Guild Wars 2

I don’t think anyone can argue with the fact that the WvW experience is a great one. Sure, it has little problems here and there. But I think there is one piece that is so out of place that it is the center of many problems players are having — the scoreboard.

If I may be allowed to use the war metaphor in a limited way, war does not have a scoreboard.

WvW was sold as open world pvp. As soon as you put up a scoreboard, it becomes some sort of battleground, a match. There are points to be scored and a scoreboard that declares a winner. This goes against the very nature of open world PvP and I think it is at the heart of some of the problems that have sparked the most discussion.

Off-peak capping? Who cares? The demoralization that comes with looking at a lop-sided score? Non-existent.

This would also encourage much more server pride. Instead of playing for a win that is determined in less than a day, play to see how much you can accomplish for your server while you are logged in. Play to put your server color and guild banner on a camp, tower, keep, or even Stonemist.

Lastly, taking away the scoreboard automatically makes WvW the casual playstyle that is severely lacking right now.

Open world is supposed to be about taking and losing objectives, not about winning a match. I think that those of us that thought WvW was going to be true open world pvp are a little disappointed with the battleground match mentality that is dominating WvW right now.

I think the scoreboard is there for matchmaking, to make it so that “good” servers are separated from “bad” servers (may it be that they lack in activity or just don’t have the community to perform well in RvR) so that servers who are lacking don’t get completely stomped every day by servers who are better.

I agree ,though, that the scoreboard gives a different competition than just holding the zones (which is the kind of RvR I’m used to aswell), as people see the score and not just that keeps/camps/castles must be taken then defended just for the hell of it to show the other servers who’s boss.

I don’t think the scoreboard is all evil, either. As the matchmaking will eventually move you up and down a ladder depending on your wins/losses. The more you win the higher you will get, ofcourse, and this will also determine how “good” your server is. So there can actually be greater purpose of realmpride (serverpride) if you put a goal to move your server up the ladder, until you eventually, with determination, skill and dirty tricks/strategies (some strategies are like dirty tricks) reach the highest point of the ladder and can call yourself numero uno (huehuehue) and sit there defending your highest spot on the ladder, looking down on other servers and mock them for being inferior until you (maybe, eventually) get knocked down from the first place and have to work to get number one and restore some pride.

Just my two cents, sorry for rambling

It’s a fair point. Keep the scores but hide them.

Planetside never had a scoreboard. DAOC never had a scoreboard. Battleground Europe never had a scoreboard. Does WvW need a scoreboard?

They could still track it for server matching purposes but I don’t know that seeing the score does anything for us except cause more problems than it fixes (what DOES it fix, anyway).

This suggestion sounds just like the ill-fated ideas to not keep score for sports games or making sure everyone gets a trophy. I do not agree with those ideas or yours, which only serve to reduce competition to protect people from feeling bad about themselves for losing.

Speaking for myself, I find myself logging into GW2 on a daily basis because I want to help make sure my server remains ahead in the scores. If there was no scoreboard I would probably lose a large amount of interest in this game in general, and possibly enough to cause me to stop playing and not purchase future expansions.

flags.6523:

Speaking for myself, I find myself logging into GW2 on a daily basis because I want to help make sure my server remains ahead in the scores.

In other words, if you were too far behind in score, especially with the reset coming up, you’d quit. You’re actually a representative of the problem we’d like to fix.

I want to play 7 days a week, not just the ones where we have good population because we’re winning or close to it.

Nope, not what I’m saying at all. Allow me to simplify my thoughts:

1. I like the scoreboard, and believe it enhances competition and server pride. Taking it out is not worth the harm to a competitive environment just because some people might get their feelings hurt when they’re on the losing side.

2. If the scoreboard was taken out, anet would likely lose me as a customer for the cash shop and future expansions.

This is a realy great idea! i mean whats the point of having a scoreboard when WvW isent competetive or anything near E-sports like it was adverticed, that will only happen in games like LOL, Hon, starcraft ect where you start at an equal footing, with exactly the same amount of players at any given time, this is the solution that will solve everyones problems in WvW a realy easy fix also, and french people would also sleep alot better, starting to worry about their health :/

Im all in for this idea!

I agree WvW would be a better and more exciting experience without a scoreboard, and also without a potential points indicator.
Just announce the scores and winners at the end of the games

flags.6523:

Nope, not what I’m saying at all. Allow me to simplify my thoughts:

1. I like the scoreboard, and believe it enhances competition and server pride. Taking it out is not worth the harm to a competitive environment just because some people might get their feelings hurt when they’re on the losing side.

2. If the scoreboard was taken out, anet would likely lose me as a customer for the cash shop and future expansions.

Thats the thing WvW isent competitive at all its who got the greatest numbers wins, its a win/win solution think about it.

Oh god please no. The score board helps people understand there is more to WvW than just running around 5 for min chasing asuras to their death…
There is going to be more and more organisation and strategy revolving around the WvW, removing the score board would just make it a zone to farm some red without any objective? What’s next your gonna hide the map so you don’t know that you’re overwhelmed. Don’t turn this into a casual WOW open PvP zone where there is no “skill” and colaboration required.
I cannot even argue why this would be so bad but I know for sure I would stop playing if such a thing was to happen. I’m in a server that is often dominated yet I still enjoy playing it.
The scoreboard is here to make every single player play as part of community that is striving for excellence through better communication, strategy, and organisation. Don’t dumb the game down just to hide the truth from the spineless quitters. If you stop playing WvW just because you’re behind then you should probably go back to PvE …

WvW is about killing your enemy.
It’s about fun. This is and never will be an e-sport.

We didn’t need scoreboards in DAoC or Warhammer. Both of which are known amongst pvp enthusiasts as the best RvR / Open World dynamic PvP scenarios to be found in any game.

People play now to flip objectives – not to kill your enemy. It’s a point meta-game that detracts from crushing your opponent.

Uh no. Removing the scoreboard would be such a bad idea.

removing scoreboard = wvw worthless IMO, or not motivating enough

OP you deserve a medal, you simply NAILED it.

For me an my guild we don’t care about some artificial scoreboard. What we do care about in order is:

1. Good fights.
2. Access to content because we hold a particular objective (exclusive dungeons, world areas, etc)

Scoreboard is artificial and forced and really has no place in open PvP.

Thats the thing WvW isent competitive at all its who got the greatest numbers wins, its a win/win solution think about it.

^ This.

WvW is not a week-long “competition” for the vast majority of servers. It’s something you go into and have fun in for a while and you have to ignore the scoreboard because all it really indicates is which server has the greatest 24/7 presence.

If you’re a top-3 server, you can enjoy a real 24/7 competition along with your 3 hour queues.

For the rest of it, it’s a runaway scoring situation every single day when it comes down to simple population advantage. The score, in these cases, is harmful to the community.

WvW is only thing keeping me playing GW2 right now, due to the horrible lack of end-game content. If A-net removes the scoreboard, i’ll be out for good. PvP has to be about a balance of both fun AND COMPETITION.

Reducing the amount of competition reduces the amount of fun as well.

Ambrosiaa.6054:

WvW is only thing keeping me playing GW2 right now, due to the horrible lack of end-game content. If A-net removes the scoreboard, i’ll be out for good. PvP has to be about a balance of both fun AND COMPETITION.

Reducing the amount of competition reduces the amount of fun as well.

I concur on everything, including the fact that WvW is the only thing keeping me in due to the dearth of meaningful endgame content.

I dont think having the scoreboard creates the problems mentioned in the OP. For those that get disheartened by the score…stop looking. There, you no longer have a scoreboard. It’s not like it is in your face all the time…

Yup lose the scoreboard, play sPvP if you care about having a better score.

Anything that will stop this 2 worlds ally to stomp out the 3rd so they can then just play rock paper scissors for who gets 1st and 2nd.

thats what i already posted over and over here.

just hide the score and the ranking, and bring the fun back to the moment you play.

hyttemaier.7950:

flags.6523:

Nope, not what I’m saying at all. Allow me to simplify my thoughts:

1. I like the scoreboard, and believe it enhances competition and server pride. Taking it out is not worth the harm to a competitive environment just because some people might get their feelings hurt when they’re on the losing side.

2. If the scoreboard was taken out, anet would likely lose me as a customer for the cash shop and future expansions.

Thats the thing WvW isent competitive at all its who got the greatest numbers wins, its a win/win solution think about it.

Being how theres a cap on wvw thats not true. Numbers are pretty equal except at night they can be skewed.

The score is important for matchmaking and the ranking is important for server pride and determining who the “best” are overall.

However, there is no reason to show it until the last 24h of a match.

A-net just did not think i through like may things.

My signiture is relevant.

@ramza,
indeed its need for the matchups but, just make it hidden.

there are hidden matchmaking systems in like every single other game, why we need a ladder in something stupidly open like wvw? i dont see the point here.

give fair conditions at every time and do a ladder (which just works with fair conditions) or dont have a ladder and just play for the fun.
this forum is full of “why the hell they are #1 , we are clearly, cause we have +20point ticks in primetime” and stuff,
that just comes from a compative thought because of the ladder.
keep the pve-bonus system to get, keep the orbs too, keep the calculation for match makting. just hide the total score chart and delete the “ladder”.

Agreed. The scoreboard makes it look less like a war and more like a match. That’s why so many people ask for better balancing and means to prevent night-capping.

Remove the scoreboard (or make it hidden) and change the power of the mists buff to be based on how long certain objectives are held. The bonuses could be very big (like 50% server-wide) but require objectives to be held for very long. All buffs being non-combat related of course (Like crafting crit chance, karma or magic find).

the lack of scoreboard will lead most ppl to assume it’s a PvE zone with enemies in it. Seriously – how do you want ppl to compete if the reward isn’t just in front of their noses.
This is what will happen without scoreboards: ppl will get into Borderlands – see that their camps / keeps are taken – assume that their server is getting farmed this week – leave the zone in fear of repair bills for trying to do ‘anything’ outside his safe zone.
This is already in place often – but at least 30% of those ppl look at the scoreboard and ‘try to fight for the second place’. I ‘hear’ it so often it’s weird actually. The problem isn’t with the scoreboard – it’s with the amount of effort u need to put into pushing back the winning side / to find any real ressistance while u’re on the winning side.

No, removing the scoreboard would be silly.

WvW is already casual. You queue up, follow a Zerg or form a small group… And you just play. Seek out kills or go cap points. If the server is doing bad, just do a jumping puzzle or go elsewhere. It’s only as competitive as you make it. PvP isn’t casual, there is always going to be someone trying to one-up the others. It’s human nature.

Casual and relax play belongs in PvE. xD

WvW is broken, there are no reasons as to why other than it is not developed well AT ALL. In theory it should be great but in reality and in practice it isn’t.

It is zerg on empty keeps 55% of the time. Unorganized group versus unorganized group 20% of the time, blasting keeps with a siege 5% of the time, PvE stuff 15% of the time, defending a keep against a zerg 4% of the time. And MAYBE 1% of the time it is an actual organized fight where strategy might come into play.

People that like this WvW are guys who either dont know any better or never played in any sort of GOOD PvP. The only difference between this and Aterac Valley or the Ettenmoors is that there are sieges options and keeps, towers, castles have doors. Throw some doors and some siege in WoW or Lotro and you would have the same sort of mess you have now in GW2.

I have 2 accounts and my wife has one, we spent last week randomly going to different tiered battle groups. What we found was what I expected and very telling. Of the 8 north American tiers we went to (thats ll of them BTW), none, zero, nada, had a queue. Most were completely deserted at varying hours of the day, and all but 2 had scores completely out of control. Thus I wold suspect the reason why no one was playing.

The only ‘decent’ time I would say is right after server resets when everyone thinks thy have a chance. After that then the excitement falls of greatly. So for people to continually bury their heads in the sand and say WvW is a ‘great experience’ just dont get it. Nor will it help getting things changed.

If anything I would say people should be boycotting that place until things get fixed. If people still go in and they (the developers) dont think anything is wrong other than the grumblings of a bunch of forum whiners, nothing will ever change. But I suspect the numbers are very apparent to them by now. But I dont see any changes forthcoming especially after that post by that German guy with the Anet credentials.

For the people saying it removes the competition:

Make things objective based instead of score based. Recquire that your server holds certain objectives to be able to run a certain dungeon or kill a certain world boss. Maybe there can be node farms you can farm from certain objectives being held long enough.

Use the score for matchmaking, but otherwise there is no need for it. The current score system / bonuses is too fundamentally flawed to work over long periods of time (2 weeks). It would work in a 30 minutes BG, but this is NOT a 30 minute BG.

I would keep the pie chart display and the current point income display (“+195”).

Those are the only really competitive sections of the scoreboard — that is, those are the sections we, individually, can do something about.

The total score is not competitive at all. There’s nothing I can do about my server getting sacked at 5am every night. Fighting harder or fighting smarter will do nothing to change that. I can only impact the current pie chart. That’s all that needs to be displayed.

The people saying they’d quit without a score are the same people who quit when the score is bad (or hopeless). They are displaying the exact problem we would like to eliminate. WvW will be hard to ever balance when it’s filled with “fair weather players” who come and go based mostly on what the scoreboard says.

Slamz, this is the second time you’ve drawn a correlation between the people that want to keep the scoreboard with people that quit when their server is losing. Frankly, you have nothing to indicate your statement is true, and as one of the people you’re referring to, I’m saying you’re wrong.

Based on what I’ve seen and heard in game, folks who WvW love fighting towards an end goal (even if it’s just for 2nd place). And those who are advocating change in this thread represent a small portion of the overall population.

cue the care bears….

Flags, I don’t see what other conclusion you can come to.

“I play for competition”, “I’d quit without scores”. What do you think these people do when their server is behind by 80,000 points on Thursday, sitting in 3rd place with no hope of making 2nd? Do you think they continue to play?

Queue times suggest the answer is “no”. People fleeing losing servers to stand in line at the queues of winning servers also suggests the answer is “no”.

If you want evidence, look no further than the queue times of the top servers. People flock to them purely because of what it says on the server score. They may actually get as good or better of a prime-time fight on Kaineng but Kaineng doesn’t win on the scoreboard, so you won’t find them there.

That is the ultimate problem of fighting towards an end-goal: it’s only a positive thing if it’s seen as achievable. It works against you if its seen as getting out of reach. Queues are packed on Friday and after a bad weekend, there are no queues at all.