Guild Wars 2

Raine.1394:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

ATMAvatar.5749:

A trinity system doesn’t make for much more exciting combat. It just creates a privileged minority out of tanks and healers. So now, instead of a dungeon group just falling apart because of rampant stupidity and failure, it can also fall apart because of primadonnas rage-quitting when you don’t bend to their will.

Yes, a balanced trinity system does all that crap you mentioned, which is why having friends and a good guild to play with made the experience much more enjoyable.

What you are wrong about is that having a balanced trinity does actually make combat more interesting, complex, strategic and rewarding. We can go on about this for hours, but it is pretty much a fact that cooperative play and meaningful encounters were much better in GW1 due to a balanced trinity than in GW2.

I still say Guild Wars 1 didn’t have a trinity. WoW has a trinity.

The reason Guild Wars 1 didn’t have a trinity is because there’s no aggro mechanic. There’s no taunt mechanic. Sure Guild Wars 1 players called certain people tanks, but tanks weren’t strictly necessary, at least in PVe.

I never used a tank in PVe. Not once. That means that in Guild Wars 1, the trinity didn’t exist. Not as it does in other games.

There is an aggro mechanic and, in effect, a passive taunt in GW2. I was watching a video of a very good dungeon group with 1 guardian, 3 berserker warriors, and a mesmer—the standard group. Through GW2’s aggro mechanic the guardian with his high toughness was boss bait and it was his job to run in, grab aggro, and position the mob for the warrior’s to destroy. There was no keybound taunt available, but the passive one worked just as well.

What you see in organized groups are combat roles forming, regardless of GW2’s lack of a formal trinity. I don’t argue in favor of the traditional trinity, but I do think the lack of meaningful roles in terms of how GW2 was conceived is a problem. Humans organize around roles whether it’s a scavenger hunt or brain surgery. Everyone just going for it doesn’t make for satisfying group activity. That’s why you see a lot of posts on the subject. What we have currently (formally) is not the way humans function best in groups. People are establishing roles, which is natural, but it really needs to be better supported by the game design. Again, I’m not arguing for the trinity, just for a more natural (human) and satisfying conception of combat.

And when we play with my guild, we have roles. The beauty of the trinity (and I’ll never use those words together again) is that it’s pug friendly. You don’t have to play with people to train. Everyone knows their role.

But in a game like Guild Wars 2, we still have roles, but we have to feel them out, by playing with the same people over and over and seeing what works and doesn’t. It’s not just a cut and paste card with an unchanging script I can read before I start. It’s far more emergent. It comes from playing and not researching. It happens gradually, naturally, until you’re a well-oiled machine (to use a cliche).

I don’t think the combat in this game is shallow, but I definitely think it’s hard on pugs to get the practice they need to work together as a team. And maybe that’s why I like this game so much.

You can get a lot better at group combat, but you need a group to do it. The same group helps a ton.

shyrith.3462:

By the sounds of it, there wont be a Trinity in TES:O either. Actually, so far TES:O sounds a lot like GW2, just with TES lore.

I assume you play Warrior or Guardian. Try playing an ele or mesmer. You definitely can’t afk on auto attack, then.

Last time I checked they completely “ruined” the TES lore for TES:O (TRANSCRIPTION ERRORS EVERYWHERE)

Osculim.2983:

Afk kill all world bosses i dont think so. Go afk during jormag and you will die thats a fact. Go afk during shatty and you will die. If your anywhere close to be able to hit the dragons you can sure as heck bet they will be able to hit you aswell.

Jormag maybe, but I’ve AFKed Shaterrer. Hit 1 at the start while standing on the ledge, went away to make some food, come back to a gold medal and a chest.
It’s laughable.

One thing i like of GW2 is that they dont have the useless trinity, trinity are only for people who only knows pve players and never know what pvp real challenge means i remember uo with no trinity and was the best mmorpg i wish i can see some adds from uo here, to be a real player use ur brain and try to survive and have a teamplay, nothing more, the trinity games only destroy the real base of our fathers of mmorpg , like the level system also.

Saying this game has no trinity hurts the feelings of my Warrior, Engineer and Guardian. You can perfectly well spec into full support roles and be an amazing asset to your group.. in dungeons that require this!

It really really does seem to me that the OP, and some of the people defending the trinity in here, only have experiences in CoF p1 and open world bosses.

Arah, CoE, some HoTW, FoTM.. 20+ even, hell, after the updates, even AC can be brutal. I’m an AC maniac, I just like it a lot. I’ve seen so many people ragequit on the renewed AC bosses. Yet they finally require more than just dodge and spank.
I’m sorry, but if all 5 players in any of these dungeons were just berserker warriors, we would miserably, unless all 5 players were exceptional players.

Person Katie something (sorry if I call you out on it) herself defended GW1 using an argument, yes, but that’s only because the dungeons AI was easy or the hero AI too good. O? But that same argument can’t be valid for GW2? Honestly, the only thing broken in GW2 is unconvincing mechanics. This game is far more flexible yet challenging than any other game I’ve played in the past 12 years. Including raids in several games.

Because at the end of the day, I can be a Guardian that goes for healing and boons, I can go consecrations, scepter/x and sword/focus and be a control/cc specialist. And I can even go full damage. All depending on the instance and the team I play with.
That the current dungeon mechanics just highly favour me going full damage, because it just completes the dungeon more efficiently, has nothing at all to do with the combat mechanics.
Hence why they redesigned AC from the ground up. With Stalkers having much more subtle mechanics and GS warriors raging at them. And the 3 bosses actually needing a brain. And what do we get from the community? BOOHOOHOO, I can’t dodge and spank anymore. I actually need more strategy and team building to efficiently clean AC now. I really do hope that the trinity supporters in this thread are in support of Anets attempts to pimp AC. If not, you’re just being hypocritical.

So many posts seem to imply that the current system is just mindlessly DPSing.

How would a trinity system improve that? 2/3rds of the trinity was mindless DPSing and mindless healing. All 3 aspects just came down to perfecting a rotation and spamming it over and over. If the current system is mindless, the Trinity would be just as mindless. The only difference is the Trinity would highly favor certain classes, whereas only speed-runners favor certain classes with the current system.

If you want to tank in GW2 you can make a control-heavy class and use that, but instead of just standing toe-to-toe with a boss and mindlessly spamming the same rotation, GW2 has a more reactive system. You need to think on your feet.

runeblade.7514:

This thread gave me cancer.

They strictly advertised this game to have zero trinity and the game is fun without it.

They also advertised this game as “Taking everything we loved about Guild Wars…” | “non-grindy…” | “if you hate MMOs…” | moving away from “oh, I swung my sword again” and more. While some of these are patently false and others are half-truths at best, the number of cancer patients would have significantly increased if “strictly advertised” is the criteria from which cancer was awarded.

no, it doesn´t. In fact, removing that stale abomination is the only thing GW2 did right.

Why would a trinity improve boring boss mechanics? A boring boss with a trinity is still a boring boss.

Bosses in the open world are easy because
1. there is no boss mechanic, no tric to do it and you don’t need to organize yourself to defeat it
2. the epic bosses, like the dragons are zerged now. There is no control mechanism preventing to many parties from joining. Why not make a dragons lair instance? Then also nobody has to sit and wait for 40+ minutes in order to not get overflow.

No Walking.6349:

Kaeden.6952:

There is a trinity,

It’s called:

Damage
Control
Support

ROFL, oh ok. So that must be why I can AFK any boss in the game outside of fractal lvl 30+ This includes all the world bosses and guild bounties.

No, we need a trinity.

No Walking.6349:

Kaeden.6952:

There is a trinity,

It’s called:

Damage
Control
Support

ROFL, oh ok. So that must be why I can AFK any boss in the game outside of fractal lvl 30+ This includes all the world bosses and guild bounties.

No, we need a trinity.

You can’t actually, but thanks for the hyperbole. Nothing could be more effective at shredding your credibility.

Anchorwind.9016:

runeblade.7514:

This thread gave me cancer.

They strictly advertised this game to have zero trinity and the game is fun without it.

They also advertised this game as “Taking everything we loved about Guild Wars…” | “non-grindy…” | “if you hate MMOs…” | moving away from “oh, I swung my sword again” and more. While some of these are patently false and others are half-truths at best, the number of cancer patients would have significantly increased if “strictly advertised” is the criteria from which cancer was awarded.

Actually a lot of the things you’re saying they advertised the game as are true from my perspective. Guild Wars 1 always had grind and Guild Wars 2 has grind too. But it’s not enforced grind. I’m playing all the content, without grinding by choice. You can grind if you want, you don’t have to if you don’t want.

This is completely different from other MMOs where grinding is what you need to do to experience content.

Terok.7315:

There is a wide selection of games available that limit your playstyle if that’s what you’re looking for. GW2 doesn’t need the trinity, it was designed not to need it and did a pretty good job at it. I’m sorry you don’t agree.

I’m even more sorry you think these dungeons are well-designed.

I really hope this isn’t the prevailing feeling in this community because then it means running through trash hoping not to get killed to get to the next boss is going to be an accepted standard.

This is a troll post, nothing of value in here

Can everybody please stop using warr, guard and mesmer as representation of soft trinity! Its scheme that is only used for CoF p1 speedruns and you ppl make it sound like its only way to do any content in game.
Second thing, trinity is concept chewed by time. It is time to be replaced by better tought out concepts. Where would humanity be if we were still asking for coal powered machines in era of atom power?
From personal viewpoint, active combat gw2 has is much more engaging that babysitting 1 tank and pressing heal skill every 2 minutes from same spot. Or worse taking a spank and pressing hate skill waiting for heal every 2 minutes. Such fun that was!

nethykins.7986:

the trinity still exists, it’s just not the cookie cutter one that we had before.
It’s now:
CC, Support, DPS
It could even be considered that it’s less than a trinity now – just support and DPS. (Due to CC not having much of an effect/limited effect on bosses)

One might even call it… a twinity. Or Dynamic Duo. Well. Probably not that.

Why, I wonder, attempt to remove/replace the classic trinity by reducing/homogenizing roles to (in theory, anyway) make every profession capable of anything and everything? Why not go the other way, and expand the boundaries of team play instead by adding roles? City of Heroes had Tanking, DPS, CC, Healing, and Support. That was pretty cool.

Not this thread again… Do you go to the Diablo forums as well demanding a trinity? Or the Need For Speed forums? They will not add the trinity you miss, because this game was not designed that way. There are however games with the trinity if you want to play combat with that boring crap.

Dedlaw.9130:

So many posts seem to imply that the current system is just mindlessly DPSing.

How would a trinity system improve that? 2/3rds of the trinity was mindless DPSing and mindless healing. All 3 aspects just came down to perfecting a rotation and spamming it over and over. If the current system is mindless, the Trinity would be just as mindless. The only difference is the Trinity would highly favor certain classes, whereas only speed-runners favor certain classes with the current system.

If you want to tank in GW2 you can make a control-heavy class and use that, but instead of just standing toe-to-toe with a boss and mindlessly spamming the same rotation, GW2 has a more reactive system. You need to think on your feet.

A reactive system? All you have to do is dodge. CC’s are a joke, interrupts rarely work, and plate-wearing professions are resorting to ranged attacks.

That’s not a “system.”

They are heading in the right direction with this soft trinity, but when they say I can run a “control” build, how about letting me actually control something for more that 2 seconds and then having to wait another 45 seconds in order to use that control again?

No Walking.6349:

No, we need a trinity.

MMOs need a better generation of gamers… this one fails utterly. This is only one of the reasons.

Tachenon.5270:

nethykins.7986:

the trinity still exists, it’s just not the cookie cutter one that we had before.
It’s now:
CC, Support, DPS
It could even be considered that it’s less than a trinity now – just support and DPS. (Due to CC not having much of an effect/limited effect on bosses)

One might even call it… a twinity. Or Dynamic Duo. Well. Probably not that.

Why, I wonder, attempt to remove/replace the classic trinity by reducing/homogenizing roles to (in theory, anyway) make every profession capable of anything and everything? Why not go the other way, and expand the boundaries of team play instead by adding roles? City of Heroes had Tanking, DPS, CC, Healing, and Support. That was pretty cool.

You can still fullfill 80% of trinity roles except every class can do all of roles. Some are better at certain roles than other. But those roles are not necessery for party to function.

Shootsfoot.9276:

Dedlaw.9130:

So many posts seem to imply that the current system is just mindlessly DPSing.

How would a trinity system improve that? 2/3rds of the trinity was mindless DPSing and mindless healing. All 3 aspects just came down to perfecting a rotation and spamming it over and over. If the current system is mindless, the Trinity would be just as mindless. The only difference is the Trinity would highly favor certain classes, whereas only speed-runners favor certain classes with the current system.

If you want to tank in GW2 you can make a control-heavy class and use that, but instead of just standing toe-to-toe with a boss and mindlessly spamming the same rotation, GW2 has a more reactive system. You need to think on your feet.

A reactive system? All you have to do is dodge. CC’s are a joke, interrupts rarely work, and plate-wearing professions are resorting to ranged attacks.

That’s not a “system.”

They are heading in the right direction with this soft trinity, but when they say I can run a “control” build, how about letting me actually control something for more that 2 seconds and then having to wait another 45 seconds in order to use that control?

You are right its so much better to stick to old stereotypes forever. Heavys using ranged attack, THE SACRILEGE!
Also, game is designed around fast-phaced action so short control skills are well balanced as they are. Besides, if you think you got control build with 2 sec skill with 45 sec cooldown you are doing it wrong.

@Vayne

I agree that there is definitely some synergy, such as combo fields. Although, that synergy is basically the design of the developers. In GW1 you could find synergy that was never intended – although sometimes it did create imbalance.

One of the things that makes GW2 less deep or complex is that very rarely do you need to look beyond your weapon skills and a heal or two to complete 80% of the encounters in this game. So, while there may be more depth that exists than we know, the game was designed so casual friendly that you never really need it to win.

Basically, there is very little need of cooperative team play in GW2, especially compared to GW1.

kRiza krimos.1637:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Dedlaw.9130:

So many posts seem to imply that the current system is just mindlessly DPSing.

How would a trinity system improve that? 2/3rds of the trinity was mindless DPSing and mindless healing. All 3 aspects just came down to perfecting a rotation and spamming it over and over. If the current system is mindless, the Trinity would be just as mindless. The only difference is the Trinity would highly favor certain classes, whereas only speed-runners favor certain classes with the current system.

If you want to tank in GW2 you can make a control-heavy class and use that, but instead of just standing toe-to-toe with a boss and mindlessly spamming the same rotation, GW2 has a more reactive system. You need to think on your feet.

A reactive system? All you have to do is dodge. CC’s are a joke, interrupts rarely work, and plate-wearing professions are resorting to ranged attacks.

That’s not a “system.”

They are heading in the right direction with this soft trinity, but when they say I can run a “control” build, how about letting me actually control something for more that 2 seconds and then having to wait another 45 seconds in order to use that control?

You are right its so much better to stick to old stereotypes forever. Heavys using ranged attack, THE SACRILEGE!
Also, game is designed around fast-phaced action so short control skills are well balanced as they are. Besides, if you think you got control build with 2 sec skill with 45 sec cooldown you are doing it wrong.

Ah, you’re one of those people…build strawmen then knock them down.

Should’ve tossed in a “go back to WoW” for good measure, maybe.

clay.7849:

@Vayne

I agree that there is definitely some synergy, such as combo fields. Although, that synergy is basically the design of the developers. In GW1 you could find synergy that was never intended – although sometimes it did create imbalance.

One of the things that makes GW2 less deep or complex is that very rarely do you need to look beyond your weapon skills and a heal or two to complete 80% of the encounters in this game. So, while there may be more depth that exists than we know, the game was designed so casual friendly that you never really need it to win.

Basically, there is very little need of cooperative team play in GW2, especially compared to GW1.

so this is why you could beet most content with some Bots to help you out in GW1 right… because it was so deep and complex…

Shootsfoot.9276:

kRiza krimos.1637:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Dedlaw.9130:

So many posts seem to imply that the current system is just mindlessly DPSing.

How would a trinity system improve that? 2/3rds of the trinity was mindless DPSing and mindless healing. All 3 aspects just came down to perfecting a rotation and spamming it over and over. If the current system is mindless, the Trinity would be just as mindless. The only difference is the Trinity would highly favor certain classes, whereas only speed-runners favor certain classes with the current system.

If you want to tank in GW2 you can make a control-heavy class and use that, but instead of just standing toe-to-toe with a boss and mindlessly spamming the same rotation, GW2 has a more reactive system. You need to think on your feet.

A reactive system? All you have to do is dodge. CC’s are a joke, interrupts rarely work, and plate-wearing professions are resorting to ranged attacks.

That’s not a “system.”

They are heading in the right direction with this soft trinity, but when they say I can run a “control” build, how about letting me actually control something for more that 2 seconds and then having to wait another 45 seconds in order to use that control?

You are right its so much better to stick to old stereotypes forever. Heavys using ranged attack, THE SACRILEGE!
Also, game is designed around fast-phaced action so short control skills are well balanced as they are. Besides, if you think you got control build with 2 sec skill with 45 sec cooldown you are doing it wrong.

Ah, you’re one of those people…build strawmen then knock them down.

Should’ve tossed in a “go back to WoW” for good measure, maybe.

Strawmen….. I do not think that word means what you think it means…..

UnderdogSMO.9428:

Shootsfoot.9276:

kRiza krimos.1637:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Dedlaw.9130:

So many posts seem to imply that the current system is just mindlessly DPSing.

How would a trinity system improve that? 2/3rds of the trinity was mindless DPSing and mindless healing. All 3 aspects just came down to perfecting a rotation and spamming it over and over. If the current system is mindless, the Trinity would be just as mindless. The only difference is the Trinity would highly favor certain classes, whereas only speed-runners favor certain classes with the current system.

If you want to tank in GW2 you can make a control-heavy class and use that, but instead of just standing toe-to-toe with a boss and mindlessly spamming the same rotation, GW2 has a more reactive system. You need to think on your feet.

A reactive system? All you have to do is dodge. CC’s are a joke, interrupts rarely work, and plate-wearing professions are resorting to ranged attacks.

That’s not a “system.”

They are heading in the right direction with this soft trinity, but when they say I can run a “control” build, how about letting me actually control something for more that 2 seconds and then having to wait another 45 seconds in order to use that control?

You are right its so much better to stick to old stereotypes forever. Heavys using ranged attack, THE SACRILEGE!
Also, game is designed around fast-phaced action so short control skills are well balanced as they are. Besides, if you think you got control build with 2 sec skill with 45 sec cooldown you are doing it wrong.

Ah, you’re one of those people…build strawmen then knock them down.

Should’ve tossed in a “go back to WoW” for good measure, maybe.

Strawmen….. I do not think that word means what you think it means…..

Uh, yeah, plenty clear about what it means. He completely misrepresented my argument.

That, my friend, is a strawman.

And “you’re doing it wrong” is not a counterpoint.

Unless, of course, you’re still in high school.

Shootsfoot.9276:

UnderdogSMO.9428:

Shootsfoot.9276:

kRiza krimos.1637:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Dedlaw.9130:

So many posts seem to imply that the current system is just mindlessly DPSing.

How would a trinity system improve that? 2/3rds of the trinity was mindless DPSing and mindless healing. All 3 aspects just came down to perfecting a rotation and spamming it over and over. If the current system is mindless, the Trinity would be just as mindless. The only difference is the Trinity would highly favor certain classes, whereas only speed-runners favor certain classes with the current system.

If you want to tank in GW2 you can make a control-heavy class and use that, but instead of just standing toe-to-toe with a boss and mindlessly spamming the same rotation, GW2 has a more reactive system. You need to think on your feet.

A reactive system? All you have to do is dodge. CC’s are a joke, interrupts rarely work, and plate-wearing professions are resorting to ranged attacks.

That’s not a “system.”

They are heading in the right direction with this soft trinity, but when they say I can run a “control” build, how about letting me actually control something for more that 2 seconds and then having to wait another 45 seconds in order to use that control?

You are right its so much better to stick to old stereotypes forever. Heavys using ranged attack, THE SACRILEGE!
Also, game is designed around fast-phaced action so short control skills are well balanced as they are. Besides, if you think you got control build with 2 sec skill with 45 sec cooldown you are doing it wrong.

Ah, you’re one of those people…build strawmen then knock them down.

Should’ve tossed in a “go back to WoW” for good measure, maybe.

Strawmen….. I do not think that word means what you think it means…..

Uh, yeah, plenty clear about what it means. He completely misrepresented my argument.

That, my friend, is a strawman.

And “you’re doing it wrong” is not a counterpoint.

Unless, of course, you’re still in high school.

Fine, i misrepresented your post. Care to explain to us plebs what “system” is in game designing?
I did mean to suggest that you should seek out help with your control build but i edited due to some censorshi kitten ues…counterpoint would be fact that game is built with fast-phaced action in mind, thus short duration control skills, right?
Also, im not sure what counterpoint someone should even provide when you use statments like “CC’s are joke” and “interupts rarely work”. Mby you fail to time your interupts so they rarely work FOR YOU? Hows that for counterpoint?

And i need to add that personal attacks wont strenghten your arguments, not even tone of concrete wont do it. You are “grasping for straw” my man

clay.7849:

@Vayne

I agree that there is definitely some synergy, such as combo fields. Although, that synergy is basically the design of the developers. In GW1 you could find synergy that was never intended – although sometimes it did create imbalance.

One of the things that makes GW2 less deep or complex is that very rarely do you need to look beyond your weapon skills and a heal or two to complete 80% of the encounters in this game. So, while there may be more depth that exists than we know, the game was designed so casual friendly that you never really need it to win.

Basically, there is very little need of cooperative team play in GW2, especially compared to GW1.

How is this different than me and my heroes and henchmen soloing just about everything in Guild Wars 1, including hard mode dungeons?

if they had the trinity it would be,

‘’we can never bloody do world bosses because we can’t find tank or healers, this is a joke!’’

in all honesty world bosses….its just the nature of them everyone wants the shiny stuff so we all, and i mean all (you can see this through culling, though i know patch turns it off) just turns up and plays wakamole.

now in WoW the old world bosses where very much the same however they are now a bad comparrison so taking the Sha into account thats turn up and play wackamole after waiting 5 hours for a healer and 2/3 tanks.

Oondasta is turn up and play wackamole with the new loot system in place (much like GW2’s tag and collect) the only difference between these types of wackamole is one has a waiting time for healers and tanks and the other? doesn’t.

now as for dungeons every dungeon i have ever done in any MMO in recent years has been tank and spank, GW2 is quite frankly a nice change having to support the team while taking care of yourself and not relying on a healer is fantastic.

EDIT: now i’m not saying GW2’s system(s) are perfect as there not but nor are any other MMO’s they all have there negatives and positives.

kRiza krimos.1637:

Shootsfoot.9276:

UnderdogSMO.9428:

Shootsfoot.9276:

kRiza krimos.1637:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Dedlaw.9130:

So many posts seem to imply that the current system is just mindlessly DPSing.

How would a trinity system improve that? 2/3rds of the trinity was mindless DPSing and mindless healing. All 3 aspects just came down to perfecting a rotation and spamming it over and over. If the current system is mindless, the Trinity would be just as mindless. The only difference is the Trinity would highly favor certain classes, whereas only speed-runners favor certain classes with the current system.

If you want to tank in GW2 you can make a control-heavy class and use that, but instead of just standing toe-to-toe with a boss and mindlessly spamming the same rotation, GW2 has a more reactive system. You need to think on your feet.

A reactive system? All you have to do is dodge. CC’s are a joke, interrupts rarely work, and plate-wearing professions are resorting to ranged attacks.

That’s not a “system.”

They are heading in the right direction with this soft trinity, but when they say I can run a “control” build, how about letting me actually control something for more that 2 seconds and then having to wait another 45 seconds in order to use that control?

You are right its so much better to stick to old stereotypes forever. Heavys using ranged attack, THE SACRILEGE!
Also, game is designed around fast-phaced action so short control skills are well balanced as they are. Besides, if you think you got control build with 2 sec skill with 45 sec cooldown you are doing it wrong.

Ah, you’re one of those people…build strawmen then knock them down.

Should’ve tossed in a “go back to WoW” for good measure, maybe.

Strawmen….. I do not think that word means what you think it means…..

Uh, yeah, plenty clear about what it means. He completely misrepresented my argument.

That, my friend, is a strawman.

And “you’re doing it wrong” is not a counterpoint.

Unless, of course, you’re still in high school.

Fine, i misrepresented your post. Care to explain to us plebs what “system” is in game designing?
I did mean to suggest that you should seek out help with your control build but i edited due to some censorshi kitten ues…counterpoint would be fact that game is built with fast-phaced action in mind, thus short duration control skills, right?

Nope, not going to get into it with you. You seem to think heavy plate wearers waving around a scepter like a tennis racquet and rolling around like Olympic gymnasts is good design.

I don’t.

No point in continuing the discussion, as far as I’m concerned.

Silentsins.3726:

No Walking.6349:

No, we need a trinity.

MMOs need a better generation of gamers… this one fails utterly. This is only one of the reasons.

Yes, nowadays everyone wants to be the guitarist. \m/

By way of analogy, imagine a band – your classic power trio. Cream, for example. A musical trinity of guitar, bass, and drums. What if Jack, Eric, and Ginger all played guitar? Imagine the song ‘White Room’ without the drums and the bass.

I suppose Eric could play the solos on the high B and E strings while Jack could sort of do a pseudo bass line on the low E and A. And Ginger could mute the middle D and G strings and provide some rhythmic chunk. The song might still be recognizable, sure, and there would still be a trio playing it, but…

Yeah. I’m not convinced that attempting to dispense with the trinity was a worthwhile goal. For what it’s worth, I’m also not a big fan of the ‘everyone can do everything’ paradigm over in TSW, either. Although there is much that I do like about that game, just as there is much that I do like about GW2.

Shootsfoot.9276:

kRiza krimos.1637:

Shootsfoot.9276:

UnderdogSMO.9428:

Shootsfoot.9276:

kRiza krimos.1637:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Dedlaw.9130:

So many posts seem to imply that the current system is just mindlessly DPSing.

How would a trinity system improve that? 2/3rds of the trinity was mindless DPSing and mindless healing. All 3 aspects just came down to perfecting a rotation and spamming it over and over. If the current system is mindless, the Trinity would be just as mindless. The only difference is the Trinity would highly favor certain classes, whereas only speed-runners favor certain classes with the current system.

If you want to tank in GW2 you can make a control-heavy class and use that, but instead of just standing toe-to-toe with a boss and mindlessly spamming the same rotation, GW2 has a more reactive system. You need to think on your feet.

A reactive system? All you have to do is dodge. CC’s are a joke, interrupts rarely work, and plate-wearing professions are resorting to ranged attacks.

That’s not a “system.”

They are heading in the right direction with this soft trinity, but when they say I can run a “control” build, how about letting me actually control something for more that 2 seconds and then having to wait another 45 seconds in order to use that control?

You are right its so much better to stick to old stereotypes forever. Heavys using ranged attack, THE SACRILEGE!
Also, game is designed around fast-phaced action so short control skills are well balanced as they are. Besides, if you think you got control build with 2 sec skill with 45 sec cooldown you are doing it wrong.

Ah, you’re one of those people…build strawmen then knock them down.

Should’ve tossed in a “go back to WoW” for good measure, maybe.

Strawmen….. I do not think that word means what you think it means…..

Uh, yeah, plenty clear about what it means. He completely misrepresented my argument.

That, my friend, is a strawman.

And “you’re doing it wrong” is not a counterpoint.

Unless, of course, you’re still in high school.

Fine, i misrepresented your post. Care to explain to us plebs what “system” is in game designing?
I did mean to suggest that you should seek out help with your control build but i edited due to some censorshi kitten ues…counterpoint would be fact that game is built with fast-phaced action in mind, thus short duration control skills, right?

Nope, not going to get into it with you. You seem to think heavy plate wearers waving around a scepter like a tennis racquet and rolling around like Olympic gymnasts is good design.

I don’t.

No point in continuing the discussion, as far as I’m concerned.

Cant say it was much of a discussion.

kRiza krimos.1637:

Shootsfoot.9276:

kRiza krimos.1637:

Shootsfoot.9276:

UnderdogSMO.9428:

Shootsfoot.9276:

kRiza krimos.1637:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Dedlaw.9130:

So many posts seem to imply that the current system is just mindlessly DPSing.

How would a trinity system improve that? 2/3rds of the trinity was mindless DPSing and mindless healing. All 3 aspects just came down to perfecting a rotation and spamming it over and over. If the current system is mindless, the Trinity would be just as mindless. The only difference is the Trinity would highly favor certain classes, whereas only speed-runners favor certain classes with the current system.

If you want to tank in GW2 you can make a control-heavy class and use that, but instead of just standing toe-to-toe with a boss and mindlessly spamming the same rotation, GW2 has a more reactive system. You need to think on your feet.

A reactive system? All you have to do is dodge. CC’s are a joke, interrupts rarely work, and plate-wearing professions are resorting to ranged attacks.

That’s not a “system.”

They are heading in the right direction with this soft trinity, but when they say I can run a “control” build, how about letting me actually control something for more that 2 seconds and then having to wait another 45 seconds in order to use that control?

You are right its so much better to stick to old stereotypes forever. Heavys using ranged attack, THE SACRILEGE!
Also, game is designed around fast-phaced action so short control skills are well balanced as they are. Besides, if you think you got control build with 2 sec skill with 45 sec cooldown you are doing it wrong.

Ah, you’re one of those people…build strawmen then knock them down.

Should’ve tossed in a “go back to WoW” for good measure, maybe.

Strawmen….. I do not think that word means what you think it means…..

Uh, yeah, plenty clear about what it means. He completely misrepresented my argument.

That, my friend, is a strawman.

And “you’re doing it wrong” is not a counterpoint.

Unless, of course, you’re still in high school.

Fine, i misrepresented your post. Care to explain to us plebs what “system” is in game designing?
I did mean to suggest that you should seek out help with your control build but i edited due to some censorshi kitten ues…counterpoint would be fact that game is built with fast-phaced action in mind, thus short duration control skills, right?

Nope, not going to get into it with you. You seem to think heavy plate wearers waving around a scepter like a tennis racquet and rolling around like Olympic gymnasts is good design.

I don’t.

No point in continuing the discussion, as far as I’m concerned.

Cant say it was much of a discussion.

Wasn’t meant as an insult. I’m just saying you and I have fundamental differences in view of the mechanics and there won’t be any convincing each other otherwise so there’s just no point.

I’m not saying I hate this game, far from it.

What I am saying is there are vast improvements which can be made.

Shootsfoot.9276:

kRiza krimos.1637:

Shootsfoot.9276:

kRiza krimos.1637:

Shootsfoot.9276:

UnderdogSMO.9428:

Shootsfoot.9276:

kRiza krimos.1637:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Dedlaw.9130:

So many posts seem to imply that the current system is just mindlessly DPSing.

How would a trinity system improve that? 2/3rds of the trinity was mindless DPSing and mindless healing. All 3 aspects just came down to perfecting a rotation and spamming it over and over. If the current system is mindless, the Trinity would be just as mindless. The only difference is the Trinity would highly favor certain classes, whereas only speed-runners favor certain classes with the current system.

If you want to tank in GW2 you can make a control-heavy class and use that, but instead of just standing toe-to-toe with a boss and mindlessly spamming the same rotation, GW2 has a more reactive system. You need to think on your feet.

A reactive system? All you have to do is dodge. CC’s are a joke, interrupts rarely work, and plate-wearing professions are resorting to ranged attacks.

That’s not a “system.”

They are heading in the right direction with this soft trinity, but when they say I can run a “control” build, how about letting me actually control something for more that 2 seconds and then having to wait another 45 seconds in order to use that control?

You are right its so much better to stick to old stereotypes forever. Heavys using ranged attack, THE SACRILEGE!
Also, game is designed around fast-phaced action so short control skills are well balanced as they are. Besides, if you think you got control build with 2 sec skill with 45 sec cooldown you are doing it wrong.

Ah, you’re one of those people…build strawmen then knock them down.

Should’ve tossed in a “go back to WoW” for good measure, maybe.

Strawmen….. I do not think that word means what you think it means…..

Uh, yeah, plenty clear about what it means. He completely misrepresented my argument.

That, my friend, is a strawman.

And “you’re doing it wrong” is not a counterpoint.

Unless, of course, you’re still in high school.

Fine, i misrepresented your post. Care to explain to us plebs what “system” is in game designing?
I did mean to suggest that you should seek out help with your control build but i edited due to some censorshi kitten ues…counterpoint would be fact that game is built with fast-phaced action in mind, thus short duration control skills, right?

Nope, not going to get into it with you. You seem to think heavy plate wearers waving around a scepter like a tennis racquet and rolling around like Olympic gymnasts is good design.

I don’t.

No point in continuing the discussion, as far as I’m concerned.

Cant say it was much of a discussion.

Wasn’t meant as an insult. I’m just saying you and I have fundamental differences in view of the mechanics and there won’t be any convincing each other otherwise so there’s just no point.

I’m not saying I hate this game, far from it.

What I am saying is there are vast improvements which can be made.

My goal is not to persuade you that im right and you are wrong. But by stating my point of view, and you yours, we are giving informations that MIGHT influence direction of improvements which will be made, or not.

To the OP have fun with Teso might be a good game but i vote no to the trinity.

kRiza krimos.1637:

Shootsfoot.9276:

kRiza krimos.1637:

Shootsfoot.9276:

kRiza krimos.1637:

Shootsfoot.9276:

UnderdogSMO.9428:

Shootsfoot.9276:

kRiza krimos.1637:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Dedlaw.9130:

So many posts seem to imply that the current system is just mindlessly DPSing.

How would a trinity system improve that? 2/3rds of the trinity was mindless DPSing and mindless healing. All 3 aspects just came down to perfecting a rotation and spamming it over and over. If the current system is mindless, the Trinity would be just as mindless. The only difference is the Trinity would highly favor certain classes, whereas only speed-runners favor certain classes with the current system.

If you want to tank in GW2 you can make a control-heavy class and use that, but instead of just standing toe-to-toe with a boss and mindlessly spamming the same rotation, GW2 has a more reactive system. You need to think on your feet.

A reactive system? All you have to do is dodge. CC’s are a joke, interrupts rarely work, and plate-wearing professions are resorting to ranged attacks.

That’s not a “system.”

They are heading in the right direction with this soft trinity, but when they say I can run a “control” build, how about letting me actually control something for more that 2 seconds and then having to wait another 45 seconds in order to use that control?

You are right its so much better to stick to old stereotypes forever. Heavys using ranged attack, THE SACRILEGE!
Also, game is designed around fast-phaced action so short control skills are well balanced as they are. Besides, if you think you got control build with 2 sec skill with 45 sec cooldown you are doing it wrong.

Ah, you’re one of those people…build strawmen then knock them down.

Should’ve tossed in a “go back to WoW” for good measure, maybe.

Strawmen….. I do not think that word means what you think it means…..

Uh, yeah, plenty clear about what it means. He completely misrepresented my argument.

That, my friend, is a strawman.

And “you’re doing it wrong” is not a counterpoint.

Unless, of course, you’re still in high school.

Fine, i misrepresented your post. Care to explain to us plebs what “system” is in game designing?
I did mean to suggest that you should seek out help with your control build but i edited due to some censorshi kitten ues…counterpoint would be fact that game is built with fast-phaced action in mind, thus short duration control skills, right?

Nope, not going to get into it with you. You seem to think heavy plate wearers waving around a scepter like a tennis racquet and rolling around like Olympic gymnasts is good design.

I don’t.

No point in continuing the discussion, as far as I’m concerned.

Cant say it was much of a discussion.

Wasn’t meant as an insult. I’m just saying you and I have fundamental differences in view of the mechanics and there won’t be any convincing each other otherwise so there’s just no point.

I’m not saying I hate this game, far from it.

What I am saying is there are vast improvements which can be made.

My goal is not to persuade you that im right and you are wrong. But by stating my point of view, and you yours, we are giving informations that MIGHT influence direction of improvements which will be made, or not.

Really? Let’s look at your responses again:

“Heavys using ranged attack, THE SACRILEGE!”

“Besides, if you think you got control build with 2 sec skill with 45 sec cooldown you are doing it wrong.”

This game is great without a trinity. If a trinity was added, everyone could still afk world bosses. Its a problem with the way world bosses scale and have safe zones. Dungeon bosses are better. There are several easy ones, and there are several that require more skill to defeat. A trinity does not increase the complexity of the game, it is for people who don’t want to develop the skills required to actively avoid damage.

There are probably 50+ MMO with the trinity system mechanics. Go play one of them and let GW2 stay the way it is.

Vayne.8563:

Anchorwind.9016:

runeblade.7514:

This thread gave me cancer.

They strictly advertised this game to have zero trinity and the game is fun without it.

They also advertised this game as “Taking everything we loved about Guild Wars…” | “non-grindy…” | “if you hate MMOs…” | moving away from “oh, I swung my sword again” and more. While some of these are patently false and others are half-truths at best, the number of cancer patients would have significantly increased if “strictly advertised” is the criteria from which cancer was awarded.

Actually a lot of the things you’re saying they advertised the game as are true from my perspective. Guild Wars 1 always had grind and Guild Wars 2 has grind too. But it’s not enforced grind. I’m playing all the content, without grinding by choice. You can grind if you want, you don’t have to if you don’t want.

This is completely different from other MMOs where grinding is what you need to do to experience content.

GW1 had grinds. Because there was no vertical progression all grinds were optional. Vertical progression defines a non-optional grind. Why? Because, with VP, the power level of the game continuously rises over time. It’s doesn’t take a rocket surgeon to figure out that if you don’t grind along the route where the power curve travels you are not going to be able to play the game successfully over time. And, that’s why the introduced VP. It gives grinders a sense of progression and it provides a ‘carrot’ to motivate continued play. All games create reasons to play, by design. VP uses a non-optional grind to accomplish its goal.

It’s actually a very simple concept to understand. And, usually you have those who favor VP and those who don’t trying to sort things out. Here we have a third group who don’t believe that VP is actually VP.

Kaeden.6952:

There is a trinity,

It’s called:

Damage
Control
Support

There is some truth to that and I don’t think the trinity is a solution for GW2 but I do think that this trinity you present is not really a functional trinity, specifically in PvE.

In PvE control is basically useless so there really is only damage and support. And all character classes can do both. Also the OP is right about dodging and such being vital factors, more than your class.

That doesn’t work for everyone. I agree the idea was nice but the reality is lacking for me. Still I don’t see bringing in the trinity is a solution for this.

Every time I see a post talking about why there should be a trinity in this game, I can’t help but wonder if those who agree actually think it’ll be implemented. So far, it just seems like they want something to cry about while plugging that they’re going to be moving to x game where the trinity will make them orgasm all the night long. Post accomplishes what other than convincing suckers like me to reply?

Gehenna.3625:

Kaeden.6952:

There is a trinity,

It’s called:

Damage
Control
Support

There is some truth to that and I don’t think the trinity is a solution for GW2 but I do think that this trinity you present is not really a functional trinity, specifically in PvE.

In PvE control is basically useless so there really is only damage and support. And all character classes can do both. Also the OP is right about dodging and such being vital factors, more than your class.

That doesn’t work for everyone. I agree the idea was nice but the reality is lacking for me. Still I don’t see bringing in the trinity is a solution for this.

Exactly.

I thought the trinity was Warrior, Guardian, Mesmer?

Anyway, for a traditional trinity in this game? No, just no. Nothing would make me leave the game faster than adding that in.

No Walking.6349:

No, we need a trinity.

No, we don’t. The people that don’t “get” GW2 can’t seem to look beyond the trinity.

I’m with Creeper.9360.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

@Vayne

I agree that there is definitely some synergy, such as combo fields. Although, that synergy is basically the design of the developers. In GW1 you could find synergy that was never intended – although sometimes it did create imbalance.

One of the things that makes GW2 less deep or complex is that very rarely do you need to look beyond your weapon skills and a heal or two to complete 80% of the encounters in this game. So, while there may be more depth that exists than we know, the game was designed so casual friendly that you never really need it to win.

Basically, there is very little need of cooperative team play in GW2, especially compared to GW1.

How is this different than me and my heroes and henchmen soloing just about everything in Guild Wars 1, including hard mode dungeons?

Well one big difference is that, while you can pretty much roll through any content in GW2 with any mix of classes, you would not be able to do that in GW1 with real people or henchmen. So, yes, I agree that you can complete a lot of GW1 with heroes and henchmen, but you still need enough synergy in the group to be victorious.

I have no objection to a trinity.

The objection I have is when certain classes can’t do at least 2/3 roles. That was the biggest problem in WoW. You had some classes that were always valuable to groups because they could switch things up while other classes were confined to one role so they struggled to find groups.

I find all roles of the game fun and equally challenging in different ways but it’d be great if we could get more refined roles in PVE rather than everyone just doing whatever they want…

Speaking from a PvE aspect (I don’t PvP much), I don’t feel that the Trinity adds much in terms of depth (By Trinity, I mean Tank, Healer + DPS). You NEED a Healer and you NEED a Tank. There’s no deviation from that, and without them you can’t do the content. In terms of ‘depth’ being ‘the number of viable choices in the ruleset’, that isn’t that deep.

Now, if they designed the encounter mechanics with a variety of ways to deal with, that would add more depth.

Changing Defiant to not trigger if you successfully interrupt an attack will increase the viability on building around stuns and interrupts. Adding additional effects to skills (as opposed to additional effects automatically applying), and additional weapon skills will increase the level of ‘depth’ to the skill system. A skill grants regen? Why not add an additional effect that causes part of the total regen to heal in a burst? Maybe it removes bleeding, burning or poison? Maybe there’s two skills that have these two seperate effects so the player can focus on giving additional healing or condition removal? Maybe a skill does extra damage if the target is suffering from a specific condition? Maybe the KD only works if their suffering from Weakness?

Maybe introduce some profession specific boons and conditions (Deep Wound for Wrriors, Disease for Necro, Hex for Eles ect).

In short:

• More encounter mechanics that have a variety of ways to deal with them.
• More weapon skills (tie them to specific slots to balance the cooldowns)
• Less guaranteed effects on skills, more requiring to think what skills to best use.

TheDaiBish.9735:

You NEED a Healer and you NEED a Tank. There’s no deviation from that, and without them you can’t do the content.

Are you saying that in GW2 you need a tank and healer? Because you must have a different version of the game than I do. Are you playing on a Mac or something?

Hoyvin.3241:

TheDaiBish.9735:

You NEED a Healer and you NEED a Tank. There’s no deviation from that, and without them you can’t do the content.

Are you saying that in GW2 you need a tank and healer? Because you must have a different version of the game than I do. Are you playing on a Mac or something?

No, he’s saying in a hard, classic trinity you need the two and without them you can’t do the instance.

Shootsfoot.9276:

Hoyvin.3241:

TheDaiBish.9735:

You NEED a Healer and you NEED a Tank. There’s no deviation from that, and without them you can’t do the content.

Are you saying that in GW2 you need a tank and healer? Because you must have a different version of the game than I do. Are you playing on a Mac or something?

No, he’s saying in a hard, classic trinity you need the two and without them you can’t do the instance.

I thought that might be it, but I wasn’t sure. Ne’ermind then.

Hoyvin.3241:

TheDaiBish.9735:

You NEED a Healer and you NEED a Tank. There’s no deviation from that, and without them you can’t do the content.

Are you saying that in GW2 you need a tank and healer? Because you must have a different version of the game than I do. Are you playing on a Mac or something?

Nope. I’m saying in games that require a Trinity, you NEED them. You don’t have a choice.

Not that in GW2 has (or needs) a Trinity.

Nope, not going to get into it with you. You seem to think heavy plate wearers waving around a scepter like a tennis racquet and rolling around like Olympic gymnasts is good design.

See, this illustrates the problem I have with much of the “need trinity”-like posts in this thread. There is an underlying current that RESTRICTING what people can do is a good idea. Not only are you talking about trying to pigeonhole classes themselves, ultimately you’re also talking about pigeonholing builds.

Example: Group needs a warrior for DPS. Fine, I join, but I don’t have a cookie-cutter warrior built around absolute max/min of DPS. Instead I have (and use) my longbow on occasion (fire field is nice), and my gear may be tuned for some survivability/tanking. Group doesn’t want my build, they want pure min/max DPS build, kick me out because my build doesn’t fit their trinity preconceptions.

I don’t want a game with cookie-cutter builds that fit one of 3 very specific roles. I like build flexibility. I like being able to use weapons that may not be the absolute best choice for pure tanking or DPS. I like being able to heal myself and dodge, or stand in and take a few hits when I think I’ve worn the baddie down to where I can out-DPS him.

And I also like being able to log in during slow times or when my friends aren’t online, and play the game by myself, without being stymied because the game requires that I have a tank or a healer with me to make any meaningful progress.

There are games out there that impose these restrictions. I don’t want GW2 to become another version of that. It has a niche that fits my style of play. Don’t try to take this one game away from me so you can have yet another enforced-trinity game to add to the pantheon.