Guild Wars 2

the reason I didn’t add regen is a) cause i’m lazy and b) you can get regeneration from outside sources. c) to keep it simple.

results are surprising in some areas, pretty obvious in others. (this is pretty much spamhealing on cooldown)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqJmSpUbvES4dC1NTXJJTmJhd29wbmZycEpMWjVDS3c&usp=drive_web#gid=0

Seems to require permission.

Was updating it to have old heal signet on, should be back up again.

Once again, your spreadsheet or “math” only takes raw healing numbers into account. You don’t take secondary effects of heals into account and you don’t take other sources of damage mitigation into account – such as protection access, stealth, etc. This means that all you have accomplished is presenting a biased argument (of course I am well aware that was exactly your intention though).

Ashanor.5319:

Once again, your spreadsheet or “math” only takes raw healing numbers into account. You don’t take secondary effects of heals into account and you don’t take other source of damage mitigation into account – such as protection access, stealth, etc. This means that all you have accomplished is presenting a biased argument.

So what you are trying to say is that the healing signet is even stronger?
It cant be affected by poison as much as other heals unless you keep it perma,it ticks no matter of your position or actions so it heals you even when you los or run away,it ticks while you disable enemies ,it ticks while you block enemies damage,it stacks with your regen,it ticks even when your allies have given you protection,it ticks when your are immune to conditions,it ticks while you are immune to damage..
It is basically still ticking while you go braindead on point,winning games with your broken disgusting class..and i hate it :P

You should make one at 0 Healing Power and at 1200 Healing Power.

you can edit the healing power figure.

Pretty surprised about Guardian heals… everyone stacks cleric’s ammy even though you don’t get as much from healing power from any of the two best heals as other classes’.

If that chart doesn’t make it totally obvious that Healing Signet is OP, then my dog invented quantum physics.

Ashanor.5319:

Once again, your spreadsheet or “math” only takes raw healing numbers into account. You don’t take secondary effects of heals into account and you don’t take other sources of damage mitigation into account – such as protection access, stealth, etc. This means that all you have accomplished is presenting a biased argument (of course I am well aware that was exactly your intention though).

That’s the point of the chart.

It’s okay though even if they nerf healing signet the other heals are almost as strong, you just have to actually click their button a few times in a match :P

Fun fact: perma poison will reduce healing signet to about 6000 healing every 30 seconds (after factoring in both the damage from poison on a non-condi profession as well as the 33% healing reduction), or about equivalent to most other professions’ heals with no poison.

Fun counter fact: Healing Signet, while poisoned, is still more effective than the vast majority of heals

They can nerf HS.

They should give us then stealth, or ports or protection, or true invulnerabilities, or clones, or pets, or deatshroud so warriors can be balanced as other classes.

If they nerfed HS, Warrior would be fine. Mending gets rid of 3 conditions on a 20 second cooldown. Surge is the best burst heal in the game.

Read the chart.

jmatb.6307:

If they nerfed HS, Warrior would be fine. Mending gets rid of 3 conditions on a 20 second cooldown. Surge is the best burst heal in the game.

Read the chart.

People complain about HS, not the other heals.

jmatb.6307:

Fun counter fact: Healing Signet, while poisoned, is still more effective than the vast majority of heals

Right, that’s what I meant. Perma poison reduces it to around 8000/30 seconds, while ticking for a little more than 2500 damage. So given a 30-second poison duration that’s never cleansed, HS will still heal about as much as other professions every 30 seconds, even after subtracting the damage that poison does.

jmatb.6307:

Pretty surprised about Guardian heals… everyone stacks cleric’s ammy even though you don’t get as much from healing power from any of the two best heals as other classes’.

If that chart doesn’t make it totally obvious that Healing Signet is OP, then my dog invented quantum physics.

That’s because the spreadsheet isn’t even close at showing what a guardian is capable of healing. Most healing comes from other sources than the #6 heal. Virtue, symbol-healing, AH, regen etc… which results in having a much higher HP/s than warrior can achieve.
And yes I main guardian and I’m not here to defend my warrior.

silentnight warrior.2714:

They can nerf HS.

They should give us then stealth, or ports or protection, or true invulnerabilities, or clones, or pets, or deatshroud so warriors can be balanced as other classes.

:)

Spreadsheet showing the math behind what we already know. Healing Signet is a bit too strong (Although I appreciate the initiative, and work that went into it).

My first character was a warrior, who I love, and who I still PvP on (though I’m feeling increasingly guilty about how super strong it is), and frankly I can’t BELIEVE the absurd garbage that falls out of the mouths of other warriors when trying to defend Healing Signet.

“Omg, if you nerf healing signet, then you have to give us everything every other class has! Clones, protection, stealth, blerg blerg blerg, otherwise it’s not fair!”

Donkey sauce, you buffoons. This is a comparison of one healing skill vs. another, and the Warrior healing skill is simply stronger than others, without having to sacrifice time to active it (which is not taken into account by this very nifty spreadsheet).

To make the claim that Healing Signet SHOULD be a superior heal on the basis that it’s what makes warriors viable, is to make the claim that warriors as a class have no other tools. That’s the claim an idiot would make. I’ll be sure to tell it to Shield Block and Double Endure Pain, Berserker Stance, Balanced Stance (possibly x2 with trait) and Dolyak Signet for insane amounts of stability, or just flatout the INSANE amount of toughness that you can get on a condition build warrior that’s ALREADY the equivalent of most other classes having perma protection.

What’s that you say? Don’t be stupid? A Warrior can’t have ALL the tricks I mentioned above and I’m exaggerating? Guess what, other classes have to sacrifice for their ability to defend themselves too. That’s why a rational discussion shouldn’t be what EVERY class has the potential to do vs. 1 thing a warrior can do, it should be an analysis of healing skills vs. healing skills.

I 1v3ed some guys yesterday with my sword bleed build. Admittedly, the 3rd guy showed up as guy number 1 was about to die, so it wasn’t entirely simultaneous. I probably still shouldn’t have been able to do this. I’m really not even very good at PvP. Healing Signet is nutty right now.

tarcheg.4872:

jmatb.6307:

Pretty surprised about Guardian heals… everyone stacks cleric’s ammy even though you don’t get as much from healing power from any of the two best heals as other classes’.

If that chart doesn’t make it totally obvious that Healing Signet is OP, then my dog invented quantum physics.

That’s because the spreadsheet isn’t even close at showing what a guardian is capable of healing. Most healing comes from other sources than the #6 heal. Virtue, symbol-healing, AH, regen etc… which results in having a much higher HP/s than warrior can achieve.
And yes I main guardian and I’m not here to defend my warrior.

This is another stance so stupid I can’t even believe it. The spreadsheet doesn’t show what guardians are CAPABLE of healing for? Thanks. I guess we really should have compared ALL Guardian methods of healing to Healing Signet for a fair comparison.

What’s that? Virtue of Resolve is always on, so we should lump that in? Gee, I guess that’d be fair if the Virtues weren’t already considered the trade off for the much much lower base health pool. Just how many times do you want guardians to pay for that lackluster 1 Aegis every 40 seconds and super weak passive heal? You think it should be factored into their base heals AND their base HP pool? This is such stupid reasoning I …I don’t even know what to say here.

Ludus Rex.1562:

Spreadsheet showing the math behind what we already know. Healing Signet is a bit too strong (Although I appreciate the initiative, and work that went into it).

My first character was a warrior, who I love, and who I still PvP on (though I’m feeling increasingly guilty about how super strong it is), and frankly I can’t BELIEVE the absurd garbage that falls out of the mouths of other warriors when trying to defend Healing Signet.

“Omg, if you nerf healing signet, then you have to give us everything every other class has! Clones, protection, stealth, blerg blerg blerg, otherwise it’s not fair!”

Donkey sauce, you buffoons. This is a comparison of one healing skill vs. another, and the Warrior healing skill is simply stronger than others, without having to sacrifice time to active it (which is not taken into account by this very nifty spreadsheet).

To make the claim that Healing Signet SHOULD be a superior heal on the basis that it’s what makes warriors viable, is to make the claim that warriors as a class have no other tools. That’s the claim an idiot would make. I’ll be sure to tell it to Shield Block and Double Endure Pain, Berserker Stance, Balanced Stance (possibly x2 with trait) and Dolyak Signet for insane amounts of stability, or just flatout the INSANE amount of toughness that you can get on a condition build warrior that’s ALREADY the equivalent of most other classes having perma protection.

What’s that you say? Don’t be stupid? A Warrior can’t have ALL the tricks I mentioned above and I’m exaggerating? Guess what, other classes have to sacrifice for their ability to defend themselves too. That’s why a rational discussion shouldn’t be what EVERY class has the potential to do vs. 1 thing a warrior can do, it should be an analysis of healing skills vs. healing skills.

I 1v3ed some guys yesterday with my sword bleed build. Admittedly, the 3rd guy showed up as guy number 1 was about to die, so it wasn’t entirely simultaneous. I probably still shouldn’t have been able to do this. I’m really not even very good at PvP. Healing Signet is nutty right now.

You get me wrong. I was trying to say that its obvious that warrios have and need to have better heals than the other classes because we lack other things they have.

I believe its better if i say this way:

Give the HS to all classes in the game, and the remove all the stealth, ports, clones, invuln and so on, other classes have.

Heals are balanced with the roles/damage mitigation classes can have.
Comparing heals across classes it is not the best thing to do. But its a start…

silentnight warrior.2714:

You get me wrong. I was trying to say that its obvious that warrios have and need to have better heals than the other classes because we lack other things they have.

I believe its better if i say this way:

Give the HS to all classes in the game, and the remove all the stealth, ports, clones, invuln and so on, other classes have.

Heals are balanced with the roles/damage mitigation classes can have.
Comparing heals across classes it is not the best thing to do. But its a start…

Silent, buddy… I don’t want to be a jerk to you here, but this is still a super nonsense stance to take. Heals should be balanced with other heals. You don’t deserve better heals because you don’t have stealth, clones or protection. It’s true you’re lacking those things SPECIFICALLY, but warriors have plenty of other viable tools for damage mitigation.

Warriors have Endure Pain, can trait to get a second auto Endure Pain when their health gets low, and can trait for increased stance duration. Run this concurrent with Berserker Stance and you get damage immunity and near condition immunity for 10 straight seconds, WHILE you’re active. Like, you can be running around wailing on junk. Show me another class that can do that.

If your immediate response is “Well, that costs Warriors traits and utility slots!”, that’s silly also. It’s not like infinite stealth and infinite clones and tons of protection just fall out of the sky for those other classes. They’re giving up their utilities and traits to increase their survivability also.

Warriors don’t just DESERVE better heals so they can compete. They have plenty of tools to do their job, just like other classes. Their heal is way more efficient than other classes without eating up any of their offense time currently. This is why warriors aren’t just “competing” in the current meta game, they’re dominating. I don’t want to swing the nerf bat like an angry blind man, but some minor tweaking is long overdue here. I simply can not see the argument for Healing Signet staying as it is. Every argument I’ve heard so far just seems extremely self serving and asinine.

silentnight warrior.2714:

Give the HS to all classes in the game, and the remove all the stealth, ports, clones, invuln and so on, other classes have.

Heals are balanced with the roles/damage mitigation classes can have.
Comparing heals across classes it is not the best thing to do. But its a start…

Except warriors don’t lack in any of these mechanics. He listed a bunch of very strong skills a warrior can use to mitigate damage for ages if they want.

In all honesty the strongest heal is probably the engineers if you’re using it on cooldown picking it up, due to the regen you get, plus it’s aoe. Mesmer is pretty strong too if you’re spamming it on cooldown with 3 clones. I just think having to use a heal on cooldown to even compare to healing signet (and still fall short of it) to be a tad to much.

Ludus Rex.1562:

silentnight warrior.2714:

You get me wrong. I was trying to say that its obvious that warrios have and need to have better heals than the other classes because we lack other things they have.

I believe its better if i say this way:

Give the HS to all classes in the game, and the remove all the stealth, ports, clones, invuln and so on, other classes have.

Heals are balanced with the roles/damage mitigation classes can have.
Comparing heals across classes it is not the best thing to do. But its a start…

Silent, buddy… I don’t want to be a jerk to you here, but this is still a super nonsense stance to take. Heals should be balanced with other heals. You don’t deserve better heals because you don’t have stealth, clones or protection. It’s true you’re lacking those things SPECIFICALLY, but warriors have plenty of other viable tools for damage mitigation.

Warriors have Endure Pain, can trait to get a second auto Endure Pain when their health gets low, and can trait for increased stance duration. Run this concurrent with Berserker Stance and you get damage immunity and near condition immunity for 10 straight seconds, WHILE you’re active. Like, you can be running around wailing on junk. Show me another class that can do that.

If your immediate response is “Well, that costs Warriors traits and utility slots!”, that’s silly also. It’s not like infinite stealth and infinite clones and tons of protection just fall out of the sky for those other classes. They’re giving up their utilities and traits to increase their survivability also.

Warriors don’t just DESERVE better heals so they can compete. They have plenty of tools to do their job, just like other classes. Their heal is way more efficient than other classes without eating up any of their offense time currently. This is why warriors aren’t just “competing” in the current meta game, they’re dominating. I don’t want to swing the nerf bat like an angry blind man, but some minor tweaking is long overdue here. I simply can not see the argument for Healing Signet staying as it is. Every argument I’ve heard so far just seems extremely self serving and asinine.

I can accept some tweak to HS. The problem its the amount of tweaks people want to make. In my opinion it should be 300/320 (0/300 healing power) and going up from that point.
The problem is people wanting to destroy HS.

Personally I’d like to see the base number drastically lowered with the healing coefficient increased by a margin so valkyries/clerics could become a better choice for a warrior I guess. You could either do that or make the signet risk/reward by changing it completely overhauling the passive and actives.

silentnight warrior.2714:

I can accept some tweak to HS. The problem its the amount of tweaks people want to make. In my opinion it should be 300/320 (0/300 healing power) and going up from that point.
The problem is people wanting to destroy HS.

I agree. It’s close to 400 baseline currently, which seems OP. I think that if we took this down to 300 it would be in a much fairer place when compared to normal heals. Frankly, I think it’d still be strong in terms of health per second, especially since it has no activation time, but the trade off is that there’s no burst healing either and it doesn’t have secondary effects, it just heals. 300 HPs is a perfectly reasonable place for Healing Signet to be in. Even strong. 400 HPs is silly. Please adjust, ANET. Thanks.

Oblivion.8307:

In all honesty the strongest heal is probably the engineers if you’re using it on cooldown picking it up, due to the regen you get, plus it’s aoe. Mesmer is pretty strong too if you’re spamming it on cooldown with 3 clones. I just think having to use a heal on cooldown to even compare to healing signet (and still fall short of it) to be a tad to much.

Engineer has to be actively using skills not to mention move correctly and is not putting out damage in order to get to the level of healing that HS gives passively. In order to match the healing efficiency of HS Engineer must abandon any other functional game play.

Mesmer needs to cast immediately on recharge a #6 with dubious animation and long enough cast time to easily interrupt, not to mention they need to always have 3 illusions up EVERY time they cast it, meaning that they can pretty much never shatter, absolutely must have Deceptive Evasion and probably Mirror Images too, in addition to either signet or trait for greater illusion health. Even with all this the probability of being remotely effective in play and trying to achieve this kind of healing is roughly 0.

Compared to these two heals that can get close to HS under optimal conditions that essentially dictate your play 50+% of the time the warrior needs to slot a single skill, then never press the button.

Yeah. Healing Signet is a bit over the top. We can stop kicking the dead horse. Everyone knows it (even the inexplicable defenders).

silentnight warrior.2714:

They can nerf HS.

They should give us then stealth, or ports or protection, or true invulnerabilities, or clones, or pets, or deatshroud so warriors can be balanced as other classes.

I want the same for eles then – in addition to +8k HP, +300 toughness, 10s RTL CD and a 4s stun with 8s CD – thanks.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Engineer has to be actively using skills not to mention move correctly and is not putting out damage in order to get to the level of healing that HS gives passively. In order to match the healing efficiency of HS Engineer must abandon any other functional game play.

Actually, just placing the Healing Turret (.5 second cast) using it’s active and picking it up again already outperforms Healing Signet.

It heals for more health per second, scales better, provides a water field, cures conditions and heals allies as well.

Rengaru.4730:

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Engineer has to be actively using skills not to mention move correctly and is not putting out damage in order to get to the level of healing that HS gives passively. In order to match the healing efficiency of HS Engineer must abandon any other functional game play.

Actually, just placing the Healing Turret (.5 second cast) using it’s active and picking it up again already outperforms Healing Signet.

It heals for more health per second, scales better, provides a water field, cures conditions and heals allies as well.

Perhaps I was too brief in my description. Healing Turret must be cast, along with its overcharge (on CD), you have to avoid being moved from the point that you placed it in order to pick it up to get the reduced recharge and you have to make sure that it doesn’t get blowed up before you can pick it up. During the time that you are doing this, you are not able to do other things, so there is an opportunity cost. Every 15s you need to abandon doing anything else in order to get this awesome healing and you need to count on your opponent not countering your actions.

Everything you say is accurate, but it doesn’t actually contradict what I said. Yes, the healing turret can strictly speaking out perform the healing of HS, but in order to do this requires an unrealistic degree of effort from the Engineer who will no doubt need to do other things, and will not always be able to do this every 15s. Not to mention, if he is CC’d, he can’t do it at all.

Maybe it’s because of my button layout (I mapped “6” and “f” both to the side-buttons of my mouse) but it takes me ~1 second (and no effort at all) to place, overcharge, pick up (and if I’m not laging I can do it on the move).

The thing about HS is that it’s passive is stronger than it’s active. They just need to reduce the passive, and increase the active.

Rengaru.4730:

Maybe it’s because of my button layout (I mapped “6” and “f” both to the side-buttons of my mouse) but it takes me ~1 second (and no effort at all) to place, overcharge, pick up (and if I’m not laging I can do it on the move).

The thing about HS is that it’s passive is stronger than it’s active. They just need to reduce the passive, and increase the active.

Isn’t there a delay on the overcharge of 1.5-2s for activation, or is the delay just on the water field? It behaves very differently (or feels like it) in wvw, pve, and pvp.

Edit: Also, I agree. Healing signet should be toned down to have less passive/more active, or at least fix the other things combining to make warrior god-tier (unsuspecting foe, no adrenaline loss on miss would be a good start)

BlackBeard.2873:

Isn’t there a delay on the overcharge of 1.5-2s for activation, or is the delay just on the water field? It behaves very differently (or feels like it) in wvw, pve, and pvp.

• If you press the button, the overcharge happens the next time the crank on top of your turret spins.

• The crank spins every 3 seconds.

• The crank spins for the first time right after you place the turret.

So if you place the turret and overcharge right away (mash “6”) the overcharge comes pretty much instantly.

The chart #s are questionable. I come to forums to push Ele back up to preferred status. Ele used to have a healing signet as good as the warrior, then it got cut in half. It seems warriors did not have a large enough metal cup to withstand the power of a class that has less of everything else. Nope, warriors could not live as long as Ele had the same healing signet, roughly. I question the #s because the Ele healing signet should not be “par or higher” than the warrior healing signet. That makes all the other #s questionable.

‘questionable’? this is simple math.

healing signet by itself isn’t ridiculously OP… However coupled with adrenal health (same line for cleansing ire) and it starts to get a little ridic…

To get the amount of healing and condition removal that warriors get from adrenal health+HS guards have to go at least 30 points into one trait line and
20 into another…. Warriors have to slot a number six skill and give up 15-20 points…

Big difference… Then we have something like phantasmal healing for mesmers… Ooo yay regen… “rolls eyes”. The combo of HS+adrenal health passive heals that don’t come from regen the boon are what makes warriors monsters… And even if warriors don’t have any traits for regen they are likely to get it from a teammate then bam they now have 3 passive healing ticks going all completely independent from one another.

tarcheg.4872:

jmatb.6307:

Pretty surprised about Guardian heals… everyone stacks cleric’s ammy even though you don’t get as much from healing power from any of the two best heals as other classes’.

If that chart doesn’t make it totally obvious that Healing Signet is OP, then my dog invented quantum physics.

That’s because the spreadsheet isn’t even close at showing what a guardian is capable of healing. Most healing comes from other sources than the #6 heal. Virtue, symbol-healing, AH, regen etc… which results in having a much higher HP/s than warrior can achieve.
And yes I main guardian and I’m not here to defend my warrior.

Healing power tends to scale like crap with the Heal Skill allone.

Regen…
If you have it up you get 25% bonus effectiveness from heal power.

Orb of light doubles a guards bonus effectiveness from heal power.
Selfless daring gives 10->20% bonus effecectiveness from heal power.
exc.
exc.

The advantage of a constant, impossible to interrupt, near perfect efficiency (minimal overhealing), zero downtime (no casting) heal cannot be understated.

The arguments above claiming “oh but the other heals give some secondary bonus” are ignoring that Healing Signet’s secondary bonus includes all of the above inherent advantages over most healing skills.