Guild Wars 2

its quite simple why the meta is where it is at this moment.
condition specced builds only require 1 single stat to be effective. condtion damage. they dont NEED power and precision to be effective. and how convenient that the condition based amulet gives precision (useful for proc abilities) toughness which directly counters burst builds (which are made to kill damage dealers…) and the almighty condition damage.

Burst requires power, precision and crit damage. Without the 3 you will find yourself unsuccessful at your role and will do more harm than good to your team. (nobody wants a squishy AND weak burster)

Now we can look at the hindrances of each spec…
starting with condition spec they can be affected by:
-condition removal
-intensity stack cap
-getting killed before their DOTs run course
-vitality

Now the things a burst build must deal with:
-new and improved weakness
-protection
-toughness
-vitality
-blocks
-invulns
-blind
-easily dodged telegraphs
-RNG

Now I dont know about you but this doesnt look promising to the burster. And Im sure some of you are saying wtf is he saying, conditions can be blocked and you cant apply conditions while they are invuln. I know this but due to the persisting nature of conditions, that means they not only continue to tick while you are blocking and popping invuln, but many ground target AOEs are unblockable.

I wanna come back and talk about RNG. When I say RNG I mean the pitiful 60% crit chance you are going to get if you go full burst. Going full glass and then lining up a perfect burst just to get the horrible white number or even glancing (when you dont have weakness -_-) it literally leaves you with nothing. plus in order to get a half decent crit chance you need to spec into the precision line. unlike pve and WvW where you can still hit decent crit chance with zero in precision, in PVP you lose out a lot. It doesnt help that many precision lines are tied with condition damage, making it a wasted stat for pure burst builds.
But I digress, 300 precision in a crappy line is the least of my worries (as I dont bother with it anyways…) Im more focused on the conditions being OP rather than burst being UP. I believe burst is in a good place, unfortunately condition spec needs to be looked at with a more critical eye. My solution is simple. Reduce base condition duration by a fairly large amount, (and nerf burning since it is insanely strong) but also add another amulet, power/precision (not sure which one would be more fair) condition damage (main stat) condition duration. So if you build into conditions, you will have the same duration as you had before, but if you want to go a tankier build to survive burst easier, you sacrifice duration. This way you still retain effectiveness of wrecking havoc upon people, but you require to make a choice. defense or duration (my best analogy of this is comparing knights to zerker)

Warriors don’t need a berk amulet to do damage. Eles can run valk so they don’t need power and precision due to high fury uptime.

Warriors in knight do more damage than some classes in berk amulet.

Burning is really the problem with condition builds alongside epidemic and all the fear duration increases. Make fear a cc effect, not a condition, so it isn’t affected by condi duration boosts.

Funny that in a game that’s had Rabid gear for nearly a year, NOW it is an issue.

Also, there are approximately zero cases where you will hit a glancing blow against an enemy who isn’t higher level than you when you don’t have weakness. None. Zip. Nada.

@zenith. WTF? who told you warriors dont need zerk amulet? any burst needs 3k attack AT LEAST or you are a hindrance rather than a boon to your team. Eles have fury? big whoop. 24% crit chance means nothing. I agree with you on burning and fear.

@da sonic. rabid has always been an issue, its just recently coming to light with the new condition meta, as for glancing. we all make mistakes. its hard to monitor it when you are bombed with every other condition in the game aswell.
Diversity will only come through the downfall of conditions.

edit: Knights amulet in pvp quite frankly sucks. zerk gives you vitality and the burst stats where knights gives you only power precision and a tad more vitality

so much bias…

Block, blind affects condi classes too.
The fact that other condis run their course is inconsequential as a hit from a direct dmg specced class will also have “run its course”.

I am not even disagreeing or agreeing with your main point but the focal point of your post is a list which is so biased that it ruins what your implicit goal is IE to improve the game overall.

Not to mention that you then proceed to give accurate numbers such as “many” when referring to ground targeted aoe condi aplication abilities/spells.

Now in regards to your point:
- I don’t know whether or not conditions need to be toned down since I would need proper metrics to decide that. You can’t decide things based on how they feel. For example, when I don’t run a stun breaker I feel warriors are OP with 100b. But I would have to be a complete moron to call warriors OP even though I may feel that sometimes. Overall, everyone knows they are certainly not OP.
- Rabid has toughness, condi dmg and precision. Precision on the most part is usless for condi classes. Not completly mind you, some precision is good since a lot of traits have on crit activation but the amount you get from rabid is excessive. From zerk amulet, a warrior for example uses and needs all the stats it provides fully.
- condition classes DO need more than one stat to be effective. they need either rabid or carrion because they need to survive longer since actually bursting something down is impossible. With a condi specced class you will never see a number higher than 3k (unless maybe necro lich form and carrion amulet). Those are normal hits for a power specced class.

I’ve always felt that the main issue is that condi classes do dmg at range, which allows them to kite while doing dmg, while all effective power specs are melee. That’s how the game is made pretty much: condi = ranged and direct dmg = melee.

No, thats not the problem. Those amulets have been in the game from the start and there was a point (believe it or not) in this game’s pvp where you didnt have 10 conditions on you 2 seconds into a teamfight. But this game has taken a turn down to cheap and kittenty avenue and rewarded us with spirit rangers, s/d thieves and fotm spammancers.

Actually, there are some effective burst builds out there that can both negate/mitigate conditions and succeed in the #1 goal of spvp – neutralize the point.
One is the warrior mace/X/GS or hammer/GS build that has tons of stuns to reliably land a 100% crit chance hundred blades, as well as stability and 100+% condition duration reduction through stances. Not to mention full condition cleansing with lyssa runes and/or signet.
Another build is any form of the Automated response build with engi. With the right build, you can easily neutralize the point with knockbacks, stuns, and immobilizes. You could even do a variation of the static discharge build to burst down the necro, and if you fail, you won’t die since you still have automated response to escape with. The only thing lacking is stability.

These are the only 2 builds i’ve been running for the past month to directly counter the dozens of necros running around in hot join, thinking that they are unbeatable.

I actually like how the meta is developing. Just when you think you’ve found the perfect anti-burst build, suddenly there is a burst condition build. And after you’ve countered that one, suddenly there is a boon-stripping/cc build. I would like to see more variations of pvp in the future (not just capping points), but for now I am content.

Ah, again the flawed “you only need one stat” argument.
It’s just plain wrong. There isn’t one, but two stats that directly affect your performance; condition damage and condition duration. There is one stat, precision, that indirectly increases your delivery chances. There are also three desirable (depending on the class) stats that are used as multipliers. Now, since condition damage gets better over time, tell me, can you stab a guess as to which three stats those three would be?

There are SO MANY traits, sigils, runes, utilities, heals that negate conditions.

Thankfully, they made changes to the game where these are no longer extinct and some people actually adapt and use them now.

Others continue to play a style and build based on conditions being worthless and then complain that they can’t faceroll anymore.

It should be a requirement that you post your build/gear if you’re going to complain about conditions (or anything else). I’m willing to bet each whiner is neglecting tons of options that could mitigate conditions.

I love facing condition builds on my ranger. It’s easy as cake, but here’s a shocker….I actually traited properly to neuter conditions. It’s a concept you should try before whining on the forums.

ahuba.6430:

No, thats not the problem. Those amulets have been in the game from the start and there was a point (believe it or not) in this game’s pvp where you didnt have 10 conditions on you 2 seconds into a teamfight. But this game has taken a turn down to cheap and kittenty avenue and rewarded us with spirit rangers, s/d thieves and fotm spammancers.

I’ve been playing this game since beta mate so I can tell you for a fact that conditions have always been present.
The only reason you didn’t see that many on you was two-fold:
1) condition classes were pretty much terrible. Ranger was nigh unplayable and necromancer received a massive nerf pre-launch.
2) people didn’t know how to play properly. Engi for example has always been viable as a condition class but it is also very hard to play properly. People didn’t really know how to build/spec properly. Building for burst was easier that’s why 100b warrios and bs thieves rules the battlefields.

Also all classes spam abilities. If you think necros spam now more than they did a while back, you’re completely wrong.
The only two classes who don’t/can’t spam is elem and engi. They have more complex rotations that ideally need to be tailored for the situation they find themselves in.

I can’t believe anyone would ever consider spamming an issue in a game where you can set abilities on auto-cast IE auto “spam”.

And are you SERIOUSLY complaining about spirit rangers who have literally just appeared on the scene? Do you even know how hard it is to keep those spirits alive with the amount of aoe and cleave going around? I don’t even play one but I imagine it’s a nightmare.

Great rebuttal though: “no that’s not the problem” – no arguments why you think that or anything.

I dont think some people understand. toss gimmicky mace 100b warriors aside, its a noskill joke and it is running warriors back into the ground.
The issue lies within conditions themselves. When was the last time in a teamfight you took more direct damage than condition damage? Chances are if you didnt get focused by a thief you died to 60% bleeds 30% burning and 10% poison. Honestly I couldnt care less about thieves ATM. they just dont annoy me in pvp like they did before (wvw is a different story)
Im a little bit disappointed people attacked my lack of clarification on every point rather than looking at the main meat of the argument. Conditions are too effective for one main stat. You cannot deny that going full zerk is much more risky, and much less rewarding then going stell cannon condition bomber.
forget “skill” spam has nothing to do with this. the simple fact is that condition builds need more risk in build FULL CONDITION
this is not whining. this is me being bored with having 2 amulets to choose from. I can go full bunker, or I can go condition spec.
as for the person whoever you are that said blocks and invulns stop conditions therefore I AM BIAS all I can say to you is you didnt understand when I clarified shortly afterYou can surely block conditions from being applied, but combined with the instantly applying nature of most conditions (IE necro scepter and any other ranged ability that isnt a projectile that applies conditions for that matter) not only is blocking rendered very difficult, but also who the hell uses blocks to block an auto attack chain?
I say you are bias cause you have accustomed yourself to a condition build and dont want to see change. I say you are bias because you dont want balance on a larger scale. this isnt about classes. this is much bigger. every class can decide im right and support me, just as every class can say im full of crap. The problem is that people dont want to change. conditions have been the main source of damage since the beta and people want it to stay that way. and as to your other comment. its up to the player to survive after they get the conditions off. why do they deserve toughness to get a second chance when/if they screw up. thats like saying bunkers should get crit chance and crit damage so they can deal DPS while surviving.
wtkittend of game do we have where ranged classes are tankier than melee? please answer that question before you proceed to answer

condition specced builds only require 1 single stat to be effective.

I stopped reading there. Condition builds don’t require 1 stat to be effective. They require nearly all stats to be effective, sans power and crit damage. For their offense you have the standard 3:

Malice: This is how much damage conditions do.
Expertise: This is the duration of conditions. This determines, among other things, the is stacking amount of stackable conditions, and the frequency of uptime for non-stacking conditions. A 50% increase in conditiona duration is effectively a 50% increase in DPS and damage.
Precision: This determines the frequency of procs. Without precision, the hated traits of Dhuumfire or Incendiary Powder wouldn’t do anything at all.

And then we have the defensive stats of Vitality, Toughness, and healing power. The difference here being that durability is necessary for condition builds because they don’t do all of their damage up front. They have to be durable enough to outlast the enemy. Power builds don’t; they do all their damage immediately, and because of this they have the option to burst down opponents with pure DPS instead of having to build defensively.

I can’t take the suggestions of anyone who says otherwise seriously.

Bennet.2954:

ahuba.6430:

No, thats not the problem. Those amulets have been in the game from the start and there was a point (believe it or not) in this game’s pvp where you didnt have 10 conditions on you 2 seconds into a teamfight. But this game has taken a turn down to cheap and kittenty avenue and rewarded us with spirit rangers, s/d thieves and fotm spammancers.

I’ve been playing this game since beta mate so I can tell you for a fact that conditions have always been present.
The only reason you didn’t see that many on you was two-fold:
1) condition classes were pretty much terrible. Ranger was nigh unplayable and necromancer received a massive nerf pre-launch.
2) people didn’t know how to play properly. Engi for example has always been viable as a condition class but it is also very hard to play properly. People didn’t really know how to build/spec properly. Building for burst was easier that’s why 100b warrios and bs thieves rules the battlefields.

Also all classes spam abilities. If you think necros spam now more than they did a while back, you’re completely wrong.
The only two classes who don’t/can’t spam is elem and engi. They have more complex rotations that ideally need to be tailored for the situation they find themselves in.

I can’t believe anyone would ever consider spamming an issue in a game where you can set abilities on auto-cast IE auto “spam”.

And are you SERIOUSLY complaining about spirit rangers who have literally just appeared on the scene? Do you even know how hard it is to keep those spirits alive with the amount of aoe and cleave going around? I don’t even play one but I imagine it’s a nightmare.

Great rebuttal though: “no that’s not the problem” – no arguments why you think that or anything.

I did give arguments. There was a point in this game where condi damage was fine and necros actually had to manage their skills and those amulets were available, therefor the problem is not in the amulets. There, that is an argument. You want to know what is not a valid argument? “Do you even know how hard it is to keep those spirits alive with the amount of aoe and cleave going around? I don’t even play one but(…)”, now this is one kittening kittenty argument. And how can you say spamming is not an issue? Spamming is THE issue of gw2. And my complaint about spirit rangers is how easy and cheap it is to play that spec.
I don’t even understand why you replied to me with such kittenness but ok.

That’s not an argument – that’s an opinion.
And I wasn’t trying to give an argument there that was my opinion.
I do have a ranger and I tried the spirit build but I found it frustrating as heck. But like I said, I don’t play one (regularly) IE I don’t main one so I can’t say for sure that others don’t find it much easier.

Spamming is not an issue in gw2, it’s an integral part of how the game works. Again, you have auto cast built in. This will never be wow or warhammer online or whatever. Spamming will always be a part of gw2.

And necros still manage their cooldowns. Nobody blows everything and hopes for the best. It’s literally the same rotation as it was 5-6 months ago. Just ds5 and spectral wall have been added to it.

Anyway I have nothing personal against you and this is not constructive for the thread.