Edit Please read the details of the post before you assume the content, this is not to make WvW have more PvE stuff but rather to make it feel more alive and more like a battlefield rather than a zergfest there are only a few NPC’s added to help group people as they are grouped in PvE they are not meant to be huge NPC groups that have to bet PvE down.
I love many things about Guild Wars 2 but most of all how when you are out exploring the world events will start up on their own and often people working or exploring the zone will find themselves grouping up to complete these events. One of the major down sides that people dislike about WvW is that it is often a huge zerg-fest unless you find a dedicated guild in doing WvW. The solution to this is making WvW a living world.
If WvW were to work like much of the rest of Guild Wars I feel that you would find people grouping up at nearby events and then running together instead of just logging in and finding the ‘blue taco’ and zerging around.
In order for these events to work they would have to be scaling much like how a lot of dynamic events are in PvE. Also the rewards that are earned with this would have to be able to compete with other forms of getting exp/karma/gold as anything that these are earned as fast tends to drop off and get ignored.
(edited by Pink Ninja Man.4375)
There are a few ways that this can be done and I believe a combination of these would be the best.
First, make things seem more living by adding some more usefull NPC’s rather than just ‘filler’ NPC’s. For example instead of just having supply magically show up at supply camps have workers out cutting trees up in the surrounding area and bringing the logs back to the supply camp. The can use similar animations to the current tree gathering animation used by players. These would be killable as well allowing people to slow down the regeneration rate of a supply camp without having to completly take it. Also when it comes to the guards on in places make them pace around or walk along the walls instead of just standing in the same spot all the time. If there are cannon or mortar upgrades have the guards man them unless a player takes them over much like how a siege owner can take from another player. They don’t have to have perfect shots with them just something to make the towers not look deserted all the time and to prevent a small group of people being able to take a tower without having to kill oil/canons first.
Second, have some events that start a chain of events similar to how the mercanaiy camps work in eternal but they build up to something more than just a few NPC’s that can get soloed. These chained evens will slowly build up the size of players working on them over time because it takes some time to get from the start to the end so people can work their way over there. I could start with something simply like a centaur raid on a supply camp or even a tower that once fended of maybe the guards want to counter attack to prevent the problem in the future. After the counter attack on the centaur village they troops are feeling confident so they wish to attack an enemy outpost. This is where the dynamic will come into play. If they group has formed up to a larger size the attack heads for a tower and if it is smaller it tries to increase the size of the group by attacking a camp first then checking to see if the group is big enough for a tower attack. This check process can continue on up to more towers and up to keeps and even SM. The even gets stopped however when an enemy group comes and stopes it causing it to fail. It could possible fail by having all of the NPC’s dead for 1 min or something. On this even failing the other server would have a similar start up even much like the one the first server got at the supply camp. This would help to simulate how lots of the PvE has ‘back and forth’ events that are dependent on succeeding or failing. This would also give the feel of how a real battle would take place where the sides are always pushing against each other.
Third, fill the ‘empty’ space with something meaning full not just ‘filler’. What I mean here is all that space in between locations just feels blank. Yes there are creatures there but there is no reason for them there and they just look silly. Put in some different hostile camps here and there, ones that will start attacks on friendly camps/towers if left alone to build up. Add some villages that have civilians walking around in them (for the locations that you wan’t not hostile mobs in). If there was a meaning to why there are units there it would look more alive and living. I’m not suggesting you take all of the creatures out but in some of the giant spots with nothing in them you can easily fit in a camp or a town. With with the possibility of events occurring in them.
So why would people spend the time working on getting these events to build up to taking a camp/tower/keep when they can just zerg up with a commander and bust through towers in a few minutes? First off make all of the locations a bit stronger (mostly because of the world exp traits have made everything so easy to take). Then take some of the ‘stronger’ buffs that are gotten from the world exp traits and move them to a buff that the NPC groups give off such as the flame ram causing vulnerability to the doors. Also buffs from the NPC similar to how the breakout quests have buffs but not as strong as that. Just something that will make and even fight turn in the favor of the team using the ‘quest’. Similar to how the bloodlust shows the quest to everyone on the map and how some of the larger group quest show up to people on the map when PvEing show these events to anyone on the map or maybe people within a certain proximity of the event. This is important because it gives people some guidance when they enter WvW as to where help is needed and where to go.
I don’t want this to completely remove taking towers without a quest running I just want it to spread out the people that are online and participating in WvW. This will allow players to have a choice in what they would like to do, for example with just commanders (most of the time only one) you are almost forced to just follow them around and attack/defend what they pick. If there are a few of these events going on and a commander online you have the choice of what you wish to do. If this works according to plans the huge zerg vs zergs fights that are relatively fun will get cut drastically and will mostly only get seen when something major is happening such kitten is super weak and outer and inner walls are down so all 3 servers are rushing in for the cap. Another downside is the satisfaction of taking points will not come as often as it will take longer when you don’t have a huge zerg throwing down 3 superior flame rams with structural weakness and there is a greater chance you will find opposition when attacking.
Thanks for reading this post and leave any comments on things you liked, things you thing should be tweaked, and things you thing should not happen. If you have your own suggestions on making WvW feel more alive post them here as well. I thank Arena Net for all the hard work they put into this game I just wish they put a little more time into WvW. Every two weeks the PvE’s get a new patch with new content and WvW hasn’t seen much changes (apart from the world exp). No I don’t consider the edge of the mists map to be a WvW change other than for high WvW population servers (however I have heard it is supposed to be a beta grounds of sorts for the actuall WvW maps). Thanks for you time in reading this and replying.
Sorry for 3 posts I was limited on the number of characters I could use and I wanted to get as much information out as possible to explain the concept well
Good effort on thinking of ways to make WvW more interesting. Some are interesting thoughts. But… More PvE in WvW? no thank you!
Keep your PvE out of my WvW >.> If you don’t want to run with the zerg, you don’t have to, take 5 people and run a havoc group. The reason guild groups work is because of communication. Get in voice comms, make a channel for your havoc group in ts, run around and wreak havoc, distract the enemy from what your commander is doing, collect bags, profit. I feel like if people wanted PvE, they’d go PvE. Diluting the player aspect of WvW is faaaar from what we need, imo. Well thought out suggestion though.
More PvE in WvW? no thank you!
It’s funny you say this because for the average WvW player that follows the zerg most of the time you are just PvEing because you just run to an objective build some stuff and knock it down while the other server is doing the same to one of your towers. I do see your point this is supposed to be a PvP battle area and making more NPC’s seems like taking away from PvP interaction but if it works properly it will cause more PvP interaction I believe.
Thanks again for the comment though, can you think of any other ways to break the zerg up a bit and not make it PvE like that would be ideal.
Keep in mind: to win a matchup you have to do almost exclusively PvE in WvW. One issue in the game mode is that some PvE activities are not really rewarding like escorting Dolyaks, stealing supplies or upgrading subjects. In some areas the PvE aspects need more attractiveness to lure more people with different ways to play into WvW. Better rewards for some activities is one way , more PvE events plus rewards in some areas the other one.
I agree with most of your ideas. I don’t think they would necessarily reduce the player aspect of WvW. WvW has yet to feel like a true siege-style mode to me. Wrecking towers and objectives due to numbers is fun but when you basically just have people flipping in a cycle because no one will stay on defense it’s kind of boring.
To me, WvW should be about territory creep and expanding/pushing your boundaries (a better implementation of the Kurzick & Luxon borders if you want to keep it in GW2 terms. This idea would be a solid step in that direction I think.
If there was ever a post that needed a -1 button….
If there was ever a post that needed a -1 button….
Any particular reason why? Just saying things suck isn’t helping anything, if there is a valid reason behind it, the ‘downvote’ is much more powerful.
To me, WvW should be about territory creep and expanding/pushing your boundaries
This is exactly my though too and what prompted this idea. I wish I could find a better what not involving NPC’s so it doesn’t feel like PvE to players but I don’t see much of a way. Thanks for the reply.
If there was ever a post that needed a -1 button….
Any particular reason why? Just saying things suck isn’t helping anything, if there is a valid reason behind it, the ‘downvote’ is much more powerful.
I guess you haven’t been paying attention to the complaints about Toxic mobs in WvW for the last couple of weeks?
Players don’t want them there, and for the most part we have ignored them. The only time players deal with the Toxic mobs is when they are a threat to the yaks, and that is precisely why players don’t want more NPC mobs in WvW. It’s already hard enough to deal with player yak-snipers without having to deal with NPC yak-snipers too.
Whether anyone likes it or not, WvW is a player vs player game and we sure as the hell don’t need more PvE. The leagues and the achievements hunters have strained the game beyond its capacity and more PvE will not help.
Besides that there are far better ways to break up the zerging karma trains. Better rewards for defense would be a good start.
No. Its already awfull enough these days with those toxic things coming out of the ground and toxic pve mobs being lost in wvw world!
Would be a perfect world if WvW would not be infected by any PvE at all….. hey, a man got to have some dreams.
I’m going back to WvW killing PvEuhm players….
If there was ever a post that needed a -1 button….
Any particular reason why? Just saying things suck isn’t helping anything, if there is a valid reason behind it, the ‘downvote’ is much more powerful.
I guess you haven’t been paying attention to the complaints about Toxic mobs in WvW for the last couple of weeks?
Players don’t want them there, and for the most part we have ignored them. The only time players deal with the Toxic mobs is when they are a threat to the yaks, and that is precisely why players don’t want more NPC mobs in WvW. It’s already hard enough to deal with player yak-snipers without having to deal with NPC yak-snipers too.
Whether anyone likes it or not, WvW is a player vs player game and we sure as the hell don’t need more PvE. The leagues and the achievements hunters have strained the game beyond its capacity and more PvE will not help.
Besides that there are far better ways to break up the zerging karma trains. Better rewards for defense would be a good start.
People ignored the toxic mobs because killing them did nothing to aid in the war effort. They were sitting in the middle of mercenary camps, yet didn’t contribute to the camp they were in, and the pollen locked you in an unremovable combat for 10-15 seconds unless you slotted a specific healing skill.
These reasons are why people hated them, not because they were PvE. WvW is a PvP game certainly, but it’s not solely about killing people. It’s about using PvE elements to impact an overarching war. Without PvE, you wouldn’t have towers, gates, keeps, etc. If your argument rang true, nobody would do Hyleks or Ogres either, yet they flip almost on cooldown (and did before the league too). Adding PvE to WvW that meaningfully impacts the PvP elements would be an excellent change to WvW. The trick is making sure the impacts are meaningful enough to make sure people do them.
I guess you haven’t been paying attention to the complaints about Toxic mobs in WvW for the last couple of weeks?
…
Besides that there are far better ways to break up the zerging karma trains. Better rewards for defense would be a good start.
I agree that the Toxic mobs are in the way, this is because they are not in any way helping out with WvW, take a look at the merc camps for instance lots of players understand their importance in the WvW realm. All I’m suggest is more stuff like this and maybe make these events chain into more than just a camp.
I also agree that more rewards for defense should be in place, I also think that the gates and walls need a bit of a buff because of the recent world exp perks causing them to be even easier to knock down. Part of this was on a successful defend of a tower under attack from one of the events was an event of your own that is a counter attack.
Thanks for further explaining why you don’t agree it makes it easier to see, and I know this is the perfect solution but I do believe it is a start. I will take a while to get any new major change working properly.
Without PvE, you wouldn’t have towers, gates, keeps, etc.
Towers, gates and Keeps are lootbag magnets. Without them we would be reduced to roaming only. I wouldn’t enjoy that at all.
My other points still stand. Achievement point hunters recently made WvW unplayable for many of us, and we don’t need more of it.
Without PvE, you wouldn’t have towers, gates, keeps, etc.
Towers, gates and Keeps are lootbag magnets. Without them we would be reduced to roaming only. I wouldn’t enjoy that at all.
My other points still stand. Achievement point hunters recently made WvW unplayable for many of us, and we don’t need more of it.
Right, PvE acts as focal points similar to capture points in SPvP. They are areas where you find fights. More areas mean more smaller fights, as opposed to fewer areas which mean more really big fights. Nothing wrong with a bit of both.
I don’t necessarily disagree that the season achievements added a lot of people to WvW who don’t understand the mechanics and taxed the system. You can easily add more to WvW though without achieving similar results. For example, permanent achievements will not cause the same influx of players. They will be prioritized under existing LS achievements in the minds of ’chiev hunters, since the LS achievements have a limited window in which to obtain them. That, or simply add repeatable achievements instead of one-time achievements. Or, lastly, just dont add new achievements.
My other points still stand. Achievement point hunters recently made WvW unplayable for many of us, and we don’t need more of it.
How so, It helped my server out (lower tier server) because it brought more people to the battle making the map feel more alive. Also since the achievements were split over different areas there were groups that formed to do specific tasks such as tower caputures. I can see how it would increase que times on higher WvW population servers but other than that I don’t see how it made it ‘unplayable’. Different I will agree. I also agree that achievements are probably not the best way to go about doing this change from zerg fest to strategic sieging and starving supply from points to weaken them.
Good discussion though
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