Guild Wars 2

Vena.8436:

Caffynated.5713:

You realize the guy used a carrion amulet and had 30 points in his power line. That’s 944 power, which is more than a zerker amulet. He still couldn’t put out enough damage to get the ele under the diamond skin threshold.

Aside from the rather nonsensical proposition of discussing a staged fight…

You realize he killed the ele? Right? He got through that threshold, and the ele melted.

He won what, one fight (not including when the thief jumped in)? Then the ele realized what he did, reacted to it and stomped him again. The ele wasn’t even a really good player. Who RTLs from beyond max range?

Caffynated.5713:

The ele wasn’t even a really good player. Who RTLs from beyond max range?

It was a fun duel just testing Diamond Skin, I was in no way trying to play well. If you want to dictate whether I am a good player or not from this then go ahead but this discussion isn’t about whether I’m a good ele or not it’s about whether Diamond Skin is a fair trait. Try to stay on topic instead of calling people bad for doing something which you perceive as a good way to justify why somebody is clearly so bad in your opinion.

No ele is going to run this … its a bad joke. It works on maybe 2 classes with a specific build that has absolutely no power in it (or smart enough to lifeblast / lifetransfer before applying conditions).

You think this is not fun … show the same ele vs a thief or warrior and see how useful that spec is.

Caffynated.5713:

mini.6018:

I really expected this from necros.I mean this was as perfectly prevedible like them stacking rabid gear and spam scepter auto in complete safety of full toughness paired with two healthbars.

I just wonder that instead of complaining, anyone considered rampager? I a using it on my warrior since a few days and works nicely.Except i need to actually know what i am doing because no armor at all.Why instead of free easymode nectos would venture into a more risky/skilled play? Someone might even find fun to actually have to do other except facetanking and spam condis/ds/condis/leech form/condis i win.Just saying.
Some risk maybe?
Wars were nerfed into less than useles for spvp again and still don’t complain as muh. (Probably because they got back to their necro main afwr they saw the patchnotes).But then they realised diamond skin said hello.

You realize the guy used a carrion amulet and had 30 points in his power line. That’s 944 power, which is more than a zerker amulet. He still couldn’t put out enough damage to get the ele under the diamond skin threshold.

You realize the guy was so bad he couldn’t even land his autoattacks on the ele?

Taldren.7523:

No ele is going to run this … its a bad joke. It works on maybe 2 classes with a specific build that has absolutely no power in it (or smart enough to lifeblast / lifetransfer before applying conditions).

You think this is not fun … show the same ele vs a thief or warrior and see how useful that spec is.

Which is exactly why the trait is in dire need of changing. It is only useful versus a couple of builds from a couple of classes, but against those builds, it is god mode. The trait is too binary.

The video also shows that when the necro plays his cards well, gets the ele down to under 90%, it’s game over for the ele since he lacks almost any condi removal other than his Diamond Skin trait. Also shows the ridiculous damage that condis do even in a short period.

You’re taking one example of a time he caught the ele with his pants down by using a Flesh Wurm. As soon as that fight was over, the elementalist adapted and for the next fight, spiked his Flesh Wurm out immediately. The fight was over at that point, because he could do absolutely nothing to bring him under 90%.

I agree with the people who are saying the trait is too binary, it is absolutely useless in group fights (2v2 or higher) because AoE damage is so prevalent, and is a complete immunity against condition builds that generally don’t have the mobility to escape an Elementalist. They can’t even choose to disengage the fight, they have to flail around and hope a teammate comes to rescue them.

Caffynated.5713:

He won what, one fight (not including when the thief jumped in)? Then the ele realized what he did, reacted to it and stomped him again. The ele wasn’t even a really good player. Who RTLs from beyond max range?

Flesh golem was on cooldown in the second encounter. The discussion about “adapting” is moot when the base-line consistency in repeatability is null.

TheGreatA.4192:

The video also shows that when the necro plays his cards well, gets the ele down to under 90%, it’s game over for the ele since he lacks almost any condi removal other than his Diamond Skin trait. Also shows the ridiculous damage that condis do even in a short period.

That’s an entirely separate issue that most of us in the Necro forum have been aware of for some time. The number of “change Dhuumfire to this” threads in our forum is quite large, as is the number of threads requesting that we get more sustain for a DPS hit. However, we can’t do anything about those things.

I also think a lot of people are too focused on “Terror-Dhuumfire nerf! Haha, you deserve it!” and are missing the bigger ramifications of Diamond Skin. I agree that in an ideal world, with all builds equal, spec’ing a max/min build for condition damage shouldn’t be the best in all scenarios. Doing so is the Necro’s choice, and they’ll just be making that knowing that Diamond Skin exists.
However, the problem is that trading some Condi damage for power is already sub-par due to our current balance, and this trait just makes that trade-off worse since it makes power based hits harder to land as we lose all of our control conditions like Chill and Cripple against a class with good vigor uptime and good mobility skills. The purpose of a hybrid is to be a build that is exactly average for that profession within the meta, while max/min condi/power are extremes that can be more powerful, but are easier to counter. Right now, hybrid is awful, Power is mediocre, and Condi is OP, so we simply have no other options.

It’s easy to take the Ele’s health down low enough for your skill-less, braindead condi spam to work, but if someone builds to defend themselves against a condi build expect it to work!

Also, I do not recognize ANY of your account names and none of you Necro apologists are anywhere near top 500 on LB so why should anyone take your opinions seriously?

jmatb.6307:

It’s easy to take the Ele’s health down low enough for your skill-less, braindead condi spam to work, but if someone builds to defend themselves against a condi build expect it to work!

Also, I do not recognize ANY of your account names and none of you Necro apologists are anywhere near top 500 on LB so why should anyone take your opinions seriously?

That’s a very nice ad hominem there. Even has a hint of strawman.
You fit the sample quote I provided above perfectly.

jmatb.6307:

It’s easy to take the Ele’s health down low enough for your skill-less, braindead condi spam to work, but if someone builds to defend themselves against a condi build expect it to work!

Also, I do not recognize ANY of your account names and none of you Necro apologists are anywhere near top 500 on LB so why should anyone take your opinions seriously?

You do realize that with a mere 20 points in Water Magic and Signet of Renewal, you can stand and auto-attack in water attunement to completely negate the necro’s direct damage? You would heal 274/second if you only auto-attacked once per second, and all water attunement autos fire faster than that. A necro’s direct DPS (with 30 points in our Power line and wearing a Carrion amulet) against a diamond skin ele (minimum 2300 armor) is a bit less than that (only 279 against 2200 armor).

You talk about braindead play? There you are. An ele running X/X/30/20/X can stand perfectly still, using their weakest auto-attack option, and still bring down a condition necro with no fear whatsoever.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

jmatb.6307:

It’s easy to take the Ele’s health down low enough for your skill-less, braindead condi spam to work, but if someone builds to defend themselves against a condi build expect it to work!

Also, I do not recognize ANY of your account names and none of you Necro apologists are anywhere near top 500 on LB so why should anyone take your opinions seriously?

You do realize that with a mere 20 points in Water Magic and Signet of Renewal, you can stand and auto-attack in water attunement to completely negate the necro’s direct damage? You would heal 274/second if you only auto-attacked once per second, and all water attunement autos fire faster than that. A necro’s direct DPS (with 30 points in our Power line and wearing a Carrion amulet) against a diamond skin ele (minimum 2300 armor) is a bit less than that (only 279 against 2200 armor).

You talk about braindead play? There you are. An ele running X/X/30/20/X can stand perfectly still, using their weakest auto-attack option, and still bring down a condition necro with no fear whatsoever.

The necro won’t die to an autoattacking water attuned ele either.

Ryld.1340:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

jmatb.6307:

It’s easy to take the Ele’s health down low enough for your skill-less, braindead condi spam to work, but if someone builds to defend themselves against a condi build expect it to work!

Also, I do not recognize ANY of your account names and none of you Necro apologists are anywhere near top 500 on LB so why should anyone take your opinions seriously?

You do realize that with a mere 20 points in Water Magic and Signet of Renewal, you can stand and auto-attack in water attunement to completely negate the necro’s direct damage? You would heal 274/second if you only auto-attacked once per second, and all water attunement autos fire faster than that. A necro’s direct DPS (with 30 points in our Power line and wearing a Carrion amulet) against a diamond skin ele (minimum 2300 armor) is a bit less than that (only 279 against 2200 armor).

You talk about braindead play? There you are. An ele running X/X/30/20/X can stand perfectly still, using their weakest auto-attack option, and still bring down a condition necro with no fear whatsoever.

The necro won’t die to an autoattacking water attuned ele either.

And how would the necro not die? He is taking damage and, unlike on the ele, it sticks due to only having the #6 to regain health, and even with no power investment, the ele will deal more damage every 26 seconds than consume conditions can heal. Feast of Corruption would give no life force at all because there are no conditions on the target. Necrotic Grasp, the only other source of life force for condition necros, travels so slowly, you can cause it to miss with light strafing.

It may take a long time, but the necro would die. The ele might have to sidestep some slow-moving projectiles, though, so I guess my earlier portrayal isn’t 100% accurate.

Caffynated.5713:

mini.6018:

I really expected this from necros.I mean this was as perfectly prevedible like them stacking rabid gear and spam scepter auto in complete safety of full toughness paired with two healthbars.

I just wonder that instead of complaining, anyone considered rampager? I a using it on my warrior since a few days and works nicely.Except i need to actually know what i am doing because no armor at all.Why instead of free easymode nectos would venture into a more risky/skilled play? Someone might even find fun to actually have to do other except facetanking and spam condis/ds/condis/leech form/condis i win.Just saying.
Some risk maybe?
Wars were nerfed into less than useles for spvp again and still don’t complain as muh. (Probably because they got back to their necro main afwr they saw the patchnotes).But then they realised diamond skin said hello.

You realize the guy used a carrion amulet and had 30 points in his power line. That’s 944 power, which is more than a zerker amulet. He still couldn’t put out enough damage to get the ele under the diamond skin threshold.

You do realize that even if you run full zerk you won’t be doing any damage if you only spam condi skills?

Thanks for the video. It definitely shows how aweful hard counters are. Why did AR need an uglier cousin?

mini.6018:

Caffynated.5713:

mini.6018:

I really expected this from necros.I mean this was as perfectly prevedible like them stacking rabid gear and spam scepter auto in complete safety of full toughness paired with two healthbars.

I just wonder that instead of complaining, anyone considered rampager? I a using it on my warrior since a few days and works nicely.Except i need to actually know what i am doing because no armor at all.Why instead of free easymode nectos would venture into a more risky/skilled play? Someone might even find fun to actually have to do other except facetanking and spam condis/ds/condis/leech form/condis i win.Just saying.
Some risk maybe?
Wars were nerfed into less than useles for spvp again and still don’t complain as muh. (Probably because they got back to their necro main afwr they saw the patchnotes).But then they realised diamond skin said hello.

You realize the guy used a carrion amulet and had 30 points in his power line. That’s 944 power, which is more than a zerker amulet. He still couldn’t put out enough damage to get the ele under the diamond skin threshold.

You do realize that even if you run full zerk you won’t be doing any damage if you only spam condi skills?

that’s the problem…ppl qqing cause they can’t win with just random spam, seriously? If all you can do is spam random conditions around you’re playing bad or playing a bad spec and both don’t deserve rewards…too many braindead spam builds around already WAY too rewarding for the effort needed to play, one got countered and everyone starts whining…wtf is wrong with pvp community is beyond me..

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

You talk about braindead play? There you are. An ele running X/X/30/20/X can stand perfectly still, using their weakest auto-attack option, and still bring down a condition necro with no fear whatsoever.

Going to repeat this. While condition necros were lower skill floor than many (even necros) like, the way to fix it is not to introduce an even more braindead counter.

Now that I got to see the video … why didn’t you do D/F + S/D? Yeah, you lose marks, but you gain AE immobilize when combined with epidemic. Life Siphon and Reapers Touch eat Eles.

Also, why no Life Transfer or Life Blast? 2-3 LBs would have dropped him below the threshold too.

Your mistake is you turned your back on him and stopped attacking. Your passive play was to blame mostly.

first off i hate diamond skin i think it is a terrible trait and should not have been implemented.

But this talk about hard counters I have to ask how may ele builds prior to diamond skin could take out a condi necro, of equal or even lesser skill, without outplaying them many times over?

Oh, Eles needed some assistance all right, after the D/D cantrip nerfs (when that was still strong, most necros didn’t bother fighting because the ele could remove conditions faster than they were applied). That still doesn’t change the fact Diamond Skin was the wrong way to do it. Perhaps some cooldown reductions on the condition cleanses the ele has (because eles do actually have very good condition cleanse abilities compared to most classes) or reverting some (not all!) of the D/D cantrip nerfs would have been a better move.

You’re not wrong. But Diamond Skin takes that problem and creates an even worse hard-counter. Not to mention the fact that it ALSO screws over the barely passable power Necros that rely on Chill/Immobilize/Cripple to even reach melee range on an non D/D Ele.

CutePicsHunter.7430:

Bhawb.7408:

It is to show how bad of a design choice this is. No build should be completely unable to do anything to another, no matter what.

This only shows how stupid OP is, nothing more.

He didn’t use corrupt boon to rip off regen and protection, instead of focus (3 more boons remove) he took dagger. This idiot didn’t even try to take bone minions (1,6k damage against 2600 armor each). Well of blood + blast for retaliation? Too easy.

Valheru Baal.9456:

I can clearly see that most players in defense of Diamond Skin completely ignore the fact that it is not skill based.

The same as condition spam. It is passive, condition’s are passive too. You just stack them and mostly it hurts as hell.

Lets look at it from other side. What if i don’t want to take any sort of condition remove and still want to win against necros? As an ele, for example. Do you think that it is possible? I guess you will say “take some condition remove or it will be nearly impossible”. So, when you’re crying about diamond skin, I will only say “take something to deal 2k damage”.

I am so frustrated about how stupid this thread is. People discussing about duel between nearly-pure-1×1-anti-condition-build against sad-condi-necro and how hard is to win this for necro without any efforts or decent changes in build. Uuu, bad design! I have an interesting fact for you: you won’t be able to win any 1×1 meta builds with your tpvp build. Facepalm. Go to your profession forum and cry there.

I was kinda harsh, but, erm… No objections and necros still whining here?
Seems like speculation attempt for meh.

So, one build can potentially counter another build in 1vs1. I’m not fond of how Diamond Skin turned out, but it would be like facing the former spirit ranger as a burst ele. The ele will die almost every time. Can’t faceroll all builds out there. Try adapting.

amazing! this thread looks like the elementalist forum have been for a long time and still is, alot of people complaining!

About that new necromancer heal doesnt it steal health? I mean you say that the new heal is bad and that diamond skin is overpowered why not just use your new heal steal health 1 or 2k and bam diamond skin aint taking effect.

I’d also like to add that an elementalist let go off alot of damage to pick up this trait which might be very strong agianst rabid/settlers but as said would be completly useless vs a thief for example. A Grandmaster trait that is useless vs certain classes but good vs others, a fair trade!

Didnt see anyone complain about that warrior trait that makes them deal more damage depending on how meny boons their oppenent has.

+

this is a teamfight oriented game and shaving 1-2k hp off a elementalist is a pretty simple task if you bring a friend.

magical giant.8650:

amazing! this thread looks like the elementalist forum have been for a long time and still is, alot of people complaining!

Clearly you have never set foot in the Necro forums if you this is special. The only difference is now we’re also posting outside that subforum. shrug

About that new necromancer heal doesnt it steal health? I mean you say that the new heal is bad and that diamond skin is overpowered why not just use your new heal steal health 1 or 2k and bam diamond skin aint taking effect.

Wasting my heal, given my profession has some of the worst sustain in the game, just to overcome your passive effect seems kind of unbalanced. Following that logic, Ele’s didn’t need this since Ether Renewal would just cleanse Dhuumfire, but as it turns out, that didn’t quite work in practice.

I’d also like to add that an elementalist let go off alot of damage to pick up this trait which might be very strong agianst rabid/settlers but as said would be completly useless vs a thief for example. A Grandmaster trait that is useless vs certain classes but good vs others, a fair trade!

That’s really up to you, but to me, that seems awful, as you screw over exactly one build by giving little chance to compete while gaining virtually no added benefits. Not only does this suck for Necros, it seems pretty bad for Eles too.

magical giant.8650:

Didnt see anyone complain about that warrior trait that makes them deal more damage depending on how meny boons their oppenent has.
+
this is a teamfight oriented game and shaving 1-2k hp off a elementalist is a pretty simple task if you bring a friend.

I don’t see what the first part has to do with this. Extra damage is not the same as immunity – you can dodge a Warrior’s extra hard hits.
As for the second comment, while it’s true, relying on your team is just terrible form. Why would any team want to bring someone that has to be carried? Necros already suffered focus-fire issues and often needed a hand – now we need support to do damage as well?

The new heal steals health, kinda. At max, 2k health, assuming they stand there and let us hit them when they have a giant red circle above their heads. It means they might have to dodge or use a non-auto-attack skill

Balefire.7592:

Necros already suffered focus-fire issues and often needed a hand – now we need support to do damage as well?

Why do you think necromancers suffer focused fire? because you deal tons of damage and can wreck a whole team if not taken care of. So No I don’t think you need support dealing damage. When I have a necromancer on my team I usualy want to team up with him since necromancer and elementalist synergize really well together but as it turns out things get nasty when we fight. ^^

About the warrior trait of course it aint the same thing but it’s still a situational trait my point is that I belive people are taking things alittle to far on how good this trait is.

magical giant.8650:

Balefire.7592:

Necros already suffered focus-fire issues and often needed a hand – now we need support to do damage as well?

Why do you think necromancers suffer focused fire? because you deal tons of damage and can wreck a whole team if not taken care of. So No I don’t think you need support dealing damage. When I have a necromancer on my team I usualy want to team up with him since necromancer and elementalist synergize really well together but as it turns out things get nasty when we fight. ^^

About the warrior trait of course it aint the same thing but it’s still a situational trait my point is that I belive people are taking things alittle to far on how good this trait is.

No, necros suffered from focus fire even before the notorious Dhuumfire patch. They get focus-fired because they can do nothing to prevent it and can’t escape. All that changed on that patch was now there was a bigger reason to focus the necro first and a bigger reason for your team to try and prevent it.

And the Warrior trait still applies to all classes pretty regularly, it’s just a question of magnitude. Obviously Guardians and eles get hit hardest with it, but necros and thieves usually have a boon or two as well. Diamond Skin really only applies to necros because they lack the direct damage to break it in a condi build or the ability to catch the ele to deal damage in a power build (since the ele can’t be snared and power necro is >600 range).

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Ryld.1340:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

jmatb.6307:

It’s easy to take the Ele’s health down low enough for your skill-less, braindead condi spam to work, but if someone builds to defend themselves against a condi build expect it to work!

Also, I do not recognize ANY of your account names and none of you Necro apologists are anywhere near top 500 on LB so why should anyone take your opinions seriously?

You do realize that with a mere 20 points in Water Magic and Signet of Renewal, you can stand and auto-attack in water attunement to completely negate the necro’s direct damage? You would heal 274/second if you only auto-attacked once per second, and all water attunement autos fire faster than that. A necro’s direct DPS (with 30 points in our Power line and wearing a Carrion amulet) against a diamond skin ele (minimum 2300 armor) is a bit less than that (only 279 against 2200 armor).

You talk about braindead play? There you are. An ele running X/X/30/20/X can stand perfectly still, using their weakest auto-attack option, and still bring down a condition necro with no fear whatsoever.

The necro won’t die to an autoattacking water attuned ele either.

And how would the necro not die? He is taking damage and, unlike on the ele, it sticks due to only having the #6 to regain health, and even with no power investment, the ele will deal more damage every 26 seconds than consume conditions can heal. Feast of Corruption would give no life force at all because there are no conditions on the target. Necrotic Grasp, the only other source of life force for condition necros, travels so slowly, you can cause it to miss with light strafing.

It may take a long time, but the necro would die. The ele might have to sidestep some slow-moving projectiles, though, so I guess my earlier portrayal isn’t 100% accurate.

Sorry, was at work.

Necro has high up time of Regeneration with Staff. Necro has their heal skill. Necro also have Death Shroud to absorb damage.

Water auto attack also has pitiful damage.

Did you see the way that necro got completely destroyed!
LOL!!!!!

All, working as intended.
Learn to Play Noob!

- Sincerely Anet Balance Team.

gesho.9468:

dunno what the point of this video. i can always make a specific two builds where one would trump the other to ground. so what?

QFT

before this patch, even newbie necro on spvp duel situations was able to own skilled ele
now its time to switch positions
but ele still weakest class in the game
this video only show one passive earth skill (trait against coditions) wich can be canceled after 10% direct damage to ele. after that ele again become crap
meanwhile, thief class, second year, continue ruin all pvp fun..

Balefire.7592:

magical giant.8650:

About that new necromancer heal doesnt it steal health? I mean you say that the new heal is bad and that diamond skin is overpowered why not just use your new heal steal health 1 or 2k and bam diamond skin aint taking effect.

Wasting my heal, given my profession has some of the worst sustain in the game, just to overcome your passive effect seems kind of unbalanced.

Of course any scenario where Necro doesn’t immediately melt face and have a heal left over for afterwards is ‘unbalanced’. You’re not ‘wasting’ the skill, you’re using it for effect.

Don’t expect a lot of sympathy if you have the capability to win an encounter but refuse to use the appropriate skills on principle.

entropy.9613:

Balefire.7592:

magical giant.8650:

About that new necromancer heal doesnt it steal health? I mean you say that the new heal is bad and that diamond skin is overpowered why not just use your new heal steal health 1 or 2k and bam diamond skin aint taking effect.

Wasting my heal, given my profession has some of the worst sustain in the game, just to overcome your passive effect seems kind of unbalanced.

Of course any scenario where Necro doesn’t immediately melt face and have a heal left over for afterwards is ‘unbalanced’. You’re not ‘wasting’ the skill, you’re using it for effect.

Don’t expect a lot of sympathy if you have the capability to win an encounter but refuse to use the appropriate skills on principle.

But, but, but, what about build variety and play how you want to play kind of principle?

Yeah, whiners gonna whine. This trait is definitely a diamond counter and is absurdly OP in a 1v1 situation however only against a certain type of build but borderline useless in teamfights. Learn to pick fights or adapt to a well-rounded build if you want to stand a chance against all builds available out there.

Pro-tip: Don’t 1v1 a DS ele if you’re a pure condi-spam build.

Don’t get me wrong. I personally do not like this kind of approach to fix a broken condi-spam mechanic. Instead of fixing the real issue, they add yet another facepalm issue. But as it stands, DS will stay for a while, and until that nerf or change to DS comes (probably won’t), like what all eles did after the blow by blow nerfs and dhuumfire patch, try to adapt or reroll a warrior.

Gallrvaghn.4921:

This trait is definitely a diamond counter and is absurdly OP in a 1v1 situation however only against a certain type of build but borderline useless in teamfights. Learn to pick fights or adapt to a well-rounded build if you want to stand a chance against all builds available out there.

Personally, I doubt I’ll use it much. I don’t really want to tank my damage for such a situational perk, but I don’t have a problem with the skill per se.

I have bigger issues. Sometimes, when pvping, I’ll go up against someone and I’ll be bursting them down and then, suddenly, get this… they turn INVISIBLE!

I mean, whhaaaaat!? So OP. No counterplay. Unbalanced. Nerf pls.

balance sugestion about necro??? Come and share

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Necro-improvement-Deffensive-Side-in-PvP/first#post3359466

Balefire.7592:

magical giant.8650:

amazing! this thread looks like the elementalist forum have been for a long time and still is, alot of people complaining!

Clearly you have never set foot in the Necro forums if you this is special. The only difference is now we’re also posting outside that subforum. shrug

About that new necromancer heal doesnt it steal health? I mean you say that the new heal is bad and that diamond skin is overpowered why not just use your new heal steal health 1 or 2k and bam diamond skin aint taking effect.

Wasting my heal, given my profession has some of the worst sustain in the game, just to overcome your passive effect seems kind of unbalanced. Following that logic, Ele’s didn’t need this since Ether Renewal would just cleanse Dhuumfire, but as it turns out, that didn’t quite work in practice.

I’d also like to add that an elementalist let go off alot of damage to pick up this trait which might be very strong agianst rabid/settlers but as said would be completly useless vs a thief for example. A Grandmaster trait that is useless vs certain classes but good vs others, a fair trade!

That’s really up to you, but to me, that seems awful, as you screw over exactly one build by giving little chance to compete while gaining virtually no added benefits. Not only does this suck for Necros, it seems pretty bad for Eles too.

magical giant.8650:

Didnt see anyone complain about that warrior trait that makes them deal more damage depending on how meny boons their oppenent has.
+
this is a teamfight oriented game and shaving 1-2k hp off a elementalist is a pretty simple task if you bring a friend.

I don’t see what the first part has to do with this. Extra damage is not the same as immunity – you can dodge a Warrior’s extra hard hits.
As for the second comment, while it’s true, relying on your team is just terrible form. Why would any team want to bring someone that has to be carried? Necros already suffered focus-fire issues and often needed a hand – now we need support to do damage as well?

That is the second time you’ve mentioned that having someone else on your team get an eli under 90% is carrying you. Do you not understand the fundamentals of a team game? A team carrying you would consist of you not being able to kill anyone on the team meaning the whole opposite team would be diamond skin eli’s meaning that you weren’t doing anything for the team and thus your team could have won without you. What you’re saying basically is that you don’t care about your team imo. Like they say there is no I in team. A team helps each other in different situations. Do you realize if you have a bunker guardian on your team that since he’s soaking up all the damage and dispencing heals to you according to what you’re saying you are being carried by him. What you’re saying is that you shouldn’t need your team. You’ve got this game all messed up man. And I’m not being harsh at all, I’m just saying that you’re completely wrong about being “carried” by your team. I could name a situation with every single class besides a guardian with this as well. Argument=invalid. Its a team game period. All I can say is don’t go in a dueling arena and play a diamond skin eli cause that’s all you seem worried about. Everyone on a team has to rely on each other in order to succeed. If one person isn’t doing their job right on a team you can lose simple as that. “You” don’t carry your team. A team carries each other.

I seem to remember engis having a similar immunity trait; what is the difference here exactly?

Ryld.1340:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Ryld.1340:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

jmatb.6307:

It’s easy to take the Ele’s health down low enough for your skill-less, braindead condi spam to work, but if someone builds to defend themselves against a condi build expect it to work!

Also, I do not recognize ANY of your account names and none of you Necro apologists are anywhere near top 500 on LB so why should anyone take your opinions seriously?

You do realize that with a mere 20 points in Water Magic and Signet of Renewal, you can stand and auto-attack in water attunement to completely negate the necro’s direct damage? You would heal 274/second if you only auto-attacked once per second, and all water attunement autos fire faster than that. A necro’s direct DPS (with 30 points in our Power line and wearing a Carrion amulet) against a diamond skin ele (minimum 2300 armor) is a bit less than that (only 279 against 2200 armor).

You talk about braindead play? There you are. An ele running X/X/30/20/X can stand perfectly still, using their weakest auto-attack option, and still bring down a condition necro with no fear whatsoever.

The necro won’t die to an autoattacking water attuned ele either.

And how would the necro not die? He is taking damage and, unlike on the ele, it sticks due to only having the #6 to regain health, and even with no power investment, the ele will deal more damage every 26 seconds than consume conditions can heal. Feast of Corruption would give no life force at all because there are no conditions on the target. Necrotic Grasp, the only other source of life force for condition necros, travels so slowly, you can cause it to miss with light strafing.

It may take a long time, but the necro would die. The ele might have to sidestep some slow-moving projectiles, though, so I guess my earlier portrayal isn’t 100% accurate.

Sorry, was at work.

Necro has high up time of Regeneration with Staff. Necro has their heal skill. Necro also have Death Shroud to absorb damage.

Water auto attack also has pitiful damage.

D/D auto has vulnerability, nerf pls, much OP

Zomaarwat.3912:

I seem to remember engis having a similar immunity trait; what is the difference here exactly?

.Difference is You need to take down 25% of an engi using only power instead of just 10 %, tanks more damage , has more hp and it’s a lot more dangerous than ele.Just that.

Ok, I asked this earlier in another topic, but didn’t get a response. If an ele with that build is completely immune to conditions, then how does the necro get his health down? Our damage with the scepter or staff is clearly not high enough, and for dagger and axe you need to get close. But the elementalist is a class with quite a lot of mobility, and he’s immune to cripple this way. So, how does a necromancer realistically close that gap?

Ryld.1340:

Sorry, was at work.

Necro has high up time of Regeneration with Staff. Necro has their heal skill. Necro also have Death Shroud to absorb damage.

Water auto attack also has pitiful damage.

High regen uptime with staff assumes that the ele is sitting in melee range. The necro can’t get the regen unless he is standing in the mark when it gets triggered. Again, Death Shroud is a one-time resource against a DS ele because the condition necro can’t gain life force (they require conditions on the target). Power necros can’t gain life force (or deal damage) either if the ele stays at >600 range.

Even doing the lowest damage auto-attack, the ele WILL wear down the necro to death.

mini.6018:

Zomaarwat.3912:

I seem to remember engis having a similar immunity trait; what is the difference here exactly?

.Difference is You need to take down 25% of an engi using only power instead of just 10 %, tanks more damage , has more hp and it’s a lot more dangerous than ele.Just that.

The difference is that the Engineer can’t just out-heal the direct damage. If he does, he loses his immunity. You can still bring down a AR Engineer with condition builds, that last 25% just takes longer than the other 75%.

An ele, however, there is no playstyle tradeoff. You always want to be close to full health.

i’d say this wasn’t a problem if any sort of power necro build could contend with a d/d ele 1v1.

Condi necro isn’t viable anymore, yet anet still nerf bleed stacks, condi durations, weakness icds… Give necros new power weapons and build options then. Currently, the only “kinda” viable build is MM. Ele, mesmer, warrior(hammer spammer), thief(perma evade) all of these classes can easily faceroll a necro if you assume both of players use their characters at the same skill level. Stop nerfing necro and start nerfing hammer spam warriors, perma evade spam thieves, undying eles and zerker tank guards. All of these class builds are superior op against any necro/ranger/engi build plus these builds are a lot easier to play. I can’t understand why they nerf necros while there’s this kind of ultra op builds. They can’t even give an explanation, there’s no dev messages in necro forums since 1 month. Because there’s no logical explanation to necro nerfs.

Umut.5471:

Condi necro isn’t viable anymore, yet anet still nerf bleed stacks, condi durations, weakness icds… Give necros new power weapons and build options then. Currently, the only “kinda” viable build is MM. Ele, mesmer, warrior(hammer spammer), thief(perma evade) all of these classes can easily faceroll a necro if you assume both of players use their characters at the same skill level. Stop nerfing necro and start nerfing hammer spam warriors, perma evade spam thieves, undying eles and zerker tank guards. All of these class builds are superior op against any necro/ranger/engi build plus these builds are a lot easier to play. I can’t understand why they nerf necros while there’s this kind of ultra op builds. They can’t even give an explanation, there’s no dev messages in necro forums since 1 month. Because there’s no logical explanation to necro nerfs.

What game have you been playing ?

It was a poor design decision to make conditions alone a viable way of killing an opponent in PvP anyway.

Swagg.9236:

It was a poor design decision to make conditions alone a viable way of killing an opponent in PvP anyway.

I disagree. The damage aspect of some conditions is a very good DoT for attrition builds. Howerever, due to scaling and the ability to dump almost all kinds of damaging conditions of high stacks high duration and most of the time randomly together with non damaging but crippling conditions, condi-builds becomes less strategic and becomes all about AOE spam.

Gallrvaghn.4921:

Swagg.9236:

It was a poor design decision to make conditions alone a viable way of killing an opponent in PvP anyway.

I disagree. The damage aspect of some conditions is a very good DoT for attrition builds. Howerever, due to scaling and the ability to dump almost all kinds of damaging conditions of high stacks high duration and most of the time randomly together with non damaging but crippling conditions, condi-builds becomes less strategic and becomes all about AOE spam.

Attrition Game-play
Attrition combat is being able to deal damage to an opponent while presenting an encounter that an enemy only realizes too late that it can’t win. In GW2, the most powerful thing that a player can do to an opponent (that isn’t stunning them) while still dealing damage to them is controlling that opponent’s movement. Staff elementalist is a good example of GW2 attrition game-play in all honesty. You have a lot of ground-targeted CC that obstructs or slows movement while the elementalist continues to litter the ground with deadly attacks on delay timers.

Necromancer was designed as “the attrition class.” However, with past updates, ANet has simply turned the Necromancer into a burst DPS class. Necromancers simply rotate very quickly through spam-centric, fast-activating skills and vomit conditions onto a target. Then they kite and spam 1 until it dies from condition DPS. That’s not attrition, that’s a DPS class. ANet goofed.

Moreover, condition-centric builds in general go in contrary to the fundamental designs of GW2 because they often rely on passive procs (which have no counter-play). Condition builds simply front-load a long series of attacks that an opponent would have to unload every possible dodge and damage-mitigating skill in order to avoid lest they simply bleed out while the condition player runs around spamming throw-away skills like an auto-attack. After that first salvo, the condition player is done playing. They don’t have to hit their opponent anymore, they just let them bleed out. Even if that opponent somehow cleanses a mountain of conditions, the condition player just gets them all back again 10-20 seconds later because of the short cool-downs. Then, because there aren’t any real cast-times to hold them back, they just spam the same rotation with relative impunity.

Combat in this game would be a lot easier to follow if power skills (supplemented by mild condition damage) with hefty cast-times and strong animation cues were the primary way to deal damage, players would have to keep up sustained hits on an opponent while positioning and CC’ing properly in order to take it down instead of just front-loading an attack, follow up by kiting and spamming 1, and wait for the enemy to bleed out or for your cool-downs to come back up so you can front-load an attack again.

In the current meta-game, power is at a disadvantage because it has to actually hit a target while conditions just sort of float about thanks to spammy AoE skills, short cast-times, the ranged nature of most condition skills and passive procs. None of those have to constantly hit, the condition player just gets to use skills willy-nilly and all the while get in damage for free because of conditions. The system is flawed and should really be looked at critically.

Power should be king with conditions being a supplement. Attrition combat should be attained through movement control.