Guild Wars 2

Yeaa men need skimpy stuff. Just go look at the male armory for the castanic in Tera, the guys abs are shown off and the pants are slightly unzipped. Guys need more armor that shows off their body ;D

i just love how so many people complain about this. its a freaking video game people grow the hell up. you don’t like it dont play there i solved your problem.

Implying that the majority of players who use the female gear are actually female?

LOL

-cough- But, I do see where the OP is coming from. Choice is invaluable.

Weindrasi.3805:

uknortherner.2670:

Strange how my female friends don’t seem to have a problem with the skimpy armour in this game. Guess they’re just normal human beings rather than pseudo-intellectuals.

I’m a female gamer and I DO have a problem with it. Your female friends do not account for all female gamers. Also, your assertion that only “abnormal people” care about this issue is completely false, and quite frankly, it makes you look like a fool.

Did you even bother to read the rest of my responses at all? I made it clear that I was using it as a counter-argument to Mungrul’s assertion that all women are either offended by this skimpy clothing or that they should be.

Try reading the rest of the conversation next time.

So are we in agreement? My charr needs more Conan Barbarian. Which incidentally gives more/similar looks for female charr and probably asura too.

I’d like my Mesmer to have more Magic Mike! ;D

WoW got to the point where all armors looked identical regardless of gender and the result was you could barely tell male from female. While liking or disliking that may be subjective, I certainly didn’t like it. I hated getting a new piece of armor and looking like ‘one of the guys’.

Women don’t dress like men in real life, why would they anywhere else? I could argue that it’s equally sexist to have all the women look exactly like the men.

I actually think there aren’t enough “sexy” choices in armor, which is probably why I keep seeing that Winged set everywhere. (Side note: Nice touch adding the ‘tattoo’ of the female reproductive organs across the abdomen. /sarcasm) Most of the “skimpy” cloth armor I consider more anime-cutesy, in fact, I’ve seen a few people running around as Sailor Moon — a look they easily achieved using cloth gear.

If you don’t like the more revealing armors don’t wear them. If your offended by seeing them in game then you need to grow up as when you become an adult there are a lot of things in the world that you may not agree with. If you let every little aspect you feel is wrong or disgusting get to you then your not going to be doing much with your life.

Secondly the person that posted the 10 or so armors out of 100 some odd armors and saying look at this. First off the TA armor set is not really revealing sure it shows cleavage but so what. Then you post pictures of a female wearing a dress and a guy wearing a shirt trench coat and pants, how is this supporting your argument? Of course the male is not going to wear a dress lol. Next time you post picture post all the armors, you will find out that there are more non revealing armor sets than there are revealing. Arena net even changed the ( I believe ) Arah or Karma orr set to be less revealing from beta to live.

Bottom line is if you don’t like the armor that is revealing don’t use it or transmog it, there are plenty of armors out there that non skimpy. So in turn your argument is null and void. Now if your argument is that you feel offended by the skimpy and don’t want to see it period I say grow up, also what gives any of you the right to choice what others can wear and can’t wear based on your likes and dis likes?

After reading through that massive wall of text I have to say I found one or two posts that made sense. I’m a woman and to be honest I am slightly disappointed with light armors in game. Don’t get me wrong. I don’t mind skimpy clothes (i.e. I think stockings in masquerade armor looks great), but I do mind clothes that aren’t skimpy. Clothes that are decent are just old-fashioned, unappealing and not feminine enough! Yeah sure there are transmutation stone but how can I choose when there are so few clothes that looks fine?
It’s like ANET designers forgot that you don’t have to show almost everything to look sexy and that they think only spinsters covers legs and boobs.
I would like to have more armors that are classy and sexy (it’s not so hard to do that). But since thing are like they are for now, I choose a kittenty look over unappealing nun dress.

i just want some of the Mesmer armors back .

Mungrul.9358:

It’s a farce and it dehumanises women.

Worse, I worry that it reinforces behavioural patterns that women are having to fight against on a daily basis at the moment. Every day women are told that they’re only at their best if they’re buying the best clothes / perfume / accessories / cosmetics and that they NEED to look sexually alluring if they’re to be successful, and this game does nothing to stop that being the case.

Oh. My. God.

You understand the characters in the game aren’t actual women right? They are pixels on a screen in a fictional game that you have chosen to play.

It does not dehumanize women. That is the most ridiculous thing I’ve read on the forums today. How exactly does it do that? What the kitten.

Where on earth do you live where the women are being told they are only worth something if they buy the most expensive clothes, perfume etc. and have to be sexually alluring to be successful?

That is just plain stupid and insulting to all the women who work and strive every day in their chosen profession, the glass ceiling having been shattered long ago.

I am a woman. I am a female gamer. I take huge exception to the pedestal you’ve built for yourself. Get down. We can take care of ourselves. Are you stuck in the 18th century?

I want more skimpy armor! I want my character to look nice and pretty. I don’t want her trussed up like a nun. I don’t want her looking like she lives in an igloo. (not that there’s anything wrong with living in an igloo).

Give me dresses, show skin, make it sexy, pretty and lots of areas to dye different colors so we can be creative.

Give us all the S’s. Skimpy, Sexy, Sassy, Skitteny, Snazzy, Stylish, Saucy, Spunky.

But do not give us prudish.

Mungrul.9358:

Just to be clear and to illustrate what I am talking about, the attached is Masquerade armor.

It looks like lingerie.
My friend and I have nick-named it “The Porn Bo-Peep Look”.

I’m not saying ALL female armour is this bad, but that still doesn’t excuse these examples of exploitative design.

You are media slave, because you don’t see this as dress, you see this as not appropriate because someone told you that this kind of revealing is more or less bad. WTF? If your country culture doesn’t appropriate this kind of style don’t wear it, simple as that, i like it because i like next female characters, and i don’t find anything wrong with their clothing.

Tomb Rider
Xena
Nikita
Selene (Underworld)
Elizabeth Swan (Pirates of the Caribbean)
Neytiri ( Avatar and they look nothing like revealed too much)
Lisbeth Salander ( Dragon tattoo movie)
Cat woman
Electra
The Bride (Kill bill)

I hope they make design pajama armor for all those who have problems with sexy/awesome outfit. Deal with it!

Nenthil.4312:

It’s like ANET designers forgot that you don’t have to show almost everything to look sexy and that they think only spinsters covers legs and boobs.
I would like to have more armors that are classy and sexy (it’s not so hard to do that). But since thing are like they are for now, I choose a kittenty look over unappealing nun dress.

You are so wrong, its core game, it has to be some difference at start, you willl get lots new stuff in next expansion. I don’t like to wear only coat armors as medium, but as GW1 player i know they will make new collection with lots less coats:) So i don’t care for now.

Weindrasi.3805:

uknortherner.2670:

Strange how my female friends don’t seem to have a problem with the skimpy armour in this game. Guess they’re just normal human beings rather than pseudo-intellectuals.

Skimpy female armor is OK, but ONLY if armor sets are the same for men and women. If the woman gets a metal bikini, the man should get a metal codpiece or a loincloth. As it is, it sends the message that women are only important if they are using their bodies to please men.

As has already been pointed out, the mass majority of armor available is modest, even within the light catagory. The evidence is there plane to see.

When Anet set out to design it’s armor they went to the community and asked them what they wanted. What we have is actually based on the average gamers input, not the choice selections of a small minded design team. Anet is a company, and GW2 a product. They have simply supplied their customers with what they wanted. GW2 is a fantasy setting, and the clothing design, and even character models are a part of that (You don’t see fat elves in Tolkeins LOTR, nor would you be perturbed by the fact they’re all slim). GW2 actualy does quite well. It caters to the “skimpy” and modest alike. It even gives both slender and fat models, including small and large breasts. The models and outfits you’re seeing on the average user out there are strictly the players choice. They could have chosen any of the available material, but obviously a lot of people like to choose “skimpy” stuff. Clearly they just don’t share your sensibilities.

As my friend say: GW2 has largely a male populated community. What you’re seeing is what they like. Men are hardwired to look, and not look away.

FYI I hear you. I’m a male gamer, and as much as I like to see hot outfits on hot woman, my own toon is a slightly below average height norn with the fit but non-muscular, lesser sized breasts. I’ve gravitated toward the lvl 80 exotic crafted light armor set as it’s feminin, stylish, and yet modest. Running around WvW, when I see some of the other armors, I often think to myself “Wow”, then using /say yell a hearty “Put some clothes on!”

Really I don’t mind, but given the context of battle it makes you pause to think, and in that I like to have a bit of fun. I just can’t bring myself to so blatantly sexualise it up as many others obviously do. If others want to then, now, there’s the debate.

FacesOfMu.3561:

You’ve got a great point to make. There’s also a nicer way of saying it that doesn’t refer to women who wear such clothes as what you’ve said in your topic title.

The issue of clothing options per gender is a pretty big discussion point across the forums here. The imbalance between males and females needs to be corrected, and this game has the potential to be a leader in this area.

There’s an amazing video I saw last night that was so well made and spoken:
http://youtu.be/j68VtAJWQtA

Also a great blogger I like to follow named Anita Sarkeesian will be doing a project on women in video games. Her awesome blogs are at https://www.youtube.com/user/feministfrequency

Why are accessories and lipstick less sexist than a sexy dress? Both are media products and both aren’t needed but people still use them. To me personally i don’t get why Islamic female has to wear full set of dress which cover face also. It’s strange to me, not to them, i don’t giva a ’’F’’, wear what u want. Be what u want.. just stop beeing a ’’D’’K’’

Lane.3410:

WoW got to the point where all armors looked identical regardless of gender and the result was you could barely tell male from female. While liking or disliking that may be subjective, I certainly didn’t like it. I hated getting a new piece of armor and looking like ‘one of the guys’.

Women don’t dress like men in real life, why would they anywhere else? I could argue that it’s equally sexist to have all the women look exactly like the men.

Yes, women do dress the same as men in real life, it has become very acceptable in western cultures since about the 70s. Business suits, sports clothes, jeans, casual wear, formal wear, jackets; Women fought hard for the right to do this without having any legal or characterlogical action taken against them for it. They, and men, also gained the freedom to show more skin, to see their bodies as natural and acceptable, without religious, legal, or characterlogical harrassment. Once upon a time people didn’t have this right, now we do (although people can say what they want before it becomes slander).

What we don’t have is the completely reasonable and equal right for men to do this. At least, if we do have the right, we don’t have the same level of acceptance or respect that women do. You could look at it as men still holding power over what people wear, except now after the women’s rights movements, men are holding power over what other men wear. It’ll change with enough time and action.

In relation to combat, if both men and women in earth history fought side-by-side in equal roles in war, you’d find they would wear roughly the same things with customisations for chest width and depth, and hip width.

Kaimick.5109:

If you don’t like the more revealing armors don’t wear them.

Ok, I won’t. Not sure how the OP feels about that.

If your offended by seeing them in game then you need to grow up as when you become an adult there are a lot of things in the world that you may not agree with. If you let every little aspect you feel is wrong or disgusting get to you then your not going to be doing much with your life.

Agreed, the world could do with a lot more acceptance. Except when it comes to social injustice. Then I will be disgusted, angered, and will act for change.

Kaimick.5109:

Secondly the person that posted the 10 or so armors out of 100 some odd armors and saying look at this. First off the TA armor set is not really revealing sure it shows cleavage but so what. Then you post pictures of a female wearing a dress and a guy wearing a shirt trench coat and pants, how is this supporting your argument? Of course the male is not going to wear a dress lol. Next time you post picture post all the armors, you will find out that there are more non revealing armor sets than there are revealing. Arena net even changed the ( I believe ) Arah or Karma orr set to be less revealing from beta to live.

It supports my argument (not necessarily the OP’s) that inequality exists between men and women because the same areas of skin that show on the women could also be shown on the man. They don’t. It’s the discriminatory magic of chainmail bikinis and gender-morphic clothing. Weapons don’t change in the hands of women or men, armour shouldn’t either (except body dimensions mentioned above).
You will also see that my very next post after those images were examples of where Anet has modeled the armours in fantastically equal ways. They’ve got armours that reveal and armours that don’t, and the armours stay seemingly more than 90% the same regardless of who it is on. This needs to be extended through all the models, or at least so that there are as many male versions of the skimpy models as there are the females.

Kaimick.5109:

So in turn your argument is null and void. Now if your argument is that you feel offended by the skimpy and don’t want to see it period I say grow up, also what gives any of you the right to choice what others can wear and can’t wear based on your likes and dis likes?

I personally don’t want to take away choices. I want equal choices for male and female avatars.
It feels like you are arguing to stop me asking for an equal number of choices for male and females as I’ve been saying in my posts, to choose “what others can wear and can’t wear based on your likes and dis likes”. Is that what you want? It comes across that way in your words and tone.

Halanna.3927:

Oh. My. God.

You understand the characters in the game aren’t actual women right? They are pixels on a screen in a fictional game that you have chosen to play.

To you and all the posters who argue “It’s just media”, I hope you will become more aware of the influence of media, images, non-verbal communication, and expectations of any group or sub-group. It affects you and me.
I already linked the video at http://www.missrepresentation.org/ (skip the pledge thing, see the video, or see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5pM1fW6hNs).
I expect you already understand what a Stereotype is and how it can harm a group.

Halanna.3927:

Where on earth do you live where the women are being told they are only worth something if they buy the most expensive clothes, perfume etc. and have to be sexually alluring to be successful?

That is just plain stupid and insulting to all the women who work and strive every day in their chosen profession, the glass ceiling having been shattered long ago.

I, personally, live in a Western Culture (Australia) where these messages, though not explicitly saying “women are being told they are only worth something if they buy the most expensive clothes, perfume etc. and have to be sexually alluring to be successful!”, are implicitly and non-verbally communicating at very concerning levels.
That you say the glass ceiling wkittentered long ago is incorrect. The glass ceiling exists and men currently have more power and money than women. It’s not right, it doesn’t seem logical, there’s plenty of positive media messages saying women are as capable as men, but the glass ceiling still exists and still needs to be fought. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Average_earnings_of_workers_by_education_and_sex_-_2006.png

Halanna.3927:

I am a woman. I am a female gamer. I take huge exception to the pedestal you’ve built for yourself. Get down. We can take care of ourselves. Are you stuck in the 18th century?

It doesn’t take being a child to argue for children’s rights, it doesn’t take being an animal to fight for animal rights, it doesn’t take being LGBT to fight for LGBT rights, and it doesn’t take being a woman to fight for women’s rights. All these groups can fight for themselves, and as a white man I will be there fighting, too.

Halanna.3927:

I want more skimpy armor! I want my character to look nice and pretty. I don’t want her trussed up like a nun. I don’t want her looking like she lives in an igloo. (not that there’s anything wrong with living in an igloo).

Give me dresses, show skin, make it sexy, pretty and lots of areas to dye different colors so we can be creative.

Give us all the S’s. Skimpy, Sexy, Sassy, Skitteny, Snazzy, Stylish, Saucy, Spunky.

But do not give us prudish.

Yes!! And give it to me, too!

Firelysm.4967:

If your country culture doesn’t appropriate this kind of style don’t wear it, simple as that, i like it because i like next female characters, and i don’t find anything wrong with their clothing.

See above re: choice for all, balance between genders.

Ross Biddle.2367:

As my friend say: GW2 has largely a male populated community.

So what will change that? How will we attract more players from other demographics? There’s a study here that posits an 80/20 split. What can we ask the devs, the market, the community to do to bring that to 50/50? How can ArenaNet sell GW2 to all the male players it gets, and get more sales from females?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games
http://www.girlgamer.com/
http://female-gamer.com/
http://www.igda.org/women/

Not only that, but how can we do this in a way that strengthens the playerbase, and respects the integrity and capabilities of women:
http://www.thefrisky.com/2012-08-15/girl-gamer-dont-patronize-me-with-your-video-games-girlfriend-mode/

Firelysm.4967:

FacesOfMu.3561:

You’ve got a great point to make. There’s also a nicer way of saying it that doesn’t refer to women who wear such clothes as what you’ve said in your topic title.

The issue of clothing options per gender is a pretty big discussion point across the forums here. The imbalance between males and females needs to be corrected, and this game has the potential to be a leader in this area.

There’s an amazing video I saw last night that was so well made and spoken:
http://youtu.be/j68VtAJWQtA

Also a great blogger I like to follow named Anita Sarkeesian will be doing a project on women in video games. Her awesome blogs are at https://www.youtube.com/user/feministfrequency

Why are accessories and lipstick less sexist than a sexy dress? Both are media products and both aren’t needed but people still use them.

Maybe accessories and lipstick are sexist? Or maybe it is sexist to say men can’t wear and use them, or to treat men who do differently.

Firelysm.4967:

… i don’t giva a ’’F’’, wear what u want. Be what u want.. just stop beeing a ’’D’’K’’

I’ve never seen apathy appear so active and emotional! You do seem to give a “F” because you post here.
I’m motivated to fight a social injustice. I’m using clear arguments, respectful language, and trying to name and solve a problem. I don’t think there’s anything "D"K" about that.

This is now just going around in circles with the same issues being brought up and addressed. Is there a new argument to be discussed?

FacesOfMu.3561:

Yes, women do dress the same as men in real life, it has become very acceptable in western cultures since about the 70s.

Not 100% of the time. I see more skirts and dresses at the office than I do pantsuits and the women dress like that by choice. I’m fairly certain if a dress code were implemented that said all women must wear suits the same as men that they wouldn’t be too happy about it. Even in that scenario the men would still opt for the usual greys/blues/blacks while the women would opt for colors men would rarely wear, like pastels. So, no, the genders are not and will never be the same.

What you seem to be advocating is uniformity among the sexes and I don’t believe either gender would find that appealing.

Lane.3410:

FacesOfMu.3561:

Yes, women do dress the same as men in real life, it has become very acceptable in western cultures since about the 70s.

Not 100% of the time. I see more skirts and dresses at the office than I do pantsuits and the women dress like that by choice. I’m fairly certain if a dress code were implemented that said all women must wear suits the same as men that they wouldn’t be too happy about it. Even in that scenario the men would still opt for the usual greys/blues/blacks while the women would opt for colors men would rarely wear, like pastels. So, no, the genders are not and will never be the same.

What you seem to be advocating is uniformity among the sexes and I don’t believe either gender would find that appealing.

I agree that women still wear skirts and dresses. You haven’t weakened the point by pointing that out. Men and women have some different genitals, some different amounts of hormones, and may see different doctors. No social construct needs further differentiation, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO WHAT CLOTHES ARE MADE AVAILABLE FOR MEN AND WOMEN TO WEAR.

I am advocating for the ability and choice for both genders to wear what they want, and wear equally skimpy clothing amongst their choices, and have an equal number of choices across the genders.

When female avatars have a disproportionate amount of skimpy clothing, and an outfit on a male becomes a skimpy version for the female, then this is a sexist and over-sexualising depiction of women.

Making it:
a) equal across the genders
b) same number of options
c) each outfit showing the same amount of skin for either males or females
then the issue of sexism is diminished.

Are you arguing for this to be refused?
Are you arguing against equality?
Are you arguing against choice?

There’s another thread in the suggestions forums requesting that male and female avatars be able to wear any outfit regardless of gender so that the choice is possible.
Here I am advocating for the same frequency and degree of covering/uncovering across the genders (whether that’s mini-skirts and short shorts, bikinis and loincloths).

FacesOfMu, there’s some points I agree with you, but there’s also a lot of things I want to point out.

To me, wearing clothes (The ones in GW2 are creative/stylish from an art perspective) is an expression of freedom. Now, you might say it is pressure from media forcing women to dress this way… but from where I am from (California), it’s not as you think. From my own family’s Asian culture, women have to cover up properly and cannot be out-going or you’ll be considered “bad”. In this case, women dressing up as men too is just another way for men to put control over women. It’s a bit like how it is for some of the cultures in the Middle East where women have to cover up their faces. I may have grown up in California, but here media influenced me to see clothes as freedom of expression, and it still battles to this day with the culture I grew up with. So I have a pretty good understanding from various point of views.

Of course, you’re arguing that the amount of “sexy” clothes should be equal for both genders. However, that actually goes into another area… Instead of arguing for less of these revealing clothes, why not argue for more clothes type for male characters? Now we start stepping into other territories such as representation of homosexual characters in games and etc. I’d say female characters have a lot more clothes variety than male characters by just looking at the images, so isn’t it in favor of what females can pick?

Now back to GW2, transmuting your gear is entirely possible, and Anet did give us more clothes that cover your body. More gear clothes are always great though, but we know those will come someday with later patches, so why not wait?

Mungrul.9358:

…and there you have it. Three immediate responses justifying this institutionalised sexism, not even seeing it as a problem and attempting to belittle my character in order to make my viewpoint null & void. Ad hominem at its finest.

More institutionalized sexism please. Your PC nagging is stoking my inner man-ape.

kenshinakh.3672:

FacesOfMu, there’s some points I agree with you, but there’s also a lot of things I want to point out.

To me, wearing clothes (The ones in GW2 are creative/stylish from an art perspective) is an expression of freedom. Now, you might say it is pressure from media forcing women to dress this way… but from where I am from (California), it’s not as you think. From my own family’s Asian culture, women have to cover up properly and cannot be out-going or you’ll be considered “bad”. In this case, women dressing up as men too is just another way for men to put control over women. It’s a bit like how it is for some of the cultures in the Middle East where women have to cover up their faces. I may have grown up in California, but here media influenced me to see clothes as freedom of expression, and it still battles to this day with the culture I grew up with. So I have a pretty good understanding from various point of views.

Of course, you’re arguing that the amount of “sexy” clothes should be equal for both genders. However, that actually goes into another area… Instead of arguing for less of these revealing clothes, why not argue for more clothes type for male characters? Now we start stepping into other territories such as representation of homosexual characters in games and etc. I’d say female characters have a lot more clothes variety than male characters by just looking at the images, so isn’t it in favor of what females can pick?

Now back to GW2, transmuting your gear is entirely possible, and Anet did give us more clothes that cover your body. More gear clothes are always great though, but we know those will come someday with later patches, so why not wait?

Thanks Kenshinakh for bring the discussion back to reason! Your feelings and experiences about clothes as an expression of freedom is really understandable. I’d like people to keep having that.

I think the error I have made is making my argument in the OP’s post. He/she has asked for something I don’t agree with (that is, less revealing clothes for women).

I have been arguing for exactly as you said, that there should be more, or similar types, of armours for males. My main reason for this is much like you said, greater freedom of expression for all. I’ve been fighting a lot of misunderstandings here.

My hope was quickly forgotten in the arguments about the negative depictions of women as compared to men in GW2 (which is still a valid argument) and many responders have mistaken me for wanting to take away the freedoms of women (which I don’t want to do).

Perhaps my argument can be summed very loosely like this:

• Male avatars should have the options for as much freedom of expression as female avatars have in the costumes available.
• This freedom, which is great for both genders, encourages role play, creativity, ownership, and investment in ones characters.
• Such freedom sends the message from the developers that they are conscious of and welcoming to a wide and diverse community and playerbase.
• There exists an imbalance in GW2 in the ways players can express themselves through their avatars and their gear appearance options, primarily that males have far fewer options than females to wear revealing clothes.
• This imbalance is even clearer when some outfits are quite identical between males and females but others are very needlessly different.
• Maintaining this imbalance sends an implicit message that the game’s creators sees men and women as different, and that men and women should have different rights or freedoms (these differences in rights and freedoms should be mostly irrelevant in 2013).
• Individual staff at Arena Net may not believe these things, but this is the message implicit in the options given to players.
• I want Arena Net to give players these freedoms to express themselves through male avatars as easily and in the same number of ways they can with female avatars.
• I’ve been trying to make my point in the wrong thread! :\

uknortherner.2670:

Strange how my female friends don’t seem to have a problem with the skimpy armour in this game. Guess they’re just normal human beings rather than pseudo-intellectuals.

My wife plays this game with me and we never have a problem. It’s hilarious to us to make her as skimpy as possible. Just because we can, and we’re secure in our sexuality.

@FacesOfMu:
I’m saying lipstick and accessories are sexist as much as sexy dresses are, and people wear it, even the brainless girl in video, which try to explain how sexist are games. Don’t like, don’t play.

In life i could like.. disagree with sooo many people and styles, people like Lady Gaga i don’t.

I’ll give you 1 simple point:
If you don’t like Rap music, no1 force you to listen this style. If Media spam music which you don’t like, you simple change the radio, don’t you? No1 ever said you have to wear clothes offered in game, refuse them as you refuse listening to music you don’t like, and let people listen to what they like(let them wear what others like to wear, don’t be so selfish).

2nd example, if you are religious, don’t be in anger with those who don’t believe in god.

Every one has own reasons, it’s my life, i’ll choose what i want, you are not born to judge us and specially to tell us what to do or wear.

FacesOfMu.3561:

The imbalance between males and females needs to be corrected, and this game has the potential to be a leader in this area.

Honestly, your stance is commendable, but ultimately naive. It’s important to argue balance but you will NEVER get it.

Biology alone tells you that you can’t have the same armour for men and women. Want a warrior dressed like conan the barbarian, Leo G linked a nice picture. Well I want that EXACT same armour for female toons., oh but you can’t do that. Politically what you say is correct for equality, but realistically it will never happen.

It’s important to have these discussions, it allows us to find the middle ground. Differences between men and women will always persist and differences within gender will always persist. In summation this thread is a legitimisation process, it shouldn’t be about grand standing.

It’s better to ask what you would like from ArenaNet for yourself.

FacesOfMu.3561:

I am advocating for the ability and choice for both genders to wear what they want, and wear equally skimpy clothing amongst their choices, and have an equal number of choices across the genders.

And since female avatars have the ability to wear skimpy or modest (the majority being the latter), this simply means male avatars need more skimpy options and leave the female options alone.

/thread

Now give me my charrspeedo heavy armor…plox >_>

uknortherner.2670:

Strange how my female friends don’t seem to have a problem with the skimpy armour in this game. Guess they’re just normal human beings rather than pseudo-intellectuals.

Well, if being pseudo-intellectual means I use actual instead of anecdotal evidence then you may call me that. Unfortunately your friends are not a representative sample of the gaming community. Good thing I’ve come along for the ride and am about to lavish you with some pretentious but comparatively well researched information. Unless you are too busy feeling self-satisfied, but when do I get the chance to use data I just researched in a post here? NEVER! Lucky me. Here goes.

Beforehand I apologize for only adhering loosely to academic standards, but I think the exact formalities can be neglected in a forum post.

The majority of women does take offense to the skimpy clothing choices in games (Yee 2008, p. 92). It’s a symptom of the male-centered gaming culture (Fullerton 2008, p. 139f.) that only furthers women’s reluctance to engage in games. They’re considered foreign bodies by the largely male (Yee 2008, p. 85f.) communities and have to justify their existence, are constantly propositioned or not taken seriously (Yee 2008, p. 93).
Is this going to change anytime soon? Probably not. Only 11.5% of the gaming industry in the US are female, the majority of which works in marketing or human resources. When it comes to programmers, it’s only 5% women. That’s because it’s a very stressful job in which women aren’t taken seriously, not that they’d care because women generally aren’t enthusiastic enough about games – which they would be, if more women were working on them (Fullerton 2008, p. 139f.)

And it’s not as if women only care about “pink” games or the Sims, and getting them interested into MMOs is a futile task to begin with. Women share the majority of motivations when it comes to gaming, and the ones that DO differ can be explained by the higher average age in female gamers. It’s game design, not game mechanics, that could interest more women (Yee 2008, p. 86).

So there you have it. Women don’t like the skimpy clothes. In fact presentation is a large factor in keeping women out of games.

Now for the less well researched part about Guild Wars 2 itself: The game has some problems with the armor design. Not to step on any toes but a lot of it just looks dreadful. Medium armor is all trenchcoats. Heavy armor is all metal skirts. I’m exaggerating, but there is a pattern there. The revealing armor can make that even worse: I’ve had real issues finding a “kitten” looking armor for my female sylvari because what little leather armor I like usually only looks good on male characters – like the level 80 exotic drop armor. The heck happened there for the female version? It’s terrible.

I’m not saying revealing armor is bad, period. I do quite enjoy the more revealing tier 3 cultural armor on my female Norn. Not just because it’s sexy (just because I know it’s an issue doesn’t mean I can’t enjoy it) but because it fits a barbarian looking warrior with a huge sword.

Personally, while there are some shady areas, when it comes to skimpy armor for females, Guild Wars 2 isn’t all that bad. I’m actually more concerned with how they are either boring (trenchcoats) or ridiculous (burning gloves and train shoulderpads) and there’s seems to be a distinct lack of solid “cool” looking armor. Or maybe that’s just my taste. By the way, if anyone actually makes it this far into my post, congratulations. You might be the only one.

TL;DR: While it can be an issue I’d rather see AN put in more, better looking and more diverse armor choices rather than trying to fix the few existing skimpy ones.

Now if you excuse me. I have to renew my subscription to several feminist magazines, go to some bra-burnings and eat my muesli.

//edit: Silly me! I forgot to include my source material:

-Fullerton, Tracy et al. 2008. “Getting girls into the game: Towards a ‘Virtuous
Cycle’” in “Beyond Barbie and Mortal Kombat– new Perspectives on Gender and
Gaming”. Published by Yasmin B. Kafai et al. Cambridge, Mass.: MIT
Press.

-Yee, Nick. 2008. “Maps of Digital Desires: Exploring the Topography of Gender
and Play in Online Games” in “Beyond Barbie and Mortal Kombat– new Perspectives on Gender and Gaming”. Published by Yasmin B. Kafai et al. Cambridge, Mass.: MIT
Press.

All I know is I’ve seen this exact same thread in every MMO I’ve played: WoW, Rift, Tera, and now GW2. The argument’s always the same. What irritates me about it is people don’t seem to realize while they’re advocating for more choice in one area they’re subsequently removing choice in another.

I’m sorry, but a very small part of the population wants to see men in skimpy armor while a very large part of the population wants to see women in it. It’s just how it is. It means if they make the effort to balance the genders it’s ultimately going to equate to more concealing armors all around to compensate for the men, which is going to mean less revealing armors overall for women.

Personally, I loved the armors in Tera, which I can only imagine would completely horrify anyone in this thread who thinks that somehow GW2’s armors are too “skimpy”. http://tera-online.cc/gallery/races/

I don’t think GW2’s armors are sexy enough. They are too anime-cutesy for my tastes. The few sexy ones I do see, like Countess Anise’s armor, aren’t available in game at all. Or this dress I fell in love with that’s been on the official GW2 human race page since I can remember, yet I’ve never seen it anywhere in game (also, add that hairstyle back please :P):

For me, it’s very simple:

Wearing revealing clothing = a matter of choice (no right or wrong)
Not having the choice to wear clothing that isn’t revealing = not acceptable
Having different standards for men and women = not acceptable

Not that it matters, I’m a woman and I’m happy with my running around in skimpy outfits, I like them. I don’t have any inhibitions about real life dress either – imo, wear what you feel is right, and take no notice of other people. If this is a modest cover from head to toe, or a sparkly g-string and a bunch of rose, that’s fine with me. It’s about time everyone learned to look beyond the cloth.

Lane.3410:

I’m sorry, but a very small part of the population wants to see men in skimpy armor while a very large part of the population wants to see women in it. It’s just how it is. It means if they make the effort to balance the genders it’s ultimately going to equate to more concealing armors all around to compensate for the men, which is going to mean less revealing armors overall for women.

I think the argument for more skimpy male clothing is silly as well. I wouldn’t want to play a guardian in a plate thong. That means I have to consider women might not enjoy having to do that either. That is the problem here. It’s not “there’s not enough sexy armor for men”, it’s “women don’t like being forced to wear sexy armor”.

uknortherner.2670:

Weindrasi.3805:

uknortherner.2670:

Strange how my female friends don’t seem to have a problem with the skimpy armour in this game. Guess they’re just normal human beings rather than pseudo-intellectuals.

I’m a female gamer and I DO have a problem with it. Your female friends do not account for all female gamers. Also, your assertion that only “abnormal people” care about this issue is completely false, and quite frankly, it makes you look like a fool.

Did you even bother to read the rest of my responses at all? I made it clear that I was using it as a counter-argument to Mungrul’s assertion that all women are either offended by this skimpy clothing or that they should be.

Try reading the rest of the conversation next time.

Oh, I’m -so- sorry that I didn’t scroll through the entire thread just to read every message you may have typed, and consider its implications.
As for Mungrul, if you want to disprove his argument, you’ll make a viable counter argument. Not a rediculous statement like “You have to be abnormal to care about this”

There is a lot of no skimpy armors like
ascalon catacomb
caudecus manor
citadel of flame
sorrows embrace
devout

Are they to skimpy for you Op ?

The vast majority of armors in this game aren’t skimpy. It’s a fact though that a good percentage of female toons wear Feathered and Winged outfits. That’s their own choice though, you can’t remove that armor from the game because some people don’t like it, the choice is there…

Weindrasi.3805:

Oh, I’m -so- sorry that I didn’t scroll through the entire thread just to read every message you may have typed, and consider its implications.

Right, so you freely admit to not bothering to read up the rest of this thread before launching an attack on me, yet you still think your point stands?

Actually, don’t bother replying – I seriously doubt you bothered to read this post anyway.

Call me a fool again, and I WILL report you.

uknortherner.2670:

Right, so you freely admit to not bothering to read up the rest of this thread before launching an attack on me, yet you still think your point stands?

Actually, don’t bother replying – I seriously doubt you bothered to read this post anyway.

Call me a fool again, and I WILL report you.

I actually read all your responses before typing my first one, and I found it somewhat amusing how you started off with saying something foolish, then backpedaled immediately by pretending you were trying to make a counterpoint so something OP never said. I also notice how you keep getting hostile for no reason. But hey, keep on truckin’ on

Enjoy life as you only have one life to live, if you can’t enjoy a game because of this issue; you don’t need that game in your life.

Monagan.6925:

uknortherner.2670:

Right, so you freely admit to not bothering to read up the rest of this thread before launching an attack on me, yet you still think your point stands?

Actually, don’t bother replying – I seriously doubt you bothered to read this post anyway.

Call me a fool again, and I WILL report you.

I actually read all your responses before typing my first one, and I found it somewhat amusing how you started off with saying something foolish, then backpedaled immediately by pretending you were trying to make a counterpoint so something OP never said. I also notice how you keep getting hostile for no reason. But hey, keep on truckin’ on

XD you said it perfectly!

Lighten up, uk. By the time you need to descend into threats, it’s time to examine the argument and ask: Is it really worth my getting this upset?

GamerToukotsu.4219:

Enjoy life as you only have one life to live, if you can’t enjoy a game because of this issue; you don’t need that game in your life.

I agree. This is a very good point.

Halanna.3927:

Mungrul.9358:

It’s a farce and it dehumanises women.

Worse, I worry that it reinforces behavioural patterns that women are having to fight against on a daily basis at the moment. Every day women are told that they’re only at their best if they’re buying the best clothes / perfume / accessories / cosmetics and that they NEED to look sexually alluring if they’re to be successful, and this game does nothing to stop that being the case.

Oh. My. God.

You understand the characters in the game aren’t actual women right? They are pixels on a screen in a fictional game that you have chosen to play.

It does not dehumanize women. That is the most ridiculous thing I’ve read on the forums today. How exactly does it do that? What the kitten.

Where on earth do you live where the women are being told they are only worth something if they buy the most expensive clothes, perfume etc. and have to be sexually alluring to be successful?

That is just plain stupid and insulting to all the women who work and strive every day in their chosen profession, the glass ceiling having been shattered long ago.

I am a woman. I am a female gamer. I take huge exception to the pedestal you’ve built for yourself. Get down. We can take care of ourselves. Are you stuck in the 18th century?

I want more skimpy armor! I want my character to look nice and pretty. I don’t want her trussed up like a nun. I don’t want her looking like she lives in an igloo. (not that there’s anything wrong with living in an igloo).

Give me dresses, show skin, make it sexy, pretty and lots of areas to dye different colors so we can be creative.

Give us all the S’s. Skimpy, Sexy, Sassy, Skitteny, Snazzy, Stylish, Saucy, Spunky.

But do not give us prudish.

Actually, it does dehumanize women because it reflects how our society is in reality. You’re right, it IS stupid and insulting to women to tell them they’re only worth something if they’re hot… but it happens every single day. Just look at the media—it’s full of scantily-clad, rail thin women. Every day we hear: “Get plastic surgery!”, “Lose weight!”, “Buy this shirt to look thin and big-breasted!”. The media tells women that they are not good enough as they are, and need to be “hotter” to be acceptable.

We also hear so-called jokes like: “No fat chicks allowed!”. Female businesspeople, workers, and politicians are frequently criticized for their appearance, not their policies or decisions. Among young girls, eating disorders are rising every year because society tells them they have to be hot to have worth. When a video game sexualizes the women, but not the men, it reinforces all of this.

When I first looked over all of the plate armors available I found the vast majority of them extremely boring looking. Nearly all of them are full coverage and, IMO, trying to be too unisex because there’s little to no femininity to any of them.

I see pictures in this thread of the Pit Fighter’s set or the Norn cultural plate, which are both rare quality, relatively high level, and somewhat expensive. I’ve leveled both a female Norn guardian and female Sylvari warrior to 80 and never once during the leveling process did I come across anything remotely revealing. It was all full coverage. I actually had to go out of my way and buy a set of the Barbaric gear off the TP for transmutation purposes.

Cloth hasn’t been much better. You get the cutesy starting outfit and everything after that is either boring or ugly (IMO). Once again, I had to go out of my way to buy high level sets to transmute. Once my necromancer hit 60 and I was able to buy the T2 Sylvari cultural I haven’t looked back, but certainly up to that point I wondered if I was ever going to get any armor that was pretty let alone sexy.

So, I’m really not sure where the argument to begin with is. I can’t say I’ve seen any particularly skimpy leather either besides maybe the Norn cultural (which looks awesome) and the, I admit, horrible “underboob” human T3.

@Weindrasi: You should be far more upset about the body types available in GW2 than the clothes then.

Lane.3410:

@Weindrasi: You should be far more upset about the body types available in GW2 than the clothes then.

As a matter of fact, I am. The body types bother me much more than the clothing. However, since this thread is about the clothing, that’s what I’m focusing on

It’s. A. Game.

People play games to escape reality, in one form or another.

What gives YOU the right to say what people can do in their game, and how they can dress their character?

If you don’t like the way they made the clothing in this game look, then suck it up and ignore what you don’t like, you have no right to say that everyone else can’t enjoy finding a set of clothes that they like for their character.

This isn’t real life, this isn’t the objectification of women, its a kittening game.

Lenneth.1372:

It’s. A. Game.

People play games to escape reality, in one form or another.

What gives YOU the right to say what people can do in their game, and how they can dress their character?

If you don’t like the way they made the clothing in this game look, then suck it up and ignore what you don’t like, you have no right to say that everyone else can’t enjoy finding a set of clothes that they like for their character.

This isn’t real life, this isn’t the objectification of women, its a kittening game.

Games do reflect real-life issues. That said…
I do agree that options shouldn’t be taken away. The problem isn’t that skimpy armor is there to begin with. The problem is that only women have skimpy armor, while the men’s armors are totally covering 99% of the time. This sends a message of inequality.
The problem would be completely solved if men and women had an equal number of skimpy armors, and of covering armors. If a female gets a bikini top and frilly underpants, the male counterpart should get a loincloth. And if a male gets a robe that covers him from head to toe, the female should get that robe too—a feminine version perhaps, but not a sexualized version.
The problem armors are the ones where the male gets full-body armor and the female gets a thong… yet it’s the exact same armor.

Halanna.3927:

I am a woman. I am a female gamer. I take huge exception to the pedestal you’ve built for yourself. Get down. We can take care of ourselves. Are you stuck in the 18th century?

I want more skimpy armor! I want my character to look nice and pretty. I don’t want her trussed up like a nun. I don’t want her looking like she lives in an igloo. (not that there’s anything wrong with living in an igloo).

Give me dresses, show skin, make it sexy, pretty and lots of areas to dye different colors so we can be creative.

Give us all the S’s. Skimpy, Sexy, Sassy, Skitteny, Snazzy, Stylish, Saucy, Spunky.

But do not give us prudish.

Oh my. I guess this is what you call third wave feminism? Women saying “We can take care of ourselves, no need to stand up for our rights”? Hogwash. If you want to dress like a kitten (and I’m using that word deliberately because it’s mere existence denotes a double standard in how women who dress sexy are treated), by all means. But don’t claim anyone who points out that women get objectified is being full of themselves. Don’t pretend being a woman and a gamer somehow makes you the authority in what women want in games. It does not. It makes you the authority of what you want in games. If you prefer to believe that the majority of male gamers regard you as an equal in terms of skill and “cred” (They don’t), and that wearing revealing armor is some sort of female empowerment, that is your right. But please refrain from barging into conversations and accusing people who tell scientifically proven facts that they are being arrogant, merely because you happen to disagree.
————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
Second Quote by Lenneth
“It’s. A. Game.

People play games to escape reality, in one form or another. "

Sorry to barge in there, but might I suggest that there might be some women out there who are playing games to escape from the reality of being objectified?
(had to use Quotation marks because apparently this forum doesn’t support multiple quotes)

The whole objectification thing is silly… Yes it happens, and yes its stupid, but saying that it is the reason for clothes being skimpy in Guild Wars 2 is stupid and is just a way for you to try to push whatever crap you are trying to sell.

Game creators tend to go by what the majority says, and I have yet to meet anyone other than the 3 or 4 of you here in this topic who complain about the skimpy clothes and how its unfair.

They aren’t going to change entire armor sets just to make you few people happy.

The problem with what you are saying about objectification would be valid if EVERY SINLGE OUTFIT was skimpy and tried to make the female character look perfect and sexy. But it doesn’t. There are roughly 6 or 7 out of dozens that do that. There are other options already for you, even if it doesn’t have the same name as the male counterpart, so I fail to see the reason for this topic.

Its like complaining about bikini’s in a swimwear shop, even though they have hundreds of other outfits to choose from.

Also, if you browse one of the armor galleries, you will find that most gear does resemble itself on the other gender, with minor differences, the only ones that really change are the cultural sets, which make sense. The female cultural armor SHOULD be different from the male cultural.

Monagan.6925:

I think the argument for more skimpy male clothing is silly as well. I wouldn’t want to play a guardian in a plate thong. That means I have to consider women might not enjoy having to do that either. That is the problem here. It’s not “there’s not enough sexy armor for men”, it’s “women don’t like being forced to wear sexy armor”.

This argument…makes no sense. There’s no logic in this at all.

As a male with a nice build, you want to flaunt it. That’s only natural. In particular to pixelated avatars, people spend good effort combining colors combinations, designs and accessories that often are just covered up by armor.

Lenneth.1372:

The whole objectification thing is silly… Yes it happens, and yes its stupid, but saying that it is the reason for clothes being skimpy in Guild Wars 2 is stupid and is just a way for you to try to push whatever crap you are trying to sell.

Game creators tend to go by what the majority says, and I have yet to meet anyone other than the 3 or 4 of you here in this topic who complain about the skimpy clothes and how its unfair.

They aren’t going to change entire armor sets just to make you few people happy.

The problem with what you are saying about objectification would be valid if EVERY SINLGE OUTFIT was skimpy and tried to make the female character look perfect and sexy. But it doesn’t. There are roughly 6 or 7 out of dozens that do that. There are other options already for you, even if it doesn’t have the same name as the male counterpart, so I fail to see the reason for this topic.

Its like complaining about bikini’s in a swimwear shop, even though they have hundreds of other outfits to choose from.

i bet you read the first 2 or maybe 3 posts than jumped to your conclusion. clearly there are a lot of posts like this where we have opinion just based on assumptions. somehow people don’t care what other people have to say about anything in the forum but own’s opinion is the final verdict…

i think a lot of the “few” posters that complain about this made very good points for their argument and i suggest you read their opinion first.
you dismissed all of their interesting posts just like that

http://gw2armorgallery.com/norn-heavy.htm

Going to post this here.

Look through it, and you will see that nearly every SINGLE set of female armor is almost a mirror image of its male equivalent. Browse through the other tiers of armor. Light is the same, and so is medium. There is a few differences here and there, to make it look more appealing, but for the most part it is identical.

Weindrasi.3805:

We also hear so-called jokes like: “No fat chicks allowed!”. Female businesspeople, workers, and politicians are frequently criticized for their appearance, not their policies or decisions. Among young girls, eating disorders are rising every year because society tells them they have to be hot to have worth. When a video game sexualizes the women, but not the men, it reinforces all of this.

I’d like to comment that, it’s probably more important to identify that media itself is simply a source of communicating messages. ‘The media’ is only alive if you’re deluded enough to believe messages can dictate your values for you.

Stop giving power to an inanimate entity. THAT’S the problem, not what the media says is important.

Amadan.9451:

Lenneth.1372:

The whole objectification thing is silly… Yes it happens, and yes its stupid, but saying that it is the reason for clothes being skimpy in Guild Wars 2 is stupid and is just a way for you to try to push whatever crap you are trying to sell.

Game creators tend to go by what the majority says, and I have yet to meet anyone other than the 3 or 4 of you here in this topic who complain about the skimpy clothes and how its unfair.

They aren’t going to change entire armor sets just to make you few people happy.

The problem with what you are saying about objectification would be valid if EVERY SINLGE OUTFIT was skimpy and tried to make the female character look perfect and sexy. But it doesn’t. There are roughly 6 or 7 out of dozens that do that. There are other options already for you, even if it doesn’t have the same name as the male counterpart, so I fail to see the reason for this topic.

Its like complaining about bikini’s in a swimwear shop, even though they have hundreds of other outfits to choose from.

i bet you read the first 2 or maybe 3 posts than jumped to your conclusion. clearly there are a lot of posts like this where we have opinion just based on assumptions. somehow people don’t care what other people have to say about anything in the forum but own’s opinion is the final verdict…

i think a lot of the “few” posters that complain about this made very good points for their argument and i suggest you read their opinion first.
you dismissed all of their interesting posts just like that

I didn’t dismiss, I disagree. In terms of what the thread is about, having too many skimpy clothes, they are incorrect. In terms of objectification, that is irrelevant to the thread and is off topic.

This thread is about how there are too many skimpy clothes for women, and how the outfits do not mirror the male counterparts, which is wrong.