Guild Wars 2

In the Feb 1st announcement on “Dynamic Leveling Adjustment” I’d like to point out something Isaiah Cartwright wrote. It was “While this will make some areas harder, our goal is to make all areas of Guild Wars 2 exciting and fun for players of any level.” I’d just like to point out, harder doesn’t equal fun. Fun is a completely different emotion. I do notice most of the game design is based upon a thought that challenge+adrenaline=Exciting and fun??? Which is simply not true….

Just something to think about for future design and content

i agree i also honestly feel like once i hit level 80 i should not be scaled so far down to go do areas i missed before. i understand those areas are designed for that level but a few things
1. i still have to kill the same stuff to do those quests there doing it faster wont hurt, it fact it will make it more fun feeling so powerfull and then leaving to see you are not top dog.
2. there is no mounts so being a high level in a low level zone is kinda pointless as in i still have to walk / run to every waypoint (sooooo lame) and
3. “lower levels may want you to help them with their quests while you are there…” so what i dont want to help them and if i do awesome for them they get a quest done faster and have to figure out how to make up for the loss of exp on their own and lastly
4. i still have just as much chance of getting a cool level 80ish item from wooden chests as i do from mobs it seems so why would i be scaled down to level 15 to get a level 80 rare gratesword? scaleing is bad and it hurts the fun factor of people who dont have all day everyday to play this game (some of us have jobs and lives and significant others who dont allow for “hardcore” time dedication to grind as much as this game demands from time to time)

I could also argue that easy =/= fun. After all, ‘fun’ is subjective, and there is no way in God’s green land they’ll please everyone.

Scaling down has a number of other advantages as well, such as:

• stops people spoiling events for who they are meant for. If a level 80 comes in and absolutely destroys everything it sneezes at, that means the people relying on said events don’t get the participation needed to get XP.
• keeps all content relevant. Not scaling down while having level-equivalent drops means everyone will farm the easiest areas for loot. Not scaling down while not having level-appropriate loot will mean everyone will stay in the higher areas.

Totally agree, for a few maybe those emotions equals fun, but not for me, i prefer my fun to be less challenging and more well fun,

To give an example…
Certain jump puzzles are fun you explore them find new areas etc some are challenging but the adventurer in me finds them fun.. Diessa, Lions Arch and many others..

Then you have the other jump puzzles, that require insane ping times stupid hand eye coordination and make you wait between goes, they are just not fun that to me doesn’t equal fun Southsun Cove (larger JP), Halloween, Wintersday.

I also feel the same about Dungeons fighting my kitten off against overpowered pointless trash in them for zero reward bar a few tokens at the end isn’t fun, these new green useless back pieces and accessories instead of a bag just upset me too..

All chests are pretty useless..

TheDaiBish.9735:

I could also argue that easy =/= fun. After all, ‘fun’ is subjective, and there is no way in God’s green land they’ll please everyone.

Scaling down has a number of other advantages as well, such as:

• stops people spoiling events for who they are meant for. If a level 80 comes in and absolutely destroys everything it sneezes at, that means the people relying on said events don’t get the participation needed to get XP.
• keeps all content relevant. Not scaling down while having level-equivalent drops means everyone will farm the easiest areas for loot. Not scaling down while not having level-appropriate loot will mean everyone will stay in the higher areas.

as is with the scaleing now my 80 still solos those lower level events so not scaleing would not stop that

jorjelagay.5780:

as is with the scaleing now my 80 still solos those lower level events so not scaleing would not stop that

Huh? What point of mine was you referring to?

I think scaling down is okay, but Im a level 80 elementalist, and when I get scaled down to level 15 I get absolutely destroyed. They should make it possible to solo areas if. If its a 1-15 level area, than keep your character at least level 15 at all times in that area. Or even better 5 levels here (lvl 20) it would make the game more enjoyable knowing I can play solo and not die constantly.

i personally enjoy the lvl scaling. no maxed out toons blowing through a zone killing everything in sight leaving with nothing till things respawn. played WoW for 8 years and i hated that. when i get to lvl 80 i’ll like the fact that i can’t go anywhere i want and do things easily. thats why i stopped playing WoW.

i like scaling because i can always play with newbie friends or guildie and be same level as them (even if quite stronger due to traits and gear and experience), while doing so still having loot appropriated to my level, gaining exp and challenge my self and my skill even in queensdale! or completing maps solo and when i fight random mobs still getting annoyed like they could really harm me (they don’t in the end).
it is fun for me and works perfectly well.

jorjelagay.5780:

i agree i also honestly feel like once i hit level 80 i should not be scaled so far down to go do areas i missed before. i understand those areas are designed for that level but a few things
1. i still have to kill the same stuff to do those quests there doing it faster wont hurt, it fact it will make it more fun feeling so powerfull and then leaving to see you are not top dog.
2. there is no mounts so being a high level in a low level zone is kinda pointless as in i still have to walk / run to every waypoint (sooooo lame) and
3. “lower levels may want you to help them with their quests while you are there…” so what i dont want to help them and if i do awesome for them they get a quest done faster and have to figure out how to make up for the loss of exp on their own and lastly
4. i still have just as much chance of getting a cool level 80ish item from wooden chests as i do from mobs it seems so why would i be scaled down to level 15 to get a level 80 rare gratesword? scaleing is bad and it hurts the fun factor of people who dont have all day everyday to play this game (some of us have jobs and lives and significant others who dont allow for “hardcore” time dedication to grind as much as this game demands from time to time)

Yes because 1 shotting everything mob that is a lower lvl to you is so fun, I mean, maybe for the first 5-10 kills it’d feel like “Look how powerful I am” but after spending 90% of map complete runing around 1 shotting mobs I think i’d be ready to give up. Atleast scaling makes it feel more like you’re playing the game not just zooming around without any challange at all to give you something to do.

Onto OP, Hard doesn’t mean fun, nor does easy make things any more fun. However, by making challenges harder, it makes them longer and therefore you wont get bored of it so quick. It also gives a much greater sense of achivement and reward when you finally complete something that was challenging instead of “oh yeah I just soloed that without struggling, no biggie”. Let’s take dungeons, if dungeons took 5 mins do you really think that’d be fun? Or would you get so bored of it after runing it 5000 times that you never want to step foot in the dungeon ever again. People already moan that there isn’t enough “end game” in the game because they’ve already done most things, to make them even easier to do would mean people run out of things to do much faster then if it took them longer.

The speed at which players and enemies are killed affect the “fun” or engagement factor but it doesn’t make it. Better scaling is the first step in making is the first step, the next and probably most difficult one is revamping enemy encounters so that they’re actually interesting and “fun” to fight.

Case in point, GW1 instances were very well designed and scaled (technically power plateaus early on), so people naturally had “fun” running them continuously.

Yes but easy games aren’t satisfying.

I have to disagree!

Those others that disagreed are kind of giving many points for the disagreement…
Especially: Easy games aren’t satisfying… Probably in the first play-through, because of the exploration, story, atmosphere and such things.. In general: Because it’s new.
But in the long run, content that is challenging every time is what makes the difference and what keeps many players playing the game. And such content is just not present enough (yet), at least not in the open PvE world for lvl 80s…
Sure, there are certainly exceptions, but the word exception alone says that there can’t be much of that kind in a game…

Looking at the number of people complaining how this game is hard, I doubt we will ever witness truly intense, challenging and satisfying gameplay in exploration or anywhere around the world. There will always be people that feel they are entitled free and free rewards just because they bought the game.

Thing is that once you hit an high level you may want to actually feel like you have an high level character, and that also means steamrolling through level 8 monsters.

I love level scaling. To me it isn’t that adrenaline/excitement = fun, but that being able to play with friends, even friends that have new alts and are playing in low level areas is fun. I want to be able to play alongside them, without completely overwhelming their efforts and without having to work at keeping my characters on an even level with theirs.

I’m guessing that people who are complaining about limiting ability when downleveling are mostly solo players.

Hermes.7014:

Thing is that once you hit an high level you may want to actually feel like you have an high level character, and that also means steamrolling through level 8 monsters.

I’m still doing that as I type this, level 8 mobs can’t even scratch my level 80 warrior.

Aside from fractals/dungeons, champions, and a handful of other exceptions, there is very little in this game that is actually hard. At least when there is a significant challenge, I feel like I can surmount it with skill rather than simply finding armor with higher numbers on it.

Going back to a low-level zone with a high-level character is still a face-roll. It is nothing like being back at that level.

Having a game that is always hard, all the time, isn’t enjoyable — but neither is a game that is always a cakewalk. If you want content handed to you as a reward for simply buying the product and sitting in front of it, go watch TV.

There are two main schools on what the “role” of a video game is: either it is a test of skill, or it provides an experience. I don’t see a use for these distinctions, and the best games achieve both ends in a balanced way. As long as the challenge is fair, and there is a convincing narrative context for said challenge, I’ve nothing to complain about.

Level scaling should never be used in games….EVER. It takes away from the feeling of exhilaration of becoming more powerful and being able to actually SEE THE DIFFERENCE when go to lower levels. Level scaling should at the very least be optional in the game and better yet eliminated altogether. When level scaling exists in a game it makes gaining levels irrelevant.

DeWolfe.2174:

In the Feb 1st announcement on “Dynamic Leveling Adjustment” I’d like to point out something Isaiah Cartwright wrote. It was “While this will make some areas harder, our goal is to make all areas of Guild Wars 2 exciting and fun for players of any level.” I’d just like to point out, harder doesn’t equal fun. Fun is a completely different emotion. I do notice most of the game design is based upon a thought that challenge+adrenaline=Exciting and fun??? Which is simply not true….

Just something to think about for future design and content

If there is too little challenge, there is little fun to be had for most (but not all) players. I took Izzy’s comment to mean that they increased the challenge so that more players would find lower level areas more interesting to return to.

I agree that “hard” doesn’t necessarily mean fun for most people, but I don’t think going to low-level zones as an L80 is anything close to difficult since the last update.

I prefer the downscale, it allows me to level on whatever area I like, and still get xp for it.
It’s not always about level 80, this is more for people who want to level in another area.
Plus this stops farming of bosses which people would do. Champions are meant to be done with others, not solo, there not to be farmed by level 80s.

Shade.6081:

Level scaling should never be used in games….EVER. It takes away from the feeling of exhilaration of becoming more powerful and being able to actually SEE THE DIFFERENCE when go to lower levels. Level scaling should at the very least be optional in the game and better yet eliminated altogether. When level scaling exists in a game it makes gaining levels irrelevant.

You think it’s that fun to go to a low level area and swing around and kill everything you see? To me, that is really, really boring. I think level scaling is one of the best things GW2 has to offer. And the level scaling is still not enough to make the low level areas feel like a breeze. You can just press random buttons on your keyboard and you still survive…maybe an exaggeration but it is alot easier then in the high level areas.

One more thing. The normal quests in this game are already too easy. Sometimes it feels like I am playing a hack n slash game. Removing the level scaling would make it even easier. Plus, leveling scaling also makes the game feel more “realistic” since all mobs put up a fight, no matter the level.

Fun is indeed subjective. For me, the game would be more fun if there was alternatives available to rolling around in the mud all day (aka dodging).

Interrupts and blocks don’t cut it, as frankly their cooldowns are 3+ times longer than a dodge (never mind a vigor backed dodge) and have even bigger timing issues than dodge has.

I find challenge fun. Now what?

Also, if level scaling did not exist, we would not have rewards of value in low level areas. If we still gained good karma, experience, and level 80 items in low level areas without scaling, why would anyone spend time in high level areas?

Let me one shot everything in level 1 when I’ve reached level 80. If level gain is too unsatisfying when going back to lower levels then have an option to not scale a players health or toughness when down scaling with reduced drop rewards to compensate for the partial scaling. Doing this though, the high level players maybe too tough for map foes to kill. Another option would be to only scale the health and toughness of higher levels players down half of the difference of foe level while strength level is fully scaled to foe level. Example player level 80 vs foe level 1= player strength 1, health 39.5, toughness 39.5.

You don’t like it go back to wow, cuz the people in the enjoying don’t wanna play that greedy farming game crap no more.

My original comment stands. There is no logical reason for dropping a characters level only because he crossed a boundary between geographical areas. As far as the “greedy farming crap” statement ….LOL. Who said anything about that? No one. Just cut the idiotic level scaling. The whole concept of losing levels because of geographical location is just laughable.

appling logic to make believe fantasy gaming is laughable.

TwoBit.5903:

The speed at which players and enemies are killed affect the “fun” or engagement factor but it doesn’t make it. Better scaling is the first step in making is the first step, the next and probably most difficult one is revamping enemy encounters so that they’re actually interesting and “fun” to fight.

Case in point, GW1 instances were very well designed and scaled (technically power plateaus early on), so people naturally had “fun” running them continuously.

Speak for yourself, for every person who had “fun” there was another who thought it was nothing but a tedious grind and totally “un-fun”.

Increasing the challenge does not increase the fun. Case in point…the dungeoun changes. MANY new players to dungeouns are being kicked simply because people “can’t bother to explain a fight” and it takes too bloody long to get a downed person on their feet. If they wanted to stop the glass cannon builds than they could have made toughness have a marked improvement in damage reduction. When is the last time anyone has seen a full toughness build (every peice of gear had toughness as the top stat)?

Enemies in general need hp cut across the board. It is not fun sitting and having to dodge like crazy an enemy when they do not have to do the exact same thing to survive OUR attack. It would be far more enguaging and fun if npcs went down as fast as us (yes this includes champs) and instead had to rely ont heir own ability to dodge/mitigate damage pro-actively instead of just being walking hp sponges.

If we weren’t down leveled I might enjoy the climb to level 80. That way I could best judge what area I want to play in, but with down leveling Arena net makes that decision for you by pigeon-holing you into a whatever zone your in (I like being a few levels stronger than my computer enemies like you can in single player games).

As it is the whole game feels like there is no point to get stronger. Having said this I only like WvWing at level 80 in this game because the up leveling is also crap so I have to PvE with down leveling for my Alts. kitten its a circular problem… grrrrrr.

Just get rid of all level scaling up and down please so I can play the game instead of the game playing me.

Runiir.6425:

MANY new players to dungeouns are being kicked simply because people “can’t bother to explain a fight” and it takes too bloody long to get a downed person on their feet. If they wanted to stop the glass cannon builds than they could have made toughness have a marked improvement in damage reduction. When is the last time anyone has seen a full toughness build (every peice of gear had toughness as the top stat)?

^ This.

A group of 5 in CoF/3 last night for 3 hours and we all quit because we couldn’t kill the second boss after the torches… There was possibly 2 fairly green players (me and another) but 3 were CoF veterans. Man I wasted the whole night for nothing…

Lag was the biggest factor in not beating but I run a toughness build and I was getting cleaned up in a couple of hits.

The only downscaling that ever poses a problem is in dungeons, and it really shows the weak points of this system too. It seems moreso on trash than bosses (with a few exceptions of course). There needs to be separate scaling for dungeons from open world, and in fact a whole separate set of rules for dungeons than open world because they set separate mechanics, health, toughness, difficulty, for each dungeon trash and the game needs to reflect that in our own characters in some form or another.

Runiir.6425:

TwoBit.5903:

The speed at which players and enemies are killed affect the “fun” or engagement factor but it doesn’t make it. Better scaling is the first step in making is the first step, the next and probably most difficult one is revamping enemy encounters so that they’re actually interesting and “fun” to fight.

Case in point, GW1 instances were very well designed and scaled (technically power plateaus early on), so people naturally had “fun” running them continuously.

Speak for yourself, for every person who had “fun” there was another who thought it was nothing but a tedious grind and totally “un-fun”.

Increasing the challenge does not increase the fun. Case in point…the dungeoun changes. MANY new players to dungeouns are being kicked simply because people “can’t bother to explain a fight” and it takes too bloody long to get a downed person on their feet. If they wanted to stop the glass cannon builds than they could have made toughness have a marked improvement in damage reduction. When is the last time anyone has seen a full toughness build (every peice of gear had toughness as the top stat)?

Enemies in general need hp cut across the board. It is not fun sitting and having to dodge like crazy an enemy when they do not have to do the exact same thing to survive OUR attack. It would be far more enguaging and fun if npcs went down as fast as us (yes this includes champs) and instead had to rely ont heir own ability to dodge/mitigate damage pro-actively instead of just being walking hp sponges.

You’re confusing challenge with punishing difficulty. GW1 instances offered very fair challenges without being all too difficult; you just needed to figure out the comp and the rest is an execution challenge (doing things in a certain order given the situation). GW2 dungeons are punishing without actually giving players a fair challenges-instagibs, bosses that spam aoe, attacks that are untelegraphed and cheat their animations (seriously wtf on this), strict dps/hps checks, etc. I make an effort to steer friends away from the dungeon experience in this game because they’re that bad.

A good example of challenge in GW2 is fractals. Players are given a tasks they can accomplish reasonably given the abilities of their profession. It gets more punishing as you do more higher levels, but that actually adds to the fun since the challenges are fair.

TwoBit.5903:

.

A good example of challenge in GW2 is fractals. Players are given a tasks they can accomplish reasonably given the abilities of their profession. It gets more punishing as you do more higher levels, but that actually adds to the fun since the challenges are fair.

Imo this is exactly how dungeons should be run in this game. Fractals is fun, it’s challenging if you want it to be, most of the mechanics are clear and easily understandable, there are still 1 shots if you’re not watching closely enough, but there’s no insanely high hp trash that rival boss defense and hp, the bosses aren’t mindlessly spamming aoe’s in large circles on top of each other, each fight requires some planning and has techniques you must do to be successful that do not involve “getting your dodges right” or “burning with enough dps”

I don’t want to dispute anyone’s opinion of ‘fun’, because each person has a right to what they enjoy.

But, honestly, I think the downscaling needs tweaking. When I take my level 80 into a low-level zone to hang out with a friend, I don’t want to feel like I’m ruining the experience by two-shotting every mob that comes near us, which is exactly what happens with the current downscaling.

Upscaling has the same concerns. The bump up to level 80 still leaves a character at a major disadvantage due to lack of level 80 gear. If fractals and WvW are going to be ‘accessible’ to low-level characters, then the upscaling should be slightly more effective, while still leaving incentive for the low-level player to gear up.

Catisa.6507:

appling logic to make believe fantasy gaming is laughable.

Your response is laughable. Logic can be applied to anything. And Level scaling is still a disease of games that needs a cure.

It’s not just about fun.

A lot of players have been finding that the down-scaling isn’t enough.
When they play with low-level friends, those friends will take 5~10 hits to kill a mob while they are still 1~3shoting everything.

Downscaled players playing with friends have to hold-back just to avoid sucking all the fun of combat away from their group.

—

Arena Net is focused on the problems of players who are grouping together.
Not the ones who are running around solo and want to feel god-like.

Shade.6081:

My original comment stands. There is no logical reason for dropping a characters level only because he crossed a boundary between geographical areas.

Some guy on the street with a gun can still kill a professional if the professional is careless / not paying attention.

Is that logic good enough?

i still rip through enemies when im downlevelled (well… except on my necro/mesmer… which are condi specs… and i hate mesmer in PvE)… just do it marginally slower than i did pre patch (still much faster than my alts levelling in the same zone)

I intensely dislike the Level Scaling, its why having reached Lv 43 I have basically retired my toon for the last 3 mnoths and returned to GW1 where at least I get to keep what I have earned; vs having it taken from me because I have crossed some arbitrary line.
Just lately I’ve picked up GW2 again more to touch base with friends than for the game itself; I still find everything I did not like about it still applies. And yes I solo alot, but I think everyone really does, sure there is more playing around other players in GW2; but I think there is still more actual playing with other players in GW1; thats certainly my experiance; And as a person who did not start day one release.. I find I go for hours without sighting a single other player in the <80 zones I travel in; so soloing is certainly not always a matter for choice; but solo or no, choice or no, my toon, and yours are still nerfed; while the mobs are not.. it has not been my experiance that the problem is anything like a Lv 80 blowing away the mobs; or heaven forbid farming (like who enjoys being broke all the time.) The problem in my experiance is getting whacked by Mobs you could have killed if you had only been allowed to play your toon, at the level you’ve earned. With this system why have levels at all really; they become meaningless; so what am I accomplishing by leveling up when my level does not matter, only the Nerf Ceiling Matters. I’m supposedly a Lv 40+ how often do I see Lv 40 almost never.

As to the proposition your supposed to group up… no-one likes a begger that’s why the word leaves a bad taste in your mouth; so my anwser to the proposition that I am supposed to ask my friends, and Guildmates to help my nerfed self through a zone; much less zone after zone; where-in I am wasting their time, and nothing that drops can possibly profit them is no. I chat with my friends all the time, but I am not going to begger them, that would be both sad and rude, It astounds me, it really does, that this makes sense to anyone.

So Dear Devs please kill the Level Nerf. I really like the art, the Vistas, alot about this new game; but so long as the Level Nerf is in place. I cant imagine my toon will ever see Level 80. I simply cant bring myself to spend more than a few hours a month here anymore. CU in GW1

Edit: 29Mar… Dear Dev’s Have U ever thought of Adjusting the Level Nerf say so a Toon is a lv 20 zone is pulled down to 30; so you have a better chance of being able to fend for yourself without totally overpowering the content; just a thought.

I don’t understand why you want the level scaling removed from the game. Even scaled down, the mobs are easy as hell to defeat (I mean if you visit a low level area with a scaled down character). (To me) It’s basically a hack n slash game outside the dungeons.