thief condition >> necro attrition
currently, thieves can build for max condition damage (pistols, caltrops and bleed stacking) while also playing attrition. this sort of build is way more than anything a skilled attrition necro can offer. given how devs have put necro in the “attrition” category, why are they vastly outperformed by a thief condition specialist?
Not really true, thieves can basically only apply bleeds and is VERY easy to cleanse. And necros can easily apply conditions on their whole team in a second.
(im a girl btw)
currently, thieves can build for max condition damage (pistols, caltrops and bleed stacking) while also playing attrition. this sort of build is way more than anything a skilled attrition necro can offer. given how devs have put necro in the “attrition” category, why are they vastly outperformed by a thief condition specialist?
Not really true, thieves can basically only apply bleeds and is VERY easy to cleanse. And necros can easily apply conditions on their whole team in a second.
Agreed, it’s mostly bleeds, and they in and off themself are pretty easy to manage for most professions, though they do stack very quickly from Thieves. I wouldn’t say they are anywhere near as good as a Necro, one condition just stacks much faster for a Thief.
Jumzi (Ranger), Tarnished Coast
Caltrops, and poison gas spam with weakness/poison proc trait is extremely strong, I definately say it’s on par with what necro can do, we just bring chill too.
We’re definately not much of an attrition prof IMO.
Necro is just there to corrupt boons.
currently, thieves can build for max condition damage (pistols, caltrops and bleed stacking) while also playing attrition. this sort of build is way more than anything a skilled attrition necro can offer. given how devs have put necro in the “attrition” category, why are they vastly outperformed by a thief condition specialist?
Not really true, thieves can basically only apply bleeds and is VERY easy to cleanse. And necros can easily apply conditions on their whole team in a second.
Thief definately is MUCH better in consistent bleed application than us. Necro’s are very bursty with their condition spam, and it definately doesn’t happen in 1 second. We stack chunks of bleed/conditions on a target, then try to epidemic and hope they’re not cleansed or out of range/downed w/e before they spread. We’re definately weaker to cond cleanse.
It’s great on downed people, but again we’re there to corrupt boons which thieves can’t do.
(edited by Knote.2904)
some of you are missing my entire point. im not saying that bleeds cant be managed or that thief condition builds > necro condition builds.
my point is a thief can spec entirely for condition damage (i.e. for DPS) while playing attrition. whereas the necro has to give up almost all damage for a proper attrition build, which actually ends up being inferior to what a simple thief can do popping in and out of stealth, spamming cluster/poison bombs, caltrops and bleeds.
so if necro attrition builds are subpar, and if necros are supposed to be an attrition prof, then can we expect some buffs in this area?
some of you are missing my entire point. im not saying that bleeds cant be managed or that thief condition builds > necro condition builds.
my point is a thief can spec entirely for condition damage (i.e. for DPS) while playing attrition. whereas the necro has to give up almost all damage for a proper attrition build, which actually ends up being inferior to what a simple thief can do popping in and out of stealth, spamming cluster/poison bombs, caltrops and bleeds.
so if necro attrition builds are subpar, and if necros are supposed to be an attrition prof, then can we expect some buffs in this area?
I’d attribute this to Thieves not having to spec into a specific trait tree for a condition build. Maybe 10-20 in trickery tops, even then that’s optional. I think that extends to nearly every thief build really, thieves have everything they need w/o traits.
Also our strongest defensive tools are heavily cooldown based, thieves will just stealth constantly for consistent condition cleanse, heals, and bleeds, and the stealth + more overall evasion > Death Shroud.
Only way your necro will really “bunker” essentially, is rotating between death shroud to absorb dmg, going godmode with plague form, and 10 second of massive healing from well. As well as our condition dumps being, dumps instead of consistent cleanses.
If we were less reliant on super strong long cooldown skills, could be healed in death shroud, and had good consistent life steals we’d be closer to a better attrition style build.
IMO that’s what dagger should’ve been about, healing/lifestealing and bleeds, similar to what thieves do. Signet of Malice/Lifesteal venoms/Assassin’s Reward/Bleeds is what necro D/D should’ve been. =/
That being said, I have done healing/condition bunker builds in the past, it was ok, necro’s are just so cooldown reliant though, it doesn’t lend itself to attrition gameplay.
This should probably be in the necro forum actually lol.
(edited by Knote.2904)
I don’t understand… I thought any condition build was basically playing an attrition build in playstyle? That, and your topic title says thief condition > necro attrition?
Maybe I’m not understanding what you mean by “attrition”.
Jumzi (Ranger), Tarnished Coast
attrition – “The action or process of gradually reducing the strength or effectiveness of someone or something through sustained attack or pressure.”
does not have to be condition damage. usually means high sustain, while whittling someone down. thief is definitely an attrition prof, but the sustain is much too high in relation to how much damage they can put out effortlessly. this is the problem. necro is also supposed to be an attrition prof, but is subpar even when specializing into attrition.
so is thief OP in this respect, or is necro UP? do blood magic and/or soul reaping need some serious tweaks?
@Knote
what do u mean by “10s massive healing from well”? u talking about the siphon trait?
(edited by nerva.7940)
But the thing is, the Thieves that do any significant condition damage don’t really put out that much standard damage, so in that respect. 1v1 condition Thief might be slightly better than Necro, but in a team fight the Necro is miles more devastating than any conditon build Thief with attrition or conditions IMO.
Jumzi (Ranger), Tarnished Coast
attrition – “The action or process of gradually reducing the strength or effectiveness of someone or something through sustained attack or pressure.”
does not have to be condition damage. usually means high sustain, while whittling someone down. thief is definitely an attrition prof, but the sustain is much too high in relation to how much damage they can put out effortlessly. this is the problem. necro is also supposed to be an attrition prof, but is subpar even when specializing into attrition.
so is thief OP in this respect, or is necro UP? do blood magic and/or soul reaping need some serious tweaks?
@Knote
what do u mean by “10s massive healing from well”? u talking about the siphon trait?
Nearly all of our healing in a bunker style build comes from Well of Blood. Scales insanely well with healing power and basically makes up like 50+% of our overall healing, the rest being regen basically. Lifesteal traits are such a small % of our healing.
So basically for 10 seconds every 32 seconds you can be nearly unkillable with a free 700 HPS on the ground after the initial big heal. Rotate that with Death Shrouds, and plague form and you can “bunker” but there are windows because it’s just rotating large defensive cooldowns. Plus you can be knocked out of your well and lose a good portion of your heals there.
Oh, and since we don’t heal in Death Shroud, having passive healing like regen/lifesteals conflicts with DS. One survivability tool nullifying another survivability tool.
But the thing is, the Thieves that do any significant condition damage don’t really put out that much standard damage, so in that respect. 1v1 condition Thief might be slightly better than Necro, but in a team fight the Necro is miles more devastating than any conditon build Thief with attrition or conditions IMO.
He’s talking about attrition however, not who can spam conditions.
(edited by Knote.2904)
Guys go watch powerr please… just please go watch.
In 1v1 maybe. However, in teamfights a condition necro is miles above a condition thief.
attrition – “The action or process of gradually reducing the strength or effectiveness of someone or something through sustained attack or pressure.”
does not have to be condition damage. usually means high sustain, while whittling someone down. thief is definitely an attrition prof, but the sustain is much too high in relation to how much damage they can put out effortlessly. this is the problem. necro is also supposed to be an attrition prof, but is subpar even when specializing into attrition.
so is thief OP in this respect, or is necro UP? do blood magic and/or soul reaping need some serious tweaks?
@Knote
what do u mean by “10s massive healing from well”? u talking about the siphon trait?Nearly all of our healing in a bunker style build comes from Well of Blood. Scales insanely well with healing power and basically makes up like 50+% of our overall healing, the rest being regen basically. Lifesteal traits are such a small % of our healing.
So basically for 10 seconds every 32 seconds you can be nearly unkillable with a free 700 HPS on the ground after the initial big heal. Rotate that with Death Shrouds, and plague form and you can “bunker” but there are windows because it’s just rotating large defensive cooldowns. Plus you can be knocked out of your well and lose a good portion of your heals there.
Oh, and since we don’t heal in Death Shroud, having passive healing like regen/lifesteals conflicts with DS. One survivability tool nullifying another survivability tool.
But the thing is, the Thieves that do any significant condition damage don’t really put out that much standard damage, so in that respect. 1v1 condition Thief might be slightly better than Necro, but in a team fight the Necro is miles more devastating than any conditon build Thief with attrition or conditions IMO.
He’s talking about attrition however, not who can spam conditions.
In the context of what the OP is saying, they are the same thing. Not saying I agree with that statement, I’m saying that’s how he’s presenting it.
Jumzi (Ranger), Tarnished Coast
attrition – “The action or process of gradually reducing the strength or effectiveness of someone or something through sustained attack or pressure.”
does not have to be condition damage. usually means high sustain, while whittling someone down. thief is definitely an attrition prof, but the sustain is much too high in relation to how much damage they can put out effortlessly. this is the problem. necro is also supposed to be an attrition prof, but is subpar even when specializing into attrition.
so is thief OP in this respect, or is necro UP? do blood magic and/or soul reaping need some serious tweaks?
@Knote
what do u mean by “10s massive healing from well”? u talking about the siphon trait?Nearly all of our healing in a bunker style build comes from Well of Blood. Scales insanely well with healing power and basically makes up like 50+% of our overall healing, the rest being regen basically. Lifesteal traits are such a small % of our healing.
So basically for 10 seconds every 32 seconds you can be nearly unkillable with a free 700 HPS on the ground after the initial big heal. Rotate that with Death Shrouds, and plague form and you can “bunker” but there are windows because it’s just rotating large defensive cooldowns. Plus you can be knocked out of your well and lose a good portion of your heals there.
Oh, and since we don’t heal in Death Shroud, having passive healing like regen/lifesteals conflicts with DS. One survivability tool nullifying another survivability tool.
But the thing is, the Thieves that do any significant condition damage don’t really put out that much standard damage, so in that respect. 1v1 condition Thief might be slightly better than Necro, but in a team fight the Necro is miles more devastating than any conditon build Thief with attrition or conditions IMO.
He’s talking about attrition however, not who can spam conditions.
In the context of what the OP is saying, they are the same thing. Not saying I agree with that statement, I’m saying that’s how he’s presenting it.
Yeah, I guess the topic is more about bunkering overall then really.
i am saying that a thief specializing in condition damage can survive longer and whittle people down better (i.e. playing attrition) than a necro specializing in that role (attrition).
as knote mentioned, this likely has to do with the fact that thieves dont even need their traits to be effective.
But condition-thieves aren’t better than condition-necros, at all… :/
But condition-thieves aren’t better than condition-necros, at all… :/
nope, theyre not. not really the topic of the thread.
Yeah I made a condition thief, its strong gives up very little. It was one of the factors that had me shelve my Necro, not the condition thief itself but how limited Necros really are with builds and even the ‘best’ build is very specific down to the utility level. Its also easy to replace a Necro with anything and do better as a team IMO.
Can Necros be good, sure if the effort is put into it.
I had a two 1 v 1 against a rank 39 necro today in tpvp solid necro crushed him with my condition thief and I only have a few games under my belt as a thief…. Does that prove anything maybe, perhaps I just know what to expect because I played necro so much he did seem confused when I did not burst on him and was not glass at all. I would recommend all Necros make a condition based class Thief Ranger Mesmer etc… see how it pans out you might be shocked I was.
Condition Thief is strong I think its better then condition rangers to be honest, the bleeds stack so fast while in evade mode.
Xomox ~Human Necro/Engineer ET
(edited by Xom.9264)
thank you. the sustain of condi thieves is absolutely ridiculous.
thank you. the sustain of condi thieves is absolutely ridiculous.
It was one of my favorite builds for the longest time when I was playing thief and TBH if it wasn’t for the fact that stealth prevents capping, it would be insanely broken lol.
I definitely would not say thief attrition is better than necro’s. They do it in different ways. Thief relies on guerrilla tactics to wear down their opponent using stealth and mobility. They move in and out doing some damage then moving away or stealthing, then coming back and repeating. If they are applying bleeds with death blossom, they gain a lot of evade, leaving small windows for damage in between the DBs (which is more than enough time to kill him). Pistol/dagger condi thieves have to rely mostly on cloak and dagger to survive and to do damage. If they miss cloak and dagger for any reason, their damage output and survivability drop dramatically, plus they lose 6 initiative.
Necros wear down their opponent with superior survivability using death shroud and a large amount of crowd control condis like chill, cripple, and fear. Necro wells and marks allow them to create a deadly fortress on themselves while they whittle down their opponent with bleeds. Necros are more reliable sustain due to the ease of landing their large radius AOEs. Necros can have great control over the fight, and can basically play with their opponents like a helpless rag dolls.
Payne [PTC] Thief
Pancakes To Celebrate
Pancakes To Celebrate
Caltrops deal double damage – bug.
Caltrops deal double damage – bug.
Unless it’s a tooltip error, yeah. As strong as they are, I agree that it’s probably a bug rather than the tooltip.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
No wtf? Necros TRANSFER conditions while dealing their OWN condition damage into consideration, Thieves become annoying to play when the enemy team has AoE conditions. Do you see the real problem with Necros and Thieves? Necros are more broken in reality, that’s why I don’t even play with stun breaks anymore because its cheesy as hell yet people deny it.
Since people are negative about nerfs, how about we buff to balance then?
i am saying that a thief specializing in condition damage can survive longer and whittle people down better (i.e. playing attrition) than a necro specializing in that role (attrition).
as knote mentioned, this likely has to do with the fact that thieves dont even need their traits to be effective.
Not while holding a point. If a thief is using this for defense then they aren’t capping 50% of the time. Great for WvW though!