Guild Wars 2

When dealing with Warriors while up close and personal, it’s an obvious decision to not be trading blow for blow while the Warrior has 2-3 stances up. It’s common knowledge for players (berserker players especially) to put on as much avoidance as possible, and wait the stances out. This is all well and good – Warriors that panic and “press ALL the buttons!” find their foe could just evade out for 3 seconds, and go invisible for 5 seconds – re-opening when the Warrior is cooldown-less, able to be poisoned. The Warrior is quickly punished for that mistake. And a very common mistake that I see with beginner Warriors.

On the other hand, there are an equal amount of times where I’ve seen Warriors “press ALL the buttons!” and simply demolish immobile players while being, for all purposes, completely impossible to counter-pressure.

And then there is the flavor & style behind using stances. GW2 has definitely taken a unique stance on stances (ho-ho). I’ve personally played pretty much all of the MMO titles in the last decade, and anything ‘stance’, ‘attunement’, ‘mode’, ‘shapeshift’, related or otherwise is always mutually exclusive. Whether it’s toggled, creates a debuff on the user, or anything else – these powerful effects are usually always throttled. You can never be in multiple stances at the same time. Does that even make sense? LOL. There’s a certain amount of things that are OK in fantasy games, but I’ve always chuckled to myself whenever I pop more than one stance at once, and imagine my character contorted into a hilarious, unnatural pose while fighting.

Now, in my opinion of course, the biggest positives of ‘stances’ traditionally in MMOs are the active aspect of stance changing. Stance-dancing if you will – heavy reactionary play that forced the player to ‘bend’ with the situation appropriately with micromanagement.

I don’t think that this kind of strategy is possible with the current implementation of stances – they’re often mashed pre-emptively before blowing all the damage. It just seems to lack depth.

I made some mock patch notes describing the direction I’d like to see Warrior Stances go. Don’t fixate on the details like it’s Anet who just announced them, but imagine the different kinds of plays:

• Stances: Only 1 activated stance can be present on the Warrior at any given time. Activating a new stance replaces the effect of the previous one. The traits ‘Last Stand’ and ‘Defy Pain’ will continue to stack with existing effects.

• Balanced Stance: Cooldown reduced to 30s from 40s. Stability reduced to 5s from 8s

• Berserker Stance: Cooldown reduced to 30s from 60s. Duration reduced from 8s to 4s.

• Endure Pain: Remains unchanged. I think this skill actually requires timing & thought to be worth it.

I’ll end with asking you guys some #’s.

• How your experience is when using Warrior stances, and dealing with Warriors using stance?

• Do you think there is room for improvement of this mechanic?

• Do you also think using 2+ ‘stances’ is inherently weird as well? Haha.

1) I find it to be pretty cheesy to be able to neut far, have two people show up, pop both stances, and use my GS to bail. Of course, in H/LB you’re basically laughing at them trying to do anything to you while you fight with huge AoE damage and CC.

Fighting them is very frustrating, especially if they’re good at playing the class. You’re just like “this is pmuch over Anet wins this 1v1”

2) I agree on mutually exclusive utilities but the game doesn’t appear to have been designed for limitations on builds. They basically tell everyone build how you want, with no defined roles for classes outside of a general identity of the class. I think that holds the game back more than it offers “something new and different.”

It wouldn’t be fair to tell an Engi they can’t run Bombs and Nades at the same time any more than it would be to tell Warriors they can’t use two Stances at once, even though holding that much ammo and pulling off some crazy yoga stance that not even the Yogis have heard of makes absolutely no sense.

3) Gameplay trumps realism so ya its weird but so is constantly running around without slowing down to catch your breath, exerting enormous amounts of effort, and going from nearly dead to full health after being severely burned, poisoned, and bleeding from multiple orifices LOL.

In a game where you can put bleed and burning on a fire elemental, i don’t think we should worry too much about plausibility.

All the classes need more mechanics. But they need to be more universal than merely a limitation on one type of skill.

Examples I’ve posted on in the past:
- Ele has an adrenaline-style bar for mode changes, rather than cool downs.
- Warrior can spend stamina to ignore a skill cool down.
(obviously the classes need to be rebalanced around the new mechanic)

Rieselle.5079:

In a game where you can put bleed and burning on a fire elemental, i don’t think we should worry too much about plausibility.

All the classes need more mechanics. But they need to be more universal than merely a limitation on one type of skill.

Examples I’ve posted on in the past:
- Ele has an adrenaline-style bar for mode changes, rather than cool downs.
- Warrior can spend stamina to ignore a skill cool down.
(obviously the classes need to be rebalanced around the new mechanic)

The plausibility line in my post was a joke. I made this post from a gameplay perspective.

As for your suggestions, I’d welcome any kind of update in the flexibility of universal mechanics. I feel that it would be a nice break from the same strategies that every profession does, and more of an experience like: “These are your resources, choose how to spend them.” That’s what Thief would be like if Initiative wasn’t like, unlimited.

+1 Great ideas…

but anet wants to raise the skill floor not lower it.. imagine the average warrior with these new abilities.. hurr durr I spam buttons now?

Darnis.4056:

+1 Great ideas…

but anet wants to raise the skill floor not lower it.. imagine the average warrior with these new abilities.. hurr durr I spam buttons now?

Ah.. I look at it differently. Mashing the stance buttons would just overwrite your stances instead of stacking them. You’d have to pay attention to when they drop. If I’m only getting a defensive effect for 4s, I want to make sure that I time it properly so it mitigates a lot of damage. Right now it’s pretty easy to just hit Berserker Stance as well as Balanced Stance right before you engage and just go ham with impunity for 8 seconds. In theory, you’d have to decide if you need stability or condition immunity, and you’d have to time/match it better with incoming threats.

Edit: But honestly, you could just take Dolyak signet and just keep doing the same thing. I never got why Warriors have abilities that do the exact same thing with minor secondary effect flavors.

Chaith.8256:

Darnis.4056:

+1 Great ideas…

but anet wants to raise the skill floor not lower it.. imagine the average warrior with these new abilities.. hurr durr I spam buttons now?

Ah.. I look at it differently. Mashing the stance buttons

I think he was talking about my warrior idea

In my defense i made that suggestion back when warriors were the worst class :p

I was surprised after coming from gw 1 that I couldn’t cancel my frenzy with another stance. Shock axe warriors always had rush that would cancel frenzy

Stances are too bad that the only stance that i use on my warrior no are a stance and i use for the simple fact of have 40s cd.
Actually stances are relatively bad for effects and cd.

• Reduce condition duration in 100% for 8s is for GS user burst his 100b without fear of take conditions. I liked Berserker Stance as was, only granting adrenaline but with 25s cd. I think the change to actual effect and cd was a nerf.
• No take raw damage for 8s only is for GS user. Useless against cc and conditions, and with too high cd… Weak and useless :/
• Quickness (only the boon) is advantage and disadvantage at same time. More one skill better useful with GS and his 100b :/ . I never use! I think this effect could be added to old Berserker Stance but with 40s cd. The unlocked slot could be filled by a new stance focused in health/endurance gain.

How about they make all stances available to all wars at shorter duration/abilities kind of like an engineer/mesmer F1-F4? Maybe require adrenaline use to switch?

Sound OP? Look at some other classes…

The engineer gets multiple additional abilities depending on their utility seleciton… but the mesmer gets like 4 additional skills that could be categorized as on par or stronger than utility selections of some classes.

I would like to also see this migrate to thief and every thief have something like a blinding powder, knock down trap whatever regardless of utility selection.

JETWING.2759:

Stances are too bad that the only stance that i use on my warrior no are a stance and i use for the simple fact of have 40s cd.
Actually stances are relatively bad for effects and cd.

• Reduce condition duration in 100% for 8s is for GS user burst his 100b without fear of take conditions. I liked Berserker Stance as was, only granting adrenaline but with 25s cd. I think the change to actual effect and cd was a nerf.
• No take raw damage for 8s only is for GS user. Useless against cc and conditions, and with too high cd… Weak and useless :/
• Quickness (only the boon) is advantage and disadvantage at same time. More one skill better useful with GS and his 100b :/ . I never use! I think this effect could be added to old Berserker Stance but with 40s cd. The unlocked slot could be filled by a new stance focused in health/endurance gain.

I respect your opinions, but from a tPvP standpoint, you are 100% alone on those ones.

Aquin.3192:

How about they make all stances available to all wars at shorter duration/abilities kind of like an engineer/mesmer F1-F4? Maybe require adrenaline use to switch?

Sound OP? Look at some other classes…

The engineer gets multiple additional abilities depending on their utility seleciton… but the mesmer gets like 4 additional skills that could be categorized as on par or stronger than utility selections of some classes.

I would like to also see this migrate to thief and every thief have something like a blinding powder, knock down trap whatever regardless of utility selection.

That’d be cool. Like, F1 – Burst ability, F2 – Balanced State. F3 – Berserker Stance. F4 – Frenzied Stance.

I like it. I think that’d be way more interesting. The problem is motivating the skills & balance team, lolol.

Chaith.8256:

I made some mock patch notes describing the direction I’d like to see Warrior Stances go. Don’t fixate on the details like it’s Anet who just announced them, but imagine the different kinds of plays:

• Stances: Only 1 activated stance can be present on the Warrior at any given time. Activating a new stance replaces the effect of the previous one. The traits ‘Last Stand’ and ‘Defy Pain’ will continue to stack with existing effects.

• Balanced Stance: Cooldown reduced to 30s from 40s. Stability reduced to 5s from 8s

• Berserker Stance: Cooldown reduced to 30s from 60s. Duration reduced from 8s to 4s.

• Endure Pain: Remains unchanged. I think this skill actually requires timing & thought to be worth it.

I’ll end with asking you guys some #’s.

• How your experience is when using Warrior stances, and dealing with Warriors using stance?

• Do you think there is room for improvement of this mechanic?

• Do you also think using 2+ ‘stances’ is inherently weird as well? Haha.

Ty. I also respect your opinions
Answering the op post, i will say what i think:

- Stances: Only 1 activated stance can be present on the Warrior at any given time. Activating a new stance replaces the effect of the previous one. The traits ‘Last Stand’ and ‘Defy Pain’ will continue to stack with existing effects.

Fully agree!
Not as f2 – f4 burst skills, but as Clones and Phantasms.

- Balanced Stance: Cooldown reduced to 30s from 40s. Stability reduced to 5s from 8s.

I think actual cd (40s)is good due stance duration (8s). The pointless is that Balance Stance isn’t a Stance but just a boon that can be ripped, removed, converted…
As i said before, i think this stance could grant “Unshakable” instead Stability.

- Berserker Stance: Cooldown reduced to 30s from 60s. Duration reduced from 8s to 4s.

I think 40s cd would be good. But instead actual effect, this Stance could grant Quickness and adrenaline gain for 8s.
Yes! Could no longer grant condition immunity.

- Endure Pain: Remains unchanged. I think this skill actually requires timing & thought to be worth it.

May be i am alone with this opinion, but i still thinking Endure Pain weak.
This Stance could be better if prevent user of take raw damage and incoming conditions. CD could be also 40s.

Frenzy could be replaced for a new stance for grant skill diversity and skillful gameplay.

_Refresh Stance (new stance) could replace Healing Surge in heal slot, or replace previous Frenzy in utility slot. Could grant health and endurance over time for 8s (500 – 1000 hp/s and 1 or 2 extra endurance point per second). cd = 30s in heal slot or 40s in utility slot.

- How your experience is when using Warrior stances, and dealing with Warriors using stance?
Easy
I only use Balance Stance for bs, stability and extra (but not needed) swiftness with not too long cd.
Against other warriors i just wait stance ends for fight him.

- Do you think there is room for improvement of this mechanic?
Yes!
Latter i come back with other ideas

- Do you also think using 2+ ‘stances’ is inherently weird as well?
Yes!
Very weird.

in the original guild wars 1, warriors can only have 1 stance active at a time.

in guild wars 2, the stances have very long recharge time, and, warriors can activate all of them together? O_O

i.e.
balance’s stance
frenzy
berserker’s stance
endure pain
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stance

err only 4 stances?
seems like a pitiful amount if compared against guild wars 1.

in the original guild wars, other professions have stances too.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Stance

Until you will manage somehow to get abilities adjusted for tPvP(sPvP) only – no, no and no.
Making big changes to pat 0,1% of players is dumbest idea ever.

This seems like a reasonable and easy-to-implement adjustment to warriors that would address their current state. Good idea, Chaith Gauge.

A LOT of players (me too, if I remember right) suggested in past to remove Stances as utilities and to create Warrior’s F2, F3 and F4 which basically works like standard “Stances” in games.
But this change is too huge for ANet to even consider it.
Your idea to apply stance mechanics to current utilities/Stance is nice but I would to see a true stance behaviour: it stays up until you deactivate it or activate another one.
Of course ALL stance effects should be change and a negative effect may be added to balance it.
Like a stance that decrease condition duration on you but slighty increase the raw damage you receive, just to give you the idea.

Anyway yes, Stances right now are single target Shouts. Lol.

2 stance + duration + cleansing ire is imba against necros

1st serker stance for complete immune 2nd balanced for fear immune
hit f1 for condi cleanse and use lyssa elite when needed

20 seconds pretty much invincible vs necro (25 with lyssa)

gg

.. so yea i think the stance duration is one of the issues.

But then again theres a lot of situations where it would work out differently. Having balanced stance on even shorter cd sure sounds like a buff to me.

Having berserker stance on shorter cd would also buff it to be more of an adrenaline pump again – which seems somewhat scary to me. Maybe reduce the duration to 5 sec on 45 sek cd? that would be more like a nerf.

I made the suggesion months ago to integrate the stances with class mechanics (f2-4), long before the warrior meta.

Even suggested traits that could come of this, such as a grandmaster in arms that granted 2 seconds of quickness when swapping stances.

But yeah.. Seems very unlikely to come to anything unless the community really gets behind it. Certainly has this warriors vote though.

RaynStargaze.6510:

2 stance + duration + cleansing ire is imba against necros

1st serker stance for complete immune 2nd balanced for fear immune
hit f1 for condi cleanse and use lyssa elite when needed

20 seconds pretty much invincible vs necro (25 with lyssa)

gg

.. so yea i think the stance duration is one of the issues.

But then again theres a lot of situations where it would work out differently. Having balanced stance on even shorter cd sure sounds like a buff to me.

Having berserker stance on shorter cd would also buff it to be more of an adrenaline pump again – which seems somewhat scary to me. Maybe reduce the duration to 5 sec on 45 sek cd? that would be more like a nerf.

For sure. When facing comps with a significant amount of control, it’s not uncommon for Warriors to run Dolyak signet, Balanced Stance, Berserker Stance, and Lyssa runes. The feeling for professions that absolutely rely on defensive CC for their own defense and damage like Power Engi & Terror Necro is just like… “WHEN WILL IT ENDDDDDDD”. I think reactionary timing is a better road to go down with stances rather than “stack everything for 30s+”