Guild Wars 2

Brief preface: i main engineer.

The main things stopping engineers from just running riot in teamfights crapping condis out on everyone is a warrior to keep them CC’d during duration of zerker stance, and a necro to return those condis as well as melt an engineer down quickly. Otherwise you’ve kind of got thieves who just need a little bit of attention from an engineer to handle, rangers if the engineer gets caught out of position and maybe a DPS guardian if he doesn’t die from 2138471234 conditions first. Engineers are pretty kitten good.

In a 1v1 I’d have to say the only things that can beat me are potentially a condi warrior (relies on what goes on with Impale and Pin Down – do they get dodged, reflected, do I take it etc), a hambow warrior (depending on whether I fight on point or not or if I play well), a necro with some level of death shroud before joining the fight (consume conditions + too many condition returns to handle + too many conditions in general). Spirit ranger is cake, sometimes even if they have the res spirit up. Thieves and mesmers have to be VERY good to beat engineers in a 1v1 – that is, I have to kitten up, and the thief has to be good enough to realise that I’ve kittened up and capitalise on it. Other than that I can just kitten out a few condis onto them and they’ll just melt.

Engis in the ready up discussion got a few slap on the wrist nerfs to something not even relevant (Net turret? what…) whereas warriors are getting a heavy nerf (8% doesn’t sound like much, but considering healing signet is the only thing keeping them alive and it already doesn’t hold a candle to the kind of condis and poison an engi can put out, it’s hefty) and necro’s dhuumfire is becoming significantly counterplayable (we are talking probably a much, much easier fight for an engi given reflects and blocks for life blast), I don’t think there will be much to stop engineers rampaging around a map destroying everything and anything in their way with massive condi burst. Honestly I don’t much doubt that they’ll be in a position kind of like what Spirit Ranger was before – seeing 1 engineer borderline mandatory on a team, maybe even 2.

Every meta build in this game has been “too much” for a while now, and just about all of it is being toned down – except engineers, for some reason. I’m not even talking strict bomb/nade, pretty much anything condi or even anything exploiting the insane CC has potential to be very very strong judging off the ready up stream. I highly suggest you tone down engineers a little bit, because nobody wants a repeat of the HGH era.

Here are a few alternatives to be constructive (I am constructive.):

• Increase healing turret’s cast time to 3/4 seconds, or 1 second, depending on testing.

• Make the second skill of healing turret (cleansing burst) require you to “use” the healing turret for 1/4 second, locking you in place in order to complete the combo

• Make incendiary powder proc every 10 seconds upon applying confusion to the target – clever use of static shot and pry bar in order to proc incendiary as much as possible, fairly counterable too

• Make grenades have a 1/4 second delay before detonation if used at less than 300 range. Highlight the type of grenade thrown on the ground before detonation through visuals – frost grenades leave snow, etc.

• Reduce the 5 second “lingering” effect of backpack regenerator to something more like 2 seconds to encourage kit juggling (it’s basically 5/8ths of a healing signet on top of regular heals with regeneration)

• Preform this change: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Dhuumfire-and-Incendiary-Powder/first to incendiary powder to make it more active.

If you do all that I also ask that you buff our horrible builds, in particular turrets and anything involving gadgets.

i play condi engi, d/p thief, phanta mesmer, condi necro and ele evenly. i dont think engi is op. in 1v1 phanta mesmer is imo stronger. thief is stronger single target (in general, though engy with aoe against stealth isnt thieve’s fav target). engi doesnt have 1shots, it will never be op 1v1 unless your foe autoattacks under 5stacks of confusion. it is true that condi engi is guards worst nightmare, that much is true.

Wow, a reasonable engineer. That’s a first. I’m impressed and fully support you OP.

In my opinion mesmers thiefs guardians and engeniers after nerfs are going to dominate pvp (their numbers are rising each day). Engenier as you said is OP in some builds. I believe ANet will nerf conditions even more in the future and they will rule for about 2 pvp patches.

these are terrible suggestions :/ a heal that locks you in place ? destroying the heal and messing with IP is the solution…

engies have and will always be the most op class for pvp, they have more sustain than warriors(turret spam on cd + toolbelt skill with blast finisher is 100 more hps than heal sig), take less damage than wars(more armor because rabid ammy and high prot uptime), can go invis, have a longer invuln than warriors, have a stronger version of dhuumfire, and have so many spammable condi spells.

Zirith.6429:

engies have and will always be the most op class for pvp, they have more sustain than warriors(turret spam on cd + toolbelt skill with blast finisher is 100 more hps than heal sig), take less damage than wars(more armor because rabid ammy and high prot uptime), can go invis, have a longer invuln than warriors, have a stronger version of dhuumfire, and have so many spammable condi spells.

Yes at the cost of piano key gameplay and higher risk of developing RSI. So yes. They have every right to be.

Re: changes:
any heal that roots you in place is pretty bad for a game that emphasises mobility as a core component of combat.

In regards to Incendiary Powder; I’d have it apply to explosions only and in addition make pistol 1 autoattack classified as an explosion, hell it’d leave people less pigeon-holed into taking just rifle for any build with a power investment, albeit with a heightened internal CD.
OR just remove Incendiary Powder altogether and make god kitten Flamethrower actually apply some burning with even mentioning. (But I digress that’s a different issue altogether).

Zirith.6429:

engies have and will always be the most op class for pvp, they have more sustain than warriors(turret spam on cd + toolbelt skill with blast finisher is 100 more hps than heal sig), take less damage than wars(more armor because rabid ammy and high prot uptime), can go invis, have a longer invuln than warriors, have a stronger version of dhuumfire, and have so many spammable condi spells.

And the ability to remove up to three conditions every 20 seconds total and even have up to one stunbreak! On only a 40+ second cooldown! Hehe we should duel again on our main builds, gs/lb double stance is very hard for engineer builds to deal with and I need practice.

To the OP: yes, there is that potential. Engineers have been strong for a while. However, meta engineer builds are not even close to the best duelists, it’s just that they also have good teamfight/node control at the same time, contrary to other duelists. Teams may start bringing a dedicated sidepoint duelist to counter good all-around sidepoint builds like engineer. Or more likely, the nerfs will not change that much and comps will remain the same, and engineers will remain in essentially the same position as they are now.

Granades are strong, that’s true, but they leave enough room for counterplay.
They are very weak to retailation and unlike wells they don’t get past the shield of absorption that guardians rise when ressing (once every 60s).
They are also difficult to make use of in 1v1 situations.

I would only change the burning on crit trait to make confusion apply burning, imo this would make it more counterable and less rng based.

google.3709

these are terrible suggestions :/

Thank you. However, apparently backpack regenerator is bugged (I do not use it) and that should be fixed. Condi-spam in general is also a known problem.

The main things stopping engineers from just running riot in teamfights crapping condis out on everyone is a warrior to keep them CC’d during duration of zerker stance, and a necro to return those condis as well as melt an engineer down quickly. Otherwise you’ve kind of got thieves who just need a little bit of attention from an engineer to handle, rangers if the engineer gets caught out of position and maybe a DPS guardian if he doesn’t die from 2138471234 conditions first. Engineers are pretty kitten good.

In a 1v1 I’d have to say the only things that can beat me are potentially a condi warrior (relies on what goes on with Impale and Pin Down – do they get dodged, reflected, do I take it etc), a hambow warrior (depending on whether I fight on point or not or if I play well), a necro with some level of death shroud before joining the fight (consume conditions + too many condition returns to handle + too many conditions in general). Spirit ranger is cake, sometimes even if they have the res spirit up. Thieves and mesmers have to be VERY good to beat engineers in a 1v1 – that is, I have to kitten up, and the thief has to be good enough to realise that I’ve kittened up and capitalise on it. Other than that I can just kitten out a few condis onto them and they’ll just melt.

…

Every meta build in this game has been “too much” for a while now, and just about all of it is being toned down – except engineers, for some reason. I’m not even talking strict bomb/nade, pretty much anything condi or even anything exploiting the insane CC has potential to be very very strong judging off the ready up stream. I highly suggest you tone down engineers a little bit, because nobody wants a repeat of the HGH era.

This here is all build-specific opinion that comes off as showboating, is filled with hyperbole, and fails to provide any constructive specifics or definitive proof. While I do not know how skilled you are at engineer (nor do I care), your argument here would actually be strengthened if you were terrible and still “melting” people. Furthermore, all your suggested “nerfs” affect nearly all builds, despite you citing certain offenders in particular and wanting to buff certain horrible builds.

Jzaku.9765

Wow, a reasonable engineer. That’s a first. I’m impressed and fully support you OP.

Thank you for this perfect example. Anytime someone (experience and skill not even known) calls for a self-nerf they are automatically assumed to be so sagacious and honest. Sometimes this is true. In this case it is not. It only serves to draw those who have long been searching for justification that X class is overpowered and discredits both people in the process.

bethekey.8314:

~snip~

Thank you for this perfect example. Anytime someone (experience and skill not even known) calls for a self-nerf they are automatically assumed to be so sagacious and honest. Sometimes this is true. In this case it is not. It only serves to draw those who have long been searching for justification for their claims that X class is overpowered and discredits both people in the process.

idk what I am now (decay) but I hover around here for weeks when I actively play and try. What counts as “proof”? Have you played the game recently, strong engineer play is by far the biggest condition bomb in the game, in an aoe, while being extremely tanky and hard to take down. That’s okay – those are the strengths of the class – but I’m worried that with everyone else being nerfed and engineer being nerfed in places that don’t matter at all (net turret?) engineers might be too strong and seen everywhere. That’s not showboating and trying to get justification and whatever else you’re saying, that’s “I don’t want kittening everyone playing engineer because it’s the hottest brand new fotm bandwagon carried-by-class option.”

edit: Whoops, that image shows way too much information, cropped. Frankly doesn’t say much anyway because solo queue is dead because of a certain map that will remain unmentioned as it will get my post merged.

I’m not sure about removing the crit requirement for Incendiary Powder and making it proc with confusion instead is going to balance anything since it will just move the “OPness” from one type of build (crit builds) to kit heavy builds. I run 4 kits and 3 of them have confusion so it’s not a problem for me. I just won’t need precision now. Of course I’m still limited between two amulets for the highest condition damage but I would at least have a choice between those two if I wanted IP instead of just Rabid. Engineers would still run “dominate”, not that I really think that engineers would dominate in the way other classes have dominated.

isolatedchimp.2510:

I’m not sure about removing the crit requirement for Incendiary Powder and making it proc with confusion instead is going to balance anything since it will just move the “OPness” from one type of build (crit builds) to kit heavy builds. I run 4 kits and 3 of them have confusion so it’s not a problem for me. I just won’t need precision now. Of course I’m still limited between two amulets for the highest condition damage but I would at least have a choice between those two if I wanted IP instead of just Rabid. Engineers would still run “dominate”, not that I really think that engineers would dominate in the way other classes have dominated.

These are just examples because anet enjoy constructive criticism, nothing there should be taken as exact word of balance because I can’t forsee what effect they would have on the game. The general point of this thread is just that engineers deserve a slight nerf to their strengths (heal turret) with the ready up patch, considering every other class is also getting a slight nerf. In return I expect slight buffs to the crappy part of engineers.

Writetyper.1985

idk what I am now (decay) but I hover around here for weeks when I actively play and try.

bethekey.8314

While I do not know how skilled you are at engineer (nor do I care), your argument here would actually be strengthened if you were terrible and still “melting” people.

If you posted your ranking because of my last paragraph, the bit about lacking knowledge about the original poster’s skill and experience level was pointing to people like Jzaku.9765 blindly agreeing with someone—not you in particular. It also comes off as a late attempt for validation that only serves to discredit you further, as I said, because now skill is relevant in your original claims of beating so many classes.

Writetyper1985

What counts as “proof”?

Large amounts of unbiased data that confirm your conclusions. For this game, the agreement of many well-experienced and top PvPers would suffice.

Writetyper.1985

Have you played the game recently, strong engineer play is by far the biggest condition bomb in the game, in an aoe, while being extremely tanky and hard to take down.

I have, yes. I would say necros can bomb and spread conditions better than engineers. When spec’d correctly, I would agree that engineers can be more survivable though while still maintaining great condition pressure. I believe this is in line with the distinction developers said they wanted to foster between the two classes.

Writetyper.1985

That’s okay – those are the strengths of the class – but I’m worried that with everyone else being nerfed and engineer being nerfed in places that don’t matter at all (net turret?) engineers might be too strong and seen everywhere. That’s not showboating and trying to get justification and whatever else you’re saying

I know that it is sometimes difficult to trust the developers with their history. You can not predict everything that will be in the patch, nor can you predict what the meta will be when it comes. I did not say your concern was showboating; your showboating was showboating (it really was quite apparent).

isolatedchimp.2510:

I just won’t need precision now.

Pretty much this.

It’s not just engies, but conditions in general. If something is holding condition on check, that thing are warriors. Conditions and condibunkers need to go along with every cheese plaguing this game (tough I think it’s the worst offender)

Rofl … these suggestions in the current meta are hillarious. There are only 2 maybe 3 thing that currently should be nerfed
1) Automated response
2) Incediary power
3) Elite

Regards 2) Your suggestion is not really smart. This will contribute kit builds (which are already in a good place) while others will completly fall behind. This will shrink build diversity to a minimum.

Regards Healing turret) This is 1 of the worst suggestions I’ve ever heard. This might kill all engi builds. One have to consider that healing on engi is devided into 3 steps:
1) Placing turret
2) Overload
3) Pick up turret
Or is NA so smart and let the turret always explode? All together it takes already about 3/4 sec. Increasing just the first part would make this heal almost useless. In the current meta (stuns all over the place) this would be so bad. The complete cast time would be higher than the one of signet of resolve.
Remember Necros can already 1shot you with conditions. Sometimes you are luck and survive due to the short cd and cast time of your heal – This wouldnt be become even more difficult.

It is right that you should be critical with your own class and dont think that you rule every player because you are so skilled. However, in the current meta there is only 1 build which is completly over the top – The bunker engi, and that is due to automated response and maybe turret knockbacks.

PvP needs to be balanced around one point. I prefer it to be ranked team fights.

Engi is one option for a team in a niche role and is easily replaceable with another class.

Why it would need a nerf? AR? AR is good in theory but in practice yor build will be terrible unless you are bunkering. There is little room for a bunker without stability.

Watching the ESL Cup. Very good teams are not playing with engi at the moment. So I do not agree with OP. Lets wait for the nerfs. Normally the Engineer is nerfed every patch. So wait and see the next meta

Please don’t kill Healing Turret

Engineers are pretty awesome if the enemy doesn’t know how to deal with them. At high end competition, this is no issue.

However, rank 300+ on leaderboard where there is less coordination and knowledge about Engineer’s roles/builds means that condi spam or decapper is seemingly OP.

From personal experience, all one needs is to bring a burst Thief/Ele/Necro to pressure an Engineer and we’re forced to retreat or die.

TLDR: Engineers rock at medium-upper skill levels but fall short at top tier/coordinated play. Heavy nerfs proposed by OP unwarranted.

Lupanic.6502:

Watching the ESL Cup. Very good teams are not playing with engi at the moment. So I do not agree with OP. Lets wait for the nerfs. Normally the Engineer is nerfed every patch. So wait and see the next meta

ESL doesn’t prove anything. People play with each other on classes they are good at and not necessary what is meta.

If i had a friend that was amazing on class X i would have him play class X even though Y is better.

As for topic: surprised to see someone to call for nerfs for own class. I personally don’t enjoy engi class so i don’t really play it so i can’t say for sure if those changes are good or not but at least IP does need to be changed.

Interesting take on IP. Other suggestions are to have it proc an indicator underneath the engie and the next attack applies the incendiary powder. This way a person fighting the engie can see the powder proc and have a chance to avoid it.

Necros do not need dhuumfire to take a dump on engineers. They have two powerful condi transfers and a great heal vs condi classes. They will still take a dump on engis when dhuumfire becomes dodgeable.

The changes to pin down, however, will definitely even the match vs warriors.

Zirith.6429:

engies have and will always be the most op class for pvp, they have more sustain than warriors(turret spam on cd + toolbelt skill with blast finisher is 100 more hps than heal sig), take less damage than wars(more armor because rabid ammy and high prot uptime), can go invis, have a longer invuln than warriors, have a stronger version of dhuumfire, and have so many spammable condi spells.

I have to say that Engineers have always been the most OP profession for PvP until the massive power creep of June-July 2013. More Engineers are mastering the profession and realizing all there is to offer.

However, the tables really turned during the June-July 2013 legendary power creep. Rangers, Warriors, and Necros were pretty much overhauled.

Don’t forget that the meta Engineer builds can remove 6-8 conditions in a minute, whereas a warrior can remove about 30-40 when utilizing Lyssa and or Signet of Stamina under condi-burst conditions, and nullify all incoming conditions for 8 seconds.

Engies are much more counterable than Warriors are, right now. There’s not really much a soldier’s amulet hambow Warrior has to worry about.

Engies have the worst condition removal in the game – perhaps on par with Mesmers. Engineers still rely on kite-or-die strategies. There are definitely things you can do to shut down an Engineer.

Engineer is already over the top, but it won’t be noticed because there isnt a competitive scene trying out comps.

However you do see in soloq far point engineers winning tons of games by themselves.

bethekey.8314:

Jzaku.9765

Wow, a reasonable engineer. That’s a first. I’m impressed and fully support you OP.

Thank you for this perfect example. Anytime someone (experience and skill not even known) calls for a self-nerf they are automatically assumed to be so sagacious and honest. Sometimes this is true. In this case it is not. It only serves to draw those who have long been searching for justification that X class is overpowered and discredits both people in the process.

Wow, that’s some presumptuous condescension right there. The reason I support op is not because I’m under some false delusion that “wanting to nerf yourself makes you a sage”, it is because op touches on many of the things wrong with this game in his so called “nerfs”. Attaching incendiary powder to clearly telegraphed existing moves to make it avoidable instead of being the undodgeable random proc it is now, making (only a part of) healing turret risky and interruptable like most other heals in the game, giving grenades a telegraph and delay in melee range because the entire grenade skill shot argument absolutely fails when you can unload everything instantly when you are defending a point on your opponent.

These are not “nerfs” and nowhere in my post I stated that I think they are good changes because they are nerfs to a class I find op. I find that these are good FIXES to the way engineer works currently and that the large majority of engineers, like every other class, is vehemently opposed to changes like these because they 1-dimensionally only see these changes as straight nerfs.

I don’t think engi’s are overpowered, I think the’re in a great place atm.
Despite their advantages engi’s are week to conditions and CC and that’s what balances them.

Chaith.8256:

Zirith.6429:

engies have and will always be the most op class for pvp, they have more sustain than warriors(turret spam on cd + toolbelt skill with blast finisher is 100 more hps than heal sig), take less damage than wars(more armor because rabid ammy and high prot uptime), can go invis, have a longer invuln than warriors, have a stronger version of dhuumfire, and have so many spammable condi spells.

I have to say that Engineers have always been the most OP profession for PvP until the massive power creep of June-July 2013. More Engineers are mastering the profession and realizing all there is to offer.

However, the tables really turned during the June-July 2013 legendary power creep. Rangers, Warriors, and Necros were pretty much overhauled.

Don’t forget that the meta Engineer builds can remove 6-8 conditions in a minute, whereas a warrior can remove about 30-40 when utilizing Lyssa and or Signet of Stamina under condi-burst conditions, and nullify all incoming conditions for 8 seconds.

Engies are much more counterable than Warriors are, right now. There’s not really much a soldier’s amulet hambow Warrior has to worry about.

Engies have the worst condition removal in the game – perhaps on par with Mesmers. Engineers still rely on kite-or-die strategies. There are definitely things you can do to shut down an Engineer.

Truth here.

Engineers are a slightly better counterpart of elementalist. Like ele, when mastered, they are a threat and can possibly be considered OP. But on average hands, they differ in a sense that eles will suck while engies still have something to offer for the team.

There’s the dumbed down grenade and bomb poo build which anyone can use and still be effective. And then there’s the <insert random kit and/or gadget> high skill ceiling Engineer that’s really really good, you can’t really beat them if you’re average because majority of players have any clue on how half of the engineer’s skills function. Plus they have the best 1v1 elite in game.

Random ridiculous burning proc aside, engies are fine. That’s just my 2 cents.

Gallrvaghn.4921:

Engineers are a slightly better counterpart of elementalist. Like ele, when mastered, they are a threat and can possibly be considered OP. But on average hands, they differ in a sense that eles will suck while engies still have something to offer for the team.

There’s the dumbed down grenade and bomb poo build which anyone can use and still be effective. And then there’s the <insert random kit and/or gadget> high skill ceiling Engineer that’s really really good, you can’t really beat them if you’re average because majority of players have any clue on how half of the engineer’s skills function. Plus they have the best 1v1 elite in game.

Random ridiculous burning proc aside, engies are fine. That’s just my 2 cents.

I honestly don’t think any game should be balanced around a low skill level – it should always be assumed that all combatants are at the peak of their game. There are way, way too many variables all the way down to make the game balanced for “average handed” engineers which when tampered with will effect the strength at the top. Dota is balanced 100% around the pro level and look where that game sits.

i see that the general consensus of the thread is that engineers are fine – I agree with you in their current state, but don’t come running to me when anet neglect to tweak em down a lil bit in coherency with the rest of the classes and engineers become what eles were back in the day. Class balance is a universal thing – it’s all classes in coherency with each other, not just your own class.

The secret is that engis are currently the easiest class to play in the game. It’s too easy to hold a point right now.

style.6173:

The secret is that engis are currently the easiest class to play in the game. It’s too easy to hold a point right now.

I think you mean to say it’s easy to play a bunker engi. Not every engi is bunker, you know.

Jzaku.9765

Wow, that’s some presumptuous condescension right there. The reason I support op is not because I’m under some false delusion that “wanting to nerf yourself makes you a sage”, it is because op touches on many of the things wrong with this game in his so called “nerfs”. Attaching incendiary powder to clearly telegraphed existing moves to make it avoidable instead of being the undodgeable random proc it is now, making (only a part of) healing turret risky and interruptable like most other heals in the game, giving grenades a telegraph and delay in melee range because the entire grenade skill shot argument absolutely fails when you can unload everything instantly when you are defending a point on your opponent.

These are not “nerfs” and nowhere in my post I stated that I think they are good changes because they are nerfs to a class I find op. I find that these are good FIXES to the way engineer works currently and that the large majority of engineers, like every other class, is vehemently opposed to changes like these because they 1-dimensionally only see these changes as straight nerfs.

For the sake of time and tempers, I will leave it at this: If you believe that these nerfs (you do not fix something that is not broken) are good, you are very much out of your depth here.

“Warrior nerf” is misleading. 8% healing reduction (20hp/s) is hardly a nerf. Slightly longer cast time for Pin Down? Overdue. Soliders Hambow warrior will still give an engineer a hard time.

Also, Soloqueue rank is not an accurate representation of skill.

bethekey.8314:

For the sake of time and tempers, I will leave it at this: If you believe that these nerfs (you do not fix something that is not broken) are good, you are very much out of your depth here.

I’m glad we could come to an understanding here. I too feel exactly like you do, “you’re bad and you’re wrong”. If you feel like adding telegraphs to every class is an earthshaking nerf then I too have nothing to say to you.

December.3946:

Also, Soloqueue rank is not an accurate representation of skill.

The only true representation of skill is how many times in one playing session you can listen to the same space jam theme remix in a row. I’m sitting at 75 for http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCtEjnfSGa4, how about you casual?

Chaith.8256:

Zirith.6429:

engies have and will always be the most op class for pvp, they have more sustain than warriors(turret spam on cd + toolbelt skill with blast finisher is 100 more hps than heal sig), take less damage than wars(more armor because rabid ammy and high prot uptime), can go invis, have a longer invuln than warriors, have a stronger version of dhuumfire, and have so many spammable condi spells.

I have to say that Engineers have always been the most OP profession for PvP until the massive power creep of June-July 2013. More Engineers are mastering the profession and realizing all there is to offer.

However, the tables really turned during the June-July 2013 legendary power creep. Rangers, Warriors, and Necros were pretty much overhauled.

Don’t forget that the meta Engineer builds can remove 6-8 conditions in a minute, whereas a warrior can remove about 30-40 when utilizing Lyssa and or Signet of Stamina under condi-burst conditions, and nullify all incoming conditions for 8 seconds.

Engies are much more counterable than Warriors are, right now. There’s not really much a soldier’s amulet hambow Warrior has to worry about.

Engies have the worst condition removal in the game – perhaps on par with Mesmers. Engineers still rely on kite-or-die strategies. There are definitely things you can do to shut down an Engineer.

Agree with you

@ Chaith
I agree with what you said about engineers and their weak spots.
Not much the case for warriors for example.