Guild Wars 2

The armor stat is mostly under rated because it scales badly and only offers a little breathing room when you screw up and can’t dodge.
Not only that but more armor causes a higher probability of mob aggro specially if you’re using a melee class.
This has triggered the mentality that Pure Zerker gears are better than balanced ones.
This is apparent in groups in LFG with descriptions like “ZERKER GEARS ONLY. PING GEARS UPON JOINING.”
The solution I’m suggesting would hopefully fix this problem.

Adding an Armor Cap in Dungeons:

1. This would entail adding dungeon boss attacks that cannot be dodged.
2. This attack would do massive damage or more preferably OHKO any player who does not pass a specific armor threshold.
3. This armor cap would be different between classes to take into account the innate armor difference between armor types.
4. The armor cap would also scale to the level of the dungeon.
e.g. If AC requires a heavy armor user to have 2300 armor at level 80 to survive, Arah would entail a higher armor value in order for them to survive.
5. Any player who passes the armor cap would receive small to mediocre damage which could be mitigated with more armor.

This would solve two problems:

1. Toughness now has its use other than slightly decreasing damage.
2. Because everything can be dodged, people think armor has no merit. Now, we have an attack that can’t be dodged which would make you rely on armor.

Perks:
1. This would practically require players to mix and match their stats and lead to a more diverse plethora of builds.
2. Would prevent pure Zerker build from being the best and most widely used build.

P.S.
This does not pose a solution to every problem concerning stats being underused but it is a start.
Thank you for reading and good day.

zergs in dungeons are not a big problem, the real big problem are the open world zergs.

So basically you are saying. I don’t like full zerker so it would be better if the game make it impossible to play full zerker.?

Nobody force you to play full zerker. Only a fraction of LFG post ask for full zerker. So let people play full zerker if they want and play how you wanna play. I play full zerker on some of my character and other I play differently. Play as you want and let others play as they want.

Thaddeus.4891:

So basically you are saying. I don’t like full zerker so it would be better if the game make it impossible to play full zerker.?

Nobody force you to play full zerker. Only a fraction of LFG post ask for full zerker. So let people play full zerker if they want and play how you wanna play. I play full zerker on some of my character and other I play differently. Play as you want and let others play as they want.

No, I’m saying let other builds be viable. Let armor have more of an effect. More of an impact. I personally play full zerker and I have spare toughness gears too. I hate how a stat that’s supposed to give me more breathing room, make it easier for me to play, is actually holding me down. It just makes me aggro more, making it harder for me to make a clean hit, which makes me use dodges a whole lot more because even with high armor, a hit by a boss still hurts. Because it is easier to play zerker. You just don’t get that much aggro which makes you dodge a whole lot better and dish out that much more damage. Makes you finish a dungeon that much faster. That’s why it’s so popular and a vast majority of players use it.

So then where does that leave other stats? Healing? Toughness? Vitality? Power, precision, and crit damage aren’t the only stats you know. I’m asking for more use for a stat that is often swept aside because “zerker is better” or “why get it if you can dodge”.

I don’t hate zerker at all. I use it and is my favorite build. I’m merely suggesting a way for people to think of more balanced builds and not just go “I’ll go zerker cuz it kills faster”.

So why does your proposed change make it so that anyone running zerker should expect to die at least one time if not more in a dungeon due to the undodgeable OHKO attack?

That will quickly turn into: “NO ZERKERS. Ping gear.”

And it will quickly after that turn into: “[New meta gear] ONLY. Ping gear.”

Your suggestion completely gets rid of one build. Full Zerker builds is NOT the problem. Your solution to the people who require Full Zerkers in their dungeon groups removes Full Zerker as a possible build.

And what this game needs right now is build diversity. Not a suggestion that will just push people into the next best build. Which will be as CLOSE to Full Zerker as possible to survive that OHKO undodgeable attack.

Edit: Editing to add that while the problem is a real one and one that worries me since I run Full Clerics, I don’t think your solution is the way to go since it destroys a build in an attempt to get people to go to a variety of builds. When from my understanding of MMO players, they’ll just all migrate to the next best build. Which is still not build variety.

There needs to be an effective balance between the main 3 builds, that this game is lacking

P/T/V vs P/T/Pre vs P/Pre/C% should yield the same amount of damage over a set period of time. Whether that be 30 seconds or 45 seconds.

What I would like to see, Berserker builds spike their damage faster, but when their CD’s are all used they stream line their damage down to a sustained number (lets say 10K DPS), while Knight/Defensive Builds have smaller spike Damage but their sustained DPS is a bit higher (Lets say 12k DPS). This way, the only difference on what you run would be based on the type of thing you are fighting and if spiky damage is more effective then sustained damage.

Burst = Kill Vets faster, But doesnt Kill Champs any faster. Good for Farming Open World, can be good in WvW(if played correctly), Relies on Player’s Reflexes for defensive abilities.

Sustained = Doesnt Kill Vets faster, but the sustained Damage allots for fighting Multiple Vets at the same time (2-3) with out having to worry about running a full defensive line of utilities and skills, Champs cant kill you as fast because of the innate defense from your Toughness/Vitality, Good for WvW and doesnt require ‘high player skill’.

Something like that is what I would like to see added to the mechanics to the build offsets. There is no reason when wearing PVT I should be getting 1 shot by the Karka Queen and having my damage Nerfed because of the lack of Crit% and Precision. But I do feel its fair for those that only run Offensive Stats to get 1shot.

sirsquishy.8531:

But I do feel its fair for those that only run Offensive Stats to get 1shot.

As long as the one shot attack has a tell and is avoidable I don’t have an issue with the one shot, one shoting everyone. Maybe even add it to one of the zerg train bosses. Keep the zerg players awake.

Make it tied to player skill and not just their armor stat. Otherwise people will just move to the next best build. Which in your case would be the build with just enough defensive stats to not fall to the one shot attack.

The other builds just need to be made just as viable as the builds that run full berserker. That will add to build variety. Only when the builds are all viable will people run them. Which is probably a long way off as balance takes time.

My knight guardian says hi and also you are full of kitten.
I have 5 toons, 3 of them at lvl 80, 1 of them is a full zerker, the rest is “balanced builds” (LOL).

Dodging is a game mechanic based on consumable. Most of the game’s content is focused on dodging and proper positioning (e.g. soloing lupicus). You either time it right or you eat the bullet. If you prefer to stay in 1 spot in your soldier’s armor and spam the auto-attack and feel like a God, that’s your choice. I enjoy the action combat and knowing that my zerker might get 1-shotted if i misdodge is fun to me.

Zerker and Assassin are here to stay, whether you like it or not.
Dodging is a basic game mechanic, so is proper positioning.
Self-healing and self-sustaining by the means of skills, combo finishers, pure survivability or DODGING is a base game mechanic. It really is the foundation of the game, so you either learn to play or go away.

ITT : I don’t like how certain people play the game so change the game to make it more into what i want and not allow them to play their own way. Sounds great.

Reread this :

Seera.5916:

So why does your proposed change make it so that anyone running zerker should expect to die at least one time if not more in a dungeon due to the undodgeable OHKO attack?

That will quickly turn into: “NO ZERKERS. Ping gear.”

And it will quickly after that turn into: “[New meta gear] ONLY. Ping gear.”

Your suggestion completely gets rid of one build. Full Zerker builds is NOT the problem. Your solution to the people who require Full Zerkers in their dungeon groups removes Full Zerker as a possible build.

what we need is a revalorisation of toughtness so to make it feel more appealing. The excuse to full zerk i often see is ‘’damage makes boss hits us less often wich result into better tanking and waste twice as half time. people with toughness makes it longuer for everyone and more likely for zerk player to die’’ this is the most ridiculus statement i ever heard about. Anet didnt class to be able to tank boss but they should clearly punish people for zerk burning them down as well so to force them to run various build in dungeon and less all out damage relying entirely on dodge. What about a Pressure gimmick wich makes that every hit you take increase damage taken by 5% to 10% for 10 second reseting to 0 if not hit within that time limit and stacking up to 100% reseting its own cooldown if hit several time while trippling the scaling damage reduction value of toughtness versus mobs. This would make defensive style viable while preventing any form of permanant standing tanking (the wow style) and force the defensive character to keep dodging and kiting the boss around rather then simply stand and take the hits while making the agro on toughness actualy usefull for something o_O (this would also make pet somewhat more usefull). While not making toughness style essential it would revalorise it in the eye of the community.

Second thing… make stackable boss impossible to stack for by adding aoe attack gimmick that one shot players who doesnt dodge or making the auto attack deadlyer or strike as a AOE effect (aka spider boss in AC who just doesnt use the net spray on stacking player and the countess of spider boss in TA wich is simply a faceroll because she just doesnt do any damage when brought in that corner x.x

this way well get a few zerker a defensive character and likely a support because altrought going full defensive could work as well youl waste a lot of time doing the dps a 4 zerk + 1 D would do, on the other hand having 1 defensive in the group will make the boss a thousand time easyer for everyone from not having to constantly dodge a targeted strike on your head giving a chance to zerk character to have a free shot at the boss without constantly behing worried about getting struck.

About the original suggestion:
Artificial limits, restrictions or strong incentives are the wrong way to go.
Rather balance the armor stats, if that does not work, something is fundamentally wrong and you should just give up. Making boss hit 10k more just because you didn’t quite reach some treshold makes things worse, not better.
Secondly, if they want to play the dodging way, let them. It’s their style, no need to cripple it.

The biggest problem is that armor rating does not scale properly to the incrementally higher damage that enemies do in high end PVE. Something that would solve this problem, is if not armor, but damage from enemies was hard capped, depending on your armor rating.

So the higher your armor, the more enemy damage will be capped. So no more insta-kills. Because that’s what is wrong with the game: There is no difference between failing to dodge a powerful attack in zerker gear, and taking a full hit while wearing maximum armor. In both cases you are dead, so people go full zerker. Might as well max out the damage right? So what they need to do is put some restrictions on how much damage monsters are allowed to deal to a player in full armor.

Consider renaming the thread to Armor cap to ruin the game for the ones having fun.

tom.7468:

Consider renaming the thread to Armor cap to ruin the game for the ones having fun.

more like armor cap to ruin the game for the baddies having fun laughing at anyone who isnt using a zerk build.

Tbh full zerker is what i run on close to all my character however i dont spec all out damage to compensate for the actual survivability loss because i dont like glass cannon to begin with. Running raw damage warriors makes me feel like a thief running raw damage guardian also makes me feel like a thief. Warriors is supose to be able to take the blows and push mobs around with knockdown or stun them, simply running Axe or Greatsword just feel wrong so i run Rifle Hammer mace shield and dual sword or sword shield. Altrought i do something gets my greatsword out for damage sake id rather keep it in my bag at all time if i could.

People say all zerker for dungeons because pve is so easy-mode in GW2 that if you’re not wearing zerker, you’re wasting the rest of your parties time. There’s a few exceptions, but not many unfortunately. Maybe if they made PvE more difficult one day, people would stop requiring it.

People don’t understand.

“Pure zerker” builds are not the issue here. Zerker just happens to be the optimal set to do content in IF you’re good and have a group that knows their way around the content.

It might as well be " Pure whatever " -since if armor cap or other mechanics that render zerker obsolete are placed in the game the people that speed clear now as full zerkers , the ones that demand full zerker will just switch to the next optimal set and that’ll be the end of it.

You will NEVER have more build diversity than we do right now. Because there will always be one armor stat combo that is better than the others. No matter how you make the game. So yes – min maxers will always request it.

IF you’re tired of " full zerker doing this or that " remember this : if you change boss mechanics you’ll just have " full knights doing this or that " and pretty soon you’ll have a new " Whatever cap to avoid full knight builds".

Remember that most people just can’t go full zerker. You need to have some skill to be able to play full zerker and survive.

- My mesmer is full zerker,
- My guardian is more hybrid (support trait with full zerker gear) and i always have a knight gear to kite and take agro on me when we do guild run for some content.
- My Engineer is Rabid
- My Elementalist is Celestial/Valkirie
and My Warrior is Soldier/Zerker for WvW

So i think you have plenty of stats you can use for your characters.

Thats said. I agree that there is some balancing between DPS and Support. DPS build don’t really need that much support and anyway the best support of the game (boons, reflect, ect) usually only need little trait and no stats at all to work well. This mean that 99% of you build need to concentrate on your dps and give you the minimum you need to stay alive (that depend on your skill as a player). But build that concentrate on support are most of the time a waste of time. I understand your point and a some degree I agree. But the problem is more deeper in our current build possibility and making undodgeable attack is simply a bad design.

A better way to make things a bit more balance DPS/Support wise would be more something like that. Make current support skill really bad except if you trait them. For exemple, Warrior would have kittenty Banner or shout without traiting them. So 1 warrior will trait into banner and will offer Discipline, Strenght and War Banner to the entire group, while other warrior would need to trait into shout to stack might and put vulnerability on bosses. A Guardian will need to use Boons duration to be effective in giving boons to the group or his boons would last really to short to matter. These are just crude idea, but you see my point. Right now support trait are almost useless because the best support are in good utility skill not good trait or good stats.

When people say “If you’re good” or “If you’re skilled” they mean that you know how to avoid an enemy skill or a giant obvious red circle. I don’t know how that really relates to skill, seems more like common sense and a very basic reaction speed.

WhiteAndMilky.2514:

When people say “If you’re good” or “If you’re skilled” they mean that you know how to avoid an enemy skill or a giant obvious red circle. I don’t know how that really relates to skill, seems more like common sense and a very basic reaction speed.

It’s much better than making it a OHKO that has no tell and will kill anyone who doesn’t have X armor. Because having X armor isn’t skill either.

Being able to recognize a tell or notice that your in a red circle is more skill related to me than having an armor of more than X.

Thaddeus.4891:

So basically you are saying. I don’t like full zerker so it would be better if the game make it impossible to play full zerker.?

Nobody force you to play full zerker. Only a fraction of LFG post ask for full zerker. So let people play full zerker if they want and play how you wanna play. I play full zerker on some of my character and other I play differently. Play as you want and let others play as they want.

This. exactly.

You don’t like a build? don’t use it – you want other builds enhanced? lobby for that. Don’t ask for a nerf because you don’t like something.

“Zerker only” listings are made by players seeking to perform speed-runs (and elitists who are too emotionally invested in “performance”).

It has nothing to do with armor-value.

What “Zerker” really means is Power/Crit-focused Warrior. Warriors have access to both a high base health and heavy armor, which means they have the highest base-defense of any profession.
That means their risk with pure-damage builds is minimized.

Couple 4 zerkers with a Mesmer sporting “Time Warp”, and you have the highest potential damage output of any 5-man group. Damage is all people really need to focus on in the easier dungeons like CoF P1/2.
That is why “Zerker only” is a common listing LFG phrase.

Berserker stats are further encouraged due to the technical limits of the game, forcing ArenaNet to cap conditions at 25 stacks.
Hopefully, they will fix that to some degree, and we’ll see condition-builds become more popular too; but “Zerker” will probably still be more reliable.

kyubi.3620:

tom.7468:

Consider renaming the thread to Armor cap to ruin the game for the ones having fun.

more like armor cap to ruin the game for the baddies having fun laughing at anyone who isnt using a zerk build.

Tbh full zerker is what i run on close to all my character however i dont spec all out damage to compensate for the actual survivability loss because i dont like glass cannon to begin with. Running raw damage warriors makes me feel like a thief running raw damage guardian also makes me feel like a thief. Warriors is supose to be able to take the blows and push mobs around with knockdown or stun them, simply running Axe or Greatsword just feel wrong so i run Rifle Hammer mace shield and dual sword or sword shield. Altrought i do something gets my greatsword out for damage sake id rather keep it in my bag at all time if i could.

It’s difficult to take seriously anyone who uses the expression “baddies” thinking it adds anything of value to their argument.

If anything, running berserker in higher tier dungeons does take a higher degree of skill than running, say, soldiers/sentinel. Being so squishy leaves little space for mistakes and forces you to pay attention to your surroundings if you want to stay alive.

FenrirSlakt.3692:

If anything, running berserker in higher tier dungeons does take a higher degree of skill than running, say, soldiers/sentinel. Being so squishy leaves little space for mistakes and forces you to pay attention to your surroundings if you want to stay alive.

Well, only to a certain degree. At some difficulty levels there is very little difference between having no armor, and having max armor, since enemies start to deal insane amounts of damage. There are plenty of bosses in the game that have attacks that will instantly down you, regardless of armor. In those case it actually makes sense to fore go all armor, and just focus on maximizing damage. But there in lies the problem. The OP’s suggestion is exactly the wrong solution. Zerker builds should not be discouraged by making it useless. Instead, armor should be encouraged, by making it more useful.

This allows zerker builds to still remain as viable as they were before, but makes other gear combinations equally interesting choices. More choice is always better.