games more fun. No newbie would enjoy getting killed in the time he takes to blink.

Few things -

1. Stealth in this game is considerably more powerful than stealth in many other MMO’s.

The ability to constantly weave in and out of stealth in the middle of combat is way stronger than having perma stealth out of combat and then being stuck out of stealth once you engage with the potential ability to re-enter stealth by blowing a longish cd. Pair this with the amount of visual noise in a given GW2 team fight and the number of AI elements that can exist on screen and the constant target dropping becomes a very real advantage.

Damage not breaking stealth is also pretty huge.

2. re: removal of burst and the resulting impact on point control -

I agree with the general point being made. However, there are better solutions than fostering the existence of sub-second TTK from a single source.

- Reduce the effectiveness of tanks by re-evaluating self-healing potential in the offending builds. Keep the relative ability of a bunker to outlast a single player, but make it progressively more difficult to survive a focused assault from multiple sources for very long.

- Implement diminishing returns for cc across the board.

- Implement a system wherein control of a node swings based on the number of players on the node from both teams. This way, a bunker holding off multiple players by himself will eventually lose the node anyway. The exact time required to neut a node in this fashion can be adjusted as necessary.

- Design larger maps and/or adjust portal functionality to increase the risk period for bunkers who are solo tanking multiple enemy players. Combined with some of the other suggestions, this can give teams more feasible windows of opportunity to turn matches around.

There are any number of ways around turtling – insane TTK is one of the least desirable imo.

Noctred.6732:

Few things -

1. Stealth in this game is considerably more powerful than stealth in many other MMO’s.

The ability to constantly weave in and out of stealth in the middle of combat is way stronger than having perma stealth out of combat and then being stuck out of stealth once you engage with the potential ability to re-enter stealth by blowing a longish cd.
Damage not breaking stealth is also pretty huge.

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Great points. It is true that many MMOs need to rebalance the assassian class after release. I remember when DAOC was released. Assassians could one shot people and stay in stealth.

Also worth noting is that several of the current paid streamers (namely Powerr, Xeph, Phantaram, and some others) regularly complain about or [negatively] comment on backstab and/or dancing dagger damage after getting instagibbed and/or DD trolled while trying to revive someone.

It happens to everyone, at all levels of play.

It’s counterable, but when it happens in the middle of a teamfight there’s often very little counter-play involved. It’s a binary mechanic and most people have realized that by now.

Suctum.6912:

Even full dps they can have respectable hit points and toughness/armor.

So you call 13.8k hp and 1.9k def with no def buffs, no aegis and no condition removal respectable for survivability? Are you trolling or what?

are people really defending backstab spikes? My main is a thief and even I think that crap is OP. There is no reason you should be able to kill another player that fast. an 8k crit once in a while is acceptable. That kind of damage should not be sustainable over such a short period of time though. Throwing in added survivability with stealth abilities and pairing it with a shortbow and a skilled thief can get out of pretty much any situation unless hes being heavily focused. How anyone can possibly sit there and defend this is beyond me. This is nothing more than the flavor of the month.

Apparently anet agrees because im 99.99% positive gaile or one of the other reps made a post in response to another topic like this stating that they are currently investigating thief burst damage(and probably burst damage in general). My guess is that a massive nerf is incoming. Advice to all you bursty thieves out there. Prepare for it by learning some other builds.

They can all roll mind wrack mesmers, hb wars, condition damage thives or maybe granade burst eng…and still own people harder than before with BS And crying will restart all over again…..and so on….so you’ve better to nerf every damage dealing skill in this game, but anyway someone would still cry about it..

Thief’s main defense is mobility and stealth (plus rendering issues). Even 10,000 hp thief is a lot more survivable than most classes.

Stealth provides better damage mitigation than aegis, plus when combined with mobility it affords thief to disengage at will.

I really think big issue with thieves is that they don’t have to commit to an attack. Something went wrong? Simply Abort! Abort! and try again.

I think GW2 can use anti-stealth field. We have anti-ranged attack field, we have anti-AOE field, why not anti-stealth?