Guild Wars 2

Ridgeblader.7135:

people could run simple tests with groups running MF gear compared to alternate tanky/dps gear and record the efficiency of the group. They could also do tests on the golems to check the impact of MF gear compared to dps gear.

EDIT: and provide video footage……..

But no one does. I think they should all believe we should take their word as expert opinion on the subject matter.

There is no MF gear in the Mists so you can’t test in on the golems… Guess why there is no MF gear there ^^

magic find is a horrible concept.

If you have it, you get a vastly better chance for drops.
Since a person with +mf is pushing out more stuff, they push down the value of said drops, which in turn affects people who DON’T have +mf.
So, to compete EVERYONE has to get +mf. It’s not just in dungeons that it’s harmful, it’s harmful for the whole game economy.

Kaimick.5109:

Oh no it is our job to provide the videos for them, not theirs. All the experts that have posted have yet to make any convincing argument to have it removed. Although like the one that thinks he is the genius seems to think that his case is clear enough. I am going to put $100.00 down and say that at least 3 moderators have seen this thread already and yet where are they in the thread comments? I know for a fact one has as they commented and locked a thread just above this one about transmuting starter items that I commented on. I mean after all it is their job to make sure the rules are being followed so you know they read it.

And what exactly do you expect a moderator to say here?

“Oh yes Magic Find is bad we will rework it” or
“Magic Find works exactly as planned and won’t change” or something like that?

Unanimous.1486:

magic find is a horrible concept.

If you have it, you get a vastly better chance for drops.
Since a person with +mf is pushing out more stuff, they push down the value of said drops, which in turn affects people who DON’T have +mf.
So, to compete EVERYONE has to get +mf. It’s not just in dungeons that it’s harmful, it’s harmful for the whole game economy.

Once they give a better, more sensible and non-farming way of getting the best items I’m sure MF will lose it’s appeal, more and more people will choose efficiency over loot ^^ Until that day comes we’ll have threads like this

Grats you are a good player, can you say the same for every MF user out there? I’m sure you can’t.

I know what I am doing I wouldn’t deem me a good player I just know how to pay attention. If I can do it what makes you think others can’t do it? I know good players in “Berserk gear” can you say the same for every player in that type of gear? I mean your argument is a double edge sword everything you ask me I can turn it around and ask you. For as many good players out there, there is bad players. The good player no matter the gear they are in will shine and add their support to the group, and the group will never know the difference. A bad player not matter what gear he is in will always be carried and never help out the group.

It doesn’t HELP the group either, while having those extra maths helps, that’s the difference. Now as to why it is still in the game the way it is let’s leave it for another discussion ^^

it is still in the game because MF is not that hindering to groups. Face it the facts are the facts, if it truely hindered groups in running dungeons that badly then the gear would have been changed or removed. It hasn’t because the MF property on the gear is not something that is going to hinder a group.

It’s those guys who intentionally use the worse gear that get on my nerves.

How do you know they are in worse gear? Unless your trolling them and asking you can’t know. A sigil of Luck is not an indicator either I know people that run sigil of luck and Omnomberry bars ( MF banner ), Boosters and get 70% MF with out any other gear on that has MF. So how can you tell? You can’t that is just it, so how can you tell who is a bad player that your so willing to help and how can you tell when a player is
" intentionally" using worse gear? You can’t, I am proof of that, I look like I am in all CoF gear.

Take two players, same prof, similar builds, similar skill level, one with MF one without, who will be a better asset to the team? The answer is rather obvious. Now who will get more loot? The answer is again obvious. And then comes the big WHY?

This example doesn’t matter a skilled player is going to preform to a degree that this example will never come into play. I run AC, CoE, CoF, HoTW, Arah, TA exp all 3 paths. The last time I wiped as a mitigation spec guardian in any of those dungeons was once last week, the time before that I believe it was a few weeks prior.

Your wanting so much to blame the MF gear when in fact it has nothing to do with the MF gear, it is all about player skill. A good player will produce results for a group and a group will never sit there and say, " is this guy putting forth his effort or am I carrying him through? " Why would no one ever say that because no one knows when a player has MF gear, because when a run goes good no one questions Kitten like that.

maddoctor.2738:

Kaimick.5109:

Oh no it is our job to provide the videos for them, not theirs. All the experts that have posted have yet to make any convincing argument to have it removed. Although like the one that thinks he is the genius seems to think that his case is clear enough. I am going to put $100.00 down and say that at least 3 moderators have seen this thread already and yet where are they in the thread comments? I know for a fact one has as they commented and locked a thread just above this one about transmuting starter items that I commented on. I mean after all it is their job to make sure the rules are being followed so you know they read it.

And what exactly do you expect a moderator to say here?

“Oh yes Magic Find is bad we will rework it” or
“Magic Find works exactly as planned and won’t change” or something like that?

What do you expect with threads like this
“Oh yes Magic Find is bad we will rework it” or
“Magic Find works exactly as planned and won’t change” or something like that?

If they haven’t said anything yet that is because nothing is wrong with it or rather it is not a problem.

Unanimous.1486:

magic find is a horrible concept.

If you have it, you get a vastly better chance for drops.
Since a person with +mf is pushing out more stuff, they push down the value of said drops, which in turn affects people who DON’T have +mf.
So, to compete EVERYONE has to get +mf. It’s not just in dungeons that it’s harmful, it’s harmful for the whole game economy.

This is a more valid argument than the it hurts groups, I may not see it having that affect now persay but I can understand how this can happen.

Also note that when that time hits I am sure the Mods will take steps to even out the field. They have already done it with the precursor items for the legendary’s and because people are flooding the market with Precursors they are turning it into a Quest line to get the precursor then farm the rest

they are pretty good about handling inflation in the TP

If magic find is OK, then that means other type of stat combinations offer too much stats. You have to reduce or remove certain stat combinations then, because they’re just not needed. Just make every main stat into +mf.
However, this is to assume that drops as they normally are, are not good enough, that you’ll have to normalize your drops with added +mf.

Any way you look at it, +mf just doesn’t fit into any game.
If the content is balanced with +mf in mind, then it’s horribly balanced cos it assumes everyone gets +mf.
If it isn’t balanced with +mf in mind, then it’s a normal way of balancing things, in which case +mf is a horrible concept.

Unanimous.1486:

If magic find is OK, then that means other type of stat combinations offer TOO MUCH stats. You have to reduce or remove certain stat combinations then, because they’re just not needed. Just make every main stat into +mf.
However, this is to assume that drops as they normally are, are not good enough, that you’ll have to normalize your drops with added +mf.

Any way you look at it, +mf just doesn’t fit into ANY game.

I +1 you because out of everyone else on this thread you have made more of a valid argument than the rest. Still don’t agree with it but valid none the less

Kaimick.5109:

Your wanting so much to blame the MF gear when in fact it has nothing to do with the MF gear, it is all about player skill. A good player will produce results for a group and a group will never sit there and say, " is this guy putting forth his effort or am I carrying him through? " Why would no one ever say that because no one knows when a player has MF gear, because when a run goes good no one questions Kitten like that.

Even if a run is successful or not, even if nobody finds out you are using MF or not, that doesn’t change the fact that using non-MF would’ve made a difference, barely noticable or not depends on so many factors, but there is certainly some difference, and in place of that difference (no matter how “small”) the player using it gets more rewards than all the others. That’s why it is an “unfair” stat. Unless of course you run on a full MF group but in that case all suggestions ever posted on this subject would give the same end result → fairly distributed loot on all players (either taking the average, taking the max etc, suggestions posted on this very forum at times) ^^

maddoctor.2738:

Kaimick.5109:

Your wanting so much to blame the MF gear when in fact it has nothing to do with the MF gear, it is all about player skill. A good player will produce results for a group and a group will never sit there and say, " is this guy putting forth his effort or am I carrying him through? " Why would no one ever say that because no one knows when a player has MF gear, because when a run goes good no one questions Kitten like that.

Even if a run is successful or not, even if nobody finds out you are using MF or not, that doesn’t change the fact that using non-MF would’ve made a difference, barely noticable or not depends on so many factors, but there is certainly some difference, and in place of that difference (no matter how “small”) the player using it gets more rewards than all the others. That’s why it is an “unfair” stat. Unless of course you run on a full MF group but in that case all suggestions ever posted on this subject would give the same end result -> fairly distributed loot on all players (either taking the average, taking the max etc, suggestions posted on this very forum at times) ^^

And nothing is stopping you from running in the MF gear. The degree of difference doesn’t matter plain and simple. If it is a successful run the degree of difference is null and void. So a player benefited with a few more loots than you, well he deserves it he is in “Less superior gear” than you and still pulled his weight as far as anyone knows with a flawless run.

It is only un-fair if you as a player do not have access to that same advantage, making a choice to not run with that advantage does not make it un-fair, it makes it your choice.

maddoctor.2738:

There is no MF gear in the Mists so you can’t test in on the golems… Guess why there is no MF gear there ^^

That would be because you only earn glory in pvp and there are no loot drops therefore no need to have MF gear on in the mists. Wouldn’t it kitten?

So do it on the dummies in LA or again just do a run with full MF gear compared to a group “properly” geared and provide videos which outline the deficiency.

^^

maddoctor.2738:

And what exactly do you expect a moderator to say here?

“Oh yes Magic Find is bad we will rework it” or
“Magic Find works exactly as planned and won’t change” or something like that?

Why wouldn’t they? Developers have commented to those effects in the past. Most recently Jon about the changes to the speed of SoH for rangers & missile speed. Not to mention commenting on a thread for the Ele saying one of the traits is terrible and will be removed.

It’s not unheard of.

This thread….again???? For the love of…… I don’t care if you run it naked! As long as we finish in a timely and FUN run.

What’s selfish for one thing is, elitism. Demanded everyone to be at “your” acceptable level is absolutely selfish. What’s selfish and really hurting the game far more is rage quitter’s. Heck, I ran my FotM daily yesterday and the Dredge came up first. This person rage quit right at the beginning because we didn’t run the paths “their” special way. I laughed because directions are on the freak’n wiki. Later I ran TA and someone rage quit because they didn’t want to spend any money on armor repair. Those are truly selfish behaviors. Magic Find doesn’t even come close to it.

How about thinking of it this way. If someone is desperate enough to put on MF gear, they must really be in need. Be charitable…. tis’ the season, no?

I’d love to see Magic Find just removed completely. No matter if it helps/hurts a group, it’s a purely selfish stat that can NOT help others.

If it must be kept – move to to only craftable consumables, and put it on every craftable consumable there is, with the % based on the rarity of the consumable used.

But the idea of a complete selfish Magic Find stat in a group game is a terrible one, IMO.

I agree with KyleQuest.
People tend to overrate how much mf can make a character weaker. And there are a lot more things that factor in when it comes to finishing a dungeon quickly.

When someone complains about mf gear, it sounds like they assume that every player they are with in dungeons would otherwise have:
- completely maxed lvl 80 exotic weapons, armor and accessories (+superior runes and sigils)
- enough experience with the respective dungeon.
- perfectly set traitpoints, traits and skills.
- always consuming nourishment (food AND utility).
- be a good player in general.

…also you would need a perfectly balanced mix of professions in your group.
And maby you happen to end up with really strong (non-mf-using) players who all use a cond dmg build, with each player inflicting 10+ bleed stacks on their own… obviously in a boss fight they would hit the 25 stack cap and therefore be less effective.

It is obvious that mf is a tradeoff for other stat points, but it really is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to making a group as strong and fast as possible.

flow.6043:

I agree with KyleQuest.
People tend to overrate how much mf can make a character weaker. And there are a lot more things that factor in when it comes to finishing a dungeon quickly.

I think the overall point is that while it’s debatable how much a character wearing MF gear may hurt a party, it’s not debatable that MF gear simply NEVER helps a party.

It may make you 10%, 5%, 1% or 0.5% less effective, but it will absolutely never make you even 0.1% more effective.

Bregah.7365:

I think the overall point is that while it’s debatable how much a character wearing MF gear may hurt a party, it’s not debatable that MF gear simply NEVER helps a party.

It may make you 10%, 5%, 1% or 0.5% less effective, but it will absolutely never make you even 0.1% more effective.

Yes. But I wouldn’t dream of complaining about a player in my party because he isn’t playing his character as well as he could be. Be it because he has +mf, just a non-maxed gear in general or not using nourishment all the time. I even end up with players who haven’t even reached lvl80 as a character… so what, big deal. Not kicking those players from the group, for the same reason I wouldn’t if someone’s not rocking 3 ascended accessories, a triforge pendant and 2 karka shells…

Ridgeblader.7135:

maddoctor.2738:

And what exactly do you expect a moderator to say here?

“Oh yes Magic Find is bad we will rework it” or
“Magic Find works exactly as planned and won’t change” or something like that?

Why wouldn’t they? Developers have commented to those effects in the past. Most recently Jon about the changes to the speed of SoH for rangers & missile speed. Not to mention commenting on a thread for the Ele saying one of the traits is terrible and will be removed.

It’s not unheard of.

I can redirect you to the topic of “Legendaries being sold on TP” (a recent hotly disputed issue) it’s on the bug forums. It’s confirmed it’s working as intented, did it stop the whinning about it? Nope, not the least bit, a dev saying “it’s working as intended” doesn’t mean it’s good for everyone and doesn’t mean complains about it will stop.

It’s not unheard of.

Ridgeblader.7135:

maddoctor.2738:

There is no MF gear in the Mists so you can’t test in on the golems… Guess why there is no MF gear there ^^

That would be because you only earn glory in pvp and there are no loot drops therefore no need to have MF gear on in the mists. Wouldn’t it kitten?

So do it on the dummies in LA or again just do a run with full MF gear compared to a group “properly” geared and provide videos which outline the deficiency.

^^

As explained a thousand times I don’t need to do that, everyone can do that themselves, here I went to the dummies in LA and my damage indeed dropped when using MF gear, is that a surprise? The stat difference is enough for this, do I really need a video to explain the obvious? Less damage is less damage, although testing on dummies in LA doesn’t mean anything, it’s only damage you can compare there not survivability ^^ if you haven’t noticed, they don’t fight back.

You didn’t answer properly why it’s not in the Mists. It’s not in the Mists because nobody would use it as it is clearly inefficient compared to all other types of gear, you don’t need a video to explain that do you?

While i don’t mind the Magic Find stat, and even own a MF set myself, i still don’t see myself using it all that often since my class (thief/ranger) can’t really do alot while wearing the magic find stuff.

Thus i was wondering, why wouldn’t ANet just add something like the Paragon system which has been successfully adopted by D3, for further progression once you hit level 80 ?

Each additional level you could earn one of the “useless” Stats like Magic Find, Rare Gathering rate, Karma boost, Influence Boost in addition to the skill point you gain currently.
They could also be evil and give you the choice which one of the stats you want to raise after you level up … so you get either 1% Magic find, or 1% better chance to gather rare Materials or 1% more Karma or Influence for your guild or 1 Skill point

@ maddoctor.2738

Your a broken record, please stop
You make this claim that is it selfish and yet it is just as selfish for you to take away the choice from others.

You make a claim that you can always tell when someone is in MF gear, I proved you wrong there.

You claim that MF is detrimental to a groups success, I proved you wrong yet again and by your own ommision you agreed with me, so you left that alone.

You Claim that it is un-fair that players have a chance at better loot than you do because of MF, yet again I prove to you that it is not Un-fair as you have the option to do it also. Although Because your choose not to do it, you for some reason think this is un-fair even though it was your choice.

• I think the overall point is that while it’s debatable how much a character wearing MF gear may hurt a party, it’s not debatable that MF gear simply NEVER helps a party.

A thieves personal stealth never helps a party, if every one starts to die a thieve can stealth and run away so he doesn’t die and get a repair bill, should we remove this from the game also? Mesmer’s can also stealth and run from battle doing the same, should we remove this from the game? Anyone can tether a mob and not die shall we remove tethering then?

There are many many more examples of abilities and items in the game that is for the pure need of the player only should we remove all these form the game also?

Kaimick.5109:

Your a broken record, please stop
You make this claim that is it selfish and yet it is just as selfish for you to take away the choice from others.

Why is it selfish? Is it selfish to want to remove something selfish from the game? That’s not an argument.

You make a claim that you can always tell when someone is in MF gear, I proved you wrong there.

Never claimed that and never proven wrong in anything.

You claim that MF is detrimental to a groups success, I proved you wrong yet again and by your own ommision you agreed with me, so you left that alone.

When, what, who? My claim that MF is detrimental to a group’s success hasn’t been proven wrong, I’m waiting for your videos showing otherwise, until then you’ve proven absolutely nothing. The math is there and is more than enough proof. You know why there isn’t any MF gear in the Mists right? If it isn’t detrimental why it isn’t there? And don’t tell me because there are no loot drops there, because loot drops won’t help a group in a dungeon, they will only help a single person = selfish. You’ve proven nothing so far and now you claim you did? When?

You Claim that it is un-fair that players have a chance at better loot than you do because of MF, yet again I prove to you that it is not Un-fair as you have the option to do it also. Although Because your choose not to do it, you for some reason think this is un-fair even though it was your choice.

What you say here is that the next “gear” level after exotic is exotic MF and everyone should be doing that. Since even with a full exotic mf group people can finish a dungeon (in more time for sure) so it shouldn’t matter. Why not remove every other piece of gear from the game then?

A thieves personal stealth never helps a party, if every one starts to die a thieve can stealth and run away so he doesn’t die and get a repair bill, should we remove this from the game also? Mesmer’s can also stealth and run from battle doing the same, should we remove this from the game? Anyone can tether a mob and not die shall we remove tethering then?
There are many many more examples of abilities and items in the game that is for the pure need of the player only should we remove all these form the game also?

Those examples are the best you can come up with? Since you haven’t played a Thief or Mesmer let me tell you that a Thief without stealth dies (a lot) it’s so intergrated into the class that you are dead weight without it, same goes for Mesmers and their illusions or any other class abilities. They are not for the pure of need of the player though, a Thief that uses Stealth (other than well his means of staying alive unlike your easy-mode Warrior who can stand there and take hits) can also come back and revive the group so everyone avoids a very long run from the waypoint, never thought of that? Or a Mesmer using group stealth to pass through a difficult point by running.

There is absolutely no kind of help to the group by MF, but as I easily proved, those “skills” you mentioned can very well help the group, it depends how you use them. MF can never be used positevely in a group in any way or form. It’s the only selfish stat/skill in the game.

• Why is it selfish? Is it selfish to want to remove something selfish from the game? That’s not an argument.

It is selfish to remove a factor of the game because you don’t like it, there are many people that don’t use it nor do they really care about it. Your asking for the removal because you don’t like it that is selfish.

• Never claimed that and never proven wrong in anything.

allow me to also cite your other post

• maddoctor.2738
  Gelltor.3015:
  Out of curiosity how can you tell if they have that gear on….?
  rare gear skin is one thing to look for (of course it’s not 100% certain) and sigil of luck obviously, gear-pinging might also work. Other than that nope you can’t unfortunately.

Right there you stated that you could tell, I then later posted a picture of my toon to disprove that. your response was

• And that’s why a better way to know what gear someone has is needed, because of the transmutation. And no I don’t want inspection, a bad player is welcome to “my” group, a player that intentionally gimps himself at the expense of the rest of the team to get better rewards is not (and those are the guys I want to avoid)

there you admit that people might not be able to be detected to be wearing MF gear so there should be a way you could tell so you could avoid them.

• MF gear in the Mists right? If it isn’t detrimental why it isn’t there?

What is the purpose of Magic Find? To have a better % chance at obtaining rare or higher tiered gear or items from loot drops or mobs. In PvP there is no loot that drops therefore the stat would have no value there. IF there were a loot drop system in PvP that allowed you obtain Mats and gear then yes MF would be found in PvP also. If you need further explanation than this I don’t know what to tell you.

• What you say here is that the next “gear” level after exotic is exotic MF and everyone should be doing that. Since even with a full exotic mf group people can finish a dungeon (in more time for sure) so it shouldn’t matter. Why not remove every other piece of gear from the game then?

I never said anything about gear level or teir progression ever. You keep making this argument about Gear level. Now did I ever say that everyone should be in MF although let me repost what I did say for you.

• And nothing is stopping you from running in the MF gear.

That is not saying you need to wear it it is saying you have the option or choice to run in it.

• Those examples are the best you can come up with? Since you haven’t played a Thief or Mesmer let me tell you that a Thief without stealth dies (a lot) it’s so intergrated into the class that you are dead weight without it, same goes for Mesmers and their illusions or any other class abilities. They are not for the pure of need of the player though, a Thief that uses Stealth (other than well his means of staying alive unlike your easy-mode Warrior who can stand there and take hits) can also come back and revive the group so everyone avoids a very long run from the waypoint, never thought of that? Or a Mesmer using group stealth to pass through a difficult point by running.

I have a thieve level 72 and I have a 80 mesmer. if a group dies at the bosses feet or spawn location how are they going to res them with out aggoring the boss? You can’t, a thieve doesn’t need to use stealth to stay alive as you claim I do just fine and only use stealth multiple times in boss fights although it has nothing to do with staying alive I use it to increase the damage I do.

• There is absolutely no kind of help to the group by MF, but as I easily proved, those “skills” you mentioned can very well help the group, it depends how you use them. MF can never be used positevely in a group in any way or form. It’s the only selfish stat/skill in the game.

I never denied that MF is a selfish stat, that doesn’t mean it has no place in the game, just in your opinion you feel that is doesn’t. Obviously Arena net doesn’t agree with you.

• My claim that MF is detrimental to a group’s success hasn’t been proven wrong,

Yeah it has and by your own words you openly admitted that you were. Allow me to post your previous arguments.

• Kaimick.5109:
  You have no proof of that, since there is no way to tell maybe it is you that they are carrying . I have outlasted and down a boss from 10% with that toon as a Mitigation spec guardian, in MF gear so tell me how your elitist Kitten is carrying me?

That is you —-> Grats you are a good player, can you say the same for every MF user out there? I’m sure you can’t.

• This is what I said —-—> I know what I am doing I wouldn’t deem me a good player I just know how to pay attention. If I can do it what makes you think others can’t do it? I know good players in “Berserk gear” can you say the same for every player in that type of gear? I mean your argument is a double edge sword everything you ask me I can turn it around and ask you. For as many good players out there, there is bad players. The good player no matter the gear they are in will shine and add their support to the group, and the group will never know the difference. A bad player not matter what gear he is in will always be carried and never help out the group.

You had no retort to that and you dropped it like I posted before

• That’s why it is an “unfair” stat.

Adjective
Not based on or behaving according to the principles of equality and justice.
Unkind, inconsiderate, or unreasonable: “you’re unfair to criticize like that when she’s never done you any harm”.

No where in there does it say that by having MF gear in a game makes the gear unfair why here let me high-lite it for you

principles of equality this is saying that if you as a player did not have the ability to also use or gain MF gear ( regardless of the fact you would use it ) that it would create a un-equality for your self therefore being unfair for you and others like you. This is not the case as every player has the choice to use mf gear just as they have the choice not to. By your definition of what is unfair, then the guardian can have a ranged sword attack that reflects projectiles, when my thieve or warrior or Mesmer or ranger can’t. But it is not it is a choice I make when I choose to play a ranger or a thieve or a mesmer or warrior. But I guess by your logic we should just give every profession every ones abilities so that everyone can do everything that everyone else does that way we are all fair.

Kaimick.5109:

It is selfish to remove a factor of the game because you don’t like it, there are many people that don’t use it nor do they really care about it. Your asking for the removal because you don’t like it that is selfish.

If you read above I say it’s selfish and offers nothing to groups that’s why I want it removed (only from dungeons) and I ask again how is selfish wanting to remove something selfish?

Right there you stated that you could tell, I then later posted a picture of my toon to disprove that. your response was

Which part of “not-100%” didn’t you read?

there you admit that people might not be able to be detected to be wearing MF gear so there should be a way you could tell so you could avoid them.

But I never said there is any way to know for sure who has and who doesn’t have MF gear. And that’s one of the issues with MF in the first place.

What is the purpose of Magic Find? To have a better % chance at obtaining rare or higher tiered gear or items from loot drops or mobs. In PvP there is no loot that drops therefore the stat would have no value there. IF there were a loot drop system in PvP that allowed you obtain Mats and gear then yes MF would be found in PvP also. If you need further explanation than this I don’t know what to tell you.

I don’t know if you are joking here or not….

I never said anything about gear level or teir progression ever. You keep making this argument about Gear level. Now did I ever say that everyone should be in MF although let me repost what I did say for you.

• And nothing is stopping you from running in the MF gear.

That is not saying you need to wear it it is saying you have the option or choice to run in it.

Nothing? Doing more and be rewarded less than slackers who use it isn’t exactly “nothing”. I don’t see any choices here, it’s between having more loot or not, if as you say MF gear doesn’t have an impact on performance.

I have a thieve level 72 and I have a 80 mesmer. if a group dies at the bosses feet or spawn location how are they going to res them with out aggoring the boss? You can’t, a thieve doesn’t need to use stealth to stay alive as you claim I do just fine and only use stealth multiple times in boss fights although it has nothing to do with staying alive I use it to increase the damage I do.

I have a Thief at 68 and Mesmer at 71. I use stealth on both with intelligence to overcome encounters. Apparently you don’t. How do you use MF to help in ANY situation? Simple answer: you don’t. Increasing your damage is also helping your group survive, by killing mobs faster, MF doesn’t help anywhere, so the point counts, MF is selfish, and it’s the only selfish stat, period.

I never denied that MF is a selfish stat, that doesn’t mean it has no place in the game, just in your opinion you feel that is doesn’t. Obviously Arena net doesn’t agree with you.

It has a place in event farming/grinding, it has no place in a dungeon where cooperation and proper play/builds are more important. Arena net may or may not agree with me or any other suggestion out here, does it invalidate them? Nope it doesn’t, even devs make mistakes. I showed the simple example of Legendaries on TP, there was BOTH A DEV answer to say that it works as intented but never stopped complains, apparently when someone makes a rule people don’t like, they protest to have it revised instead of standing still and taking it.

I haven’t seen a post on this thread (like the Legendaries on TP thread) saying “MF is working as intended and will stay like this forever”, maybe because they are thinking about it?

Your a really bad troll, I mean really bad troll. SO I am done with you, I prove points and you don’t like them cause you don’t agree and you still argue.

Like your childish and un-intelligent response to my explanation of pvp and MF gear. If your really confused on that your a moron. Your on this vendetta to make sure your right in all aspects and can’t accept the fact that you are wrong. You are making it that everyone has to have X gear with X runes and sigils or your not effectively helping the group. And to try and support this delusional theory of yours you bring in the fact that pvp doesn’t have MF cause it doesn’t help damage. When in fact it has nothing to do with that what so ever, but your narcissistic mind that thinks your right about everything ( which if you ask some is a preludes to your mentality of age ) and that everyone is wrong.

Your right maybe they are thinking about it, maybe children that cry like you will get your way, maybe just maybe you will get to stop QQing about the topic, or in my opinion trolling.

Then again like any 5 year old if you don’t get your way your just going to sit there and cry and throw a hissy fit till you either get your way or you get slapped down. Now I am not saying your 5 but some of your previous comments reflect the Mentality of a 5 year old.

So respond and feel like your the victor to this cause even though I said it before I am done with you, you have made at least 10 post on this thread and yet 8 of them same the same thing over and over and over and over again. You offer no actual insight to a valid argument other than you feel it is unjustly and unfair, well others many many many others don’t feel the same way. Good day troll and I suggest to others don’t feed this troll any more.

I won’t fall to personal attacks level, this has gone for too long and it’s getting tiresome.

I bet everyone else reading our conversation is lauging out loud (including any devs) Can we get a lock and wait for the next “MF thread” to appear in a few days?

Here, allow me to sum it up quickly:
Do you deal less damage with Explorer’s than Berserker’s? Yes.
Do you take more damage with Explorer’s than Knight’s? Yes.
Is there any combat stat advantage to Explorer’s compared to Knight’s or Berserker’s? No.
Thus, MF has no combat advantage at all.

If you deal less damage, are you less valuable to the group? Yes.
If you take more damage, are you less valuable to the group? Yes.
Thus, MF is detrimental to the group.

Does the group benefit from you dealing more damage? Yes.
Does the group benefit from you taking less damage? Yes.
Does the group benefit in any way from your Magic Find? No.
Thus, Magic Find is only of value to the user.

In conclusion, Explorer’s holds no value to the group over Berserker’s or Knight’s and only provides bonuses to the user, in return for lowered effectiveness. In other words, selfish.

Remove Magic Find, stupid stat that should never have been implemented to begin with. Anet sure have made many strange decisions in this game.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Here, allow me to sum it up quickly:
Do you deal less damage with Explorer’s than Berserker’s? Yes.
Do you take more damage with Explorer’s than Knight’s? Yes.
Is there any combat stat advantage to Explorer’s compared to Knight’s or Berserker’s? No.
Thus, MF has no combat advantage at all.

If you deal less damage, are you less valuable to the group? Yes.
If you take more damage, are you less valuable to the group? Yes.
Thus, MF is detrimental to the group.

Does the group benefit from you dealing more damage? Yes.
Does the group benefit from you taking less damage? Yes.
Does the group benefit in any way from your Magic Find? No.
Thus, Magic Find is only of value to the user.

In conclusion, Explorer’s holds no value to the group over Berserker’s or Knight’s and only provides bonuses to the user, in return for lowered effectiveness. In other words, selfish.

The argument was never weather it was selfish or weather you did less damage. A good player can play in Explorers gear and the party never realize the difference in due part to having a smooth run.
Could he have done more damage? Yes
Would the run have gone faster? Yes by a minute or so
Did you still complete the run with out problems? yes
Are there bad players that no matter what gear they have will still just suck? Yes
Is MF gear the reason why people suck? No

The point is, if your run is getting completed with no wipes and no hassles what does it matter that joe billy bob next to you has MF gear? If your really worried about that extra 2 to 5 minutes then you should have never been running a dungeon in the first place. I don’t care how many times I have run a dungeon or my guild has run the dungeon flawlessly, if I don’t have 40 minutes to devote to running a single path I don’t do it, does it ever take us 40 minutes? NO So why do I do that cause everyone can have a off day the dungeon could be bugged, my buddy could just have missed something and we wiped. Point of the story is kitten happens so if your really worried about that extra few minutes you need to not run a dungeon.

There is no denying the fact that someone in armor not explorers will do more damage or have more survivability, but I play a Mitigation Guardian in 100% MF gear and I hardly ever die in dungeons and I can also last on average to 55% high 68% on the Gauntlet in path two before Gaheron. Sure can I take a few more hits in knights gear or what not sure I could, but when I do an effective job that never causes me to have issues in dungeons, and I have never been the first to die in a run nor have I wiped in a very very long time, why do I need to change to knights gear? To make the people that hate MF gear happy? what about what makes me happy? I mean I paid for my copy of the game, why can’t I choose to gear my toons the way I want, so long as I am not making runs harder and to date I have not?

Is it selfish to have MF? yes
Is it selfish to tell someone they can’t have MF cause you don’t like it? Yes

The difference between myself and most of the people that are crying about MF is I realize what I am doing is selfish, I also realize that it is not MF that makes bad players, it is the player that makes a bad player. That same bad player in MF is going to be just as bad in Knights gear or zerker gear cause he is bad. I along with most of the people I farm events with have never had issues using our MF gear in dungeons, so your wanting to punish the good players cause you think they should have X gear with X Runes in it, even though this game is designed around the ability and premise to allow the player to play their own way.

We get it you don’t like MF gear we all get it, although there are plenty of people that do. If you go through every MF removal thread and count the people that support your idea and then subtract them to the base congruent player base of ( 400K) that is how many players either don’t care or use it. I am beating that number of people that hate it and want it removed is below 5%. If you hate it so much then don’t pug, run with your guildies, or start being an elitist and asking for people to link their gear in chat if they have any MF gear you can boot them. Otherwise suck it up and realize that it is not the gear it is the player. Once you realize that things will be a lot less stressful for you I promise

Kaimick.5109:

Is it selfish to tell someone they can’t have MF cause you don’t like it? Yes

You keep on reciting that it’s selfish to tell other people to stop being selfish.
First off, a business example. Is it selfish for a worker to tell another worker who isn’t pulling his share to do his kitten job so you don’t have to do all his work for them? No.

Second, an analogous situation: Is it intolerant to tell someone to stop being intolerant? No.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Kaimick.5109:

Is it selfish to tell someone they can’t have MF cause you don’t like it? Yes

You keep on reciting that it’s selfish to tell other people to stop being selfish.
First off, a business example. Is it selfish for a worker to tell another worker who isn’t pulling his share to do his kitten job so you don’t have to do all his work for them? No.

Second, an analogous situation: Is it intolerant to tell someone to stop being intolerant? No.

I think we have moved past the fact that it is selfish, I have even openly admited multiple times it is selfish, I have also stated that there are many people out there that never hinder a group using MF. Yes they don’t do as much damage, but that is not what we are measuring a successful group by. The fact measurment is

• did the group complete the dungeon?
• Did the group wipe a lot
• was the wipes in part to poor choices?
• Was it finished with little troubles?

I just ran all three paths of TA just finished like 15 minutes ago. We had a person that I swear was dying roughly every minute or so. At the end of the run I asked him to eb honest ( since these threads have come up I have been asking ) if he had any problems linking his gear. He told me no and linked it all, He was in all AC Exotics with Serker runes ( superior ). We all died on the one part My self being the last to die second boss in, due to not paying attention mainly as most of us were joking on vent about something. This gentleman was the first he resed and starting running back ASAP. He finally got there as soon as I dropped I watched him DPS the hell out of the boss barely moving the health bar, he dies just as one of my buddies gets there and starts in on the dps moving a noticeable amount before others get there. 3 of 5 of use were in MF gear 100% 2 of 5 of us were always the last ones standing one of which was a mitigation spec, outside of that one mishap we never wiped.

So tell me why is it so important to people like you, IF a player can be effective ( maybe not to your “STANDARDS” ) in a group why, because it is something you don’t like, that something be removed. When you have the simple choice not to use it. Since these threads have come up I have ran into 2 players that I have asked about their gear, that were just dying constantly, and found out they were in MF. Where most of them where in Gear that you said people should be in, Like the gentleman I just ran with in TA, they are just bad players no matter the gear, where are good players can have no issues with dying or keeping up in damage or putting in their fair share of damage ( regardless weather you think it is your Standard or not). Bad players are going to be bad players regardless of what gear you put them in, that is the plain and simple truth. But players like your self are more willing to carry someone that has no skill through a dungeon good gear or not so long as they don’t have MF. When in reality your blaming the MF stat ( regardless of it group utility purpose or lack there of ) for bad players, when that is not the case.

I understand people do not like the MF stat, I really really do and I respect that. Although for all you that don’t like it there are people if not more that do like it, say you do get your way and MF is removed, how is it fair or not selfish to take that choice away form someone else that paid for their game ( since you didn’t pay for their game ) to take that option that is in the game away from them because you don’t like it?

That is all I am saying here, I can point out many many many players that are bad and in the Gear all you guys are saying is more beneficial to a group and cause the group to have more problems, than I can point out people that do the same in MF. If you don’t like MF that is fine don’t use it, but don’t blame MF stat on bad players lack of skill, when it is the player not the stat.

It boils down to the fact that you are intentionally making yourself, and thus your group, worse for your own benefit.

And you clearly do not understand the fact that people in better gear WILL perform better than if they were in worse gear simply by having stronger gear.

Yes, bad players will still suck, good players will still do well. But bad players will suck less and good players will do better with better gear.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

It boils down to the fact that you are intentionally making yourself, and thus your group, worse for your own benefit.

And you clearly do not understand the fact that people in better gear WILL perform better than if they were in worse gear simply by having stronger gear.

Yes, bad players will still suck, good players will still do well. But bad players will suck less and good players will do better with better gear.

Agreed, but why does it matter so much if you are still achieving the same result with little to no problems?
How do you know if a run went flawless that someone is in MF?
The only time it becomes anywhere to a true problem is when a bad player steps in.
If a good player can do well and well is getting you a run that has no issues and goes by fast and flawless then why does it matter? Why does it bother you to have a clean run, because they are getting more loot? What they get doesn’t affect your account or your game, so if your run goes by flawlessly then why does it matter?
Just answer those questions honestly with out the Because they could be doing more, the fact of what they can do and what they do doesn’t matter here the end result matters.
If you have a Flawless run no issues ( say CoF Path 2 ) and complete it in 15 to 20 minutes ( average time I complete it ) why does it matter what gear the other guy is wearing? Wouldn’t you say that is a good run?

Because they made the conscious decision to nerf themselves and either slow you down or increase the risk of screwups in order to use something that only they benefit from, and no one else.

The only risk in screw ups with that is in due part to the players skill not the gear.

To say it slows down a run, again is all in player skill, if your worried about that extra 5 minutes in a dungeon than like I stated before you probably shouldn’t be running the dungeon.

What is boils down to from everything I have seen people are mad that Good players are achieving the same end result in “Less superior gear” as ones in “Standard gear” but are getting more out of it. I am sorry but you too can wear MF gear and get the same result we do if your a good player. I wear MF gear along with the group of friends I run with to get T6 mats and a higher chance at load-stones and exotic drops to get my legendary. Once i have my legendary’s I will probably go to regular gear, as of right now I am going to take the higher chance at getting Load-stones and T6 mats. I am going to get the Exotics to Mystic forge them into hopefully a precursor to start my legendary.

If a player can achieve the same end results just as good ( not as good ) as someone in “standard gear” and get something extra out of it then they have every right to do so. You don’t have to like the gear you don’t even have to like the premise in which the gear was designed or put in place for, the only thing you have to worry about is are you achieving your goal. MF is not the reason for bad dungeon runs as I have stated before bad players are. Being upset at the fact that a player has the skill level to run a dungeon in MF gear and not wipe not screw up and not die constantly is not right either. Do I agree that MF is a selfish act yes yes it is, but it is a selfish act that everyone can do.

Having MF does not ( for example not factual ) put a 33% change that you will screw up, as it does not put a 55% change your run will go slower by any considerable amount of time. So with that said yes a person can do more in gear that is not MF, but if the end result is the same but 2 minutes slower as a full group in “standard gear” then MF should never be an issue. Unless of course your just mad that there are players out there that have the skill and understanding to do that and you don’t. ( not saying you don’t just saying in general)

Like I said before I understand your dislike for it, I don’t even fault you for your dislike for it. I back you on your dis like for MF, what I do not support is the fact that you and others want the removal of something because they feel it has no place and hurts groups, when in fact it will never affect a group to a degree that it becomes a problem if the player is good. As you stated before if they are a bad player the gear is not going to make them a good player( may help him slightly but bad is bad ) that analogy doesn’t just work one way, that goes the same for Magic find gear. Cause at the end of the day what this gear gives you and what that gear gives you doesn’t matter, what maters is what is the end result in all of it, if your end result is the same then it shouldn’t matter what the other guy has or gets. You make a active choice to not use it, they make an active choice to use it you both have choices, and yet you want to remove that choice from them? Believe me if there was a Thread that said all gear should have magic find ( regardless of the fact that I use it ) I would be the first to say the same to them, they don’t have any more of a right to say you have to use MF as you have the right to say they don’t.

You know what?
Here.
Go do a run with everyone wearing no armor, since obviously player skill is all that matters.

LOL why is this retort the fall back retort to everyone that hates MF gear. Gear does play a factor, stats do play a factor not denying that, but they are not as much of a factor as a lot of people are putting on them.

Arena Net has stated them self that Gear and stats are not a major factor in GW2 they do provide benefits and will help hone a character but they are not as much of a crucial factor as other MMO’s have had on them.

I mean that is like saying a fresh 80 has no place in Exp dungeons cause he doesn’t have exotics, he can’t get them unless he does them or pays for them or crafts them ( which is paying for them ) The game is set up so that player skill and knowledge of profession, skills, traits and dungeons will always benefit a player more than gear will. That is why AC explorer is a 35 dungeon not an 80. Cause at 35 you have enough trait points and enough skill points to be effective and no hinder a group in the explorer part of the dungeon. If this was not true then all Explorer dungeons would be Level 80 dungeons.

But thank you for seeing my point your comment is usually when the person sits back and say’s okay she has a point but I don’t want to admit I was wrong. I could be completely and utterly incorrect here but my point has still been stated and regardless of how you want to look at it you know it is right.

Now if you feel that everyone should BE X spec with X gear with X rune and no other way, essentially your way or the highway then you will never agree with me and that is fine also.

Don’t remove MF.

If a group can’t carry my character while I get richer, they are a terrible group.

runeblade.7514:

Don’t remove MF.

If a group can’t carry my character while I get richer, they are a terrible group.

Either your joking or your serious

Seeing as your other comments in other mf threads I say sarcasm

Since you insist in other threads that MF gear people hurt groups, Which they don’t.
I knwo your giong to argue that you get 200 more points ect ect ect so before you post that or anyone post that as an argument like another poster did on this thread just go a head and show me a few things

How much power per a point increases your damage and by how much?
How much precision is 1% crit ?
Mow much does crit damage per a point increase your damage output ?
How much condition damage points you need to increase your over all condition damage out put?

How do each of the stats convert into damage dealt, crit change increased, ect.
As far as I can see and I have looked, maybe I am not looking hard enough, Arena net has not released that formula yet.

So saying with out MF gear you have 400 more attribute points in X stat that means I am carrying you. When in reality 400 more points can mean 2% increase to damage and stats, or it could mean 20% or even 1% with out the full formula your just assuming since it is a larger number that it is far superior when you have no clue what that number represents.

If you are serious then your the type of player that people hate, and no wonder why people want MF removed, but at last I know your not serious.

If I use MF gear in a group, I become healing and buffing character to make up for my Power attack loss.

You can pull off healing when using ranged, and I still get my fill in useful treasure.
I’m a Engineer.
I haven’t had one complaint from my guild, in fact they ask me to change into support sometimes and I get to use my MF gear.

I can definitely see a problem with warrior/guardian switching in support with MF gear… so there is that issue.

Kaimick.5109:

LOL why is this retort the fall back retort to everyone that hates MF gear. Gear does play a factor, stats do play a factor not denying that, but they are not as much of a factor as a lot of people are putting on them.

Arena Net has stated them self that Gear and stats are not a major factor in GW2 they do provide benefits and will help hone a character but they are not as much of a crucial factor as other MMO’s have had on them.

I mean that is like saying a fresh 80 has no place in Exp dungeons cause he doesn’t have exotics, he can’t get them unless he does them or pays for them or crafts them ( which is paying for them ) The game is set up so that player skill and knowledge of profession, skills, traits and dungeons will always benefit a player more than gear will. That is why AC explorer is a 35 dungeon not an 80. Cause at 35 you have enough trait points and enough skill points to be effective and no hinder a group in the explorer part of the dungeon. If this was not true then all Explorer dungeons would be Level 80 dungeons.

But thank you for seeing my point your comment is usually when the person sits back and say’s okay she has a point but I don’t want to admit I was wrong. I could be completely and utterly incorrect here but my point has still been stated and regardless of how you want to look at it you know it is right.

Now if you feel that everyone should BE X spec with X gear with X rune and no other way, essentially your way or the highway then you will never agree with me and that is fine also.

It’s the fall back retort because YOUR fallback is that gear is pretty much irrelevant. Which is blatantly incorrect.

You know why Masterwork users at 80 are better than exotic MF users?
Because they’re fresh 80s who can’t afford better.
An exotic MF user obviously could afford exotic, and then willingly took the option that made them worse, in full knowledge of the fact that the stats are worse.

And the comment was because I was sick of reading crap built on a completely broken premise and so I attacked the premise instead of wasting more of my time.

Kaimick.5109:

runeblade.7514:

Don’t remove MF.

If a group can’t carry my character while I get richer, they are a terrible group.

Either your joking or your serious

Seeing as your other comments in other mf threads I say sarcasm

Since you insist in other threads that MF gear people hurt groups, Which they don’t.
I knwo your giong to argue that you get 200 more points ect ect ect so before you post that or anyone post that as an argument like another poster did on this thread just go a head and show me a few things

How much power per a point increases your damage and by how much?
How much precision is 1% crit ?
Mow much does crit damage per a point increase your damage output ?
How much condition damage points you need to increase your over all condition damage out put?

How do each of the stats convert into damage dealt, crit change increased, ect.
As far as I can see and I have looked, maybe I am not looking hard enough, Arena net has not released that formula yet.

So saying with out MF gear you have 400 more attribute points in X stat that means I am carrying you. When in reality 400 more points can mean 2% increase to damage and stats, or it could mean 20% or even 1% with out the full formula your just assuming since it is a larger number that it is far superior when you have no clue what that number represents.

If you are serious then your the type of player that people hate, and no wonder why people want MF removed, but at last I know your not serious.

If you are asking questions instead of providing peer-reviewed research, then your argument is invalid.

“Magic Find” is a placebo. It makes you think it actually does something, but it doesn’t actually do anything. Not since the introduction of DR, anyway. It used to be all the craze before then.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

You know why Masterwork users at 80 are better than exotic MF users?
Because they’re fresh 80s who can’t afford better.
An exotic MF user obviously could afford exotic, and then willingly took the option that made them worse, in full knowledge of the fact that the stats are worse.

I guess you did the best summary of the issue here
Of course when you say “better” you mean people worth playing with, right?

There is also the issue that a full Masterwork geared char has better stats than a full exotic MF character, so given the same skill, masterwork > exotic MF any day.

Soulstar.7812:

If I use MF gear in a group, I become healing and buffing character to make up for my Power attack loss.

You can pull off healing when using ranged, and I still get my fill in useful treasure.
I’m a Engineer.
I haven’t had one complaint from my guild, in fact they ask me to change into support sometimes and I get to use my MF gear.

I can definitely see a problem with warrior/guardian switching in support with MF gear… so there is that issue.

You mean you are using the new “boon duration/healing/MF” inscriptions/insignia? They are certainly powerful for a support/buffer role, it’s a pity we don’t get a boon duration/healing/ <something useful> combination, then once again MF would be subpar. Until then, Giver’s gear isn’t bad for a support role