Guild Wars 2

SO i was under the impression Anet was trying to move away from this crap Bunker style meta! I guess not nothing has changed.

Just play one of the Meta scrapper or tempest and you can practically carry your entire team such fun.

(edited to make what im trying to say more clear)

I think we need to be more specific and say tempest/scrapper. Without scrapper engi is actually pretty well balanced. I can’t say the same for ele cause I suck at it so I have no idea whether it’s balanced or not. Honestly you can carry with anything you’re good at. It’s not limited to those 2 classes as I’ve carried on thief, daredevil, chrono, Mesmer, dh, reaper, etc. Yes the unkillable stuff needs to go away but there should still be some bunker/tank presence in pvp in order to promote balanced gameplay (I.E. avoiding the 1 shot festival we had a year ago)

yes i do mean scrapper and tempest.

At lest that meta was fast paced and fun and not this stale boring games play bunker meta brings.

Yes the game play is boring. But compared to last season there have been great improvements to the gameplay and hopefully they continue to take the right steps towards finding the ideal balance of bunker, bruiser, and dps.

If I had to place blame on where it went wrong, I’d blame it on the creation of heal focused specializations. Originally the game was designed with the intent of every class being self reliant, having their own heals and utilities to provide whatever they needed. The game wasn’t designed to have healers and boon bots. If they reduce base heals drastically (increase scaling as a result) they force people to invest stats to get heals and such.

There’s also the issue that comes with scrapper having a full evade 3 leap on hammer that lets them heal to full without heal power. Things like that need to go away then they can actually balance the game.

Hmmm, my attempts at carrying entire teams in ranked as a scrapper haven’t worked out so well. In fact my team is much better served by Necros, Druids and DH’s, we settled on only one scrapper who does support like provide swiftness to afforementioned druids.

Ario.8964:

Yes the game play is boring. But compared to last season there have been great improvements to the gameplay and hopefully they continue to take the right steps towards finding the ideal balance of bunker, bruiser, and dps.

If I had to place blame on where it went wrong, I’d blame it on the creation of heal focused specializations. Originally the game was designed with the intent of every class being self reliant, having their own heals and utilities to provide whatever they needed. The game wasn’t designed to have healers and boon bots. If they reduce base heals drastically (increase scaling as a result) they force people to invest stats to get heals and such.

There’s also the issue that comes with scrapper having a full evade 3 leap on hammer that lets them heal to full without heal power. Things like that need to go away then they can actually balance the game.

Don’t you have to somehow manage to land all your leaps in a water field? And anyone can heal to full in a water field if you just have a leap or blast finisher. It just requires a vague definition of how much damage you were at to start with.

But to my point, when someone pops water, you can CC them then…. or move out of the area of the water field denying them the leap finish right?

grayskull.2367:

SO i was under the impression Anet was trying to move away from this crap Bunker style meta! I guess not nothing has changed.

play a Elementalist or Engineer and you to can carry your entire team such fun.

Say META scrapper and META tempest plz. Stop including me and the build I want to play in your grotesque generalizations. So tired of being lumped with all the other tempest despite being parsecs away from their level of unkillable…

Okay, let’s clear up a few misconceptions.

1) Scrapper is not a bunker; it’s a bruiser with strong point-fighting ability. Bunkers do a lot more than just hold a point (think tempest/druid level team heals). Tempestmight classify as a bunker, but it has some easy counters (especially boon-strip reaper, CC-lockdown, etc).

2) Most classes have defensively/healing oriented specializations, some of which are not even elite. The “problem” with tempests and scrappers (and, frankly, druids) is that their spec lines synergize so well with their other defensively oriented lines (alchemy and inventions for scrapper; water, earth, and arcane for tempest; nature magic, beast mastery, and wilderness survival for druids). Part of the trade-off in this is that it typically gimps their damage output (at least in tempest’s case) while drastically improving survivability. Here again, though, there are ways of countering. Some of these require coordination with a teammate (unless a player is very skilled, you should be winning a 2v1), but that makes sense: bunkers hold points and require resources (bodies) to remove.

3) Scrapper hammer leap is not a full evade; you can interrupt it, hit through it, etc. It’s a great utility skill, but it’s not like, for comparison, blurred frenzy. It’s more like ranger great sword leap. Additionally, it’s possible to bait a scrapper into using its defensive skills and then bursting them down. It’s a tough trick, to be sure, but it’s completely doable. Also, scrappers typically have a little bonus healing power just by having regeneration up, so, yeah, there’s that, too.

4) The real problem is that you have defensively oriented builds that can still put out quite a bit of damage. Scrapper can do this, druid can do this (thanks to bristleback and smokescale), and tempest…well, tempest not so much. Part of the issue here, I think, is just learn to play: you can easily kite a scrapper, and locking down a druid hurts its ability to sustain more than the pet damage you are taking (or it can, anyway). The problem is that node-centered combat forces you into difficult situations when engaging these professions. They are still winnable, but they require caution and patience (much like fighting a reaper).

Final remarks: if these professions are giving you trouble in a team fight, focus them down first (especially tempests), or alternate focus between that target and a squishier one to pressure the enemy team. If you are fighting them 1v1 on point…Why are you doing that? Your focus early match, generally speaking, should be to hold your home point and mid. If a tempest or scrapper is bunkering home, just don’t engage them without a plus one. They aren’t helping the team fight and your team has two nodes (and, hopefully, an increasing kill count). Seems simple enough.

I think you are mistaken, none of those professions meta is bunker.

Tempest alone makes matches bunker meta 2.0 , even if others are pure dps. It increases survival of others too much.

Counting how many weeks till tempest/scrapper are broken in PvE. I will hate ArenaNet even more, but hey, it’s just adding up.

Against DH’s the problem isn’t staying on point, it’s not getting on it Made extra hard by the magnet pull equivalent the DH’s have.

Against Necros the trouble with staying on point is not getting feared off of it continuously (while suffering from associated conditions). And when you do get to stand on it your in a well.

Against a DD sure you can do your hammer leap… but they’re definitely better leapers can leap a hell of a lot more. You end up having to AOE yourself just to get them to give you some breathing room.

And some unknown build of warriors I’ve faced, cut through my defences like swiss cheese. Pretty much instant spike down.

Ele’s can make the contest a total draw, its always a super long drawn out affair with a good one of those.

Druids…. well good luck 1 v 1 ing a druid that’s built to last and has bristle back or some dog thing of annoyance in tow.

Honestly whatever ultimate power it is that the engis supposedly have, I don’t quite get it. What they do have is the ability to escape if they build for it. Is that what the real complaint is, that they can run away fairly effectively when things go south?

Emapudapus.1307:

Tempest alone makes matches bunker meta 2.0 , even if others are pure dps. It increases survival of others too much.

Wrong. Focus target and all is fine.
The real cancer this season is reaper – for obvious reasons.

The meta tempest is no problem for any decent necro and you can’t really say these are a rare sight atm.

yep bunker tempest needs to die fast.. I have some games where we were 3 guys and we cant take 1 tempest down at all
So anet pls

Nekster.2657:

yep bunker tempest needs to die fast.. I have some games where we were 3 guys and we cant take 1 tempest down at all
So anet pls

Wait are these three guys all bunker tempests as well Seriously, noone can 1 v 3 and hold the point with equal skilled opponents in the current meta. Even if the 3 are also all bunker builds, they’ll cc you off it long enough to capture.

Tempests aren’t bunkers, they’re support. Bunker implies having mitigation and defensives. All tempest has is raw healing output + boon/aura share. Burst is your friend.

Scrappers are more of a bruiser than a bunker, and while they might have either too much survivability for their damage (or too much damage for their survivability) they certainly aren’t going to be causing any “bunker meta 2.0”

I honestly have no idea where people are getting this idea that everything needs to be able to be nuked down in seconds. This isn’t a FPS. Killing enemies should be a achievement not something that is inevitable.

I think tempest are ok actually. You need to run supporty amy and lose a lot of dmg for it.

Now scrapper on the other hand is really broken: you run marauder and still being way too tanky while dishing out more dmg than thief.

Cynz.9437:

I think tempest are ok actually. You need to run supporty amy and lose a lot of dmg for it.

Now scrapper on the other hand is really broken: you run marauder and still being way too tanky while dishing out more dmg than thief.

Saying things like this is so generic as to be pointless because no-one can address your issue or validate your hand waving.

For instance when you say “more damage than a thief”, is this on an opponent who is standing still like a training golem? What period of time are you talking over? When you say scrappers are “way too tanky” how do you define tanky? Is being able to stealth and run-away tanky for instance? When you write the way you do it’s hard to have any meaningful discussion with you because you’re providing no context by which to evaluate your seeming arbitrary statements.

Cynz.9437:

I think tempest are ok actually. You need to run supporty amy and lose a lot of dmg for it.

Now scrapper on the other hand is really broken: you run marauder and still being way too tanky while dishing out more dmg than thief.

Agree 100%. Anything this tanky on marauder is just plain bad.

Scrappers aren’t that bunkery and there’s no reason to run more than 1 ele, since it has clear disadvantages that the team needs to make up for (no DPS, bad mobility, bad rezzing) and there is considerable overlap when running multiple clerics-ele (aura-durations don’t stack, reg+vigor from 1 ele is likely enough as well).

shion.2084:

Cynz.9437:

I think tempest are ok actually. You need to run supporty amy and lose a lot of dmg for it.

Now scrapper on the other hand is really broken: you run marauder and still being way too tanky while dishing out more dmg than thief.

Saying things like this is so generic as to be pointless because no-one can address your issue or validate your hand waving.

For instance when you say “more damage than a thief”, is this on an opponent who is standing still like a training golem? What period of time are you talking over? When you say scrappers are “way too tanky” how do you define tanky? Is being able to stealth and run-away tanky for instance? When you write the way you do it’s hard to have any meaningful discussion with you because you’re providing no context by which to evaluate your seeming arbitrary statements.

Hammer has backstab multipliers while providing better utility than shield even. Inb4 oh you need to stand in aoe or not dodge the whirl. Well great i need to dodge every single hammer spell scrapper throws at me while i can’t even touch him most of the time due absurd amount of utility hammer offers. That not to mention alchemy and scrapper traits.

You know what anet logic was behind sb (and other weapons tbh) either dealing basically 0 dmg on some spells? UTILITY! But when they designed hammer they simply threw any common sense out of window.

Cynz.9437:

shion.2084:

Cynz.9437:

I think tempest are ok actually. You need to run supporty amy and lose a lot of dmg for it.

Now scrapper on the other hand is really broken: you run marauder and still being way too tanky while dishing out more dmg than thief.

Saying things like this is so generic as to be pointless because no-one can address your issue or validate your hand waving.

For instance when you say “more damage than a thief”, is this on an opponent who is standing still like a training golem? What period of time are you talking over? When you say scrappers are “way too tanky” how do you define tanky? Is being able to stealth and run-away tanky for instance? When you write the way you do it’s hard to have any meaningful discussion with you because you’re providing no context by which to evaluate your seeming arbitrary statements.

Hammer has backstab multipliers while providing better utility than shield even. Inb4 oh you need to stand in aoe or not dodge the whirl. Well great i need to dodge every single hammer spell scrapper throws at me while i can’t even touch him most of the time due absurd amount of utility hammer offers. That not to mention alchemy and scrapper traits.

You know what anet logic was behind sb (and other weapons tbh) either dealing basically 0 dmg on some spells? UTILITY! But when they designed hammer they simply threw any common sense out of window.

Many of these complaints could be lobbied against a number of classes right now, including certain thief/daredevil and DH builds (which have high evasion/block uptime while dealing a considerable amount of damage and having other utility besides). Should they also be nerfed? Before you reply, you aren’t allowed to say “they require more skill to play;” they are almost completely different play-styles to the point that you are comparing apples and oranges.

Second, I do not know many players that run Marauder on scrapper; most run Paladin or Mercenary now, the main reasons being that we all lost access to Soldier and the slight toughness boost is helpful in the current meta. In the matches I have fought scrappers using Marauder, they did not fare nearly as well as their bulkier brethren. Funny enough, most Marauder-users I see are DD or, even more commonly, DH. Again, though, you seem fixated on scrappers.

Finally, and has been pointed out numerous times and in numerous threads, the hammer on its own is a fairly slow weapon with regard to base attack. Electro-Whirl actually has a considerable windup, and Shock Shield needs to make multiple connections to inflict optimal damage; both are easily kited. Rocket Charge can inflict some pain (if you do not dodge/block/invuln) but, again, it can be interrupted (or simply glitch). I would make a comparison to the revenant’s staff, but that would not be helpful because you would likely focus on its abysmal auto-attack damage as opposed to its low-recharge block, heal/condition-removal, and CC evasion skills.

Etaoin.4362:

Cynz.9437:

shion.2084:

Cynz.9437:

I think tempest are ok actually. You need to run supporty amy and lose a lot of dmg for it.

Now scrapper on the other hand is really broken: you run marauder and still being way too tanky while dishing out more dmg than thief.

Saying things like this is so generic as to be pointless because no-one can address your issue or validate your hand waving.

For instance when you say “more damage than a thief”, is this on an opponent who is standing still like a training golem? What period of time are you talking over? When you say scrappers are “way too tanky” how do you define tanky? Is being able to stealth and run-away tanky for instance? When you write the way you do it’s hard to have any meaningful discussion with you because you’re providing no context by which to evaluate your seeming arbitrary statements.

Hammer has backstab multipliers while providing better utility than shield even. Inb4 oh you need to stand in aoe or not dodge the whirl. Well great i need to dodge every single hammer spell scrapper throws at me while i can’t even touch him most of the time due absurd amount of utility hammer offers. That not to mention alchemy and scrapper traits.

You know what anet logic was behind sb (and other weapons tbh) either dealing basically 0 dmg on some spells? UTILITY! But when they designed hammer they simply threw any common sense out of window.

Many of these complaints could be lobbied against a number of classes right now, including certain thief/daredevil and DH builds (which have high evasion/block uptime while dealing a considerable amount of damage and having other utility besides). Should they also be nerfed? Before you reply, you aren’t allowed to say “they require more skill to play;” they are almost completely different play-styles to the point that you are comparing apples and oranges.

Second, I do not know many players that run Marauder on scrapper; most run Paladin or Mercenary now, the main reasons being that we all lost access to Soldier and the slight toughness boost is helpful in the current meta. In the matches I have fought scrappers using Marauder, they did not fare nearly as well as their bulkier brethren. Funny enough, most Marauder-users I see are DD or, even more commonly, DH. Again, though, you seem fixated on scrappers.

Finally, and has been pointed out numerous times and in numerous threads, the hammer on its own is a fairly slow weapon with regard to base attack. Electro-Whirl actually has a considerable windup, and Shock Shield needs to make multiple connections to inflict optimal damage; both are easily kited. Rocket Charge can inflict some pain (if you do not dodge/block/invuln) but, again, it can be interrupted (or simply glitch). I would make a comparison to the revenant’s staff, but that would not be helpful because you would likely focus on its abysmal auto-attack damage as opposed to its low-recharge block, heal/condition-removal, and CC evasion skills.

Oh i totally agree that elites generally need to be toned down. It is still the same problem that they are still must have. But scrapper is really overtuned. It doesn’t matter weither hammer is slow or not it still offers too much utility for dmg it does. Period.

Cynz.9437:

Oh i totally agree that elites generally need to be toned down. It is still the same problem that they are still must have. But scrapper is really overtuned. It doesn’t matter weither hammer is slow or not it still offers too much utility for dmg it does. Period.

Well, not all of them (coughberserkercough), but I cannot and will not deny the prevalence of elite specs in PvP and all other game modes as well. That being said, I am not sure how ANet could “tone them down” (or even if they should) without somehow gutting them in the process (see threads asking for buffs to base traits). I am not defending or attacking ANet on this one, just making an observation.

As to scrapper’s hammer damage, I don’t have much more to offer on that one, but I’m happy to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

What is so disheartening for me is simply the lack of balancing?

There is NO REASON why ANET shouldn’t be taken this data and doing some tweaking of numbers. I’m not talking about trait changes or huge skill changes..

I’m talking about adjusting cooldowns, energy costs, initiative, damage modifiers, cast times, healing coefficients? Just “TUNING” the game.

They could be doing that RIGHT NOW! And make these adjustments and REALLY improve the balance without “shaking up the meta”.

But they don’t.

Cynz.9437:

shion.2084:

Cynz.9437:

I think tempest are ok actually. You need to run supporty amy and lose a lot of dmg for it.

Now scrapper on the other hand is really broken: you run marauder and still being way too tanky while dishing out more dmg than thief.

Saying things like this is so generic as to be pointless because no-one can address your issue or validate your hand waving.

For instance when you say “more damage than a thief”, is this on an opponent who is standing still like a training golem? What period of time are you talking over? When you say scrappers are “way too tanky” how do you define tanky? Is being able to stealth and run-away tanky for instance? When you write the way you do it’s hard to have any meaningful discussion with you because you’re providing no context by which to evaluate your seeming arbitrary statements.

Hammer has backstab multipliers while providing better utility than shield even. Inb4 oh you need to stand in aoe or not dodge the whirl. Well great i need to dodge every single hammer spell scrapper throws at me while i can’t even touch him most of the time due absurd amount of utility hammer offers. That not to mention alchemy and scrapper traits.

You know what anet logic was behind sb (and other weapons tbh) either dealing basically 0 dmg on some spells? UTILITY! But when they designed hammer they simply threw any common sense out of window.

Ah so your definition of doing more damage is based on a single hit, and not how often you can perform it? You are simply looking at the multiplier and saying that there is an attack that an engi can do under some set of circumstances which would in isolation do more than a single attack a theif could do? What is the highest thief multilier vs the highest engi one?

though I’m not sure that the response out of context would make a heck of a lot of difference. For instance if I have a 0.5 lower multiplier but I can do it 8 times in a second, then how is simply looking at the multiplier relevant, right?

Emapudapus.1307:

Tempest alone makes matches bunker meta 2.0 , even if others are pure dps. It increases survival of others too much.

I hate to say it, but if they nerfed the team support then ele would definitely be unplayable. You don’t see them winning many 1v1’s and if you have them in a team fight you instantly win because of all the condi clear and heals. As much as I can’t stand to fight against one, what more do they bring to the table than team support? Nerfing it to the ground would make ele unplayable alongside thief / war, which would further imbalance the game

Nekster.2657:

yep bunker tempest needs to die fast.. I have some games where we were 3 guys and we cant take 1 tempest down at all
So anet pls

CC, kill, done.

If you cant do that, thats on you. Not on a build.