Guild Wars 2

when skills are balanced there are now only 2 considerations.

if a skill is too powerful:

• reduce its power
  or
• add more recharge

often, balance changes in gw1 involved adding or removing energy to the cost. if the skill was simply too powerful, then it would get a small recharge adjustment, or perhaps a skill feature change.

energy acts like a global skill recharge, and helps give pacing to a fight.

a few skills that can’t exist without energy from gw1:
searing flames
mind blast
mind burn
energy surge
most monk skills
etc

these skills are strong, but balanced along a secondary axis (energy cost). instead, now we have problem in gw2 where team deathmatch can’t work well because everyone just uses their elites (all long-recharge skills) and the fight is over in 30 seconds.

i’m strongly considering just going back to gw1. there are so many aspects of gw2 that cater more to casuals than to pvpers, and it’s baked into the game at the lowest levels. gw1 pvp > gw2 pvp. gw2 pve > gw1 pve.

While I see what you’re getting at, I find that your argument does not address real balancing issues because-

1. Some skills in GW1 only had their functions because there was an energy system, e.g. mindblast.

2. Some skills in GW2 work similarly to GW1 skills but are balanced around recharge rather successfully. Nobody denies that a hard hit from Flame Grab is strong and a good finishing blow from an ele specced to deal damage, but its recharge makes it hard to call OP.

re: your points
1) yes. energy is a secondary resource that skills can alter. it adds depth to play.
2) the problem i’m addressing is one of pacing and matchups. gw2 skills are balanced with long cool downs, elites in particular. in order to justify calling a skill “elite”, it must be powerful. if it is powerful, it must be balanced. the only way to balance a powerful skill is to make its recharge high. if this were gw1, we could also balance the skill with higher energy costs, but lower cool downs (e.g. searing flames).

milo.6942:

re: your points
1) yes. energy is a secondary resource that skills can alter. it adds depth to play.
2) the problem i’m addressing is one of pacing and matchups. gw2 skills are balanced with long cool downs, elites in particular. in order to justify calling a skill “elite”, it must be powerful. if it is powerful, it must be balanced. the only way to balance a powerful skill is to make its recharge high. if this were gw1, we could also balance the skill with higher energy costs, but lower cool downs (e.g. searing flames).

This is not true.
Skills also based on animation (cast) times. You see this with Meteor Storm in gw1 and GW2, and mantras.
Some elites are actually fairly weak but are strengthened by the protection of a boon (Dagger storm) and being strippable is part of their weakness.
If I strip dagger storm than interrupt a thief, his elite is finished.
So elites also balanced by strategies. For instance I can strip stability off tornado and interrupt.

Skills (in gw1) were sometimes also balanced with punitive qualities (blood cost), and some gw2 skills carry this attribute.
Then there is balancing based on range.
There are plenty of ways to do things without energy.

Thieves guild and Summon Elemental elites for instance can be killed prematurely ending their significance.

I find it fun to manage “resources” but I think GW2 was trying to get away from everything that felt artificial like that. I agree that having a resource cost makes things much easier to balance and also adds risk/reward to fights. It would be kind of nice if blowing your offensive cooldowns left you vulnerable, instead of still having all your defensive cooldowns available.

This is not a topic about the power of skills and their costs.

This is a topic about what factors are taken into account when using your skills effectively. The removal of energy had to happen in gw2 because, unlike gw1, the devs are making your skill bars. This means that the devs have to make it so that the bars have good energy management and flow fine on their own. Once the element of buildmaking is taken away from the players, there’s no sense in having players be punished because the devs can’t make bars as good as players can.

Gw2 has very little to consider when you want to use your skills. If it’s off recharge, you will probably get very good effectiveness if you just press it and it hits an enemy. Of course, you can pretend that lining up a spike or some kind of combo is effective skill use – but that argument falls flat if you can just macro the combo onto one button. Maybe you want to use the skills at particular times? Yeah, you will get more effectiveness if you use it smart, but not so much more that the difference between an idiot rabbit and a pro shark is obvious after one skill rotation.

any way you cut it, it’s one less option for balancing, and it has a direct impact on making encounters simpler: use most powerful skills available.

certainly, there is room for skillful play. but it is less than available when energy is involved.

@mbh that is a good post

Energy denial was a core component of Mesmer game play in GW1 as well that I miss. Mesmers in this game just feel nothing like they were in GW1. I don’t believe you need a universal energy/mana resource system for balance for depth reasons, it’s just the old Mesmer playstyle I miss. I still think some of that old Mesmer-y playstyle can exist in GW2 if they made the Mesmer interrupt traits worth a kitten

I agree with you but iv come to face it, this isnt gw1 and will never be as strong as the pvp was there, we gotta accept that some time.

milo.6942:

re: your points
1) yes. energy is a secondary resource that skills can alter. it adds depth to play.
2) the problem i’m addressing is one of pacing and matchups. gw2 skills are balanced with long cool downs, elites in particular. in order to justify calling a skill “elite”, it must be powerful. if it is powerful, it must be balanced. the only way to balance a powerful skill is to make its recharge high. if this were gw1, we could also balance the skill with higher energy costs, but lower cool downs (e.g. searing flames).

My point was that the skill was created around energy in this instance. Had the energy system not existed, the skill would have had a totally different function/balancing mechanism. We can use telegraphing as an example. Telegraphing was not as visual in GW1, but it’s extremely present (in most cases) in GW2. A lack of energy does not inherently mean a lack of depth. I am not saying an energy system is bad, or that it would ruin GW2, rather that at this point it is unnecessary; much of the balance issue could be fixed without implementing energy as a resource.

You can look to GW1’s meteor shower as an excellent example of a skill being balanced almost solely around cast time/recharge and not energy cost, in a system where energy exists. 25 energy is rather insigificant when the cast time/recharge were 5 sec/60 sec respectively. The skill was also very obviously telegraphed compared to other skills. The exhaustion effect was added additionally to punish players for cancel casting, making the 25 energy cost again, rather pointless; the skill wouldn’t have been much more trouble had its cost been reduced to 15, or even 10 energy; you would have simply seen a little more use from non-ele primaries.

Main design speedbump: pvp is being developed in a way that pvers won’t be scared of new and exciting things when they fight for glory in the mist wars.

The conventional perception of pvp right now is that it needs a lot of changes which will make pvers have to read skills all over again when they get to the mists. Pvers not having all their rings / earrings / hair braids already caused mild freakouts, and that is something which anet wants to avoid – because the fundamental tenet of pvp design here is that it should have no learning curve (as far as skills / equipment goes) for pvers to transition.

So the next time you have a totally valid complaint / suggestion / whatever, consider the following:
Would a pver have to learn something new in order to play?

If the answer is yes, then assume that anet is trying every last possible option which involves the answer being “no”.

mbh.8301:

Main design speedbump: pvp is being developed in a way that pvers won’t be scared of new and exciting things when they fight for glory in the mist wars.

The conventional perception of pvp right now is that it needs a lot of changes which will make pvers have to read skills all over again when they get to the mists. Pvers not having all their rings / earrings / hair braids already caused mild freakouts, and that is something which anet wants to avoid – because the fundamental tenet of pvp design here is that it should have no learning curve (as far as skills / equipment goes) for pvers to transition.

So the next time you have a totally valid complaint / suggestion / whatever, consider the following:
Would a pver have to learn something new in order to play?

If the answer is yes, then assume that anet is trying every last possible option which involves the answer being “no”.

What a bunch of elitist hogwash. Some of you still don’t seem to understand why this game has such a tiny pvp base. Its not because it caters too much to casuals that’s for sure.

Kwll.1468:

What a bunch of elitist hogwash. Some of you still don’t seem to understand why this game has such a tiny pvp base. Its not because it caters too much to casuals that’s for sure.

Alright, let’s go over some of the talk that happens:

“maybe we should make pvp have different skills, since there are some problems stemming from how powerful they are”

“yeah…we’re considering that, but we aren’t too keen on doing it because pvers would have to read their skills for a second time.”

Every time some kind of overhaul of skills or traits is suggested anet talks about how those changes would impact the experience of every other player in the game in pve and wvw and so we’re left with not so many changes.

Next time you want to bring up elitist hogwash, maybe you should reconsider exactly what’s going on around you.

There are other ways to balance skills. Quickness skills, for example, have detriments in addition to lengthy cooldowns.

Atlanis.6597:

There are other ways to balance skills. Quickness skills, for example, have detriments in addition to lengthy cooldowns.

As do necromancer ccorruption skills….unless you WANT conditions on you so you can heal for more or transfer them ofc.

milo.6942:

any way you cut it, it’s one less option for balancing, and it has a direct impact on making encounters simpler: use most powerful skills available.

this is somewhat true.

The removal of energy was obviously a PvE decision.

Cooldowns are a terrible way of balancing skills as it often promotes a very front-loaded playstyle. An energy mechanism could help mitigate hit and run shenanigans of professions like thieves and D/D eles, and force them to work together professions.

I also think there needs to be more emphasis on hitbox, animations and aftercasting in order to promote smarter skill usage. There should probably an option to turn off autoaiming/facing since it dumbs down a lot of the game’s execution depth..

mbh.8301:

Kwll.1468:

What a bunch of elitist hogwash. Some of you still don’t seem to understand why this game has such a tiny pvp base. Its not because it caters too much to casuals that’s for sure.

Alright, let’s go over some of the talk that happens:

“maybe we should make pvp have different skills, since there are some problems stemming from how powerful they are”

“yeah…we’re considering that, but we aren’t too keen on doing it because pvers would have to read their skills for a second time.”

Every time some kind of overhaul of skills or traits is suggested anet talks about how those changes would impact the experience of every other player in the game in pve and wvw and so we’re left with not so many changes.

Next time you want to bring up elitist hogwash, maybe you should reconsider exactly what’s going on around you.

In GW1, some skills were changed for PvP, in an effort to balance them, which was largely accepted and understood as necessary. Not only that, there were also unique PvE-only skills. All this in addition to the energy system. Keeping certain skills separate was just part of the game.
But I just ended up highlighting GW1’s superiority in terms of depth and build diversity again. No surprise there.

TwoBit.5903:

Cooldowns are a terrible way of balancing skills as it often promotes a very front-loaded playstyle. An energy mechanism could help mitigate hit and run shenanigans of professions like thieves and D/D eles, and force them to work together professions.

That’s a weak rebuttal. Thieves’ initiative system is very close to the GW1 energy system.

Resource management is, imho, core of good MMO.

It opens up so much possibilities, is easier to balance and prevents spamming.

energy too complex to understand, better to keep game simple like league of legends so it can go esportz!

Reikou.7068:

The removal of energy was obviously a PvE decision.

Maybe.

The energy system isn’t totally gone. It was transformed into Thief’s initative mechanic. Originally initiative was a guardian class mechanic but it was given to thief instead.

Exedore.6320:

Thieves’ initiative system is very close to the GW1 energy system.

What is worse, energy without cooldowns or cooldowns without energy?

GW1 system, league of legends, and many other games feature both, and that is a tried-and-true formula for a reason.

An energy+cooldown system has many advantages:

• (Energy) is an extra tool to balance skills;
• Prevent/ punish spam (a serious problem with GW2’s combat);
• Easier to set up an attractive pace to the combat system (going all in and then doing nothing vs slowly using your skills – pace (as a result from skill spamming) is another serious problem with GW2’s combat);
• And thus improve gameplay and UI clarity;
• And thus reward high risk/ high reward scenarios;
• Add a drawback to skills in a way that it’s easier to understand to players, and possibly easier to accept.
• Add new skills to manage resources (energy management);
• More disruption tactics (energy denial or stealing);

An energy system (+ cooldowns) makes the game both more COMPLEX and EASIER TO UNDERSTAND.

With this dual system, anet would have an easier time setting up the pace at which the game throws information to the player, unlike the current scenario, where players are bombarded with boons, conditions, pets, passive procs, etc. This because the game would be less about using all your skills on cooldown (yes, good players try to maximize the effects of each skill, but there’s still an incentive to use most of them on cooldown when the alternative is doing nothing), and more about using the skills at the right time. It would have been a completely different experience, for the better.

And how it contributes to adding depth to the game, no need to explain.

So by removing the energy system, anet’s attempt to make combat more seamless and streamlined backfired: it made it messier instead. An extra bar on the UI is worth 100 times the icon spam, skill spam, proc spam and effects spam this game currently has because of its “use as many skills as fast as possible” combat philosophy.

It’s pretty much a golden mechanic, imo.