Guild Wars 2

There needs to be some in-game way of guild members to demote/vote out their Guild Leader if he becomes inactive or tyrannical. Otherwise a guild rebuild would lose name, influence, reputation, and so much more.

Ticket

Subject
Guild Leader Issue

Discussion Thread
Response Via Email (Antoine) 11/29/2012 04:00 PM
Greetings X,

I’m very sorry to hear about the issue you’ve been having with your guild. I’m afraid we simply do not have a tool that will allow us to edit guild ranks and memberships just yet. We’d be unable to remove the current leader right now.

The only recommendation I could make right now is to post feedback for the developers to see directly if you feel a feature to modify guilds should be implemented in the game for guilds to self-govern. The best way to have your feedback or suggestions for Guild Wars 2 reach someone in development is to post it in a public forum like the Official Forums (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions), Twitter (#!/GuildWars2), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/GuildWars2), or on a Fan Site. The more people who view and comment on it, the more likely developers will take notice.

If you have any other issues or questions, please let us know.

Regards,
GM Onyx
Guild Wars Support Team

Customer By Email (X) 11/29/2012 01:46 PM
Okay, I’d really LOVE your suggestion of getting him to leave the guild if we could just get a hold of the guy. As mentioned in the ticket, he hasn’t been seen or heard of in 2 months and has not responded to any contact method we’ve tried. So, is there not a way for you guys on your end to kick him from the guild, essentially it would do the same as you said in that his rank would change. If he ever returned, we’d certainly get him back in…but it’s like right now we’re getting shafted by his total lack
of care and absence in the guild. It’s not changing the ranks or anything, you’re just kicking him out of the guild, something I’m sure you have a tool for. Please, consider it. thank you.

---

On Thu, 11/29/12, Guild Wars 2 Support wrote:
Response Via Email (Taredis) 11/29/2012 09:40 AM
Hi there X;

We are very sorry to hear you and your guild ran into this issue, with your guild master. Right now though we don’t actually have the tools that would allow for us to alter your guild’s roster on our end of things. We would help you out in a minute if we could, but right now the only way to get this resolved would be to ask that player to leave the guild, then re-invite him so that he would be in the proper rank. Other than though there would not be a way to affect a character who has been given the rank of leader. You could do as you mentioned and form a new guild and have everyone transfer to that one, but we would not be able to transfer the name for you right now. Again I am very sorry that we can’t affect more to get this resolved for you right now. I would certainly be more than happy to help if I could, but we simply haven’t been provided with the ability to make any changes like this yet.

Regards;
Chase
Guild Wars Support Team

Customer By Web Form (X) 11/28/2012 10:53 PM
Hello,

I’m from X on X server. We formed our guild long ago prior to the game’s launch (originally was on X, but transferred our guild over a month in). As of around 2 months ago was the last time our Guild Leader logged into the game (or our guild website). We’ve tried every means into contacting him, which of no avail, he’s not responded to PM’s, emails, nothing. We’re hoping that nothing serious has happened, but as the same time we think that he’s just abandoned the game and our guild.

Our guild leader’s name is/was X. The current issue is that by the game’s set up in ranks, there’s no way for us as a guild to move him from being the guild leader and get one of our other Officers ranked up to leader as we want to. So is the dilemma, because we cannot do many things we want to do without a solid leader position set up.

So comes to my request from the GM’s of the game:
1) Would it be possible for the GM’s to de-rank our current guild leader X and replace him with a few of our current officers (multiples was our decision to prevent something like this happening again).

2) If #1 isn’t possible, would it be possible to just change our Officer’s rank to allow them to change the rank of those above so that we can manually set X down and others up? Basically it’s a request to change permissions of our Officer rank within the guild since it’s buggy that we cannot do it that way.

3) If neither #1 or #2 is possible and the game’s systems don’t support this (for who knows WHY it wouldn’t considering how well set Guild systems are and all this is would be a bug fix), then would it be possible that IF we had to reform our guild within the game through solid leadership, that we can get the X name right back again so that we don’t loss that?

Thank you for your time.

Agreed, this kind of feature is definitely a no-brainer and I was a bit surprised to find that nothing like this was already in place.

Sorry about your current situation. I’ve found myself in a similarly derailed guild in MMOs in the past, so I know how much that sucks.

No.

I created a gaming community over 10 years ago on various games. We ended up mostly playing GW1 and WoW. We quit WoW shortly after Firelands (2nd major content update in Cataclysm expansion) and during that time they added a feature like this.

When we quit the game as a guild, there was an understanding that those who remained who do so just for the guild perks (I wasn’t going to kick everyone who had gotten max rep with the guild so they’d have to start over) and that the guild was never going to be playing it again.

What’d they do? They added a feature to usurp guild leadership in the event that the guild leader is inactive too long. So now I had to go back and kick everyone because I wasn’t going to let someone take over what I had built and use it for their own means. If a guild leader decides to quit and doesn’t tell anybody, I realize that sucks – but there are plenty of other guilds you can join with active leaders without stealing something from someone else.

If I was deployed to Iraq, for example, my guild would understand – but I’d come back with someone else leading my guild? And be lucky if I logged in still even a member of that guild? No thanks. If there is a tyrannical leader, you have the freedom to shove it in his face and leave. Let his guild die with his poor attitude.

No . A mutiny should never be something that can be put to a vote .

Mkalafut.1273:

No.

I created a gaming community over 10 years ago on various games. We ended up mostly playing GW1 and WoW. We quit WoW shortly after Firelands (2nd major content update in Cataclysm expansion) and during that time they added a feature like this.

When we quit the game as a guild, there was an understanding that those who remained who do so just for the guild perks (I wasn’t going to kick everyone who had gotten max rep with the guild so they’d have to start over) and that the guild was never going to be playing it again.

What’d they do? They added a feature to usurp guild leadership in the event that the guild leader is inactive too long. So now I had to go back and kick everyone because I wasn’t going to let someone take over what I had built and use it for their own means. If a guild leader decides to quit and doesn’t tell anybody, I realize that sucks – but there are plenty of other guilds you can join with active leaders without stealing something from someone else.

If I was deployed to Iraq, for example, my guild would understand – but I’d come back with someone else leading my guild? And be lucky if I logged in still even a member of that guild? No thanks. If there is a tyrannical leader, you have the freedom to shove it in his face and leave. Let his guild die with his poor attitude.

What nerve and GULL do you have?! All I hear is “I, I, I, I, I” in your entire thing. Well guess what…a guild is NOT A GUILD OF ONE! Community built guilds created prior to the game’s launch take a lot of people to make. Our current officers did wonders from making recruitment Youtube videos to designing the website, and even set up of the VOIP server. Oh, and you think all that comes cheap? Every month guild members donated through our website prior to launch so that we’d have funds for such things.

Also, there was no “we” in this situation of him quitting . If you’d bother to read the original post, our guild leader ABANDONED US: no words, no contact, no nothing. We’ve tried reaching him by every means he’s provided both in-game and out, but to no advancement. So it’s nothing like your example of your entire guild deciding to split.

P.S. Guilds aren’t there to server the leader, as your tone so puts it. They’re there to bring together like-minded players to enjoy the game and build a bonding friendship throughout the time. Guild leaders are there to SERVE THE GUILD through leadership.

P.P.S. To kick everyone out of a guild and delete/disband it just because some people want to continue on where you give up…well that’s just as bad as a guild leader stealing everything from a bank and splitting/leaving….it’s just demonically selfish.

This can be very much abused.

What if a group of friends infiltrate one of the top-guilds and then decide to hijack it by demoting the leader and putting their own there?

A voting system should never be implemented for decisions like this.

What I can however see as a good idea is the demotion of a leader that has not been online for a certain amount of time (such as 1 week or something like that, as a default)

lordkrall.7241:

This can be very much abused.

What if a group of friends infiltrate one of the top-guilds and then decide to hijack it by demoting the leader and putting their own there?

A voting system should never be implemented for decisions like this.

What I can however see as a good idea is the demotion of a leader that has not been online for a certain amount of time (such as 1 week or something like that, as a default)

I can partially agree with this. A voting system that would allow inactive leaders to be demoted would be an “alright” idea, 1 week however is WAY to short (think of hollidays).

It’s a bit dodgy, right now i’m a GL myself i however co-lead with several other people. If i would ever be demoted i’d want that decission do come from the co-leaders. Then again, who doesnt say they just want to usurp eachothers power and switch the Guild to their sole-leadership? … the option to vote someone off leadership brings ALLOT of possible problems really and although i agree there needs to be a way to get rid of inactive/abusive Guild Leaders i dont think Voting them off will be the best awnser.

Abusive leader? Just leave. Seriously if there is alot of you it would not take long to rebuild the guild’s earned perks. Or talk to some of the smaller guild’s. GW2 is especially rife with smaller guilds happy to house people short term or long term. Hell with an influx of people some of those guilds could easily be the home you always wanted.

Inactive leader? By all means a month of inactivity should auto punt them and create a vote where members just click a checkmark beside the officer that they feel warrents the leader status. Simple, straightforward, automatic.

Siphaed.9235:

Mkalafut.1273:

No.

I created a gaming community over 10 years ago on various games. We ended up mostly playing GW1 and WoW. We quit WoW shortly after Firelands (2nd major content update in Cataclysm expansion) and during that time they added a feature like this.

When we quit the game as a guild, there was an understanding that those who remained who do so just for the guild perks (I wasn’t going to kick everyone who had gotten max rep with the guild so they’d have to start over) and that the guild was never going to be playing it again.

What’d they do? They added a feature to usurp guild leadership in the event that the guild leader is inactive too long. So now I had to go back and kick everyone because I wasn’t going to let someone take over what I had built and use it for their own means. If a guild leader decides to quit and doesn’t tell anybody, I realize that sucks – but there are plenty of other guilds you can join with active leaders without stealing something from someone else.

If I was deployed to Iraq, for example, my guild would understand – but I’d come back with someone else leading my guild? And be lucky if I logged in still even a member of that guild? No thanks. If there is a tyrannical leader, you have the freedom to shove it in his face and leave. Let his guild die with his poor attitude.

What nerve and GULL do you have?! All I hear is “I, I, I, I, I” in your entire thing. Well guess what…a guild is NOT A GUILD OF ONE! Community built guilds created prior to the game’s launch take a lot of people to make. Our current officers did wonders from making recruitment Youtube videos to designing the website, and even set up of the VOIP server. Oh, and you think all that comes cheap? Every month guild members donated through our website prior to launch so that we’d have funds for such things.

Also, there was no “we” in this situation of him quitting . If you’d bother to read the original post, our guild leader ABANDONED US: no words, no contact, no nothing. We’ve tried reaching him by every means he’s provided both in-game and out, but to no advancement. So it’s nothing like your example of your entire guild deciding to split.

P.S. Guilds aren’t there to server the leader, as your tone so puts it. They’re there to bring together like-minded players to enjoy the game and build a bonding friendship throughout the time. Guild leaders are there to SERVE THE GUILD through leadership.

P.P.S. To kick everyone out of a guild and delete/disband it just because some people want to continue on where you give up…well that’s just as bad as a guild leader stealing everything from a bank and splitting/leaving….it’s just demonically selfish.

So find another guild. I don’t need a chump like you to judge me or how I run my guild (which has been around almost a decade – and no, I am not tyrannical and I know it’s not all about me) and I’m not going to bother to address the rest of your post because judging by your reaction I gauge your age to be around 12. Good luck in your search for a new guild.

You know nothing about me, so call me selfish or an a—hole all you want, it really won’t affect me. Read the post below. I deleted my long post I had for you. Even if I had left it up I doubt you would have read it more than a sentence before you questioned my morals and raged some more.

Runiir.6425:

Inactive leader? By all means a month of inactivity should auto punt them and create a vote where members just click a checkmark beside the officer that they feel warrents the leader status. Simple, straightforward, automatic.

You’re a guild leader in the national guard, you were in Hurricane Sandy and no longer have a home, you were struck with an illness and hospitalized, you’ve lead an amazing guild for years and years and built it from the ground up with hard work and dedication.

You’ve been pulled away because of one of the situations in the first paragraph and return to find that the guild is no longer yours and all that work you did is now gone and you have nothing to show for it except for someone you never knew is in charge of what you made.

I think you see where I’m going with this. If anything is put in to automatically revoke a guild leader his or her guild, it would cause outrage. It’s unreasonable to request such a feature that would automatically boot a leader from their position because of extreme circumstances.

Granted, s—- does happen and guild leaders do sometimes bail, but I’ve only ever seen that happen twice in my entire gaming career (a long time). That’s a minority of the cases though, and while the OP was unlucky enough to get caught up in it, it’s not the norm – and would only punish legitimate guild leaders that lost their home to a natural disaster, got sick and had to be inactive for a while, etc…

I hope you see my point here and why any feature like this is only punishing to fair, decent people who simply had bad luck. If your guild leader up and left for no reason either something happened in real life beyond his or her control, or they weren’t fit to run a guild in the first place and you’re now better off and can find a new place to call home in the gaming world.

Either way the best option is simply wait it out and if time passes long enough to where nothing is being done, you need to realize it’s time to move on.

Mkalafut.1273:

Runiir.6425:

Inactive leader? By all means a month of inactivity should auto punt them and create a vote where members just click a checkmark beside the officer that they feel warrents the leader status. Simple, straightforward, automatic.

You’re a guild leader in the national guard, you were in Hurricane Sandy and no longer have a home, you were struck with an illness and hospitalized, you’ve lead an amazing guild for years and years and built it from the ground up with hard work and dedication.

You’ve been pulled away because of one of the situations in the first paragraph and return to find that the guild is no longer yours and all that work you did is now gone and you have nothing to show for it except for someone you never knew is in charge of what you made.

I think you see where I’m going with this. If anything is put in to automatically revoke a guild leader his or her guild, it would cause outrage. It’s unreasonable to request such a feature that would automatically boot a leader from their position because of extreme circumstances.

Granted, s—- does happen and guild leaders do sometimes bail, but I’ve only ever seen that happen twice in my entire gaming career (a long time). That’s a minority of the cases though, and while the OP was unlucky enough to get caught up in it, it’s not the norm – and would only punish legitimate guild leaders that lost their home to a natural disaster, got sick and had to be inactive for a while, etc…

I hope you see my point here and why any feature like this is only punishing to fair, decent people who simply had bad luck. If your guild leader up and left for no reason either something happened in real life beyond his or her control, or they weren’t fit to run a guild in the first place and you’re now better off and can find a new place to call home in the gaming world.

Either way the best option is simply wait it out and if time passes long enough to where nothing is being done, you need to realize it’s time to move on.

Guild leader means you are there to LEAD your people. If you can’t lead, then step down and move aside for someone who CAN be there.

Also, if you have lead your people properly, the only officers you have are people you can trust, therefore it is someone who, barring you have a HUGE lapse of judgement, have officers who upon your return will promote you again to leadership or, you will return to the guild as an officer and get to know where people are at.

Sorry but I’ve lead many good guilds and even a few great ones (several continue to this day in the game’s they were created for as I tend to create guilds for an RP purpose that is singular for a given game). As a guild leader the first thing you need to do is check your ego at the door. Your guild doesn’t exist for your whims or your wants, it exists because of the community you form under it’s banner. You gather like minded people, or people who form a family of sorts that is happy to be together and have fun together. I see far too many “leaders” (put in quotes as you obviously aren’t true leaders) that are selfish in the extreme and believe they are the reason for everything the guild has done, reality check: you aren’t. The guild exists and continues because of the people, not the because of any one individual.

I’ve left games and passed leadership onto who the guild wanted more than once because of RL issues, every time I returned they handed me back the position without me saying a word simply because everyone respected one another and recognized how much of my personal time I sacrificed for everyone else (hint, the guild leader should NOT be the first person with a legendary weapon…it screams of personal greed and how you view the guild). Actually talk to people and learn about them, and your officers will back you up. Spend no time with people, hardly talk, or allow yourself to get caught up in a click (something that larger guilds inevitably begin forming, and something a leader should never allow themselves to form around themself) and yeah then you will return and hardly know anything. Actuallys pend time doing what you should as a leader and when you come back the only things that will have changed is new faces, new alts, and changes to the game people will happily catch you up on.

A leader should know that when bad times come, his people will ensure the guild survives and continues, even removing them from the leadership position if need be to ensure the guild continues to thrive. When you are able to come back, they should welcome you easily if you were true to them. If you were a bit of a jerk, well then you deserve a cold reception.

Note the “you” in all of this is the theoretical individual in question, no personal meaning at all is intended.

Adine.2184:

No . A mutiny should never be something that can be put to a vote .

Agreed. If they were the leader I’m sure they wouldn’t be begging for tools to usurp their position. If they have a crappy guild leader there’s no reason for them to stay in that guild either. But it should not be ArenaNet’s job to decide for everybody.

Runiir.6425:

Guild leader means you are there to LEAD your people. If you can’t lead, then step down and move aside for someone who CAN be there.

Also, if you have lead your people properly, the only officers you have are people you can trust, therefore it is someone who, barring you have a HUGE lapse of judgement, have officers who upon your return will promote you again to leadership or, you will return to the guild as an officer and get to know where people are at.

Sorry but I’ve lead many good guilds and even a few great ones (several continue to this day in the game’s they were created for as I tend to create guilds for an RP purpose that is singular for a given game). As a guild leader the first thing you need to do is check your ego at the door. Your guild doesn’t exist for your whims or your wants, it exists because of the community you form under it’s banner. You gather like minded people, or people who form a family of sorts that is happy to be together and have fun together. I see far too many “leaders” (put in quotes as you obviously aren’t true leaders) that are selfish in the extreme and believe they are the reason for everything the guild has done, reality check: you aren’t. The guild exists and continues because of the people, not the because of any one individual.

I’ve left games and passed leadership onto who the guild wanted more than once because of RL issues, every time I returned they handed me back the position without me saying a word simply because everyone respected one another and recognized how much of my personal time I sacrificed for everyone else (hint, the guild leader should NOT be the first person with a legendary weapon…it screams of personal greed and how you view the guild). Actually talk to people and learn about them, and your officers will back you up. Spend no time with people, hardly talk, or allow yourself to get caught up in a click (something that larger guilds inevitably begin forming, and something a leader should never allow themselves to form around themself) and yeah then you will return and hardly know anything. Actuallys pend time doing what you should as a leader and when you come back the only things that will have changed is new faces, new alts, and changes to the game people will happily catch you up on.

A leader should know that when bad times come, his people will ensure the guild survives and continues, even removing them from the leadership position if need be to ensure the guild continues to thrive. When you are able to come back, they should welcome you easily if you were true to them. If you were a bit of a jerk, well then you deserve a cold reception.

Note the “you” in all of this is the theoretical individual in question, no personal meaning at all is intended.

Nothing that does what you and OP are suggesting should be automated. Not every guild should suffer to s—-ty automatic mechanics because there are others who haven’t a clue on how to properly lead a guild.

It’s also not your place (or anyone’s) to decide how a guild leader leads or handles their own guild. If they want to do a crap job they can suffer and lose their members, but it should not be up to Anet to put in something that revokes their position.

People can think for themselves and move to other guilds if their situation is that bad. I apologize but when you started the lecture about how to lead a guild I stopped reading. I didn’t come here for “how to run a guild” advice, I came here to say that this is a bad idea and people can fix their situation themselves.

I realize now that anything I say will not matter to you or OP since you are set in your ways and obviously had a bad experience, but if you honestly think that someone becoming homeless from Hurricane Sandy is suddenly “NOT CAPABLE of leading their guild” (and thus would lose his guild after he’s homeless for x days to be automatically removed from leader) there are more issues here than I originally realized.

Not to mention, once again, that it’s not up to anybody but the guild leader how they run their guild. If you want to have a say in how a guild is ran, make your own or become an officer of one, but it’s not up to you or ArenaNet to decide how people run their guilds that they made.

Guilds are communities, yes. But at the end of the day the guild has 1 leader (or however many some guilds have) but if you aren’t one and you don’t like what’s going on, request change. If nothing is done (or the Gleader quit the game randomly) then suck it up and find a new guild. It’s a no-brainer.

Whether you like that or not is really up to you to work out for yourself, but people have lives outside of a game and if someone wants to run a guild, work a full time job, and manage a family (example), then you gotta either suck it up or find another guild.

But the problem is when a Guild leader in a highly successful guild (with all upgrades and so on, and very respected by the games community, decides to stop playing all of a sudden.
And if is decides to not step down we would have this highly successful guild that people most likely would not want to leave that can’t do anything at all, even if the leader is offline for several months.

There need to be a fail-safe in situations like that.

Actually Mkalafut, you are the one set in your ways if you stopped reading. Also if you stopped reading you would note, I’ve never had a bad experience. Way to assume, next time read it all before responding.

Once again, if your officers are unable to lead in your absence, then get new officers. The entire point of them is so they can lead and take some of the burden from the leader, or outright lead in the guild leader’s absense.

Think ejecting them is too harsh? Then auto place them to co-leader (currently you can have multiple leader level individuals that also are inable to demote other leaders, only a leader can demote themself). Thus you never lose your “oh so precious” rank. Other games I’ve been in would demote a guild leader to officer status and promote a random officer if the guild leader did not log in for 30 days. Seriously, it’s not a huge deal, if you aren’t there to lead and do what is expected of the position you shouldn’t be there. At the end of the day IT IS A GAME. It should not be a huge depressing thing to find out you aren’t guild leader anymore when you get back from whatever RL event took you from the game.

Runiir.6425:

Actually Mkalafut, you are the one set in your ways if you stopped reading. Also if you stopped reading you would note, I’ve never had a bad experience. Way to assume, next time read it all before responding.

Once again, if your officers are unable to lead in your absence, then get new officers. The entire point of them is so they can lead and take some of the burden from the leader, or outright lead in the guild leader’s absense.

Think ejecting them is too harsh? Then auto place them to co-leader (currently you can have multiple leader level individuals that also are inable to demote other leaders, only a leader can demote themself). Thus you never lose your “oh so precious” rank. Other games I’ve been in would demote a guild leader to officer status and promote a random officer if the guild leader did not log in for 30 days. Seriously, it’s not a huge deal, if you aren’t there to lead and do what is expected of the position you shouldn’t be there. At the end of the day IT IS A GAME. It should not be a huge depressing thing to find out you aren’t guild leader anymore when you get back from whatever RL event took you from the game.

I’m not sure if you are directing that at me or what but I don’t have any problems mentioned in this thread within my guild.

Once again, if you have a problem with a guild – leave it. If the guild leader is an egotystical tool who has a superiority complex and rules with an iron fist, leave. It’s not up to anybody but the guild leader to decide how things are run within the guild they created.

S—- does happen and yes I realize some good guilds do lose a leader every now and then. Rebuild the guild with the active members and move on under a new name. Sooner or later word will get around that the guild rebuilt.

And you’re right. At the end of the day it is a game. It comes second to real life, and if a leader has other priorities then tough luck I guess. If you are really this worried about your guild leader packing up and leaving you to dry, do yourself a favor and make your own guild sooner rather than later.

Crisis overted.

Edit: I log in every day. Myself as GM, as well as my officers, leadership and members are active and online daily. I am speaking objectively here, not personally. As in, even if they enact this sytem it wouldn’t matter to me since I’m on daily. However there still is a problem with Anet regulating guilds this way.

Again, I am not an idiot. S—- happens and good guilds sometimes are left leaderless for God knows why, but you know what? It’s a game, life moves on. Remake the guild with the active people and run it your own way and you’ll never have to wonder whether or not your leadership will leave unexpectedly.

“Remake the guild with the active people and go about your lives.”
So it would be worse for someone that has left the game to lose their position as a leader of a guild than it would be for a whole guild to rebuild all the reputation and recognition in a new guild?

Whole guild > Guild leader.

lordkrall.7241:

So it would be worse for someone that has left the game to lose their position as a leader of a guild than it would be for a whole guild to rebuild all the reputation and recognition in a new guild?

Whole guild > Guild leader.

I’m not saying that at all. When did I say that? It’s an unfortunate thing to have a Gleader unexpectly and randomly leave for no reason. I’ve seen it happen to many guilds before.

I’m simply saying it’s not up to you to decide how anybody runs their own guild. As a guild leader, I think very little of those who leave and abandon their guilds especially with no reason or even so much as a notice, but you know something? That’s not your business or mine or ArenaNets. If that’s how that particular individual wants to run the guild THEY made, then that’s their perogative not yours. If that’s an issue and if you are worried about that in your guild then it’s probably a good time to find a new one or make your own.

Don’t put words in my mouth. Thanks.

lordkrall.7241:

Whole guild > Guild leader.

Also, just saying, there wouldn’t even be a “whole guild” if that “guild leader” didn’t make the guild first. He or she created it, he or she can do with it what they wish. Nowhere in the TOS agreement for GW2 does it say Guild Leaders need to be fair or run their guild a certain way.

Mkalafut.1273:

I’m not saying that at all. When did I say that? I’m simply saying it’s not up to you to decide how anybody runs their own guild. And if that’s an issue and if you are worried about that in your guild then it’s probably a good time to find a new one or make your own.

Don’t put words in my mouth. Thanks.

But it is exactly what you are saying.

You are saying we should not have a system where someone that has left the game gets removed from a position after a certain time of inactivity. Which would make the situation I showed very possible.

It did happen in Lord of the Rings Online for me.
Was in one of the oldest and most recognized kins on the server. And suddenly the leader (and his second) stops logging in at all.

At that time we had ONE officer that was active. And it took quite some time (I believe 3 months) for the game to change the leader to the second leader (and then 1 more month (she stopped playing after him) for her to lose it and give it to the Officer.

During that time we were very limited about what we could do, seeing as that one officer could not be online at all times and we could not promote more since we did not have a leader.

That means we where crippled for 4 MONTHS and thanks to this system we finally managed to get the kin “back”.

With the system you talk about we would NEVER have gotten the kin back.

lordkrall.7241:

Mkalafut.1273:

I’m not saying that at all. When did I say that? I’m simply saying it’s not up to you to decide how anybody runs their own guild. And if that’s an issue and if you are worried about that in your guild then it’s probably a good time to find a new one or make your own.

Don’t put words in my mouth. Thanks.

But it is exactly what you are saying.

You are saying we should not have a system where someone that has left the game gets removed from a position after a certain time of inactivity. Which would make the situation I showed very possible.

It did happen in Lord of the Rings Online for me.
Was in one of the oldest and most recognized kins on the server. And suddenly the leader (and his second) stops logging in at all.

At that time we had ONE officer that was active. And it took quite some time (I believe 3 months) for the game to change the leader to the second leader (and then 1 more month (she stopped playing after him) for her to lose it and give it to the Officer.

During that time we were very limited about what we could do, seeing as that one officer could not be online at all times and we could not promote more since we did not have a leader.

That means we where crippled for 4 MONTHS and thanks to this system we finally managed to get the kin “back”.

With the system you talk about we would NEVER have gotten the kin back.

No it is not what I am saying.

You could have gotten it back any time, and why you waited for 4 months is your own personal choice. The leader of your guild in LOTRO made the guild and has the right to do with it what he wants. It’s a crap situation when something like that happens but ultimately it’s not in your control anyway.

I’m not saying I’m for that behavior – because I’m not. I’m simply saying, once again, that crap happens and it sucks but you need to be able to move on if it does. It’s not up to you or Anet to tell a Guild Leader what to do with the guild they created. If you want to dictate how a guild is managed, you need to make your own because aside from that you will have no control over what someone on the other side of the game does with their life and their guild.

Whether or not it was (is) the best on that given server doesn’t mean anything to me. If the leader of the best guild in the world decided to quit the game and say screw it – he’d be within his right. It’d suck but you know what? It’s his guild – he can do that if he wants.

I don’t know why you feel entitled to run something that you didn’t create. If a guild leader decides to quit it’s up to them to do it gracefully or not. Most would hope that they do it properly and either hand it off (their choice) or just flat out leave (another one of their choices).

You don’t get to choose because you didn’t make the guild. Hard fact, but it’s the truth. .

So, all those upgrades made with influence that the MEMBERS have gained (or even payed for in some cases) does not matter in anyway what so ever?
Because it is his guild?

Lets say ArenaNet decides to remove all of your armor and weapons. Would just still say that its cool because it is their game?

lordkrall.7241:

So, all those upgrades made with influence that the MEMBERS have gained (or even payed for in some cases) does not matter in anyway what so ever?
Because it is his guild?

Lets say ArenaNet decides to remove all of your armor and weapons. Would just still say that its cool because it is their game?

I’d be pissed. Just like OP is pissed his guild leader left. Read the TOS – Anet can revoke your crap at any time for any reason (or no reason at all). That is not the point of this thread.

But to answer your question: yes. Once again, and I am getting tired of repeating myself, it does suck that this does happen. But if a guild leader decides he’s done and wants to quit for however long, then it’s up to him to make arrangements or not.

Another reason I wouldn’t count on this ridiculous feature you are begging for is because it’s a subscription-less game. And they’ve openly said this game is friendly to be played along-side other games with the ability to return at any time. As in: if a guild leader wants to take a break, either adapt to the change or wait it out, but that will still be his guild if or when he returns.

If you don`t like the leader – leave guild, make your own in the end.

Of course.
I am simply using the same logic as you do.
“He made it so he have unlimited power and should never lose it”.

A guild is completely worthless without its members. The members are just as much if not more part of the guild than the actual creater and/or leader.

lordkrall.7241:

Of course.
A guild is completely worthless without its members. The members are just as much if not more part of the guild than the actual creater and/or leader.

I agree with you. My guild would not have lasted almost 10 years without its members. Again, that’s not what this thread is about. And this whole time I’ve never disagreed with your point in the quoted post.

I’d say members are more important because you can’t have a functioning guild without them. That doesn’t change the fact that it’s the leader’s guild that they made and others joined.

As the post above me says, and as I’ve said, if you have doubts about your leader, have a bad leader in general, or want things to be done a certain way, make your own guild and avoid problems that way.

I’d also invite you to read my edit about the game being subscription-less in my previous post.

I’m heading to bed and will likely not return to this thread. I’ve said what I needed to say and I’m tired of repeating myself. Again I wouldn’t hold your breath for a feature like this to be introduced, but good luck in your guild endeavours (@everyone who is having problems and wants this feature).

I’d like to point out that a guild is NOT the guild leader’s to do with as he so fits. He may be lead because we’d made a somewhat unanimous decision for him to lead for one reason or another; but NOT own all rights and every inch of the guild WE THE MEMBERS built.

To give situational information: The guild members polled together 100 gold for a Commander Seal for said abandoning-leader. Each of us that got the collector’s edition, the completed our personal stories (on multiple characters), captured keeps, and so on dedicated OUR Influence to this guild. The guild symbol for our banner was vote-picked, the website designed by a different officer, the recruitment video by another, and yet another hosts our VOIP client. The current leader is only leader because the original leader had some real life issues and was courteous enough to inform us and voluntarily stand down.

But, I do see where some people would be upset if the voting system could be enacted whenever and for whatever reason to give possibility of mutiny. I do then like the idea that someone else had that this kind of voting system would only be enable if the current guild leader is MIA/hasn’t logged in for a month. This would ensure fairness that he could be given ample opportunity to contact the guild (from outside the game means or inside), as well as give fairness to the members to make a new leader if they so choose.

Siphaed.9235:

I’d like to point out that a guild is NOT the guild leader’s to do with as he so fits. He may be lead because we’d made a somewhat unanimous decision for him to lead for one reason or another; but NOT own all rights and every inch of the guild WE THE MEMBERS built.

To give situational information: The guild members polled together 100 gold for a Commander Seal for said abandoning-leader. Each of us that got the collector’s edition, the completed our personal stories (on multiple characters), captured keeps, and so on dedicated OUR Influence to this guild. The guild symbol for our banner was vote-picked, the website designed by a different officer, the recruitment video by another, and yet another hosts our VOIP client. The current leader is only leader because the original leader had some real life issues and was courteous enough to inform us and voluntarily stand down.

But, I do see where some people would be upset if the voting system could be enacted whenever and for whatever reason to give possibility of mutiny. I do then like the idea that someone else had that this kind of voting system would only be enable if the current guild leader is MIA/hasn’t logged in for a month. This would ensure fairness that he could be given ample opportunity to contact the guild (from outside the game means or inside), as well as give fairness to the members to make a new leader if they so choose.

There should be no systems in place to automatically take a guild away from the creator. Members are the backbone of any semi-decent guild or better, but that doesn’t make the guild theirs.

A guild leader is not in his or her place because he or she was voted in. That person decided to make a guild that you decided to join. Plain and simple. Rationalize it any way you’d like but at the end of the day there are no rules within the game to force guild leaders to behave a certain way. And that’s what you guys are trying to suggest here – which is wrong.

Some guild leaders are not fit to run a guild, some are kittens, some will abandon, but the majority will not. For that reason, coupled with the tons of other valid reasons I mentioned above (not to mention the fact that Anet openly suggested to play this game along with other games and that it’s a sub-fee less game) are why you will not see this feature implemented in the game.

Because it doesn’t make sense, it’s wrong, and it’s a waste of man hours to implement because a few bad apples. If your guild leader abandons you you have 2 choices. Wait it out, or find another guild / make your own. We don’t need ArenaNet regulating how guild leaders run what they created.

Don’t straw man me. Don’t read between the lines, don’t assume anything based off of my post because I bet you didn’t read any of mine before posting. But understand this system is wrong and will never be seen in this game. Not everyone is meant for guild leading and some can’t take it or don’t want to do it anymore because of whatever reason, but that doesn’t mean you get to shove a system like this down the throats of everybody else.

I’ll put a tl;dr for you since I can almost guarentee you didn’t read any of my previous posts.

td;dr – It’s not up to Anet to regulate how guild leaders run the guilds that they created. If you have a problem with a guild, find a new one – it’s simple. Anet has no place regulating how guilds are handled.

I totally agree with Siphaed, If a guild leader leaves a guild for some reason for a elongated period of time and if the members of the guild are in agreement that leadership must be changed there needs to be some fail safe system to get back leadership of the guild

Also,

…that a guild is NOT the guild leader’s to do with as he so fits. He may be lead because we’d made a somewhat unanimous decision for him to lead for one reason or another; but NOT own all rights and every inch of the guild WE THE MEMBERS built.
.

is completely false. You may not like to think so, but you are wrong here. If someone created a guild they can do whatever they wanted to it. It’s theirs. It was your choice to join a guild, nobody forced you and the harsh reality is that if a tool was in charge and they did something similar to what’s mentioned in the OP there is nothing you can do about it except find a new guild or stay in that one (which wouldn’t make sense).

Rooster.8029:

I totally agree with Siphaed, If a guild leader leaves a guild for some reason for a elongated period of time and if the members of the guild are in agreement that leadership must be changed there needs to be some fail safe system to get back leadership of the guild

Except, once again, it’s a free to play game. And once again, real life happens. I know that teenagers in high school don’t understand that there is more to life than an MMO, but take again my Hurricane Sandy example. There are still people homeless from that storm and you’re saying that because they lost their home and their life for the time being that they are unfit to run a guild?

If a guild leader has an extended absence it’s up to the members to decide what to do – either wait or move on. It is not up to you or Anet to decide who takes over the guild that this individual created.

The problem with threads like this is there’s no logic and everyone puts their “oh s—-!” hats on and wonders what it’d be like if their guild had a similar situation. Look at the situation from all points of view and make a rational decision.

If you start using logic you’ll realize that a system like this one being suggested couldn’t work in a game like Guild Wars 2 and it is wrong to even suggest it. If you want to decide how a guild is run, make one yourself.

Perhaps the mods ought to lock this thread, due to it becoming the focus of Mkalafut’s excessive trolling.

I do agree with the OP though, perhaps if guilds could actually set whether the guild is democracy based or authoritarian. If set to democratic, members can vote. If set to authoritarian, the leader is in full control and the members can do squat.

There are lots of situations in which a voting system can be abused:

1. Two lieutenants recruit 20 people each to a 25-person guild, hold a vote, and oust the leader (who had delegated recruiting duties).
2. The founder becomes unavailable due to RL and is voted out.
3. A guild is founded by friends. There’s a disagreement about how to handle a disruptive member. Tempers flare, everyone takes sides. One faction has 50%+1 votes and removes everyone who disagrees.

So let’s go back to the issues that this is meant to address:

• GL become inactive.
• GL becomes a kittenish kitten. [sic]

The first one is easy to address without voting: make sure your guild doesn’t depend on any single person to function. Have at least 2-3 people with rights to administer everything in the guild (except for the top rank). (For large guilds, you might want 5-10 executives and more than one layer of leadership.)

The second is impossible to address cleanly with technology because it’s fundamentally a social issue — it is best address by people. Sometimes, there’s nothing to be done: the leader can’t see how their behavior had changed (or the rest of the guild can’t see the brilliance of the leader’s vision). Sometimes there nothing to be done except leave and start over. That sucks, but gaming life, like RL, is sometimes messy.

I believe everyone here is right in some way.

The OP, while clearly pissed off, does make a decent argument for some way of a guild saving themselves from a leader. I would certainly disagree with giving every single member the option to vote, if they were to implement such a system, but perhaps Officers or anyone with what would be considered officer like responsibilities to call a vote as a group.

Others, including myself, make a very strong argument against such a system. Not only can a vote such as that be abused by others searching for power but you also have the right to leave whenever, the guild is initially founded by one person.

I personally agree with no vote system. I am a guild leader and I fulfill my duties to the best of my ability, time, and schedule. I’m sure there have been a few members much more active that have thought themselves more deserving of my rank simply cause their online more. A mutiny, as I would call this vote system, is a two way street. If there is a vote system in place to usurp a leader well the leader needs a way to fight back.

Now when it comes to dead guilds and the like yes, I can very well understand your plight and how you’d want to save everyone and everything about your guild. During the first couple months my guild had to suffer being bugged, like all the others, and we lost countless upgrades, influence, and members to the easy server transfers. Sadly, that’s something every game deals.

My only question about the voting system, if it were to be added, would be how do you handle replacing the leader? Does the vote consist of two stages? Remove leader followed by nominating other members? What happens when guilds become split between a few people? You could very well end up destroying your guild that way and witness groups leaving to start their own guilds under the leadership of the man or woman they had chosen.

In the end, when faced with a guild that’s dead or slowly getting there you should do one of two things. The first would be to attempt at continuing as a guild in your current home with whatever authority is left. The second, if there is no one with the rank to invite or upgrade, would be to move on. Take whoever is left and willing to join you in a new home with a leader that is clear of mind and enjoys the game.

Arcanorum Ignis.9218:

Perhaps the mods ought to lock this thread, due to it becoming the focus of Mkalafut’s excessive trolling.

It´s not necessary, just ignore. Trolls get their power from everyone who gives them a little attention. Maybe Freud explains that… Oops I think i give some.

Anyways. I spend more than 17000 points in two guilds. Well I have a lot of participation on them (One of them spend 48000 points). So if I build the guild I´m on I think that I need to at least have the chance to demote a away GL and choose another to go.

Mkalafut.1273:

The problem with threads like this is there’s no logic and everyone puts their “oh s—-!” hats on and wonders what it’d be like if their guild had a similar situation. Look at the situation from all points of view and make a rational decision.

If you start using logic you’ll realize that a system like this one being suggested couldn’t work in a game like Guild Wars 2 and it is wrong to even suggest it. If you want to decide how a guild is run, make one yourself.

It’s funny how they call you a troll for speaking logically against them. I will give a personal example of exactly the kind of situation something like a vote system would cause.

During my LOTRO days I was an officer in the best guild on our server. Our guild leader was an active MP in the area currently deployed in Iraq, so our leaders right hand was in charge for months.

Now before joining this guild had been solely PvP but had interests in the limited endgame available. So by chance one day the leaders of my previous guild decided to merge our guild into theirs to assist with those goals. We wanted PvP and they needed our endgame PvE experience.

Myself and my old guild leader spent months up to the early morning hours helping get a DKP system in place, figuring out strategies and needed gear, and of course the many trial and error runs. We were successful though, as a guild. We progressed quickly through the dungeons with myself as raid leader most nights and minus the who gets what loot drama it was a lot of fun.

Well now our leader comes back stateside and wants to come along the runs, who wouldn’t? So we now have a full active guild again with him home and he’s coming along learning all the new stuff. Low and behold though once he gets his gear he wants to take over leading the raids against the final two bosses and says we can continue leading what is essentially trash mob runs.

Needless to say we were pissed, and as officers we made it known we were pissed. Many times we tried to discuss a fair option or come to a compromise but he wouldn’t have any of it because he was the leader and it was his guild. So at this point I waited for him to screw up, I wanted a reason to make him look bad after stealing what my friends and I had worked so hard to achieve for “his” guild.

I caught him spying, essentially what server transfers created for WvW here, and I blew his cover for the other side letting them know who he was on that toon. As you can imagine I was demoted quickly and I stopped playing the game for over a year.

If there had been a voting system to usurp power I would have used it out of spite more then anything and I believe that to be the greatest cause for concern with this idea. I’m not the same person I was then, I’ve become much more laid back after seeing how pissed off I could get over someone half way across the country, who by the way ended up destroying his own guild anyway. Now I run my own guild here with happy members that just want to enjoy themselves and that’s all I ask of them, it’s just a game.

There should never be a system like this in a game, it’s a social aspect that everyone has the ability to remove themselves from and that’s the only real way to handle it.

Raine Akrune.8416:

Mkalafut.1273:

The problem with threads like this is there’s no logic and everyone puts their “oh s—-!” hats on and wonders what it’d be like if their guild had a similar situation. Look at the situation from all points of view and make a rational decision.

If you start using logic you’ll realize that a system like this one being suggested couldn’t work in a game like Guild Wars 2 and it is wrong to even suggest it. If you want to decide how a guild is run, make one yourself.

It’s funny how they call you a troll for speaking logically against them. I will give a personal example of exactly the kind of situation something like a vote system would cause.

During my LOTRO days I was an officer in the best guild on our server. Our guild leader was an active MP in the area currently deployed in Iraq, so our leaders right hand was in charge for months.

Now before joining this guild had been solely PvP but had interests in the limited endgame available. So by chance one day the leaders of my previous guild decided to merge our guild into theirs to assist with those goals. We wanted PvP and they needed our endgame PvE experience.

Myself and my old guild leader spent months up to the early morning hours helping get a DKP system in place, figuring out strategies and needed gear, and of course the many trial and error runs. We were successful though, as a guild. We progressed quickly through the dungeons with myself as raid leader most nights and minus the who gets what loot drama it was a lot of fun.

Well now our leader comes back stateside and wants to come along the runs, who wouldn’t? So we now have a full active guild again with him home and he’s coming along learning all the new stuff. Low and behold though once he gets his gear he wants to take over leading the raids against the final two bosses and says we can continue leading what is essentially trash mob runs.

Needless to say we were pissed, and as officers we made it known we were pissed. Many times we tried to discuss a fair option or come to a compromise but he wouldn’t have any of it because he was the leader and it was his guild. So at this point I waited for him to screw up, I wanted a reason to make him look bad after stealing what my friends and I had worked so hard to achieve for “his” guild.

I caught him spying, essentially what server transfers created for WvW here, and I blew his cover for the other side letting them know who he was on that toon. As you can imagine I was demoted quickly and I stopped playing the game for over a year.

If there had been a voting system to usurp power I would have used it out of spite more then anything and I believe that to be the greatest cause for concern with this idea. I’m not the same person I was then, I’ve become much more laid back after seeing how pissed off I could get over someone half way across the country, who by the way ended up destroying his own guild anyway. Now I run my own guild here with happy members that just want to enjoy themselves and that’s all I ask of them, it’s just a game.

There should never be a system like this in a game, it’s a social aspect that everyone has the ability to remove themselves from and that’s the only real way to handle it.

Thank you for your post and I’m glad I saw that right after editing my post before I left this thread forever. I do appreciate that you actually read my posts and saw that they are logical and objective and not personal or biased in any way.

I’m also glad that you pointed out one of the negatives of a system like this and the s—-storm that would ensue if there was something like this in place. Maybe since you haven’t been deemed a troll yet people might actually listen to you.

Thanks again for your post and I’m sorry to hear that that happened in the guild. I know what it’s like to see hard work get tossed away in an instant. Not a fun experience.

lordkrall.7241:

Whole guild > Guild leader.

Also, just saying, there wouldn’t even be a “whole guild” if that “guild leader” didn’t make the guild first. He or she created it, he or she can do with it what they wish. Nowhere in the TOS agreement for GW2 does it say Guild Leaders need to be fair or run their guild a certain way.[/quote]

Imagine if the people working in cubicles could just call a vote against their CEO? Yea, we’re tired of you so your outta here. Lol

Raine Akrune.8416:

lordkrall.7241:

Whole guild > Guild leader.

Also, just saying, there wouldn’t even be a “whole guild” if that “guild leader” didn’t make the guild first. He or she created it, he or she can do with it what they wish. Nowhere in the TOS agreement for GW2 does it say Guild Leaders need to be fair or run their guild a certain way.

Imagine if the people working in cubicles could just call a vote against their CEO? Yea, we’re tired of you so your outta here. Lol

Another point I made. Careful now, you’re venturing into dangerous territory. Take your logic elsewhere!

Pleasure chatting with you Mkalafut! /fleeing
=)

Raine Akrune.8416:

Pleasure chatting with you Mkalafut! /fleeing
=)

You too. I’m out of this thread because no doubt you and I will both be marked as trolls and nothing we say will matter to the narrow-minded in this thread. I don’t have any worries here because I log on every day anyway, but also Anet isn’t going to mess around with guilds this way and I’m confidant a feature like this that is so absurd won’t see the light of day in game.

Raine Akrune.8416:

It’s funny how they call you a troll for speaking logically against them. I will give a personal example of exactly the kind of situation something like a vote system would cause.

During my LOTRO days I was an officer in the best guild on our server. Our guild leader was an active MP in the area currently deployed in Iraq, so our leaders right hand was in charge for months.

Now before joining this guild had been solely PvP but had interests in the limited endgame available. So by chance one day the leaders of my previous guild decided to merge our guild into theirs to assist with those goals. We wanted PvP and they needed our endgame PvE experience.

Myself and my old guild leader spent months up to the early morning hours helping get a DKP system in place, figuring out strategies and needed gear, and of course the many trial and error runs. We were successful though, as a guild. We progressed quickly through the dungeons with myself as raid leader most nights and minus the who gets what loot drama it was a lot of fun.

Well now our leader comes back stateside and wants to come along the runs, who wouldn’t? So we now have a full active guild again with him home and he’s coming along learning all the new stuff. Low and behold though once he gets his gear he wants to take over leading the raids against the final two bosses and says we can continue leading what is essentially trash mob runs.

Needless to say we were pissed, and as officers we made it known we were pissed. Many times we tried to discuss a fair option or come to a compromise but he wouldn’t have any of it because he was the leader and it was his guild. So at this point I waited for him to screw up, I wanted a reason to make him look bad after stealing what my friends and I had worked so hard to achieve for “his” guild.

I caught him spying, essentially what server transfers created for WvW here, and I blew his cover for the other side letting them know who he was on that toon. As you can imagine I was demoted quickly and I stopped playing the game for over a year.

If there had been a voting system to usurp power I would have used it out of spite more then anything and I believe that to be the greatest cause for concern with this idea. I’m not the same person I was then, I’ve become much more laid back after seeing how pissed off I could get over someone half way across the country, who by the way ended up destroying his own guild anyway. Now I run my own guild here with happy members that just want to enjoy themselves and that’s all I ask of them, it’s just a game.

There should never be a system like this in a game, it’s a social aspect that everyone has the ability to remove themselves from and that’s the only real way to handle it.

Okay, you guys really need to stop on with the stories of a guild leader leaving because they said they would (your situation) or some hypothetical situation of Hurricane Sandy. This isn’t the case or reason I brought this suggestion at all. This is a guild leader with absolutely no contact in or out of the game for 2 straight months. NOTHING. Didn’t say they were leaving or anything at all.

Also, as you might have wanted to read my other posts, you’ll also see that this guild leader didn’t make anything at all. He was democratically voted in by us after the original guild leader stepped down due to real life issues; a guild leader who was honest with us and did the proper thing.

And yet again if you guys would read my other posts you’d notice that this guild was not just built by one guy person. This guild was built by several people dedicating their time and efforts to make a long lasting pre-launch guild that would continue on for a long time.

Finally, I’d like to point out that your determined argument of “always have the option of making a new guild” just shows a stance of a lack of care for a guild. We, as a guild, have a built a very nice niche community of like minded players who have made a name for themselves. That name is the banner in which we run under, where we place on keeps and castles alike. The Influence we have stockpiled, which is some 100k, is valued based on our guild’s accomplishments. To abandon all that is NOT an option as we care for these things, which you people seem to very easily dismiss.