Lock dungeon waypoints, during boss fights:
And what happens when it is a wipe? Would you make everyone start the dungeon over? Or reset the boss? Either option would make things difficult. A better solution might be to have a timer where you can only use a way point once every X minutes.
Sometimes bad things happen even to the most experienced groups. From the gist of your post, you come across a bit as stating everyone should be punished for something bad happening during a boss fight, and thus, perpetuate the consequences to the rest of the group.
Note, some of this is done for players to learn the encounter, and once they do learn it, there are fewer deaths. Players are not required to look up videos online to see how to beat something, when they want to learn it themselves. I think you would find there are far fewer instances of this happening as players become more seasoned in learning each dungeon.
If there’s a wipe, you unlock the waypoint and people walk back to the boss.
Punishment is a harsh word. A learning experience, perhaps? Something so that people sit down and think about the boss and how best to approach it.
I find it takes a lot of the epicness out of an encounter if you just run back continuously, until the boss is dead.
I come from a WoW background. One of the best part of those boss encounter was the near wipe. Boss down to 2% and only a few people up. Everyone else cheering them on. Those moments aren’t possible when the rest of the people are running back to hit the boss a few times, die, repeat.
Multiple times I’ve seen people (including myself) die from a boss, run back, die from the same thing. There’s no incentive to learn the amazing content ANET provides, if you can run back from every death. Hell, you even have time to repair.
With proper planning, there’s no boss in the game that couldn’t be downed by a party continuously running back. Running back is not a boss mechanic.
If there’s a wipe, you unlock the waypoint and people walk back to the boss.
Punishment is a harsh word. A learning experience, perhaps? Something so that people sit down and think about the boss and how best to approach it.
I find it takes a lot of the epicness out of an encounter if you just run back continuously, until the boss is dead.
I come from a WoW background. One of the best part of those boss encounter was the near wipe. Boss down to 2% and only a few people up. Everyone else cheering them on. Those moments aren’t possible when the rest of the people are running back to hit the boss a few times, die, repeat.
Multiple times I’ve seen people (including myself) die from a boss, run back, die from the same thing. There’s no incentive to learn the amazing content ANET provides, if you can run back from every death. Hell, you even have time to repair.
With proper planning, there’s no boss in the game that couldn’t be downed by a party continuously running back. Running back is not a boss mechanic.
yes but keep in mind the people not learning and respawn charging are already being punished with massive repair bills since evey dungoen has multiple bosses and to do that all the time would be insane money wasted let the players who learn the boss get rewarded for it and the ones who dont can learn to live with their huge repair bills i dont die and respawn all the time and i still spend a bit on repairs i cant imagin what they are paying so they already have incentive to not do that we dont need to force them that will just create unhappy players like the guy before me stated what happens when the pro guy who never dies gets bad luck (example i was doing ascolonian catacombs helping some friends through story king puts massive aoe easy to avoid yeah but he also ocassionally knocks back and i got unfortunatly knocked down into the aoe and died before i could use my thief tele to get out of it while downed) now your solution means i have to wait till we wipe or not participate because of my bad luck thats not fair imo
This is the whole point, the boss’ don’t have “tatics” like other games as you can’t really put tatics into a fight where eveyrones just running around. The dungeons are suppose to be fast paced action not oh you’re down too bad wait for 10-20 mins while we kill this boss because let’s face it, by the time you res someone defeated the boss will be over already as it takes forever plus getting attacked half the time doing it.
And i don’t agree with what you say, afew times on a boss i’ve had 4/5 players die those 4 release and then that one last player who is still keeping the boss from reseting is low on hp and i also was a WoW player, and i say the way anet have it atm is ALOT more fun then wow. Try doing everything in your power to stop yourself from getting hit 1 last time while the rest of your group runs back from the waypoint, it’s more thrilling then lying on the floor watching 2-3 people struggle to get the boss down his fianl 2%
Fast paced action is in the combat, not in the running back. Great, you’ve just run back and defeated a boss. What have you learned about that boss? What effort did you have to expend in defeating that boss?
As an example, let’s look at the last boss in Sorrows Embrace. You have to either get behind the wall, or be out from there. You also throw stuff at the boss. This fight is well tuned; it has good mechanics; and a reasonable learning curve. With the music, it’s quite the epic encounter.
However, the immersion into the fight, and intensity of dodging the fire is lost when you die and can run back. The reasonable difficulty is dropped to no difficulty. Most importantly, the entire down mechanic doesn’t mean crap. Why save a downed player, when they can just run back? Where’s my impetus to help my fellow player get back up? How is any PvE supposed to be difficult?
I’m not sure about you or anyone that you’ve played with, but once i do a boss and i die, i generally learn not to do that the next time round, but hey if you like wasting more money then what’s needed on boss’ because you simply can then don’t moan about it.
Okay so.. When you play wow and you pug a dungeon and some idiot doesn’t know what to do and he just sits there and gets killed within seconds (because alot of the boses can kill you in seconds if you don’t pay attention) what happens then? You all wipe and you all have the pay repair bills for one persons fault because then the rest have to 4man the rest of the fight. Atleast this way if that one person wants to keep dying over and over everytime the boss does a certain spell it’s only affecting him, he can release and run back and the rest of your group doesn’t have to pay anything more then you need to. But again i go back to what i was saying before, almost every person i have ever played with generally learns from their mistakes once they die, so yes people do learn.
As for helping out downed players, you still have every reason to help them out before they get defeated, their extra support or damage will be helpful instead of them spending 2-3 mins runing back to the boss, you also get exp from ressing your mates, more then you get from actually killing a mob i might add.
Just because someone can release and run back to a fight does not make that fight any less difficult, infact more so if you don’t want to pay sky high repair costs and it also means when someone dies you don’t have to carry them through a fight unlike wow so they get free xp, because even if they die they have to still run back and work for their part of the kill.
All in all, the way anet have set it up is alot better then wow
However, the immersion into the fight, and intensity of dodging the fire is lost when you die and can run back. The reasonable difficulty is dropped to no difficulty. Most importantly, the entire down mechanic doesn’t mean crap. Why save a downed player, when they can just run back? Where’s my impetus to help my fellow player get back up?
Exactly! I have encountered that thinking alot now in dungeons. Before the boss, “the team leader” says: you get downed, try to save yourself. If unsuccesful, res to the nearest waypoint and run back. When that gets repetitive, the battle doesn’t feel exciting or fun but quite annoying.
Oh btw the fights wouldn’t be very fast paced if 2 members died within the first min and the other 3 was left to try and kill the boss themselve (which would be alot longer then having all 5 members alive) nor would the dungeon be more fast paced if once those 2 members died you had to all die and wipe in order to have a shot at downing the boss because on wow the longest parts of a boss is the wiping parts, waiting for everyone to run back buffing up, that doesn’t sound very fast paced to me
However, the immersion into the fight, and intensity of dodging the fire is lost when you die and can run back. The reasonable difficulty is dropped to no difficulty. Most importantly, the entire down mechanic doesn’t mean crap. Why save a downed player, when they can just run back? Where’s my impetus to help my fellow player get back up?
Exactly! I have encountered that thinking alot now in dungeons. Before the boss, “the team leader” says: you get downed, try to save yourself. If unsuccesful, res to the nearest waypoint and run back. When that gets repetitive, the battle doesn’t feel exciting or fun but quite annoying.
Don’t do Exp with pugs then as this will commonly be the case, but when i play with my mates and we do a dungeon if they just stood there and watched me die in front of them while i was in downstate i’d not be too pleased with them, as would you. If you want to do the dungeons as they’re suppose to, then only do exp with friends, story doesn’t matter as they’re easy anyway
Oh btw the fights wouldn’t be very fast paced if 2 members died within the first min and the other 3 was left to try and kill the boss themselve (which would be alot longer then having all 5 members alive) nor would the dungeon be more fast paced if once those 2 members died you had to all die and wipe in order to have a shot at downing the boss because on wow the longest parts of a boss is the wiping parts, waiting for everyone to run back buffing up, that doesn’t sound very fast paced to me
GW2 doesn’t have the “buffing up” phase of a fight. You can pretty much pull as soon as you are back.
Dodging and staying alive is what makes a fight fun, and fast paced. ANET has avoided the rolls of sitting in front of a boss and making it angry; staring at a grid of player health; and mindlessly going through a rotation. Avoiding those rolls is what makes for a better game, and I applaud them for it.
They’ve also avoided long run back, by having a waypoint system. Which if they gave a waypoint to each bosses room, after they were downed, it would be even better.
A fight should be spent attacking a boss, avoiding its damage, and helping the other players.
There should be some content that is difficult on its own merits, and not because it’s cheap or broken. Holding a boss in combat while people run back should not be an option to kill a hard boss.
(edited by twiddlesticks.3791)
Twiddlesticks, I couldn’t agree more. I was very disappointed to see this was possible. It feels like a cheap tactic- luckily enough I have only encountered this in AC story. But yes, it is a sad excuse for a fight. I much rather lose over and over than win with the use of running back. It removes all sense of fun and challenge.
EDIT: I’d like to add- maybe not lock waypoints, but seal down the boss room somehow. This would allow the players to go and fix themselves if they don’t want to stick around and watch the fight unfold.
(edited by Hermod.2643)
Obviously you haven’t played the higher end dungeons where the closest waypoint is ridiculously placed 50 seconds apart w/o speed buff. Also, with dungeons that already work a player through sweat and dirt, walking an extra mile more than a few times is absurdly stupid, especially for a purely damage-built character.
Obviously you haven’t played the higher end dungeons where the closest waypoint is ridiculously placed 50 seconds apart w/o speed buff. Also, with dungeons that already work a player through sweat and dirt, walking an extra mile more than a few times is absurdly stupid, especially for a purely damage-built character.
yeah, I’d love to see the OP do subject alpha last stage after his suggestion made it live.
he also doesn’t seem to know that once enough players die at once the boss resets because he loses aggro.
I much rather lose over and over
with that change you will. wanna bet how fast you’ll be back here asking to roll it back?
Obviously you haven’t played the higher end dungeons where the closest waypoint is ridiculously placed 50 seconds apart w/o speed buff. Also, with dungeons that already work a player through sweat and dirt, walking an extra mile more than a few times is absurdly stupid, especially for a purely damage-built character.
yeah, I’d love to see the OP do subject alpha last stage after his suggestion made it live.
he also doesn’t seem to know that once enough players die at once the boss resets because he loses aggro.
I much rather lose over and over
with that change you will. wanna bet how fast you’ll be back here asking to roll it back?
I have played several games where bosses are almost impossible to beat. I’ve played 3 hours on a single boss before (if not more) several times. I’ve gotten annoyed out of my mind, but the feeling of accomplishment you get from defeating these bosses is just that much more rewarding. I’d rather have that, than being handed the victory on a silver platter. I play for a challenge, not to be given a participation medal.
Obviously you haven’t played the higher end dungeons where the closest waypoint is ridiculously placed 50 seconds apart w/o speed buff. Also, with dungeons that already work a player through sweat and dirt, walking an extra mile more than a few times is absurdly stupid, especially for a purely damage-built character.
yeah, I’d love to see the OP do subject alpha last stage after his suggestion made it live.
he also doesn’t seem to know that once enough players die at once the boss resets because he loses aggro.
I much rather lose over and over
with that change you will. wanna bet how fast you’ll be back here asking to roll it back?
6 years of WoW. Which stopped you from releasing your soul when you died during a boss fight. And only allowed you to release and run back, after the boss was reset or dead. Never did I complain about the very thing I am asking for.
I doubt anyone who’s asking for the change would ask for it to be changed back to what it is now.
Once/if it made it live, bosses could be balanced to a better state than what they are currently. As it stands, cheap tactics are allowed in boss fights, simply because you can run back and still kill the boss.
Obviously you haven’t played the higher end dungeons where the closest waypoint is ridiculously placed 50 seconds apart w/o speed buff. Also, with dungeons that already work a player through sweat and dirt, walking an extra mile more than a few times is absurdly stupid, especially for a purely damage-built character.
yeah, I’d love to see the OP do subject alpha last stage after his suggestion made it live.
he also doesn’t seem to know that once enough players die at once the boss resets because he loses aggro.
I much rather lose over and over
with that change you will. wanna bet how fast you’ll be back here asking to roll it back?
6 years of WoW. Which stopped you from releasing your soul when you died during a boss fight. And only allowed you to release and run back, after the boss was reset or dead. Never did I complain about the very thing I am asking for.
I doubt anyone who’s asking for the change would ask for it to be changed back to what it is now.
Once/if it made it live, bosses could be balanced to a better state than what they are currently. As it stands, cheap tactics are allowed in boss fights, simply because you can run back and still kill the boss.
First of all, I don’t give a single crap about your past wisdom in WoW, we’re discussing Gw2 related systems. Secondly, most of the dungeons in WoW cannot compare to the elaboration in the difficulty that exists in Gw2. So instead of using your wisdom you got from the previous game you played, how about actually strutting yourself to crucible of eternity of arah dungeons before making such a lackluster statement.
Obviously you haven’t played the higher end dungeons where the closest waypoint is ridiculously placed 50 seconds apart w/o speed buff. Also, with dungeons that already work a player through sweat and dirt, walking an extra mile more than a few times is absurdly stupid, especially for a purely damage-built character.
yeah, I’d love to see the OP do subject alpha last stage after his suggestion made it live.
he also doesn’t seem to know that once enough players die at once the boss resets because he loses aggro.
I much rather lose over and over
with that change you will. wanna bet how fast you’ll be back here asking to roll it back?
6 years of WoW. Which stopped you from releasing your soul when you died during a boss fight. And only allowed you to release and run back, after the boss was reset or dead. Never did I complain about the very thing I am asking for.
I doubt anyone who’s asking for the change would ask for it to be changed back to what it is now.
Once/if it made it live, bosses could be balanced to a better state than what they are currently. As it stands, cheap tactics are allowed in boss fights, simply because you can run back and still kill the boss.
First of all, I don’t give a single crap about your past wisdom in WoW, we’re discussing Gw2 related systems. Secondly, most of the dungeons in WoW cannot compare to the elaboration in the difficulty that exists in Gw2. So instead of using your wisdom you got from the previous game you played, how about actually strutting yourself to crucible of eternity of arah dungeons before making such a lackluster statement.
Not sure what made you type words that make you seem angry…
I pointed out WoW, simply because the two things I was comparing were apples to apples. 5 man dungeons, with bosses, that give loot. You go through the mechanics, you get your loot. Same thing, both games.
Now, if that fight is as hard you as make it sound. It’s doing exactly what I am asking for. Taking the waypoints out of the equation. I honestly haven’t done that boss. What’s wrong with eliminating waypoints from other boss fights?
Yeah. It pisses me off when I’m insulted for trying to PLAY and revive players when the enemies are not targetting me and they are not defeated, just downed, instead just focusing on the enemy and bringing glass cannon builds, and letting them dye and just damage with tactics until I get killed and revive again in the waypoint.
That’s no way of playing. Throwing corpses at the enemy is not my style.
Waypoints should be locked eithr until there’s a wipe, or while any nearby party member is in combat. Much like in GW1 dungeons and instances, in which you didn’t respawn until the full party wiped. But instead being automatically respawned, the waypoints unlock and the party can choose where to go.
If you get overwhelmed, retreat, revivev and retry, instead just waypoint and go back.
That worked very well in those instances. And it would work here too.
I fully support this idea. Too many times I’ve fallen into PuGs to be told that when you die you WP back. Nobody tried to res anybody. Nobody tries to discuss what tactics to use to defeat a particular boss, and yes, bosses do require tactics some of the time.
Dungeons, and in particular boss fights should be hard. It should mean something when you wipe and you should learn from it. First time I did TA with a group, man we went down on that spider boss a number of times. We stopped and discussed how to effectively beat it. That’s teamwork. That’s what dungeons should be about. Not just zerging everything.
What if there is someone who hasn’t done that dungeon before? I ask every PuG I’m in if everyone has done this dungeon before. If not I fill those people in on what to expect before we hit each boss. It’s not rocket science.
I very much agree. The way you can cheese bosses is just lame. In fact, the system seems to already account for it, judging from the token cost of items. The best players are going to be doing speed runs of dungeons for quick farming of dungeon tokens, and killing the boss without dying at all is the most efficient way to do it. There’s still incentive to play better, but only if you want to be one of those “elite” players.
“Be who you are and say what you feel
because those who mind don’t matter
and those who matter don’t mind.” -Dr. Seuss
because those who mind don’t matter
and those who matter don’t mind.” -Dr. Seuss
Horrid idea. Bosses already take long enough (Sorry, I’d much rather not spend more than 2 hours in a dungeon. Along with also I came home from a frustrating time, and I just want to get a dungeon in before I sleep so I can get closer to buying armors). Plus, when 2+ people die (I.E. Your glass canons, better known as majority of your damage) it’d be pretty much game over. Either that, or they’ll be able to bake a cake by the time those who are more “tanky” finish. So because of one person dying, the whole party would be likely to suffer. Then you can always count on that one person to say “lol u gys nubs bai”. Hell you probably won’t even get a “bye”, they’ll just leave.
I wouldn’t mind if they added it as an /option/, though. Like “Story Mode (Elite)” and “Exploration Mode (Elite)”. Just add a better reward (More tokens/money) or put an increase in drop rate/magic find bonus. Give people something to say “Hey, that was almost worth it”, instead of giving them the “satisfaction of defeating a hard boss without dying and a reward of tokens and bronze/blue items that you will sell and it won’t even come close to how much you can make doing events in the time it took you to finish that dungeon”.
And what happens when it is a wipe? Would you make everyone start the dungeon over? Or reset the boss? Either option would make things difficult. A better solution might be to have a timer where you can only use a way point once every X minutes.
Reset the boss, exactly. Why, to fail is not the option for you? Once you enter the dungeon, you want a guaranteed dungeon clear? Wow, the challenge, the fun…
Obviously you haven’t played the higher end dungeons where the closest waypoint is ridiculously placed 50 seconds apart w/o speed buff. Also, with dungeons that already work a player through sweat and dirt, walking an extra mile more than a few times is absurdly stupid, especially for a purely damage-built character.
yeah, I’d love to see the OP do subject alpha last stage after his suggestion made it live.
he also doesn’t seem to know that once enough players die at once the boss resets because he loses aggro.
I much rather lose over and over
with that change you will. wanna bet how fast you’ll be back here asking to roll it back?
6 years of WoW. Which stopped you from releasing your soul when you died during a boss fight. And only allowed you to release and run back, after the boss was reset or dead. Never did I complain about the very thing I am asking for.
I doubt anyone who’s asking for the change would ask for it to be changed back to what it is now.
Once/if it made it live, bosses could be balanced to a better state than what they are currently. As it stands, cheap tactics are allowed in boss fights, simply because you can run back and still kill the boss.
First of all, I don’t give a single crap about your past wisdom in WoW, we’re discussing Gw2 related systems. Secondly, most of the dungeons in WoW cannot compare to the elaboration in the difficulty that exists in Gw2. So instead of using your wisdom you got from the previous game you played, how about actually strutting yourself to crucible of eternity of arah dungeons before making such a lackluster statement.
Not sure what made you type words that make you seem angry…
I pointed out WoW, simply because the two things I was comparing were apples to apples. 5 man dungeons, with bosses, that give loot. You go through the mechanics, you get your loot. Same thing, both games.
Now, if that fight is as hard you as make it sound. It’s doing exactly what I am asking for. Taking the waypoints out of the equation. I honestly haven’t done that boss. What’s wrong with eliminating waypoints from other boss fights?
You don’t seem to even get the slightest idea, I wasn’t talking about the reward system, I was talking about MECHANICS. If you haven’t notice either, this game does not have any trinity of any sought, wiping in that game is the least expected with a good healer in your team. Not to mention, with the boss statistics are divided by a large hp/defense gap. I’m not angry at what you typed, I’m just severely disappointed that you’d splay another game in your argument especially when their instances are different and to be blunt, waypoints balance out the difficulty bringing out a more fast paced way to travel. It is a WAYPOINT after all.
In all honesty, you’re even lucky for me to take a time to read whatever you spewed from your mind.
Spooloini, are you suggesting that you’re supposed to wipe as part of the boss fight? That the difficulty is not in whether or not you win but how long it takes? Because that isn’t difficulty. It’s a timesink.
“Be who you are and say what you feel
because those who mind don’t matter
and those who matter don’t mind.” -Dr. Seuss
because those who mind don’t matter
and those who matter don’t mind.” -Dr. Seuss
I agree on what the OP says, however I would still keep the waypoint open while you are in Story Mode, because it is meant to be easier than Exploration.
However, when you are in a PuG it sucks to wipe out all the time and restart a boss again and again while needing to search for new teammates because the previous ones left.
Perhaps ANet could add a Hard Mode? I don’t necessarily want it to give better gear(Heroic mode of WoW for instance). It could either give achievements and/or more exploration tokens.
. There’s still incentive to play better, but only if you want to be one of those “elite” players.
And that’s the way it should be.
Not all of us play for challenge. Not all of us find challenge fun. Some of us just play to chill out, relax and watch some pretty pixels on our screens fall over.
If you want to challenge yourself, find a group of like-minded people, and don’t use the waypoints until you all wipe.
There’s nothing in the mechanics preventing you from playing the way -you- want to play.
. There’s still incentive to play better, but only if you want to be one of those “elite” players.
And that’s the way it should be.
Not all of us play for challenge. Not all of us find challenge fun. Some of us just play to chill out, relax and watch some pretty pixels on our screens fall over.
If you want to challenge yourself, find a group of like-minded people, and don’t use the waypoints until you all wipe.
There’s nothing in the mechanics preventing you from playing the way -you- want to play.
Should all loot be available by grinding content by easy means (e.g. Waypoint zerg). Or, should there be some loot/rewards that are only available by completing content without such means?
Should not there be something in the game that requires a well organized group of 5 people to kill content without cheapening the experience via the aforementioned “easy means”? Why should everyone be aloud to get everything by just putting in a predetermined amount of time? Why should there not be content that requires execution of mechanics, and not cheap workarounds?
Edit:
I suppose to put it more simply, why should you get the same loot as someone who does content without using waypoints? Should the more dedicated players get pretty armor that less skilled players can not achieve without putting in the same dedication?
I’ve to agree with OP. I complained about that already in BWE and still feel the same way, even though I get mykitten kicked in explorable mode in all my sessions.
It’s ok with using waypoints in story mode, butkitten the explorable mode want’s to be akittenchallenge, and using waypoints while some are still fighting the encounter is just a cheap mechanic.
There are ways to get defeated players up, there are skills that can do that, you can try to make sure that the boss doesn’t care about those 1 or 2 players that try to get that person up again, if someone gets down or is even defeated, your team should try to adapt to the situation and should try to get their party up again instead of just saying “Go, use the waypoint and hurry!”
I don’t think this game embodies class roles enough to really strategize as you may have in other MMOs. There is no Crowd control class, Condition class, DPS class… CCs last at most about 4-5 seconds, everyone is capable of condition damage, and all classes are capable of doing decent damage. The two classes I’ve noticed that make a difference are Guardian (for it’s healing, boons, and tank capability.) same for warrior good tank. that’s about it.