Guild Wars 2

Ok I’m a pve mostly player. I have a whooping 215 WvW kills. Those were done for monthlys. So to list off all the reasons pve players don’t WvW or PvP so much would be beating a dead horse. We like doing events with our friends and other players and not be griefed by a huge zerg that comes out of nowhere and kills us all.

“Ok you guys ready? The Boss likes to AoE ,so watch the circles. Res as soon as someone
gets downed and…. Great..ZERG!…. And now we are all dead… WvW sucks”

So add pve type events like the skritt, and or a map boss that is hostile to everyone.

Key point: allow players to toggle between targetable/invader or untargetable/neutral. Kind of like the pets can change their aggression status.

“That sucks! You will have spies.”
You don’t allow them into any fort or building, and they can not use team chat. They can only use /s or /m.

“They will stand there being untargetable and then toggle/change to targetable and attack anything. Like a trojian horse.”
You put the toggle on a really long cool down. Or you add a stage where they are targetable but they can not target others. So any type of sneaky infiltration would make them sitting ducks.

“They will attack the krait and get the quaggen help.”
But they are neutral, and they can’t target other players. 5 neutral players and one WvW player vs. 2 WvW players from another server. The 5 neutral plays can’t do anything and its a 2 on 1situation.

I think a lot of PvE players would like to do new events if they were in WvW as long as they didn’t have to kill other players. And then… After you got them in WvW. They decide to stay….. And maybe help out with taking a tower. Or help take on the map boss as the other WvW players take shots at each other along with the trying to take down the boss. How often do pve players get to set up and shoot trebuchet or arrow carts at huge bosses? Not very often?

It would be fun to make all players on the map neutral for the boss and then after its dead. Have a count down before all hell broke loose again. That would totally be fun.

So I flag myself as untargetable run up to enemy keep and follow thier zerg around and use /m or /s to report exactly what they are doing. Enemy zerg can do nothing to me. How is that not a spy exploit?

Catisa.6507:

So I flag myself as untargetable run up to enemy keep and follow thier zerg around and use /m or /s to report exactly what they are doing. Enemy zerg can do nothing to me. How is that not a spy exploit?

thanks for the replay. its good to poke holes and flush out the ideas…

so i was thinking..

/s has a limited range. and /m lets everyone know. and the other side could do the same to the other team. if you were neutral you could show the characters name. or just remove the /m ability. have a neutral chat. if other players are close enough to hear the /s then they are also close enough to see the zerg.

the orange cross swords already shows where the big zerg is. if people tried to set up spies it would shrink the zergs to stay under 25 not trigger the cross swords.

any spy/neutral player would not get any credit for capturing the point. they would be just spending all the time with no reward. if they died from a mob non in the zerg could rez them. another neutral spy could res them but then you would know you have another spy.

when the zerg gets to the destination they cant do help defend against the zerg attack. and to top it all off…

players who choose to be neutral can only tell other neutral players. every non neutral player/WvW player is the same color. you can not tell who is on your server or who is on the other servers.

giving this more thought… with the player number cap. it might be exploitable. for example. guesting cant WvW. so a server would have to get spies to spend gems to transfer to the opposing servers and then enter WvW in large enough amounts to lower the WvW players to give the advantage to one server. that seems like a lot of real money being spent on server transfers week to week, with no rewards for any of the spies because they cant cap anything. and also maybe set a limit for the percentage of neutral players.

“if they dont use game chat they could use team speak and tell the server where the zerg is.”
they are still facing no rewards for just spying.

my question; how major an issue is spying? is it better to get lots of pve players to run in WvW and help with some events or have a spy?
Defend the supply camp from the broodmother. any spy would be forced to help the other servers or just waist time spying.

imagine the confusion when the spy cant tell which server is attacking (because everyone is the same color) who the reinforcements are, who got killed a good guy or a bad guy? even teamspeak wont help.

i think at that point spying would lose a lot of its effectiveness. you could not run a WvW player with a neutral/spy to tell the players apart because the WvW player could just be targeted and killed.

what do you think?

So… how about we get some 15 players with free time, and go hang around at either of the opponents spawn tower?
Sure, once they toggle, they can’t escape back to untargettable for a while. But they don’t need to. They will create immense psychological pressure to the enemy team just by being there: if they don’t have people at the tower vigilant at all times, those 15 players will take over it in a flash.
Who wants to sacrifice their WvW fun just to monitor 15 afk players of the opponent team that you can’t even hurt?
“But the 15 afk players are sacri…” no. They have the choise. They don’t have to be there, but just to troll, I am sure they will. They’re sacrificing nothing, maybe they are even having a guild meeting or something in a fairly exotic place, and the meeting doubles as a WvW bluff.

Besides, who would want to have invaders that you can’t hurt hanging at your front door?

And spies wouldn’t need to swap the server. Just flag as untargettable and go sit on chokepoints, infrom team via TS/Vent on movements on the chokepoint. Or even just run around with the opponent zerg.
It’s major problem if you try to win an opponent that has superior numbers online: you can’t face them from the front, you need to take some unexpectable route, cap fast and move. If the opponent knows you’re there, its a no go.

Not to mention that, while you are defending stonemist, it is clear your team has lost. While already being inside on your mesmer, you go into untargettable mode. Don’t ya think thats a problem?

Little Old Lady.3742:

I think a lot of PvE players would like to do new events if they were in WvW as long as they didn’t have to kill other players.

No offense, but this doesn’t make any sense.

they need to just remove the PVE elements altogether. all your ideas are dumb as they want to turn pvp into pve.

no. remove the pve elements and keep the pve players out so they don’t come in and waste slots. i for one don’t want to see 4 unflagged muffins standing around when i’m dying or not being able to fight because the second i do a bunch of unflagged muffins will flag and attack.

Fred Fargone.3127:

So… how about we get some 15 players with free time, and go hang around at either of the opponents spawn tower?
Sure, once they toggle, they can’t escape back to untargettable for a while. But they don’t need to. They will create immense psychological pressure to the enemy team just by being there: if they don’t have people at the tower vigilant at all times, those 15 players will take over it in a flash.
Who wants to sacrifice their WvW fun just to monitor 15 afk players of the opponent team that you can’t even hurt?
“But the 15 afk players are sacri…” no. They have the choise. They don’t have to be there, but just to troll, I am sure they will. They’re sacrificing nothing, maybe they are even having a guild meeting or something in a fairly exotic place, and the meeting doubles as a WvW bluff.

Besides, who would want to have invaders that you can’t hurt hanging at your front door?

And spies wouldn’t need to swap the server. Just flag as untargettable and go sit on chokepoints, infrom team via TS/Vent on movements on the chokepoint. Or even just run around with the opponent zerg.
It’s major problem if you try to win an opponent that has superior numbers online: you can’t face them from the front, you need to take some unexpectable route, cap fast and move. If the opponent knows you’re there, its a no go.

Not to mention that, while you are defending stonemist, it is clear your team has lost. While already being inside on your mesmer, you go into untargettable mode. Don’t ya think thats a problem?

thanks for the reply.

so like i said im not a big WvW one of the reasons is the zerg. i may be wrong, or it just may be the way the game is played. but the zerg caps a tower and then leaves .. there doesnt seem to be a reason to hang around the tower unless it being attacked. so the zerg is just pinballing around point to point. and its kind of easy to see where the zerg is if its over 25 and has cross swords.

if you are AFK then you cant really follow one of the the mini zergs around.

so i suggested a transitionary period. where if a group of 15 were hanging around outside a keep as untargetable, then they tried to change to targetable and attack. they would have to make themselves targets before they could target anything WvW related. so the NPC defending the forts could attack them but the spies/invaders could not attack back. if they were rooted in place while changing for untargetable/neutral to targetable/invader and could not move to escape an attack they would be free kills for anyone. if they left the area to get out of range from the guards then it would be the same as a group of 15 people coming to attack a fort. the
safest place to toggle from neutral into invader would be somewhere far away from other players. As i suggested, the neutral/untargetable players can not see who is good or bad, other players are all the same color. it would be best to retreat far back near the spawn point.

is there any reason/ benefit for people not joing the zerg and staying to defend a tower from attack?

if you had creature mobs attacking the fortress not only players and you could get easy kills off rooted spies trying toggle from untargetable to invaider, then i think some people might hang around the forts.

what do you think?

Oh, it’s nice to talk about suggestions with someone who isn’t dead set on “being right” or “winning an argument” for once, I thank you for that!

Little Old Lady.3742:

thanks for the reply.

so like i said im not a big WvW one of the reasons is the zerg. i may be wrong, or it just may be the way the game is played. but the zerg caps a tower and then leaves .. there doesnt seem to be a reason to hang around the tower unless it being attacked. so the zerg is just pinballing around point to point. and its kind of easy to see where the zerg is if its over 25 and has cross swords.

That is a zerg without tactics or strategy, yes. But there is a slightly rarer type of a zerg that incorporates actual plans in their play. Especially in Tier 1 servers. (I’m Tier 1 EU)

Just the other week we had a zerg of 30-40 people taking over stonemist, and guess what? It was a sneak attack.
We made sure not to get the orange swords up, siege up quick and get to the lord room. Due to getting in undetected, we managed to conquer SM without the full force of opponents rallying to defence. If we would have had a spy running around with us, that plan would’ve been impossible. Or even if there was a spy standing at a chokepoint.

I’m concerned about the untargettable people exploiting the suggested feature to do just that. Run around in enemy zergs.

so i suggested a transitionary period. where if a group of 15 were hanging around outside a keep as untargetable, then they tried to change to targetable and attack. they would have to make themselves targets before they could target anything WvW related. so the NPC defending the forts could attack them but the spies/invaders could not attack back. if they were rooted in place while changing for untargetable/neutral to targetable/invader and could not move to escape an attack they would be free kills for anyone. if they left the area to get out of range from the guards then it would be the same as a group of 15 people coming to attack a fort. the
safest place to toggle from neutral into invader would be somewhere far away from other players. As i suggested, the neutral/untargetable players can not see who is good or bad, other players are all the same color. it would be best to retreat far back near the spawn point.

Well, that would, indeed, solve the problem of moving zergs into attack formation unharmed. Or alternatively, just force everyone to toggle at spawn. (Like talking to an NPC or something)
Would make sure nobody toggles inside a fort, or uses the feature to attack.

Little Old Lady.3742:

is there any reason/ benefit for people not joing the zerg and staying to defend a tower from attack?

if you had creature mobs attacking the fortress not only players and you could get easy kills off rooted spies trying toggle from untargetable to invaider, then i think some people might hang around the forts.

what do you think?

Well, an opponent can already send mobs (guaggans, krait, ogres, hekket) to attack quarries / towers / keeps.
There aren’t any real benefit of standing in guard other than helping the team, but with 100 or so players online, you can always find a couple for each tower. For example, if I need to go semi-afk I usually go stand around in a tower, (while eating ect.) Or if I just want to really ensure my team wins. It’s an important role after all.

So, to sum this post,
your improved suggestion no doubt would defeat the exploid to use the suggested feature to attack.
However, I’m still concerned about spies running around with zergs, or just standing around chokepoints / capturepoints. Information is vital after all, to deny opponent the information is what you usually want to do.

I think this could be a good suggestion if they don’t take out the PvE stuff from WvW, I for one would love to be able to run around the WvW map getting my map completion without getting killed all the time.
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but I think you should only be able to toggle untargetable/targetable inside your servers main base on the map, and if you remove all the chats instead of /say then they can’t really do any harm, right? Or if they still can just remove /say too, because if you’re untargetable, you most likely aren’t there to chat anyway.

These are the problems I forsee being caused by untargetable players in WvW:

1. Even if all in-game chat options were removed, players would still use other programs to relay information such as Ventrilo, Teamspeak, Mumble, Skype, Axon, etc. Any halfway serious WvW guild would instantly have players spying.

2. There would be no way to stop players from swaying a neutral camp toward their home server if they were not pvp flagged. Even if they’re completely neutral and did not sway for any server, pvp players would have to compete for mobs with neutral players that would delay taking the camp for their servers.

3. Jump puzzles would be free siege that could not be contested. Different players will have different opinions on whether or not this would be a problem.

4. Unflagged players still take up a slot on the server. Having players not fighting but taking up space when there is an overflow will have a negative impact.

5. Unflagged supply runners and siege builders would be incredibly problematic. They would be able to build siege, run supplys to build, and repair uncontested.

The only way I can foresee pve-only flagged players not causing problems in WvW is if they couldn’t see or be seen by pvp flagged players, couldn’t attack any neutral camps, couldn’t use or drop blueprints, couldn’t pick up or use any supply, had to toggle at thier respective starting point, and if they were bumped off the server by pvp flagged players.

That’s a lot of problems to address to make it work. I’m not going to say it can’t be done somehow. I just don’t see how to do it without creating problems or severely limiting what a pve-only flagged player can do to the point it’s not fun.

There are a ton of PvE maps — if you want to PvE why not go to one of those? How would “neutral” players help WvW at all? To be honest, I’d like to see them remove the jumping puzzles and world completion aspects from WvW, just so there aren’t PvE’ers coming in and distracting from the battle.

Having limited chat range doesn’t mean they can’t just get on ventrilo or teamspeak and call it out. If this were possible I would just have mesmers go neutral in every tower/keep and have them portal zergs in.

If you really wanted them to not have any effect on WvW, there should be a ring around towers/keeps/camps/sentries where they become threats and are able to be attacked, and put their neutral buff on a long cooldown so they can’t just run away and become neutral again.

well im a PvE player and i got into WvW because of map completion and badges of honor. in order to get a legendary you need badges of honor. im on the server of HoD and were getting spanked by GoM and NS. honestly last week i did not even enter WvW because i Hit B and saw DH was ahead of us by 10k+ points. but the good thing is they have incresed the loot bag drop wich im happy about but honestly its not really worth going into WvW becasue of a small server and the fact that i know im out manned every where i go. i like the idea but i dont know about the hole flagged idea. maybe if the idea or flagged idea kicks off for the server that is last in points. but if your flagged as nutral then you should not be allowed to use any skills or traits.

I am a pve player, and really…I always found this wvwvw thing truly odd.

For me , pvp and pve are a poor mix. I wish thyey’d remove the pve content from this altogether, and then finally seperate the rule sets so pve players are not trashed by the endless nerfs that come from pvp related things ( as I understand it, wvwvw shares the rule set with pve…a real misatke I think).

And as has been mentioned, leave more slots for the people who will really be there for the wvwvw, the pvp.

There is absolutely nothing that would lure me into wvwvw. I have absolutely no interest in it, and think it is a very poor idea. Remove the pve and the pvp p;lyers would still be happy I think.

To me it seems better, I think, than trying to rework this wierd conglomeration of elements into something that pve players would like.

You have taken on quite a burden with this task! I understand your thinking on this, but really I think the pve elements should be removed….and make the rule set for wvwvw the same as for the other pvp types, not the pve rule set.

This may not bring more people of course…or maybe this would attract other types of pvp players.

But the mix is something that has always struck me as very odd and unappealing.

thanks for some replies.

im not sure what percentange of the player base Anet would to have in certain areas. pve, spvp, or wvw. but i think Anet would like it if the players mixed more. it is one of the reasons we have dailys asking… (not forcing us ) to go to other zones other maps.. all level 80s hang out in orr. adding the living story in the beginning zones of two races has repopulated them. that helps out new players and helps the community. so im thinking players having fun in all areas is a good goal. so i tried to figure out a way to get pve players in wvw. sometimes i hear in chat some wvw asking for more poeple to join to help defend or take something. but then to get into WvW and get PvE players “go back to pve. dont distract us, dont touch that supply. noob!” that kind of “inclusive” attitude keeps people away, not to mention the zerg, and the endless pounding on gates.

the chat hate for PvE/non hard core WvW player is fine. you just smile and think of grumpy kids not wanting to share their toys. you cant judge the WvW community based on a few noisy bad apples. if WvW was more interesting for pve players i know i would play a lot more in WvW.

the goal was to lure PvE plays into WvW to help out. get PvE plays into the boarderlands and maybe they will help take a keep. because right now if you ask PvE players to join WvW, many would just ignore you.

but… if you gave pve players a way to contribute to WvW that didnt require them to joikittenerg and pound on gates over and over, then they might do it.
so i suggested events and ways to not get killed by zergs. defend the supply camp from a dredge attack. Or better yet defend the miners, that supply the supply camp with supplies, from a dredge attack. Something far away from the front line that they wouldnt have to deal with invaders.

there was some talk about added more maps to WvW. If those maps could be a place for resource gathering free from invaders, the PvE player who loves running around doing events killing mobs and gathering resourses. Takes his stack of soulbound WvW wood (no buying it off the trading post) and deposits it at a supply camp at the edge of the map, in exchange for tokens or something. That supply camp is connected to the boarderlands. The deposited supplies would then go to the supply camps in the boarderlands and the WvW take them away.

You would then have the PvE players in WvW contributing by doing pve stuff and the WvW people using the supplies to pound of gates. (can you tell I don’t like pounding on gates?)

This is New idea for an event, but I think it is still a good way to lure pve players by doing events.

What do you think might work? “you are a dummyhead!” That is a cute answer but not very constructive.

[quote=1583511;Fred Fargone.3127:]

I understand your desire to fix this but really the fix is simple: Separate WvWvW/PvP from the PvE entirely. Have two skill sets not one so PvE don’t get punished by WvW “sponsored” nerfs., don’t require WvW for completion of basic achievements like exploration, etc. etc.

The longer I play this game the more convinced I am that Anet just made a very bad decision with trying to integrate WvWvW into PvE. Trying to fix it isn’t the answer – they just need to undo it. I would trade all of the “boosts” I supposedly get from WvWvW for the simple ability to get 100% map completion without having to visit “Zergland” ever again.

Little Old Lady.3742:

Fred Fargone.3127:

Oh, it’s nice to talk about suggestions with someone who isn’t dead set on “being right” or “winning an argument” for once, I thank you for that!

If there were a simple right solution/fix then there would be no need for suggestions. It would have been done. So I added a new event suggestion. The spy issue might still be around. But aren’t spies around anyway?

New lure… Is have neutral players run supplies into the supply camps. Run around deposit the soulbound resources at a supply camp for a token.
And if they add extra maps then make those maps safe or safer from zergs

Hmm… so you mean like, as the supply camps sometimes fill rather slow, give the players an ability to affect the fillrate?
I kinda like this, actually. Althought it doesn’t need to have anything to do with being untargettable, players could gather and run raw materials from special resource nodes into the supply camps, which in turn would turn them into supply. (On top of the natural, supply regeneration. There is no reason to remove that.)
I think there are times when this would greatly benefit the servers WvW effort. (Since at times, you just can’t do anything, because that huge zerg you are running with has 0 supply after a failed siege. And every supply camp is at 0 already)

And about the spies. Well, now that the server changes cost you, there are a lot fewer spies. Of course, there are scouts that try to follow the zergs from distnace, (Or camp behind some bushes near chokepoints, at cap points, ect.) but the difference is that scouts can be killed.

Little Old Lady.3742:

sometimes i hear in chat some wvw asking for more poeple to join to help defend or take something. but then to get into WvW and get PvE players “go back to pve. dont distract us, dont touch that supply. noob!” that kind of “inclusive” attitude keeps people away, not to mention the zerg, and the endless pounding on gates.

I’ve hate when someone acts like that. Calmly explaining why the supply shouldn’t be taken from a particular location is so much more effective.

Your idea for a pve map where supplies are gathered is pretty good. Having a dolyak deliver the supplies from the pve map to a pvp map location would be a pretty cool addition to that.