Anet makes mechanics without counterplay.

Anet makes mechanics without counterplay.

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Posted by: Lyndis.2584

Lyndis.2584

I am not a professional game designer. But here’s my comment on making mechanics that have no counterplay in this game.

Un-counterable mechanics kill the fun for players trying to outplay the other player / zerg. There is literally nothing you can do while the other player wins – not because they’re good, but because the mechanic is broken and there is no way to surefire counterplay the matter.

One stunning example of this is stealth. No class in this entire game has built in stealth detection. The devs tried to input these clunky, unusable, and difficult to use traps that reveal stealth in WvW, but the truth of the matter is that no one uses them and they’re not realistic for usage in a pitched battle. (It also costs supply to build.)

Stealth is interesting, because only a few classes have stealth and even few of those make optimal and actual use of the mechanic. (Namely, mesmers and thieves.) Mesmers are not a problem – they have limited options for stealth and they have fairly short term stealth options. (Eg. Veil – 2 seconds, Decoy – 3 seconds. Mass Invisibility is something like 5 seconds, but it’s on a minute and a half cooldown.) Thieves on the other hand are famous for their 20+ second stealth combos in fights, their ability to disengage at will with exceedingly long stealth durations, as well as permastealth options if they trait for it.

Now, stealth wouldn’t be as bad if thieves were already not so slippery (but I’m not here to complain about thieves.) Let’s be honest – ANY class, with the stealth capabilities of a thief, would be just as annoying to deal with. Can you imagine a stealth warrior using killshot? Or sneak up behind you with a surprise quickness boosted 100 Blades? And then you being unable to do anything to retaliate because they have chain stealth options to disappear after they’ve hit you? People try to defend stealth by saying ‘if the stealthed person ran from you, you won!’. That’s not true at ALL. Did I spike him? Did I get a loot bag? No? Then I didn’t win. If no one dies in a skirmish, we call that a draw in reality. Time to move away from that fantasy world of coddling stealth.

IMO, torch skills should have been based around AoE burning and stealth reveal. Not only because torches are as ignored as they are, but because for every mechanic, there should be a counterplay to it. No, not ‘swing around and spam 1 button to maybe hit a stealthed opponent!’ counterplay argument people make. Actual, usable, stealth reveal. For example, a torch ability on a 20 second cooldown that reveals and burns all units around the user for 5 seconds with the revealed debuff. It’s not overpowered, and has good utility – and most importantly, provides an option to counterplay chain stealth without wrecking the mechanic. A 15 second window is more than enough to do what you need to do while still creating a window of vulnerability for the stealth mechanic.

Another example is retaliation. Retaliation is a flawed mechanic within itself for a huge reason – it discourages players from attacking other players. Now, I don’t know why other people may play WvW and PvP, but I play to attack and feel the thrill of killing other people. Confusion wasn’t even half as bad – this stuff could be avoided and cleansed, but retaliation is an entirely different issue.

In high tiers of WvW, entire zergs roll with retaliation on due to guardians who spam this boon to their allies. First off, for classes that use repetitive, multiple target abilities, this mechanic is immediately perceivable as flawed – a glass cannon ranger using barrage on a zerg can take over 10,000 damage to their selves through the duration of a barrage without ever having been touched once by an enemy. And most interestingly – there is no counterplay to this mechanic. No class has built in lifesteal or life back on hit. Instead, they’re punished to kill themselves by attacking other enemies. If an engineer or a ranger cannot attack someone in fear of killing themselves due to retaliation feedback, you have FAILED in designing this game to be balanced properly. You advertise that we can play with whatever build or setup as we wish, yet here we are. It’s painfully obvious the design team has never played something like a grenade or flamethrower engineer or a longbow ranger in WvW ever before in their lives or bothered to check out the repercussions of their retaliation mechanic.

I’d like to ask. If there any AoE boon ripping in this game? % based Lifesteal built into classes? Any way to counter the power % based retaliation damage in this game that has taken over as a staple of WvW?

No, there isn’t.

Get a new game design team, Anet. I’m not a game designer, but even I can see the flaws in these mechanics that are causing a lot of grief to players.

.:: FaTe ~ [SoS] ::.

(edited by Lyndis.2584)

Anet makes mechanics without counterplay.

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Posted by: GuardianOMS.8067

GuardianOMS.8067

I am not a professional game designer.

I’m not a game designer….

Sgt Killjoy – “Pedantic” “babe” and “bff” of Saiyr
The devs don’t care about WvW so I’m gonna kill players in PvE!

Anet makes mechanics without counterplay.

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Posted by: Dual.8953

Dual.8953

Stealth is touchy. If they make a stealth counter they run the risk of invalidating thief as a class, and thieves have it almost as bad as Rangers in terms of balance across the game modes. It’d be like if they made it so rangers shared health pools with their pets in SPvP. If they try to buff them out of stealth to compensate, they run the risk of losing the class’ uniqueness. (Also stealth traps are for stealthed zergs, not duels)

As for Retal. It was supposed to be used reactively but now it’s more an attrition effect. Maybe if they made it stack intensity instead of duration and rebalanced the damage scaling, it’d be closer to its vision.

Oh and boon strips and steals are on Necros, Mesmers and Thieves, Cannon’s tier 1 upgrade, and Sigil of Nullication.

Registered Altaholic
Part-time Kittenposter

Anet makes mechanics without counterplay.

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Posted by: ArcturusWolf.1205

ArcturusWolf.1205

Burn a thief, break his stealth.

But no, seriously. I’d rather have stealth be changed so that they can’t stealth again for 3-4 seconds after the end of the previous one. Right now, I’m seeing thieves that literally just pop stealth again and again – because they never break out of stealth, the Revealed debuff never comes into play – and hence they become permastealth. It’d be much better if stealth could not be reapplied before the previous one ended. Or at least halve duration if it was reapplied before the previous one ends.

Sylverinia | [TS] TimeShift | Eredon Terrace

Anet makes mechanics without counterplay.

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Posted by: Aegael.6938

Aegael.6938

You missed dodge and invuln spamming. There’s pretty limited counterplay to someone who stacks dodges, and there’s typically nothing you can do at all to someone who goes invuln, other than “hope you applied conditions before he went invuln.”

For the argument that “the class needs the broken mechanic to survive!”, that’s just incredibly stupid. Buff the class in other ways in compensation for removing a completely broken mechanic. There, you have a fixed class that doesn’t revolve around immensely frustrating mechanics to play against.

You know, though, for a long time, stability was up there with stealth in terms of “no counterplay,” and only a year after release are we really seeing boon strip being added to usable skills and traits. And I’d say what we have now still isn’t enough.

So I wouldn’t get my hopes up.

/necro a good thread

Anet makes mechanics without counterplay.

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Posted by: Machiavel.6042

Machiavel.6042

Stealth is touchy. If they make a stealth counter they run the risk of invalidating thief as a class, and thieves have it almost as bad as Rangers in terms of balance across the game modes. It’d be like if they made it so rangers shared health pools with their pets in SPvP. If they try to buff them out of stealth to compensate, they run the risk of losing the class’ uniqueness. (Also stealth traps are for stealthed zergs, not duels)

As for Retal. It was supposed to be used reactively but now it’s more an attrition effect. Maybe if they made it stack intensity instead of duration and rebalanced the damage scaling, it’d be closer to its vision.

Oh and boon strips and steals are on Necros, Mesmers and Thieves, Cannon’s tier 1 upgrade, and Sigil of Nullication.

As far as I know, thief doesn’t lose 40% of his DPS because of his class mechanic…

-I don’t suffer from insanity; I enjoy every minute of it- Edgar Allan Poe

Anet makes mechanics without counterplay.

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

Stealth is touchy. If they make a stealth counter they run the risk of invalidating thief as a class, and thieves have it almost as bad as Rangers in terms of balance across the game modes. It’d be like if they made it so rangers shared health pools with their pets in SPvP. If they try to buff them out of stealth to compensate, they run the risk of losing the class’ uniqueness. (Also stealth traps are for stealthed zergs, not duels)

As for Retal. It was supposed to be used reactively but now it’s more an attrition effect. Maybe if they made it stack intensity instead of duration and rebalanced the damage scaling, it’d be closer to its vision.

Oh and boon strips and steals are on Necros, Mesmers and Thieves, Cannon’s tier 1 upgrade, and Sigil of Nullication.

As far as I know, thief doesn’t lose 40% of his DPS because of his class mechanic…

You are right. Thieves are useless in stealth until stealth wears off or we attack.

Anet makes mechanics without counterplay.

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Posted by: Stooperdale.3560

Stooperdale.3560

The OP made a thread entitled “Anet makes mechanics without counterplay”. Instead we see posts from players who does not know the counterplays that exists in the game. Go to the thief forum where other players have started polite threads asking how to play against a stealth thief. The thieves themselves have listed some of the simple counterplays commonly used against them.

Anet makes mechanics without counterplay.

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Posted by: Chickenshoes.6250

Chickenshoes.6250

I am not a professional game designer.

I’m not a game designer….

So now that the game designers are putting in a counter-play ability for the rangers, it’s totally different, right?

Anet makes mechanics without counterplay.

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Posted by: Zoid.2568

Zoid.2568

Mechanics or skills that one shot you and are instant are the worst. How do you counter? you don’t unless you’re lucky or have block/blind up at all times.

Anet makes mechanics without counterplay.

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

There is literally nothing you can do while the other player wins

One stunning example of this is stealth.

Te ability to run away from a fight doesn’t equate to them winning that fight.

Anet makes mechanics without counterplay.

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Posted by: Zoid.2568

Zoid.2568

I like how ranger will get skills to reveal stealthed enemies, that’s a great counter. When thieves can be stealthed almost 24/7 they are almost 100% sure to always get away and survive to come back and kitten your life up. This new update will change that ridicilousness.

Anet makes mechanics without counterplay.

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

100% uptime build on stealth thieves are useless. their only purpose is to survive. Quit chasing them and the build will disappear. because their only purpose is to trade one usless build on their team (theirs) for multiple useless builds on the other team (anyone who wastes time on them). When you don’t chase them, they are only a liability for their own team.

Anet makes mechanics without counterplay.

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Posted by: Zoid.2568

Zoid.2568

100% uptime build on stealth thieves are useless. their only purpose is to survive. Quit chasing them and the build will disappear. because their only purpose is to trade one usless build on their team (theirs) for multiple useless builds on the other team (anyone who wastes time on them). When you don’t chase them, they are only a liability for their own team.

Still, there were no way to counter a stealth thief before, unless you could stunlock him which rarely happens. It was either be killed or run away. Running away shouldn’t be a counter, running away should be an option to a sitatuation in a fight, just like dodging enemy attacks.

Anet makes mechanics without counterplay.

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

the counter is to fight back with the various ways thjat the thief forums list and make them run away. Then you heal up and continue about your business. anytime they come to bother you, make them run away again while wasting as little time as possible on them. if they come back with full health and you are still sitting at half health, it’s because you decided that you didn’t want any health.

Anet makes mechanics without counterplay.

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Posted by: Zoid.2568

Zoid.2568

Running away is still not a counter or a counter against stealth thieves. This new addition which reveal stealth is, it will be in next update so not really worth discussing how i should fight a stealth thief without it. In next update Rangers will be the best counters against stealth thieves. People will appreciate Rangers more in wvwvw now.

Anet makes mechanics without counterplay.

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

Running away is still not a counter

agreed. There is no reason to run away from them. Just don’t chase them when they run, right now.

Anet makes mechanics without counterplay.

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Posted by: Zoid.2568

Zoid.2568

Running away is still not a counter

agreed. There is no reason to run away from them. Just don’t chase them when they run, right now.

True.