Guild Wars 2

I got no problem going up against higher divison players
i can handle 1 or 2, no big deal

but when u put all the kittenters on 1 team

I cry

pretty kittening obvious you’re stacking it, anet
how is this “OK” conceptually?

If youre playing right now, its offpeak hours, so dont expect anything.

Otherwise, also dont expect “much” of a division = skill relation

Third and most,
dude its only 1 division difference. From those 10 players, it is very likely that some played 50, while others played 70 games so far and just cz of that small grind factor theyre a higher division.
2×2 premade, 320 score, it looks like a perfect normal match tbh.
Again, stop thinking that 1 divison difference is any indicator of skill difference, a valid complain would be if you have supergood (pro league) or superbad (svanir killers) type of players with you too often.

You are with 2 duoq teams….really what are you complaining about.

Whenever you lose, blame anything but yourself.

look you’re talking about abstract situations where “yes it’s doable, it’s possible!”

but i’m saying it’s flawed by design
it makes sense for some players with only 1 tier difference meet in a match
sure, no problem

but they are purposely stacking the higher mmr/skills players on 1 team
instead of evening them out

now that, in itself is not fair

darres.8203:

but they are purposely stacking the higher mmr/skills players on 1 team
instead of evening them out

now that, in itself is not fair

Why would it be fair for a high MMR player to be “evened out” with lesser teammates? That was actually the system in season 1 and it was wildly criticized.

Dream Shake.8741:

Why would it be fair for a high MMR player to be “evened out” with lesser teammates? That was actually the system in season 1 and it was wildly criticized.

so it’s alright to stack all the chips on 1 side?
is that really the better alternative?

darres.8203:

Dream Shake.8741:

Why would it be fair for a high MMR player to be “evened out” with lesser teammates? That was actually the system in season 1 and it was wildly criticized.

so it’s alright to stack all the chips on 1 side?
is that really the better alternative?

The players consistently stacked on the better side would have you to believe so. It benefits them, after all.

darres.8203:

Dream Shake.8741:

Why would it be fair for a high MMR player to be “evened out” with lesser teammates? That was actually the system in season 1 and it was wildly criticized.

so it’s alright to stack all the chips on 1 side?
is that really the better alternative?

Of course it is… ANet needs to take care of their ego… They need to feel they are good players. The others can just leave the game…

Jokes aside, many players were carried by good players in their matches. Sometimes you can get good matches even against all odds because the other side is not that good.

dont play off peak hours, i tried playing during those time and i accumulated a losing streak, i should have been in diamond 5 days ago :S

darres.8203:

I got no problem going up against higher divison players
i can handle 1 or 2, no big deal

but when u put all the kittenters on 1 team

I cry

pretty kittening obvious you’re stacking it, anet
how is this “OK” conceptually?

first screen: you are 13pis away from diamond and as far as i remember the range of the ppl you can play against/with goes up to 15pips, that means that the diamond players were propably all new diamond or had only one or two pips

second screen: you are in a party with ruby players , that means the system sees you as a ruby player too,or to be exact, it puts you in the same division as the highest ranked player in your party and the reason you play against diamond is propably the same as i explained for screen one

Sekai.2987:

darres.8203:

I got no problem going up against higher divison players
i can handle 1 or 2, no big deal

but when u put all the kittenters on 1 team

I cry

pretty kittening obvious you’re stacking it, anet
how is this “OK” conceptually?

first screen: you are 13pis away from diamond and as far as i remember the range of the ppl you can play against/with goes up to 15pips, that means that the diamond players were propably all new diamond or had only one or two pips

second screen: you are in a party with ruby players , that means the system sees you as a ruby player too,or to be exact, it puts you in the same division as the highest ranked player in your party and the reason you play against diamond is propably the same as i explained for screen one

yes, I understand how it works
and like i’ve stated before
I have no problem facing diamond league players
the problem I have is why do they always stack them on one side?
the system they created is artificial
a lie
an insult
they are not giving their players a fair shot
they are manipulating the MM

EDIT: crap I had another picture, forgot where i put it

The matchmaking isn’t ok in any way.

I queue solo every day. And the wins are either 500:100 or 100:500 – in any case they are never close.

My last match was a 180:500 defeat.

My Team:
3 players from Emerald – one of them came out of Amber a game before as he stated
2 players from Sapphire – a guardian and me (I’m Sapphire 4)

Opponents:
2 players from Sapphire
2 players from Ruby
1 didnt answer

That’s not at all a good matchmaking.

And by the matches I played over the weekend, there were a lot of those matches going on just.

My last five matches:

504:181
501:67
154:500
500:281
32:501

No afk’ers

Dream Shake.8741:

darres.8203:

but they are purposely stacking the higher mmr/skills players on 1 team
instead of evening them out

now that, in itself is not fair

Why would it be fair for a high MMR player to be “evened out” with lesser teammates? That was actually the system in season 1 and it was wildly criticized.

Maybe it was wildely criticised. However, it was fair as soon as a certain division was reached. Every player has the same probability to get assigned to a certain group. Hence, an average player has a probability of winning a game in 50% of the cases. The probability of winning 5 matches in a row (and winning a tier) are (1/2)^5=1/64. This is probable especially since I just calculate with the mean probability. Hence, everything beyond division 4 could be won by an average player by just playing many matches. However, from division 4 onwards, you could lose tiers. Thus, the probabilities changed. I did not count the total number of pipes in division 4. So I cannot calculate the exact probability for an average player. It should be (1/2)^(number of pipes). In other words, you will not get past division 4 if you are not better than the average of division 4. Since the better players move on to division 5, the average drops constantly. This problem can be overcome by either allowing to lose tiers from division 3 onwards or by adding divisions.

The current system (the mmr-system) changes the probability of a win and predetermines it for the player. An average player who joins a team of really good players gets more wins than a player with a really bad team. Consequently, the player with the really good teammates gets really good teammates again while the player with the bad teammates gets bad teammates again.

What can be done to avoid the painful time through low divisions for good players is that they get a 1 division rank-up at the beginning. Then they are among themselves and can rank up from there quickly.

Ok so I have to pull your card on this one:

1st photo is 2 two man teams of ruby (which you are one of) + 1 diamond soloq vs all soloq diamonds. You weren’t blown out.

2nd photo is interesting to say the least. Opposing team is 4 diamonds + 1 ruby solo q’rs vs your team of 1 diamond + 1 sapphire duo along with your trio of 2 ruby + 1 sapphire. This game is more lopsided and I would honestly blame the duo in this one b/c you have a diamond player paired with a sapphire. Either way all a trio on TS can carry vs much higher MMR players due to coordination.

That being said the most GLARING thing these screen shots reveal is that you are complaining about nothing. Now wait a minute how can I say that?!!!!

The only match up I can honestly get behind you on is the 2nd one. Yet the blame for that rests in the diamond+sapphire player who queue’d together. That being said I must say this:

In an estimated 22 games you’ve only had TWO bad match ups which you considered stacked. The 2nd SS shows you being at T2 Sapphire and losing. The 1st screen shot shows you at 1 Pip away from T5 Ruby

So by doing the math it’s at minimum 20 games between those 2 games IF YOU WENT ON A 20 GAME WIN STREAK. If you didn’t go on a 20 game win streak its much more. That is NOT bad match making, and I have to side with Anet on this scenario.

Thank You.

darres.8203:

Sekai.2987:

darres.8203:

I got no problem going up against higher divison players
i can handle 1 or 2, no big deal

Edit: If they haven´t changed it, when queuing in team matchmaking still depends on the highest division in your team. So it doesn´t matter that you were sapphire cause being in a team with ruby.
but when u put all the kittenters on 1 team

I cry

pretty kittening obvious you’re stacking it, anet
how is this “OK” conceptually?

first screen: you are 13pis away from diamond and as far as i remember the range of the ppl you can play against/with goes up to 15pips, that means that the diamond players were propably all new diamond or had only one or two pips

second screen: you are in a party with ruby players , that means the system sees you as a ruby player too,or to be exact, it puts you in the same division as the highest ranked player in your party and the reason you play against diamond is propably the same as i explained for screen one

yes, I understand how it works
and like i’ve stated before
I have no problem facing diamond league players
the problem I have is why do they always stack them on one side?
the system they created is artificial
a lie
an insult
they are not giving their players a fair shot
they are manipulating the MM

EDIT: crap I had another picture, forgot where i put it

Ok, Its kinda getting absurd with the complains…
Why they seem to stack on the other side? Well, on the pictures you had:
1 – two duoq ruby AND a dia (yeah, you got one, too)
2 – one duoq and one tripleq

If you team up with other players your mmr increases and you get enemies you probably wouldn´t get if queuing alone. Pretty simple.
Besides that you are in the second half of ruby, so its normal to fight dias.
Saying division = skill is like saying points made in match = skill, complete nonsense.

“Saying division = skill is like saying points made in match = skill, complete nonsense.”

alright then
let’s not stack all the high division on one side then
since it “clearly” doesn’t matter

High division? You know that everyone is within 15 pips of each other right? They were only a little higher than you but you had 2 duo-queues vs full solo queuers which should even it out if not give you a sizable advantage.

Dream Shake.8741:

High division? You know that everyone is within 15 pips of each other right? They were only a little higher than you but you had 2 duo-queues vs full solo queuers which should even it out if not give you a sizable advantage.

try again

darres.8203:

Dream Shake.8741:

High division? You know that everyone is within 15 pips of each other right? They were only a little higher than you but you had 2 duo-queues vs full solo queuers which should even it out if not give you a sizable advantage.

try again

this is a strange one , it should not happen that a full premade face pugs only, you should send that to evan, screen,date and time the match was held

Sekai.2987:

darres.8203:

Dream Shake.8741:

High division? You know that everyone is within 15 pips of each other right? They were only a little higher than you but you had 2 duo-queues vs full solo queuers which should even it out if not give you a sizable advantage.

try again

this is a strange one , it should not happen that a full premade face pugs only, you should send that to evan, screen,date and time the match was held

yep, full soloq against full 5-man premade should not happen, so that one is suspicious.

It should never happen that a group queues against solo players in the first place. Not 2-3 people and not full groups. group and solo queue should always be fully separated.

shagwell.1349:

It should never happen that a group queues against solo players in the first place. Not 2-3 people and not full groups. group and solo queue should always be fully separated.

Roughly 75% of the time I’m queued against premades larger than 3 I’ve won. I’m sorry but without knowing player base size, demanding that we get solo Q would likely be detrimental to the system.

Player’s that would like to group in 2 or 3 would have horrendous wait times, and the system would likely not be able to find suitable match-ups within the pip range further increasing wait time or pip/skill discrepancies.

The evidence provided in this thread very poorly supports the OP’s stance, as matches were close, OP appears to be progressing at a very steady rate despite “bad MM”, and according to everyone grouping/premades are the way to farm an easy legendary badge…

Though I do not have the data to give anyone as concrete evidence, the reason we don’t have Solo Q is more than likely due to what I’ve mentioned and that it would be detrimental to the health and population of PvP.

People should understand how matchmaking works at least before complaining. Seriously its working exactly as they said it would. Now you can say you don’t like how it works but understand how it works and the logic behind it. Yes, its totally fair to have all the good players on one side if we want league placement to be meaningful. If you run less then a full group why should you expect your teammates to be any better then you are.

Matchmakimg could definitely be better but, your 500 to 300+ score pic was a balanced game, needless to say.

In that game your team simply had poorer rotations than theirs. Also, don’t use Division position as a measurement of skill. Though there is a skill gap, there’s a slight difference between Sapphire vs Ruby and Ruby vs Diamond players.

Im not necessarily claiming this, but do you know how easy it is to Photoshop a match results screen"
Even the biggest Photoshop noobie could make a convincing fake matchup picture

brannigan.9831:

Yes, its totally fair to have all the good players on one side if we want league placement to be meaningful.

This is one of the most stupid argument I’ve ever read. A good player is good because he/she rises to the top without a match maker who favours him by stacking the games.

If he/she can’t “carry” an averaged MMR team, then he/she’s not that good. At least, that’s the “good” players argument.

And yet, they whined and protested during S1 for being teamed with lower than average players, but in S2 everything’s magically good, cause they don’t have to carry and/or lose games due to a stacking algorithm.

You’re at Trump-level logic, truly.

Galandil.9641:

brannigan.9831:

Yes, its totally fair to have all the good players on one side if we want league placement to be meaningful.

This is one of the most stupid argument I’ve ever read. A good player is good because he/she rises to the top without a match maker who favours him by stacking the games.

If he/she can’t “carry” an averaged MMR team, then he/she’s not that good. At least, that’s the “good” players argument.

And yet, they whined and protested during S1 for being teamed with lower than average players, but in S2 everything’s magically good, cause they don’t have to carry and/or lose games due to a stacking algorithm.

You’re at Trump-level logic, truly.

It’s a competitive ladder.

Your team is grouped by your MMR, which you share closely with your teammates. Enemy teams are based on pip range and have nothing to do with your MMR directly. Better players have a higher chance of winning, and subsequently should have a better MMR. As the season progresses players will be fleshed out by skill far more accurately than S1, and the ladder as a whole is a better representation of skill.

Stop ignoring the logic behind the system if you want to argue why or why not a competitive game ladder does or doesn’t work.

p.s. +1 to Branny

AegisFLCL.7623:

It’s a competitive ladder.

Your team is grouped by your MMR, which you share closely with your teammates. Enemy teams are based on pip range and have nothing to do with your MMR directly. Better players have a higher chance of winning, and subsequently should have a better MMR. As the season progresses players will be fleshed out by skill far more accurately than S1, and the ladder as a whole is a better representation of skill.

Stop ignoring the logic behind the system if you want to argue why or why not a competitive game ladder does or doesn’t work.

p.s. +1 to Branny

The one ignoring logic it’s you. Stop being so obtuse by switching cause and effect.

Astralporing.1957:

Sekai.2987:

darres.8203:

Dream Shake.8741:

High division? You know that everyone is within 15 pips of each other right? They were only a little higher than you but you had 2 duo-queues vs full solo queuers which should even it out if not give you a sizable advantage.

try again

this is a strange one , it should not happen that a full premade face pugs only, you should send that to evan, screen,date and time the match was held

yep, full soloq against full 5-man premade should not happen, so that one is suspicious.

I think he literally is lying and trying to fuse the argument. Probably a screenshot from last season.

Galandil.9641:

AegisFLCL.7623:

It’s a competitive ladder.

Your team is grouped by your MMR, which you share closely with your teammates. Enemy teams are based on pip range and have nothing to do with your MMR directly. Better players have a higher chance of winning, and subsequently should have a better MMR. As the season progresses players will be fleshed out by skill far more accurately than S1, and the ladder as a whole is a better representation of skill.

Stop ignoring the logic behind the system if you want to argue why or why not a competitive game ladder does or doesn’t work.

p.s. +1 to Branny

The one ignoring logic it’s you. Stop being so obtuse by switching cause and effect.

Stop making assumptions that the system is: luck based, rng, purposely stacking, doing anything in its’ power to keep you or any of these other players from the progress you’re entitled to.

When you or anyone else makes these statements based on assumption, they are ones ignoring logic and fact. Not a single user has provided player wide data supporting their claim that MM is “broken”. I see plenty of good solo Q players in legendary and diamond, and I’ve seen plenty of bad “primordial legend players” stuck in sapphire and ruby.

AegisFLCL.7623:

Stop making assumptions that the system is: luck based, rng, purposely stacking, doing anything in its’ power to keep you or any of these other players from the progress you’re entitled to.

When you or anyone else makes these statements based on assumption, they are ones ignoring logic and fact. Not a single user has provided player wide data supporting their claim that MM is “broken”. I see plenty of good solo Q players in legendary and diamond, and I’ve seen plenty of bad “primordial legend players” stuck in sapphire and ruby.

I’m not making “assumptions”. I just read and understood what has been stated by Anet in this blog post:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/pvp-league-season-two-changes/

If you want to continue to discuss the argument, please first read the blog post and understand it. There’re no assumptions here, the problem regarding match making is explained perfectly there. If you fail to understand it, it’s your problem, not mine.

darres.8203:

Dream Shake.8741:

High division? You know that everyone is within 15 pips of each other right? They were only a little higher than you but you had 2 duo-queues vs full solo queuers which should even it out if not give you a sizable advantage.

try again

Interestingly enough completed whited out 1 player’s name and rank on the other team. This leads me to believe you are now using SS’s from last season. Another telling sign is the fact you are running a bunker mesmer.

Please stop.

Galandil.9641:

I’m not making “assumptions”. I just read and understood what has been stated by Anet in this blog post:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/pvp-league-season-two-changes/

If you want to continue to discuss the argument, please first read the blog post and understand it. There’re no assumptions here, the problem regarding match making is explained perfectly there. If you fail to understand it, it’s your problem, not mine.

Ironic you can’t make an argument without linking exactly what I’ve explained to players in multiple threads so far, but I’ll spell it out just for you. And here’s a bonus, I won’t even look at the link!

- Players get matched in a team based on their MMR being close to teammates
- Teams then get matched based on a Pip range of +/- 15 (match-ups can cross divisions, and will also be based upon the highest ranked member in a party)
- Team A has higher MMR in an amber game than Team B
- Team A wins the amber game due to having better players regardless of the margin between the teams
- Team A progresses until out of Team B’s pip range
- Team A will never again play Team B unless they return to the same +/- 15 pip range
- This process is repeated for the same team and all other teams
- As the season progresses, the amount of allotted time will allow the system to best spread out players based on skill within that time restriction
- This is how a competitive ladder works; mind you this a TEAM game, having solo Q or being solely mechanically inclined does not mean everything, or entitle you to free progress.

Not too hard was it?

This system is infinitely better at determining player skill than season 1 was, however there are two things that could be improved upon: preseason placement and resetting all player MMR (while starting at a low vaule working up rather than starting at the middle).

QED, you didn’t understand how the system works.

The process is this:

- First, the matchmaker finds 10 players (regardless of their personal MMR) to put in a game, getting them from the +/-15 pips range.
- AFTER the 10 players are taken, they’re put in teams. And this is the step in which the MMR is taken into account, creating two teams which are always stacked: the best 5 MMR players on one team, the worst 5 MMR players on the other.

Already at this point the system is failing to create a fair match based on divisions.

But the consequences are even more dire.

Let’s say you have these MMR among the 10 players: 2000, 1900, 1800, 1700, 1500, 1500, 1400, 1300, 1200, 1000 (absolute values aren’t important, relative ones are). Since the MM puts players in team with “similar MMR”, ofc the 2 players who won’t go for sure in the same team are the 2k and the 1k guys.

After that, the 1.9k guy is the most similar to the 2k guy, so he will go in the 2k team. Same goes for the 1.2k guy, who will be matched in the 1k team. This process go on until you arrive at the two guys with 1.5k MMR.

And what happens now? Now the system isn’t able to chose among them, both teams have a slot left and no way to decide if guy A is better B or viceversa. So they are put in the teams at RANDOM. Let’s say A goes with the low MMR team, and B with the high MMR team.

Due to this randomness, A will lose the game with a higher probability than B. A will lose MMR points, while B will gain those.

What does this mean?

- B got, by pure chance, a more favorable chance of winning than A, even though his MMR is the same as A.
- B, after the match, will have a higher probability of getting put in teams with higher MMR than A, again by pure chance.

This is exactly the opposite of fair competition for all players involved, top, good, average, bad, and bottom of the barrel.

It’s the same problem that we had in S1, except it’s inverted. In S1, the MMR would be averaged out, so a good player would get matched in a team with the worst player, decreasing his chances to win (and here, moreover, all the kittened speeches about “carrying the game” falls, since this was the most whined thing about S1 apart from bunker builds). In S2, the system has just been inverted, giving the burden of getting the worst players to average ones, dooming them to lose a lot more than a good player in S1.

If you, and others, fail to see that this is the problem, then I don’t know really how to explain this to you in other terms.

Ah, ofc this problem is amplified by the small player pool for obvious reasons.