Guild Wars 2

I feel the need to address this topic because it is everywhere – in forum posts, people whining or flaming in sPVP matches, etc.
1. The initiative system promotes the use of the best ability for the given situation. IF the situation is “do damage,” then you will see skill spam (heartseeker for execute, death blossom to stack bleeds, unload for single target ranged dps, pistolwhip, etc). This is how the thief is designed…. You burst with the best burst skills in most situations (this obviously varies depending on the fight but we’re talking generalities here). So, could a thief, like any other class, go abilities 1 > 2 > 3> 4 > 5, or some such order? Yes, they could, but it doesn’t make sense given our resource system.
2. Pressing 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or a similar order does NOT take more skill than 3333 or 2222. I mean really, executing the abilities themselves in a video game IS NOT DIFFICULT.
3. Everyone focuses on “the ability spam” with comments. However, this occurs during only one phase of combat (the burst dps phase). Disclaimer: the following OBVIOUSLY varies depending on weapon set, the type of combat, etc. Also, the lines between phases can be blurred or interrupted. But again, speaking in general….
a. Initiation phase and pre-fight preparation – this includes targeting, positioning, and activation of any utilities ahead of time (no difference between classes)
b. DPS phase – for thieves, this is generally burst and generally over in a few seconds. This is where the most effective ability for DPS is used, often repeatedly until initiative is used up.
c. Evasion phase – the thief is out of initiative, potentially in melee range. They need to use their skill and remaining utilities to avoid damage, regen initiative, and still support the team (same as every other class)

“Skill spam” is ONE part of the combat process, and again, pressing 12345 is not more skillful than 33333.
Finally, people tend to notice the ability that did the most damage after being stomped and cry about spam. However, they don’t really notice how our other abilities are used. Example: I haste / unload someone to death. Did they notice i opened with vital shot to cause vulnerability? Did they notice that when i was stomping them, I used black powder to blind them and prevent their interrupt? No, they usually dont. All they see is unload – 16k or whatever.
Bad thieves spam abilities and think they are spamming abilities.
Decent thieves don’t want to spam abilities and “be that guy”, so they try other stuff and don’t use the class to its full potential.
The best thieves understand the initiative system, what is best for the moment, and utilize the class to its full potential, regardless of how the ignorant may cry.
TLDR; Due to the initiative system, thieves will use abilities repetitively for the situation at hand. If the situation is “do damage”, they will spam the highest damage ability. This is bust one phase of combat. Judge a players skill by their overall gameplay, NOT THE ORDER IN WHICH THEY PRESS BUTTONS.

All thieves WILL want to use pistol whip or heartseeker over and over (depending on the build) because it is their MAIN damage source. Thieves do not take much skill at all to play and to be honest their damage is way too high for the amount of mobility they have currently. Sure you can say they are squishy, but they ALSO have the most amount of evades in the game, not to mention stealth to evade attacks. And one of the most overpowered elites in the game (Thieves guild), Your argument seems invalid.

I agree with the OP, people complaining about Thieves spamming an ability have no clue.

BlackDeath.7834:

All thieves WILL want to use pistol whip or heartseeker over and over (depending on the build) because it is their MAIN damage source. Thieves do not take much skill at all to play and to be honest their damage is way too high for the amount of mobility they have currently. Sure you can say they are squishy, but they ALSO have the most amount of evades in the game, not to mention stealth to evade attacks. And one of the most overpowered elites in the game (Thieves guild), Your argument seems invalid.

I think you missed the point at hand. This is not a discussion about class balance or a comparison between classes. It is explaining why thieves will, inherently, repeat abilities. In fact, it seems you agreed with me in your statement about pistol whip (or similar damage abilities) being used over and over again because it is their main damage source.

The skill of a player is not determined by the order in which the press buttons. After this concept is out of the community, we can have better discussions about skill.

Blazer Hellsing.9184:

I agree with the OP, people complaining about Thieves spamming an ability have no clue.

While this guy is agreeing with you and disagreeing at the same time.

BlackDeath.7834:

Blazer Hellsing.9184:

I agree with the OP, people complaining about Thieves spamming an ability have no clue.

While this guy is agreeing with you and disagreeing at the same time.

What? I don’t understand, explain your statement.

BlackDeath.7834:

All thieves WILL want to use pistol whip or heartseeker over and over (depending on the build) because it is their MAIN damage source. Thieves do not take much skill at all to play and to be honest their damage is way too high for the amount of mobility they have currently. Sure you can say they are squishy, but they ALSO have the most amount of evades in the game, not to mention stealth to evade attacks. And one of the most overpowered elites in the game (Thieves guild), Your argument seems invalid.

Stealth does not evade. If your attack is initiated before Stealth, it still hits them through the stealth. This includes channeled ranged abilitys like Mesmers Unload, Thief Unload and the channeled long bow attack that Rangers have. Pets have similar behavior.

Edit to clarify:
If a Thief stealthes and the attack was evaded, he Shadowstepped or Dodged while stealthed.. which would’ve evade regardless of stealth.

Just to temper the theives, this forum will not dictate changes to the game. So no need to fight amongst one another on this overly discussed topic. Anet will make changes that are best for the game not to appease the “very few” ppl who frequent this forum.

So with that, I hand you all a cup of “let’s move on” and discuss builds/strats and all the other cool constructive conversations we could be having other then these.

Love you all equally.

Irishbrewed.6537:

Just to temper the theives, this forum will not dictate changes to the game. So no need to fight amongst one another on this overly discussed topic. Anet will make changes that are best for the game not to appease the “very few” ppl who frequent this forum.

So with that, I hand you all a cup of “let’s move on” and discuss builds/strats and all the other cool constructive conversations we could be having other then these.

Love you all equally.

The changes I was seeking to make were not of game mechanics, but how some of the community views thieves and how they use their abilities.

Some classes dont do anything with just 12345, they need to mix many abilities. On the other hand heartseeker or pistolwhip can be devastating with much less effort. I’m not calling for nerf, is just my point of view.

sami.3801:

Some classes dont do anything with just 12345, they need to mix many abilities. On the other hand heartseeker or pistolwhip can be devastating with much less effort. I’m not calling for nerf, is just my point of view.

Your point of view is in direct conflict with Arenanets design for the Thief, if you don’t like it play another game

Blazer Hellsing.9184:

sami.3801:

Some classes dont do anything with just 12345, they need to mix many abilities. On the other hand heartseeker or pistolwhip can be devastating with much less effort. I’m not calling for nerf, is just my point of view.

Your point of view is in direct conflict with Arenanets design for the Thief, if you don’t like it play another game

I dont think so. They already changed heartseeker.

Heartseeker: Reduced damage of the 100%-50% threshold by 20%. Damage thresholds changed. Old: 100%-66%, 66%-33%, 33%-0%. New: 100%-50%, 50%-25%, 25%-0%

Nefarious.2014:

Irishbrewed.6537:

Just to temper the theives, this forum will not dictate changes to the game. So no need to fight amongst one another on this overly discussed topic. Anet will make changes that are best for the game not to appease the “very few” ppl who frequent this forum.

So with that, I hand you all a cup of “let’s move on” and discuss builds/strats and all the other cool constructive conversations we could be having other then these.

Love you all equally.

The changes I was seeking to make were not of game mechanics, but how some of the community views thieves and how they use their abilities.

Oh I know man, but for the most part it’s really hard to change “Internet attitudes” , not saying ppl don’t have legitimate complaints but either way none of us are game developers and really can’t demand anything. So I think if we just try to avoid the negativity we will be in a better place.

Threads that are negative :"oh “x” class is OP!
Positive: “I keep getting wrecked by theives, this is my spec and any advise is appreciated”

Two threads on similar topics yet two different attitudes. I think that’s much more constructive. And if “x” class is a little op, then that decision will be based on in game metrics and game testing, it won’t be based on forum post. Which is all I was saying.

I think you have the right attitude, but it’s a sensitive topic on the forums it seems and very little constructive chatter has come from it.

Whata I know tho

You’re right; targetting your opponent, blowing cooldowns, and running away are very crucial steps aside from the 3333.

You should have listed ‘logging into the game’ as an important part of the “combat process” lol.

I don’t give akittenif someone wants to spam an ability until they magically win. That’s their decision to play without taking into account the other 9 abilities they have. What I DO care about is that they shouldn’t be able to spam the ability and be completely unharmed. There should be ways to counter this other than a well-placed blinding skill before they can get off the first hit. Pistol whip is not OP because it does ridiculous damage…. It doesn’t hurt that bad actually. What does hurt however is that I am completely helpless if a thief cloaks and sneaks up on me then spams pistol whip. I can use a stun breaker but they can spam pistol whip fast enough that it just makes me waste my stun break, and another if I brought 2 along. Dead in seconds, and as a purely offensive guardian, and a very tanky control-based warrior, I don’t even have the ability to dish out that kind of damage or defend myself from it.

I made a thief and took it into PvP and felt like I was cheating compared to my experience playing other classes. That shouldn’t be the case. Pistol whip should be used as a stun, not as a damage dealer. If that change is implemented, then it would force thieves to use a combination of skills, also giving their target a small window of opportunity to fight back, block attacks, reflect damage, or do SOMETHING to negate the stun lock.

MouthForWar.4210:

I don’t give akittenif someone wants to spam an ability until they magically win. That’s their decision to play without taking into account the other 9 abilities they have. What I DO care about is that they shouldn’t be able to spam the ability and be completely unharmed. There should be ways to counter this other than a well-placed blinding skill before they can get off the first hit. Pistol whip is not OP because it does ridiculous damage…. It doesn’t hurt that bad actually. What does hurt however is that I am completely helpless if a thief cloaks and sneaks up on me then spams pistol whip. I can use a stun breaker but they can spam pistol whip fast enough that it just makes me waste my stun break, and another if I brought 2 along. Dead in seconds, and as a purely offensive guardian, and a very tanky control-based warrior, I don’t even have the ability to dish out that kind of damage or defend myself from it.

I made a thief and took it into PvP and felt like I was cheating compared to my experience playing other classes. That shouldn’t be the case. Pistol whip should be used as a stun, not as a damage dealer. If that change is implemented, then it would force thieves to use a combination of skills, also giving their target a small window of opportunity to fight back, block attacks, reflect damage, or do SOMETHING to negate the stun lock.

Thieves DO use a combination of skills, just not when bursting someone. You just echo’d the same concept that I just wrote about. The BURST is one ability, everything else in the fight varies.

If pistol whip didn’t do damage, the weapon set would be useless. If thieves had cool downs, then none of this would be an issue, but they don’t. So don’t hold thieves to the same expectation of “skill rotations” as all other classes that have a DIFFERENT mechanic.

Other facts about pistol whip:
1. after “stunlocking” someone who apparently doesn’t have the ability to break that lock, the thief has 0 initiative, haste isn’t up for another 20 or so seconds, and the thief can burst no one.
2. the thief is essentially rooted (you can slowly move or change directions) and vulnerable in melee range the whole time
3. hundred blades does the same thing after a knockdown. if you dont have the ability to counter it, you are dead.
4. the thief that runs the crit pistol whip build has maybe, 14-16k hp.

Can we just remove the gap closer from heartseeker? Make it take some skill to land instead of spamming it and flying at the guy? I swear to god if someone replies and says “we need it! its one of our only gap closers” I want him banned from the forums. As for pistol whip idk how i would change it. But it really does do a lot of dmg possibly to much.

sami.3801:

I dont think so. They already changed heartseeker.

As well they should have. But one skill change doesn’t signify anything other than a need to reel in the skill itself. It certainly doesn’t constitute an admittance that the mechanic behind the class is the issue. Thieves are designed around the notion that their resource system allows them to do bursts, at the cost of leaving them less options if they starve that resource. Take note of the first part of that sentence; it is the more relevent to the discussion.

As to the side discussion about Pistol Whip, the ability is the second highest Initiative spender in the weapon set, self roots the thief, and if used with Haste, removes all Endurance on use. The damage output is high because there’s a lot of ways to escape and make the player look stupid as they wave their sword about and because the skills that it has synergy with have equally, if not steeper costs for use.

Even spammers have to have some skill to be efficient. Most of them are not playing smart, and just spamming HS hoping you’ll die eventually. Such players do not represent any threat to me (except when i’m out of my CDs and they jump me when i’m at 1/3 of my health).

And this is not about pressing 2222, or 1234, it’s about using your skills wisely. I agree, it’s the same for me pressing one skill 5 times, or pressing 5 skills one time, but what do you have from that if you do not use them wisely.

I really laugh all the time when i see thief spamming HS on me even when i’m in mist form. How is that skillful? Wasting your initiative for nothing, and ending up dead after that. I’m really looking forward to encounter those thiefs one on one.