Guild Wars 2

Evan Lesh.3295:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

season 3 we get both
i.e.

red – blue
8 – 8
8 – 9
9 – 8
8 – 9
9 – 8

something like that maybe.
otherwise, one team gonna have slightly higher overall MMR.

Season 1 would have been closer:
6 – 7
6 – 5
5 – 5
5 – 4
4 – 4

Your season 2 example is accurate, though could be closer in some circumstances.

Season 3 will be like a sorted version of season 1:
4 – 5
4 – 5
4 – 6
5 – 6
5 – 7

Why are the teams BY DESIGN being stacked in a game where a win = +1 and a loss = -1?

HIDDEN MMR MEANS LITERALLY NOTHING IN A GAME WHERE THE ENTIRE PURPOSE IS PIPS.

You’re DELIBERATELY stacking teams and borderline forcing losses onto players in literally every game. What sort of intelligent design is that? You’re actively discouraging accurate matchmaking by team-stacking.

Literally zero part of your system encourages good gameplay. ZERO of my last 15 games have been reasonably competitive. I finally had one that wasn’t 500-250, and we had no chance the entire game despite losing 500-450.

Your system isn’t fun when a player is forced to carry OBVIOUSLY incompetent teammates in more than even ONE SINGLE GAME.

It’s like you’ve never played competitive games before, at all.

TLDR

Had win loss win loss win loss pattern literally non-stop since yesterday evening. It is a joke.

Impact.2780:

TLDR

Had win loss win loss win loss pattern literally non-stop since yesterday evening. It is a joke.

Technically…. you should balance out at a 50/50 w/l ratio when you reach the division that corresponds to your skill level.

…so if the system was working perfectly….

you would eventually average out to a 50/50 w/l eventually.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Impact.2780:

TLDR

Had win loss win loss win loss pattern literally non-stop since yesterday evening. It is a joke.

Technically…. you should balance out at a 50/50 w/l ratio when you reach the division that corresponds to your skill level.

I haven’t gone anywhere. I started in Sapphire.

Please do not suggest to me that I am comparable to these people who:
- Tunnel vision a target ignoring the downed, allowing it to be ressed so they can be wiped.
- Focus a target down to 5% then switch the target to the full health tank and wipe.
- Play warrior and druid but expect the thief to be stomping in team fights.
- Zerg enemy treb at start.

I would take great offense if you were.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Impact.2780:

TLDR

Had win loss win loss win loss pattern literally non-stop since yesterday evening. It is a joke.

Technically…. you should balance out at a 50/50 w/l ratio when you reach the division that corresponds to your skill level.

…so if the system was working perfectly….

you would eventually average out to a 50/50 w/l eventually.

Not when the system is literally designed to stack one of the two teams every single game. That doesn’t create 50/50, it forces it randomly, or it forces one of the extremes randomly.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Configs were wonky for the first 30 minutes of the season in case some people here played during that period.

yeh tell me how your “configs” are doing now cause somethings still wonky. That brings me to a 1win 24 loss record. :/

Impact.2780:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Impact.2780:

TLDR

Had win loss win loss win loss pattern literally non-stop since yesterday evening. It is a joke.

Technically…. you should balance out at a 50/50 w/l ratio when you reach the division that corresponds to your skill level.

I haven’t gone anywhere. I started in Sapphire.

Please do not suggest to me that I am comparable to these people who:
- Tunnel vision a target ignoring the downed, allowing it to be ressed so they can be wiped.
- Focus a target down to 5% then switch the target to the full health tank and wipe.
- Play warrior and druid but expect the thief to be stomping in team fights.
- Zerg enemy treb at start.

I would take great offense if you were.

Are you ignoring the fact that if you value yourself as “better” than where you were placed…. that someone else could be in the exact same scenario?

I started in sapphire also.

The issue is that LOTS of the players who value themselves as competent also started in Sapphire. …and all those players are mixed in with all the trash who aren’t competent.

The only thing the placement did was knock off the training wheel leagues which didn’t even serve any purpose… other than to warm you up for the real deal.

(sapphire is the new amber)

bLind.6278:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Impact.2780:

TLDR

Had win loss win loss win loss pattern literally non-stop since yesterday evening. It is a joke.

Technically…. you should balance out at a 50/50 w/l ratio when you reach the division that corresponds to your skill level.

…so if the system was working perfectly….

you would eventually average out to a 50/50 w/l eventually.

Not when the system is literally designed to stack one of the two teams every single game. That doesn’t create 50/50, it forces it randomly, or it forces one of the extremes randomly.

I was talking about a hypothetical perfect system… not the system we have now.

Look at it this way…
When you start pvping…. there is nobody below you.

Above you are both opponents who are better than you and worse than you.

As you continue to beat opponents who aren’t better than you and climb upward, you will eventually start fighting opponents who are almost equal in skill to you.

…and a short while after that you should find equilibrium.

Below you are players who are not as good as you are.

Above you are players who are better than you.

You lose to the people better than you.

And you win against the people you are better than.

…and you stop progressing, and get locked into a win loss at 50/50

Could it be the issue has been with MMR this whole time? Not matchmaking.

Let’s ditch the rank 10 req to enter ranked, and replace it with an IQ test which is used to determine your minimum and maximum MMR for the season, and reset it to the middle of that range.

So let me get this right. according to the math on my current path of progression i should hit my 51st loss and Ill win every match thereafter? Welp there goes my goal of a 100 match loosing streak. “Way to go Anet” for destroying another Goal of mine.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

I was talking about a hypothetical perfect system… not the system we have now.

Look at it this way…
When you start pvping…. there is nobody below you.

Above you are both opponents who are better than you and worse than you.

As you continue to beat opponents who aren’t better than you and climb upward, you will eventually start fighting opponents who are almost equal in skill to you.

…and a short while after that you should find equilibrium.

Below you are players who are not as good as you are.

Above you are players who are better than you.

You lose to the people better than you.

And you win against the people you are better than.

…and you stop progressing, and get locked into a win loss at 50/50

Except it can randomly place you on the winning team 100x in a row, or the losing team 100x in a row, while still having you within your given MMR range. Yea, you might be a 4 getting paired with 7’s the start the season, and then eventually level out, but then maybe you’re getting paired with 5’s and 6’s while the other team just gets 4’s (because this is literally how the system is designed – by giving one team an advantage every game), and you go on huge win streaks and get carried to an MMR that you don’t deserve, and then randomly continue on that win streak, or eventually start getting put on the bad team (again, randomly) and start losing.

It will give you a GENERAL skill level, but there is still way too much RNG to make it a legitimate system.

Beyond that, Anet has literally destroyed the competitive nature of the game by intentionally making one team in every single game stronger than the other. Average 4.5 team against average 5.5 team, basically. It may not always be a big enough difference to force a win for the higher team (because of team composition, mainly), but it’s naive to think that deliberate team-stacking doesn’t contribute to the outcome of a game.

bLind.6278:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

I was talking about a hypothetical perfect system… not the system we have now.

Look at it this way…
When you start pvping…. there is nobody below you.

Above you are both opponents who are better than you and worse than you.

As you continue to beat opponents who aren’t better than you and climb upward, you will eventually start fighting opponents who are almost equal in skill to you.

…and a short while after that you should find equilibrium.

Below you are players who are not as good as you are.

Above you are players who are better than you.

You lose to the people better than you.

And you win against the people you are better than.

…and you stop progressing, and get locked into a win loss at 50/50

Except it can randomly place you on the winning team 100x in a row, or the losing team 100x in a row, while still having you within your given MMR range. Yea, you might be a 4 getting paired with 7’s the start the season, and then eventually level out, but then maybe you’re getting paired with 5’s and 6’s while the other team just gets 4’s (because this is literally how the system is designed – by giving one team an advantage every game), and you go on huge win streaks and get carried to an MMR that you don’t deserve, and then randomly continue on that win streak, or eventually start getting put on the bad team (again, randomly) and start losing.

It will give you a GENERAL skill level, but there is still way too much RNG to make it a legitimate system.

Beyond that, Anet has literally destroyed the competitive nature of the game by intentionally making one team in every single game stronger than the other. Average 4.5 team against average 5.5 team, basically. It may not always be a big enough difference to force a win for the higher team (because of team composition, mainly), but it’s naive to think that deliberate team-stacking doesn’t contribute to the outcome of a game.

… i don’t know if you aren’t reading what I’m typing or what…. but we aren’t even talking about the same thing, bro.

bLind.6278:

…

It’s like you’ve never played competitive games before, at all.

I said this last season and as effectively nothing has changed since then i’ll say it again.
It’s like this Evan guy doesn’t even play his own game.

I envy those who are doing win/loss/win/loss rotation.

16 games played, 6 wins. For one, the games are less enjoyable this season compared to last. At least I had closer games last season – so far I think I had one or two games that were close, the others not so much.

The fun factor for me so far is at an all time low.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

season 3 we get both
i.e.

red – blue
8 – 8
8 – 9
9 – 8
8 – 9
9 – 8

something like that maybe.
otherwise, one team gonna have slightly higher overall MMR.

Season 1 would have been closer:
6 – 7
6 – 5
5 – 5
5 – 4
4 – 4

Your season 2 example is accurate, though could be closer in some circumstances.

Season 3 will be like a sorted version of season 1:
4 – 5
4 – 5
4 – 6
5 – 6
5 – 7

This is not how it works, why are you posting something that is not true?

This is why I’m just gonna wait a while before PvPing after hitting Ruby. I’ve had so many sapphire matches vs Phantaram/Sunfish/Chaith/Muffinz/random APeX dudes etc and it isn’t even just one of them, up to 2-3 of them at a time lol.

Evan’s post makes no sense since my MMR cannot be anywhere near those players especially with a <40% win rate back in sapphire since I was doing profession win on classes I don’t usually play. I was basically a ‘1’ up against ’10’s.

Edit: Added screenshot of my last 10 games in ranked, 70% of the matches were not remotely competitive. One was a lord kill so that was pretty close, so in total 30% of the matches were 50-50 either way, the rest was a steamroll or be steamrolled.

Feedback from my journey through Sapphire:

Facts: I started playing this weekend on EU. I played 16 wins : 2 losses; only 1 close game (one of my teammates confessed that this was his first game on a druid).

Personal Opinion: Only 1 of those 18 games felt good, rest of my opponents felt like going through the random mobs in a dungeon (not going to use the common slang-term generally used for them).
There were definitely some guys on the opponent side, which I definitely should not face MMR-wise, but the other games might just come down to the ‘snowbally’ nature of the game design.
Definitely not an expirience I want in a pvp game.

It is like some horrible joke. I get teammates that doesn’t really care about matches, can;t do a thing, doesn’t know how to target! FFS! They can’t even 1 v 1… S2 was good, you could rush to division made for you and then get some competitive matches, while now? It is like bunch of pvers vs pro pvpers every single match… and that is not cool :/

do you think Arena Net cares about pvp and how unbalanced the match making is? the answer is no. they do not care. they made it so that one team will have a better chance at winning the match based upon their MMR and the other is nothing but bottom feeders in MMR. ppl with the higher MMR are placed on a team against the 5 who have the lowest. they cater to the higher mmr rather than balance of teams. we all know this. so why has this season worse than it was before? the answer is that they cater to passive condi play rather than skill. so if you want to win and have better teams. just roll a condi build on any high condi application class.

/15charactersssss

Kasteros.9847:

It is like some horrible joke. I get teammates that doesn’t really care about matches, can;t do a thing, doesn’t know how to target! FFS! They can’t even 1 v 1… S2 was good, you could rush to division made for you and then get some competitive matches, while now? It is like bunch of pvers vs pro pvpers every single match… and that is not cool :/

You are confusing both, S2 is where you had pro pvp er vs Low MMR player, on S3 everyone is given a fair chance ( 5 vs 5 or 4 vs 6 )

timmy.8732:

do you think Arena Net cares about pvp and how unbalanced the match making is? the answer is no. they do not care. they made it so that one team will have a better chance at winning the match based upon their MMR and the other is nothing but bottom feeders in MMR. ppl with the higher MMR are placed on a team against the 5 who have the lowest. they cater to the higher mmr rather than balance of teams. we all know this. so why has this season worse than it was before? the answer is that they cater to passive condi play rather than skill. so if you want to win and have better teams. just roll a condi build on any high condi application class.

This is not true, what you are describing is S2. In S3, you are given a fair chnace at winning. Here is what S3 try to accomplish :

If you are a 5, the system will try to team you with 5 and then match you against other 5s, so 5 vs 5, You can also get 4 vs 6 (but these games are winnable as well).

Teutos.8620:

Feedback from my journey through Sapphire:

Facts: I started playing this weekend on EU. I played 16-2; only 1 close game (one of my teammates confessed that this was his first game on a druid).

Personal Opinion: Only 1 of those 18 games felt good, rest of my opponents felt like going through the random mobs in a dungeon (not going to use the common slang-term generally used for them).
There were definitely some guys on the opponent side, which I definitely should not face MMR-wise, but the other games might just come down to the ‘snowbally’ nature of the game design.
Definitely not an expirience I want in a pvp game.

This is probably a consequence of S2, high vs Low. The S2 MMR overrated you, so instead of starting where you belong ( based on your skills), the system exaggerated your rating.

Fivedawgs.4267:

You are confusing both, S2 is where you had pro pvp er vs Low MMR player, on S3 everyone is given a fair chance ( 5 vs 5 or 4 vs 6 )

In theory – yes, but on practise it is far from being so.
I was also very sceptic about all those comments about matchmaking in this season, but understood what folks were talking about when started actually playing. I had 3-4 quite close matches in the beginning and was like “wowie wow wow, S3 mathcmaking looks great”, but then the endless blowout mathces era have come. Seriously, I haven’t had a good competetive match from the day one I think. And I’m not on loosing streak or something, it just doesn’t feel good even when my team wins.
I still hope something will change in upper divisions, but for some reasons theory and reality of current matchmaking are two completely different things.

I also for some reason had good MM day 1.

Been pretty terrible since. I average out to 50-50. But I’ll go on loss streaks for no reason, then go on win streaks for no reason, even though I am playing the same. It is also just a very toxic experience a lot of the time with team mates who lose on purpose.

Fivedawgs.4267:

Teutos.8620:

Feedback from my journey through Sapphire:

Facts: I started playing this weekend on EU. I played 16-2; only 1 close game (one of my teammates confessed that this was his first game on a druid).

Personal Opinion: Only 1 of those 18 games felt good, rest of my opponents felt like going through the random mobs in a dungeon (not going to use the common slang-term generally used for them).
There were definitely some guys on the opponent side, which I definitely should not face MMR-wise, but the other games might just come down to the ‘snowbally’ nature of the game design.
Definitely not an expirience I want in a pvp game.

This is probably a consequence of S2, high vs Low. The S2 MMR overrated you, so instead of starting where you belong ( based on your skills), the system exaggerated your rating.

Uhm what? I think you misunderstood me. I had a ~89% win rate, so no, they did not ‘exaggerate’ my rating. Due to my high rating, I have to farm through ‘trash’ opponents to reach the position where I belong. Until I reach legendary, that won’t be the case tho.

Due to my rating, I am again in the higher rated teams and fighting lower rated teams (they did not change that!).

A good ranked MM system would balance teams, not stack teams to grossly favor one side.

Teutos.8620:

Fivedawgs.4267:

Teutos.8620:

Feedback from my journey through Sapphire:

Facts: I started playing this weekend on EU. I played 16-2; only 1 close game (one of my teammates confessed that this was his first game on a druid).

Personal Opinion: Only 1 of those 18 games felt good, rest of my opponents felt like going through the random mobs in a dungeon (not going to use the common slang-term generally used for them).
There were definitely some guys on the opponent side, which I definitely should not face MMR-wise, but the other games might just come down to the ‘snowbally’ nature of the game design.
Definitely not an expirience I want in a pvp game.

This is probably a consequence of S2, high vs Low. The S2 MMR overrated you, so instead of starting where you belong ( based on your skills), the system exaggerated your rating.

Uhm what? I think you misunderstood me. I had a ~89% win rate, so no, they did not ‘exaggerate’ my rating. Due to my high rating, I have to farm through ‘trash’ opponents to reach the position where I belong. Until I reach legendary, that won’t be the case tho.

Due to my rating, I am again in the higher rated teams and fighting lower rated teams (they did not change that!).

You are actually right. I am assuming you started in saphire. Let’s not forget that 35 + divisions were thrown ed into saphire. So obviously, even though the system try it’s best to do 5 vs 5, some people will progress faster then others due mostly to their skills than their MMR rating.

However, you are right. The system is a bot biased on old account. I was watching chaith stream yesterday and he 500 -100 a team on his main account ( which was in diamond); and decided to switch to his alt ( which was in ruby) to get more competitive games. And those were def competitve.

If I were to guess, I d say the games on his main account were mostly 6 vs 4, since there is not enough people with chaith rating, and those on his alt were 5 vs 5 since that’srepresenting of the population. (Most people are in that MMR range)

Fivedawgs.4267:

If you are a 5, the system will try to team you with 5 and then match you against other 5s, so 5 vs 5, You can also get 4 vs 6 (but these games are winnable as well).

Looking at the feedback this is not happening.

morrolan.9608:

Fivedawgs.4267:

If you are a 5, the system will try to team you with 5 and then match you against other 5s, so 5 vs 5, You can also get 4 vs 6 (but these games are winnable as well).

Looking at the feedback this is not happening.

Well Anet either lie to us or I am experiencing something else. Most of my games have being balanced. Most of my +200 point loss are due to my team not having a supp(ele) vs a team with a supp or vice versa.

And also, what I am saying doesn’t pertain to those who started in amber. Because anything cam happen there ( new players with ambiguous rating, old player who skipped S2, luck, and so on..)

Fivedawgs.4267:

So obviously, even though the system try it’s best to do 5 vs 5, some people will progress faster then others due mostly to their skills than their MMR rating.

Here, I disagree with you.
As long as the MMR system works, it is the same as skill.
The problem remains, that due to the match making process (favoring one team), I can end up in a team, where it does not matter what I am doing, I will still win or lose, because the difference between my teammates and the opponents is too huge, that I can’t make up for it (e.g. I had a few games, where my team won 3v4 fights while I opened the gate).
Ofc in the end, the average skill of my teammates was higher than those of my opponents.

Last season (at least for me), the match making on legendary was NOT better. There were three options:

• ESL (or otherwise recognized) players on the opponent team: Their team has the higher MMR (and are therefore better) and will win.
• ESL (or otherwise recognized) players on your team: Your team has the higher MMR (and therefore the better player) and will therefore win.
• ESL (or otherwise recognized) players on both teams: Could be an interesting match.

I still favor the pre-HoT and Season 1 match making. The average MMR of both teams were almost equal and therefore you could really feel, that you are making a difference (or you are the reason you lost).

The current problems started in S1 when ArenaNet realized that with the league design, good and bad players are progressing in an almost equal paste. But instead of adjusted the pips gained for higher rated individuals we got the cheap solution to let us fight it out.

Win 1 lose 1 or similar. Works as intended and fits the theme of this whole game “absolutely no sense of progression” and a grinding process not seen even in pure p2w korean games, may it be WvW…PvE or PvP.

They stay true to their mentality and game philosophy.

I have no clue why you are crying. #worksasintended #grindwars2 #moregemshopitemsplox

yes..that s 50/50

You are good at gambling.

It looks like during my last 10 or so matches I was hit with the luck fairy, something changed with how matchmaking works, or the people that were too good for Sapphire moved on. It might be that those first days the kittenercluck of people of massive skill differences being in the same league could have been what made matchmaking seem completely random to me.

My last matches have been huge blowouts where I could tell me and maybe one of my teammates significantly outskilled the opponents and they, in turn, were of similar skill level to the rest of my teammates. This was what I saw last Season towards its end.

Then again, it could just be purely luck. Either way, like I thought, playing the first days of a Season looks to be a really bad idea.

This doesn’t seem like proper matchmaking.

Fivedawgs.4267:

Kasteros.9847:

It is like some horrible joke. I get teammates that doesn’t really care about matches, can;t do a thing, doesn’t know how to target! FFS! They can’t even 1 v 1… S2 was good, you could rush to division made for you and then get some competitive matches, while now? It is like bunch of pvers vs pro pvpers every single match… and that is not cool :/

You are confusing both, S2 is where you had pro pvp er vs Low MMR player, on S3 everyone is given a fair chance ( 5 vs 5 or 4 vs 6 )

Yeah 4 v 6… tell that to ppl in emerald that have to deal with diamonds… This system is over broken when compared to s1-2. Also during s2 I had good teamates and it was like 10 v 1, but then I got to ruby and had to fight 5 v 5, 4 v 4, 8 v 8 etc. So That were equal fights. Same happened for my friend in diamond, he rushed all way to diamond and then got players on his level. Now… I get players according to my level, but my teammates not, they are usually much lower than enemy’s team members and can;t do a kitten . Just today I lost 4 matches in a row, while having top stats( around 150-250 points every match) and second guy had like 30, 20, 60 and didn’t even know what to do and how to figth 1 v 1. kitten I GOT AMBER players today against diamond… Just wtf is going on?!