Guild Wars 2

A picture says it far more eloquently than I ever could but this is just one problem:

As many as five to eight in any sPvP game but it’s mostly eight to six with several afk’ers and that’s without adding the other inequities like Rangers being useless unless surrounded by others – they don’t stand a chance against any single character combination.

It makes me upset that two players on one side and one player on the other in many of my games tonight in sPvP were afk’ers and it made the side that had those who weren’t playing lose badly.

We are losing glory points for many reasons, but how do we stop the afk’er who just sits there and does nothing, gets no points and ruins the balance that is already unbalanced in so many other ways?

And just look at the screenshots… Eight to six? Four to six? I’ve seen five to eight… this isn’t right for any pvp in any game.

AFK’ers do get kicked out when innactive.
What can also be possible is that they are affected by the “stuck at the loading screen” bug and refuse to leave. Nonetheless, they are also considered as being innactive and ejected from the game (happened to me once when i refused to ALT+F4).

hot join is just a hot join, its not supposed to be fair matches, its supposed to be a quick play for fun, for test or whatever… and autobalance stop working when 1 team reaches 400 or something like it, thats right

problem is that there is no other option to get really fair match, i hope they add ratings and some rated mode asap…

There are actually people such as me who enjoy imbalance because I think of it as handicap mode.

8v8 hotjoin is not a fit yardstick for balancing.
8v8 hotjoin is not a good measuring tool for balancing.
8v8 hotjoin is just that: hotjoin. Jump in, troll, relax, walk out. It’s not competitive.

In an ideal world you’d have 100% fair games every time. However, fixing this 8v8 hotjoins should not be a priority. Get matchmaking and/or ladder, which would actually rekindle interest in a dying pvp scene.

Evan Lesh.3295:

These screenshots are all at the end of a game. Players don’t get autobalanced towards the end of matches so that people don’t get forced onto a losing team. Of course this doesn’t do anything for afk players. Maybe the afk timer needs to be shortened?

The same results of those screen shots can be captured at the beginning or middle of the game.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Pyrial.2917:

Evan Lesh.3295:

These screenshots are all at the end of a game. Players don’t get autobalanced towards the end of matches so that people don’t get forced onto a losing team. Of course this doesn’t do anything for afk players. Maybe the afk timer needs to be shortened?

The same results of those screen shots can be captured at the beginning or middle of the game.

Then autobalance would/should have kicked in. Are you saying there is a bug with autobalance? Is it possible you checked the scoreboard after someone left, and before the autobalance happened?

I don’t know if there is a bug, I know that when people get auto balanced out they leave the game and then people join back in and the teams aren’t balanced (just as in the above) Some people leave when they’re auto’d off of their friends team and try to rejoin again.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Pyrial.2917:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Pyrial.2917:

Evan Lesh.3295:

These screenshots are all at the end of a game. Players don’t get autobalanced towards the end of matches so that people don’t get forced onto a losing team. Of course this doesn’t do anything for afk players. Maybe the afk timer needs to be shortened?

The same results of those screen shots can be captured at the beginning or middle of the game.

Then autobalance would/should have kicked in. Are you saying there is a bug with autobalance? Is it possible you checked the scoreboard after someone left, and before the autobalance happened?

I don’t know if there is a bug, I know that when people get auto balanced out they leave the game and then people join back in and the teams aren’t balanced (just as in the above) Some people leave when they’re auto’d off of their friends team and try to rejoin again.

It may just be an unfortunate result of the volatility of pugs

idea. give the ability for the players to report others for being afk, but put checks/balances into that system so that it cannot be abused, like only your own team can report you afk and it takes a certain number of reports to make the game check if that player is actually afk or not like seeing if they have done anything in there combat log and or for how long. then let it boot the afk player to the mists

edit: also to add to that idea have it put a debuff on the player that gets reported that counts down and gives that player a small amount of time to start playing or get into combat before it kicks you to make sure if your really afk or not

Evan Lesh.3295:

Pyrial.2917:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Pyrial.2917:

Evan Lesh.3295:

These screenshots are all at the end of a game. Players don’t get autobalanced towards the end of matches so that people don’t get forced onto a losing team. Of course this doesn’t do anything for afk players. Maybe the afk timer needs to be shortened?

The same results of those screen shots can be captured at the beginning or middle of the game.

Then autobalance would/should have kicked in. Are you saying there is a bug with autobalance? Is it possible you checked the scoreboard after someone left, and before the autobalance happened?

I don’t know if there is a bug, I know that when people get auto balanced out they leave the game and then people join back in and the teams aren’t balanced (just as in the above) Some people leave when they’re auto’d off of their friends team and try to rejoin again.

It may just be an unfortunate result of the volatility of pugs

I disagree, it’s the unfortunate result of there not being any penalty for leaving. People who are auto balanced to the losing side and then leaving only to requeue somewhere else is what is causing this whole issue.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Pyrial.2917:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Pyrial.2917:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Pyrial.2917:

Evan Lesh.3295:

These screenshots are all at the end of a game. Players don’t get autobalanced towards the end of matches so that people don’t get forced onto a losing team. Of course this doesn’t do anything for afk players. Maybe the afk timer needs to be shortened?

The same results of those screen shots can be captured at the beginning or middle of the game.

Then autobalance would/should have kicked in. Are you saying there is a bug with autobalance? Is it possible you checked the scoreboard after someone left, and before the autobalance happened?

I don’t know if there is a bug, I know that when people get auto balanced out they leave the game and then people join back in and the teams aren’t balanced (just as in the above) Some people leave when they’re auto’d off of their friends team and try to rejoin again.

It may just be an unfortunate result of the volatility of pugs

I disagree, it’s the unfortunate result of there not being any penalty for leaving. People who are auto balanced to the losing side and then leaving only to requeue somewhere else is what is causing this whole issue.

Maybe we need to call out better the fact that you still get the win bonus. And hot-join games aren’t meant to have penalties for things like leaving in the same way you don’t get a penalty for leaving a TF2 match.

Do you agree or disagree that hotjoin is currently in a state where winning is not incentivised? So, don’t you agree that putting a higher premium on winning would cause people to stay more?

Currently, since it’s only about personal glory gain, people leave with no care at all for the score screen. If people had a large incentive to win (big glory gain for winning or significant multiplier for winning) then people wouldn’t be so care-free about leaving. Currently, if I need 100 glory for a chest or token or whatever, I hop in a hot-join, I get my 100 and I leave. There should be a system in place that makes me think twice about that. If a leaving penalty isn’t that incentive, then a staying bonus should be.

I hope you and the devs can see why many of us find this an issue. Currently, from what I’ve gathered, your reason for making hotjoin a “hop-in/hop-out, no real need to be concerned with winning” game mode is you want new players to be eased in the game, I feel that this does the exact opposite. Many new players try this game mode out and then get the feeling that winning is of no importance in this game. Many leave before even wetting their palate with tournaments.

Sincerely,

Felivear.

Edit: Why not also consider making your glory gain pool up but not actually distribute until the game is over? If you have to leave a game, it’s totally understandable, but your 120 glory that you’ve accumulated doesn’t go with you until you stay until the end. These all seem like logical solutions to me, but maybe I am missing some big barrier that you have that stands in the way of you implementing them.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Not being a designer, I’m not sure what the best call is, but I like your suggestions! Here are some things to keep in mind:
Minimum win bonus could help, but encourages AFK (need to solve that as well).
Better win multiplier could work as long as the scoring system gives incentive for conquest play.
Nothing made me more angry in BF2142 than when the game or my computer crashed and I lost all my progress from that match.

Indeed, there are definitely draw backs to a system that doesn’t reward you until the end, but how many times did that actually occur? When it does happen, it’s a large pain, but it doesn’t happen often. On the other hand in GW2, almost every match is effected by people leaving the game. Also, in battlefield2142, the matches spanned quite a long time. In GW2, we’re talking about losing out on a couple hundred glory and maybe 3-7 minutes of work for a not-so-often computer crash.

So, I’m glad you like the idea and hopefully some simple solution can be implemented that will cause people to a) stay in the game and b) actually try to play conquest instead of team death match (which is mostly how hotjoins are played currently).

Edit: Another side-effect of having no real incentive for winning is that communication is moot in hot-join. Hot-join should serve a few main purposes in my opinion (in no order):

a) Get new players acclimated to the PvP experience and understanding the rules and strategies of conquest
b) Give players a place to quickly get into the rush of battle
c) Provide a place where people can form communities and allegiances that they can then take into tournaments
d) A place to gain glory

I think as currently implemented, hot-join does well at b & d, but does not even remotely tackle a&c. Again, I think adding larger incentives for winning organically cause a&c to be addressed.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Pyrial.2917:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Pyrial.2917:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Pyrial.2917:

Evan Lesh.3295:

These screenshots are all at the end of a game. Players don’t get autobalanced towards the end of matches so that people don’t get forced onto a losing team. Of course this doesn’t do anything for afk players. Maybe the afk timer needs to be shortened?

The same results of those screen shots can be captured at the beginning or middle of the game.

Then autobalance would/should have kicked in. Are you saying there is a bug with autobalance? Is it possible you checked the scoreboard after someone left, and before the autobalance happened?

I don’t know if there is a bug, I know that when people get auto balanced out they leave the game and then people join back in and the teams aren’t balanced (just as in the above) Some people leave when they’re auto’d off of their friends team and try to rejoin again.

It may just be an unfortunate result of the volatility of pugs

I disagree, it’s the unfortunate result of there not being any penalty for leaving. People who are auto balanced to the losing side and then leaving only to requeue somewhere else is what is causing this whole issue.

Maybe we need to call out better the fact that you still get the win bonus. And hot-join games aren’t meant to have penalties for things like leaving in the same way you don’t get a penalty for leaving a TF2 match.

personally I think there should be a bit more incentive to win like new unlockable stuff or a chance to win crafting components after a series of won matches. I feel a lacking sense of challenge vs. reward, like i’m never competing for something.

the reward system in tf2 is the same but different in a lot of subtle ways because there are certain items really hard to get that people would kill for in that game, which i think Anet should learn to do. In tf2 you can unlock rewards by crafting, playing or acheivments, but you can also unlock these items by paying for them which is purely optional. on top of this a lot of the new content for the game is actually designed by the community on the steam work shop and sold in the games cash shop.

so in that conclusion i don’t think its just the nature of the hotjoin mechanic alone but the reward system and lack of incentives as well, so making items that require participation or reward it would be a cool idea

if your intent was to simply come out with a matchmaking system to cater to the most casual sense of pvp, that’s ok and I personally would be all for it, i just wish there was more game modes or types that differentiated them selves and gave the pvp’er a broader scope of challenges and how far and hard hes willing to play.

something that says OK! I can que up for spvp or tpvp for some casual pvp and just kinda play around or get the feel for a build I’m trying out maybe just play around with my freinds and just talk in w/e voip I use.

OR

I can also que for the real deal that gives me better rewards that can only be unlocked by playing these modes, something based on a personal or team rating system that punishes me for failure but rewards me for success such as certain rewards that can only be achieved with certain ratings, like arena’s or guild vs guild
heck I would love to see a dota style game mode based on a team rating. there is paid tournaments but I cant really count those because they reward failure =(.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Not being a designer, I’m not sure what the best call is, but I like your suggestions! Here are some things to keep in mind:
Minimum win bonus could help, but encourages AFK (need to solve that as well).
Better win multiplier could work as long as the scoring system gives incentive for conquest play.
Nothing made me more angry in BF2142 than when the game or my computer crashed and I lost all my progress from that match.

i once lost everything in that game
had a fully unlocked assault and engineer then pc crashed some issues with my account and lost all my upgrades and rank =(

after that i looked at the ceiling …looked back at my pc then continued to play lol.

You may also want to check the criteria for which team a new joining player appears on. Let’s say you’ve got a game with 3vs3 players (in a 5vs5 game), blue team in the lead with 200 – 50 points. The new player that arrives shouldn’t then join the blue team imho, but rather the red team, to help the (at the time) loosing side.

Also, try even out classes more when they join a match, if this would be possible. This is for hotjoin spvp only, of course.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Pyrial.2917:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Pyrial.2917:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Pyrial.2917:

Evan Lesh.3295:

These screenshots are all at the end of a game. Players don’t get autobalanced towards the end of matches so that people don’t get forced onto a losing team. Of course this doesn’t do anything for afk players. Maybe the afk timer needs to be shortened?

The same results of those screen shots can be captured at the beginning or middle of the game.

Then autobalance would/should have kicked in. Are you saying there is a bug with autobalance? Is it possible you checked the scoreboard after someone left, and before the autobalance happened?

I don’t know if there is a bug, I know that when people get auto balanced out they leave the game and then people join back in and the teams aren’t balanced (just as in the above) Some people leave when they’re auto’d off of their friends team and try to rejoin again.

It may just be an unfortunate result of the volatility of pugs

I disagree, it’s the unfortunate result of there not being any penalty for leaving. People who are auto balanced to the losing side and then leaving only to requeue somewhere else is what is causing this whole issue.

Maybe we need to call out better the fact that you still get the win bonus. And hot-join games aren’t meant to have penalties for things like leaving in the same way you don’t get a penalty for leaving a TF2 match.

What does the bloody win bonus have to do with anything?

Also auto balance should not move the highest scorer or two from the winning team to the losing team.

the whole hot join/auto balance system just sucks, period. This is not a FPS and does not play like one. Why people are making comparisons to TF2 and BF is just laughable. Matches take a short period of time and the glory grind is endless so crying about potentially losing out on a minuscule amount of glory because you may get DC’d is quite funny.

You should do like other MMOs and do single matches that start when teams are full, allow you to queue for the map you want (so I don’t have to leave a game every time I hit capricorn) and people who leave get a 30+ minute deserter debuff. And I played Rift for a while and never got deserter debuff for my comp crashing or getting DC’d they allowed a grace period that gave you plenty of time to re-join the match you were in.

Also there is no penalty for quitting tournament matches either, have had many matches where as soon as they realize it’s a premade or even partial premade people log off for 10 mins then come back leaving our team to a 5v4 steamrolling.

Sprawl.3891:

the whole hot join/auto balance system just sucks, period. This is not a FPS and does not play like one. Why people are making comparisons to TF2 and BF is just laughable. Matches take a short period of time and the glory grind is endless so crying about potentially losing out on a minuscule amount of glory because you may get DC’d is quite funny.

Nobody, other than Evan pointing out to consider that as a possible issue, is complaining about losing glory due to DC. So, not sure where you are deriving such comedic pleasure.

We could always include a kicking option (with a majority vote)? I’ve seen it implemented and it works well—some times. They are abusive moments though..

Sprawl.3891:

the whole hot join/auto balance system just sucks, period. This is not a FPS and does not play like one. Why people are making comparisons to TF2 and BF is just laughable. Matches take a short period of time and the glory grind is endless so crying about potentially losing out on a minuscule amount of glory because you may get DC’d is quite funny.

You should do like other MMOs and do single matches that start when teams are full, allow you to queue for the map you want (so I don’t have to leave a game every time I hit capricorn) and people who leave get a 30+ minute deserter debuff. And I played Rift for a while and never got deserter debuff for my comp crashing or getting DC’d they allowed a grace period that gave you plenty of time to re-join the match you were in.

Also there is no penalty for quitting tournament matches either, have had many matches where as soon as they realize it’s a premade or even partial premade people log off for 10 mins then come back leaving our team to a 5v4 steamrolling.

Exactly. The whole idea of mimicking some kind of FPS is why GW2 PvP failed so badly. It’s an MMORPG not FPS. 5 vs 8 in an FPS is totally fine. Camp a good position and you can head shot a lot of people. 5 vs 8 in an MMORPG will get you steamrolled and spawn camped.

felivear.1536:

Sprawl.3891:

the whole hot join/auto balance system just sucks, period. This is not a FPS and does not play like one. Why people are making comparisons to TF2 and BF is just laughable. Matches take a short period of time and the glory grind is endless so crying about potentially losing out on a minuscule amount of glory because you may get DC’d is quite funny.

Nobody, other than Evan pointing out to consider that as a possible issue, is complaining about losing glory due to DC. So, not sure where you are deriving such comedic pleasure.

well that’s what made it so funny. a dev mentioning some thing with zero relevance like it would affect their own game design lol.

Sprawl.3891:

felivear.1536:

Sprawl.3891:

the whole hot join/auto balance system just sucks, period. This is not a FPS and does not play like one. Why people are making comparisons to TF2 and BF is just laughable. Matches take a short period of time and the glory grind is endless so crying about potentially losing out on a minuscule amount of glory because you may get DC’d is quite funny.

Nobody, other than Evan pointing out to consider that as a possible issue, is complaining about losing glory due to DC. So, not sure where you are deriving such comedic pleasure.

well that’s what made it so funny. a dev mentioning some thing with zero relevance like it would affect their own game design lol.

Mate he meant that, if they make system, that will not award glory untill the end of game, people would leave less probably, which i got to agree to some point.
However after rank 30 i am not afraid of losing glory from 1 game as it is such a small part of what i need to make its silly.

Now about fixing this:

Some people want to duel/team up and leave the match if they end up in same/diffrent team then their friend.
Way to fix: Custom server/arena where people could do what they want, with each other. It should not award glory though.

2nd problem is people are getting stomped, by another better, more efficient team, unable to gain glory they change server/leave game.
Way to fix: Autobalance at start of game by players rating(some system, like ELO, but rank would suffice too for now).

3rd problem: People while waiting for free/paid touraments to start join hotjoin to do something while waiting.
Way to fix: Players while quequed can only access certain servers(with other quequed people and people who join such servers themselfes)

Pyrial.2917:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Pyrial.2917:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Pyrial.2917:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Pyrial.2917:

Evan Lesh.3295:

These screenshots are all at the end of a game. Players don’t get autobalanced towards the end of matches so that people don’t get forced onto a losing team. Of course this doesn’t do anything for afk players. Maybe the afk timer needs to be shortened?

The same results of those screen shots can be captured at the beginning or middle of the game.

Then autobalance would/should have kicked in. Are you saying there is a bug with autobalance? Is it possible you checked the scoreboard after someone left, and before the autobalance happened?

I don’t know if there is a bug, I know that when people get auto balanced out they leave the game and then people join back in and the teams aren’t balanced (just as in the above) Some people leave when they’re auto’d off of their friends team and try to rejoin again.

It may just be an unfortunate result of the volatility of pugs

I disagree, it’s the unfortunate result of there not being any penalty for leaving. People who are auto balanced to the losing side and then leaving only to requeue somewhere else is what is causing this whole issue.

Maybe we need to call out better the fact that you still get the win bonus. And hot-join games aren’t meant to have penalties for things like leaving in the same way you don’t get a penalty for leaving a TF2 match.

What does the bloody win bonus have to do with anything?

Also auto balance should not move the highest scorer or two from the winning team to the losing team.

People would be more likely to swap to the losing side if they knew they would keep the win bonus. You also get a 5 glory bonus for volunteering to swap.

And yes, it should never swap the highest scorer unless he volunteers.

I don’t really feel the OP’s pain when playing spvp hotjoin- the balancing of the number of team members seems fine. Seems to work better than any other mmo I’ve played in terms of afkers, overall balance, etc (I had one game that went 500-0 but out of 1,300 games or so I’d call that an outlier).

It gets annoying when you get a run of several losing matches and then get stuck in loading screen of death when your team is on a roll, but we don’t have to relyi on points to be competative (awesome!) so its no biggy in the grand scheme of things.

I would LOVE a votekick option and I was always saying we should have one in Guild Wars.

Vayra.3290:

Pyrial.2917:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Pyrial.2917:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Pyrial.2917:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Pyrial.2917:

Evan Lesh.3295:

These screenshots are all at the end of a game. Players don’t get autobalanced towards the end of matches so that people don’t get forced onto a losing team. Of course this doesn’t do anything for afk players. Maybe the afk timer needs to be shortened?

The same results of those screen shots can be captured at the beginning or middle of the game.

Then autobalance would/should have kicked in. Are you saying there is a bug with autobalance? Is it possible you checked the scoreboard after someone left, and before the autobalance happened?

I don’t know if there is a bug, I know that when people get auto balanced out they leave the game and then people join back in and the teams aren’t balanced (just as in the above) Some people leave when they’re auto’d off of their friends team and try to rejoin again.

It may just be an unfortunate result of the volatility of pugs

I disagree, it’s the unfortunate result of there not being any penalty for leaving. People who are auto balanced to the losing side and then leaving only to requeue somewhere else is what is causing this whole issue.

Maybe we need to call out better the fact that you still get the win bonus. And hot-join games aren’t meant to have penalties for things like leaving in the same way you don’t get a penalty for leaving a TF2 match.

What does the bloody win bonus have to do with anything?

Also auto balance should not move the highest scorer or two from the winning team to the losing team.

People would be more likely to swap to the losing side if they knew they would keep the win bonus. You also get a 5 glory bonus for volunteering to swap.

And yes, it should never swap the highest scorer unless he volunteers.

Gaining points for winning doesn’t mean anything in this game. The only you can play for is to win.

felivear.1536:

Currently, since it’s only about personal glory gain, people leave with no care at all for the score screen. If people had a large incentive to win (big glory gain for winning or significant multiplier for winning) then people wouldn’t be so care-free about leaving. Currently, if I need 100 glory for a chest or token or whatever, I hop in a hot-join, I get my 100 and I leave. There should be a system in place that makes me think twice about that. If a leaving penalty isn’t that incentive, then a staying bonus should be.

While I think there needs to be a bit more incentive for a win in hotjoin, you do have to keep in mind there is fallout to such a change. If you make the win bonus larger, you increase the incentive for players on the losing team to abandon a match when their team falls behind.

I’d suggest not only giving winners a “win bonus,” but decreasing the glory gained per kill and adding a “completion bonus.” To give an example:

Current System

Player Score = Current Reward Level
Win Bonus = 0.5 * Player Score
Completion Bonus = 0

Proposed System

Player Score = 0.67 * Current Reward Level
Win Bonus = 1 * Player Score
Completion Bonus = 0.50 * Player Score

Both teams receive the completion bonus, but only the winning teams (and auto balance players) receive the Win Bonus. Losing teams will receive the same total number of points as under the current system (0.67 + 0.67 * 0.5 = 1) while winning teams earn slightly more than before (0.67 + 0.67 + 0.67 * 0.5 = 1.67 as opposed to 1 + 1 * 0.5 = 1.5). This prevents AFKing from being a method of farming glory as it’s still percentage based. Players who leave before the end of a match receive 33% less of a reward which is enough of an incentive to make staying worthwhile but not so big a loss that a player who absolutely has to go or is DC’d would worry about the lost glory. Perhaps most importantly, that Win Bonus starts to actually look meaningful to players, and might tip the scales to the point where it’s more advantageous to try for the victory instead of just farming their own glory.

My suggestion: Rank sPvP Hot-Join servers, give the option when press “Play Now” to actually be placed on a server where players are in same level range. That will motivate a lot of folk to put more “heart” into this. Easy to implement and cost effective (resource wise) – less frustrating for everyone.

I only have few over 1000 games played, BUT I often saw a lot of low level guys being put to face a team formed by players over pvp level 30, or teams of thieves and Mesmer against rest of the world. What I’m saying is that, the devs should look for the reasons of these afks and not for a quick solution.

Bottom line: you need to identify the root of all these AFKers and hostility that I witnessed, lately in hot-join:

• it might be class balance (Hot-Join is the paradise for Mesmer/thieves)
• it might be lack of motivation (currently PvP level has no meaning….and no the armor restrictions don’t count)
• it might be the team balance (class stacking, high level team vs low level team, etc)

I have a lot more to say on the subject, but I’m afraid I wont be able to keep it in the “forum rules” if fellow players will bring the “hot-join is to test builds” argument.

Matchmaking option for hotjoin possible at all? If the issue with matchmaking is groups who want to stay together, then queue them with groups of similar skill and # of players. New solo players who join these “group sessions” get factored in when they join and get assigned to the statistically weakest team? Works for consoles and any other game that forgoes the server browser system, right?

Evan Lesh.3295:

Maybe the afk timer needs to be shortened?

It does. Being kicked from going afk is no big deal because matches are short and can quickly be joined anyway.15 second timeout would be preferable.