Guild Wars 2

So I am making this post purely for you guys to cmoment things arena net can do to make that 15 vs 40 possible once again and make zerg busting an actual thing once again. So guys please feel free to post your ideas!
First few things that come in my mind are:

1. Make stab the way it was 2 years ago. The latest stab change was good but it still favors 40 man blobs more than the 15 and especially with this cc limits now days.
2. Raise the amount of people cc hits like from 10 to 15 or 20 at least.
3. Rework conditions for WvW.
4. Rework certain classes like revs which is completely broken as kitten
5. Bring back hammer trains qq

Guy’s leave your ideas in comment and pls keep the post clean and drama out.

Not that i disagree with this post, i support that a blob should not be unstoppable unless meeting another equally large if not larger blob, question is how do you break that? What i do strongly disagree with is your rev statement…my friend..are you going to ignore mesmers which are beyond broken and even daredevils? I know i know you said certain classes..but still i am annoyed by the fact people jumping on rev, which is slowly becoming what warrior was pre last seasonal patch, nerfed into the ground. and completely overlook mesmers which as you stated…completely broken as kitten.

I love my herald, I even dolled her up pretty. Please don’t nerf her to the ground, Anet. She is not broken at all. If and when nerf to boons does come, please spare a thought for the herald and ask yourself what it is supposed to do

15 vs 40 was possible once because it was 15 people with secret raid builds and a hardcore commander vs 40 people on random PvE builds following a commander that had no idea what he was doing. The game has matured beyond that now. Today you might have the same 15 man setup, but those 40 people will probably consist of veteran GWEN raiders on a very experienced commander. 15 vs 40 all things equal should not be possible.

Funny thing though, it still sort of is. Just not open field with a wipe.

But you can never have the first thing back.

If you recall, that wasn’t just before stab was changed, it was from a time before stats were removed from traitlines, a time before everyone just used the same optimized weapon/armor stats per role rather than per class.

Think about that for a second. The stats were removed from traitlines in order to try to open up builds for each class. Instead players now just think, “I’m going to build for frontline so I need X gear” no matter the class.

Build diversity as a whole was led to a nearby ditch, shot in the back of the head, shoved in that ditch, and then burned.

The name of the game isn’t out-damaging or suddenly blowing your opponent up anymore if you’re a smaller group, that used to work pretty well a while ago, you’d have loads of front-loaded damage and plenty of back-load to reinforce it. Hammertrains did damage but it could also take some before having to back up, even under heavy pressure. Now it’s about 3 seconds in the kitten tops against a group over twice your size, and that’s with extremely tanky comps, the minstrel, magi, cleric, nomad frontline comps that are extremely hard to take down.
It’s become who can outsustain the other group first rather than who can surprise and bomb the other group first. And while the surprise explosion was a bit of a buzzkill if the other group reacted poorly, it provided more excitement than endless rounds of hitting Unobtanium walls with pool noodles and toothpicks.

Tank up really really hard if you’re front, have the back stack as much damage as they can while still being able to take some hits, and that’s the name of the game. Sustained damage from back, hilariously sustain heavy builds in the front.
(Make group Warrior great again)

Sure it’s possible. Just go into EotM!

As someone else pointed, it’s not just the stab change that make it harder but also the fact that it was 40 disorganized uplevel and pve build VS 15 very organized and well geared level 80 players on voice comm.

When the karma train left for EotM, it felt like there was a lot less dead weight in the WvW zerg. Zerg busting was mostly karma train busting in my opinion.

Omega Zoa.3859:

Not that i disagree with this post, i support that a blob should not be unstoppable unless meeting another equally large if not larger blob, question is how do you break that? What i do strongly disagree with is your rev statement…my friend..are you going to ignore mesmers which are beyond broken and even daredevils? I know i know you said certain classes..but still i am annoyed by the fact people jumping on rev, which is slowly becoming what warrior was pre last seasonal patch, nerfed into the ground. and completely overlook mesmers which as you stated…completely broken as kitten.

I can’t say much about mesmers because I do not play 1. Regarding daredevil though??? I main 1 and the only thing we are broken at is Ganking low health people and or running away, not doing stupid high aoe dmg from 1200 away and also not sharing passively 8 stacks of might or protection. Guild grps are running around with 40+ seconds of protection and high uptime resistance, something a broken daredevil can not do.

Hell, the revenant still has gm traits that don’t actually do what the traits description says it does (pulsating pestilence in corruption for example.) Revenant is missing the polish other classes have simply from being in the game since launch. Fix stab Anet. Will go a long way for skill groups like op mentions.

Dawdler.8521:

15 vs 40 was possible once because it was 15 people with secret raid builds and a hardcore commander vs 40 people on random PvE builds following a commander that had no idea what he was doing. The game has matured beyond that now. Today you might have the same 15 man setup, but those 40 people will probably consist of veteran GWEN raiders on a very experienced commander. 15 vs 40 all things equal should not be possible.

Funny thing though, it still sort of is. Just not open field with a wipe.

But you can never have the first thing back.

I DO think 15 vs 40 should definitely be possible with all things equal if the game put more emphasis on player skill than on luck. That is part of the problem. I know .. people complain about " twitch based" but it isn’t just that. It should be based more on class/ build/ party knowledge and ability to play those classes well, where you have numerous options, not just one or two OP builds. To be able to read the battlefield , what your squad and the enemy squad is doing and make the appropriate adjustments and perfect your timing to be able to break them. Where you have numerous methods , build options, and party comps to counter and be effective. We aren’t given that at all currently, and you do not even have to use strategy or control the battlefield really to win. It has been dumbed down to the point that if you put a 4 year old on the right class, build, and party they could fight without worrying about dying. They are trying to remove all the skill and thinking from the game mode and as long as you hit the magic numbers you win. That is just lame.

I like the idea in concept. In execution though this is going to be very tough to pull off based on many of the comments already in this thread. Are we talking open field? Two groups with equal skill and builds? Because then a 2 to 1 ratio would be very difficult to pull off. Sure, raising things like the CC cap would help. AOE and passive abilities are already an issue now though. Basically all I can see that doing would be to give an even greater advantage to having more people.

That is really my main issue, the game is geared towards having more bodies on the field. You outnumber, you win. And I get that the OP is trying to fight against that tide. Without some form of new strategy I don’t see that happening.

In the early days of this game, I remember reading about a commander (you all might remember who this is better than I do) who had his group run like a triangle. The commander was the point, with all of the damage and healing dumped on top of him. Then he would drive that wedge into the enemy. Impossible to kill basically, which so many heals and damage on top. But type of idea doesn’t work now that other groups know what they are doing.

I used to see coordinated mesmer groups using portals creatively and tossing down reflects at certain times. A lot of strategies that were used in 2014 were awesome and simply too much has changed to make that viable.

I’m not saying give up on the idea. You’d have to make a convincing argument towards shifting code within the game though.

lil devils x.6071:

Dawdler.8521:

15 vs 40 was possible once because it was 15 people with secret raid builds and a hardcore commander vs 40 people on random PvE builds following a commander that had no idea what he was doing. The game has matured beyond that now. Today you might have the same 15 man setup, but those 40 people will probably consist of veteran GWEN raiders on a very experienced commander. 15 vs 40 all things equal should not be possible.

Funny thing though, it still sort of is. Just not open field with a wipe.

But you can never have the first thing back.

I DO think 15 vs 40 should definitely be possible with all things equal if the game put more emphasis on player skill than on luck. That is part of the problem. I know .. people complain about " twitch based" but it isn’t just that. It should be based more on class/ build/ party knowledge and ability to play those classes well, where you have numerous options, not just one or two OP builds. To be able to read the battlefield , what your squad and the enemy squad is doing and make the appropriate adjustments and perfect your timing to be able to break them. Where you have numerous methods , build options, and party comps to counter and be effective. We aren’t given that at all currently, and you do not even have to use strategy or control the battlefield really to win. It has been dumbed down to the point that if you put a 4 year old on the right class, build, and party they could fight without worrying about dying. They are trying to remove all the skill and thinking from the game mode and as long as you hit the magic numbers you win. That is just lame.

I’ve watched that happen more than once in a game when it has been out for awhile. Companies use that as a method to get more players involved once the hardcore folks start to trickle away.

Fatherbliss.4701:

lil devils x.6071:

Dawdler.8521:

15 vs 40 was possible once because it was 15 people with secret raid builds and a hardcore commander vs 40 people on random PvE builds following a commander that had no idea what he was doing. The game has matured beyond that now. Today you might have the same 15 man setup, but those 40 people will probably consist of veteran GWEN raiders on a very experienced commander. 15 vs 40 all things equal should not be possible.

Funny thing though, it still sort of is. Just not open field with a wipe.

But you can never have the first thing back.

I DO think 15 vs 40 should definitely be possible with all things equal if the game put more emphasis on player skill than on luck. That is part of the problem. I know .. people complain about " twitch based" but it isn’t just that. It should be based more on class/ build/ party knowledge and ability to play those classes well, where you have numerous options, not just one or two OP builds. To be able to read the battlefield , what your squad and the enemy squad is doing and make the appropriate adjustments and perfect your timing to be able to break them. Where you have numerous methods , build options, and party comps to counter and be effective. We aren’t given that at all currently, and you do not even have to use strategy or control the battlefield really to win. It has been dumbed down to the point that if you put a 4 year old on the right class, build, and party they could fight without worrying about dying. They are trying to remove all the skill and thinking from the game mode and as long as you hit the magic numbers you win. That is just lame.

I’ve watched that happen more than once in a game when it has been out for awhile. Companies use that as a method to get more players involved once the hardcore folks start to trickle away.

Instead of actually making the game mode better and more competitive… Yes, I too have seen this and been left wondering why they choose to break their games like this. Does it actually " attract" more players to dumb it down and run off all the dedicated players?
If what they are looking for is a high turnover rate, they might as well get out of MMORPGS and makes some phone aps.

I would think this would even make even the casual players bored as hell and leave. That can only be entertaining for so long after you close the bars down until you get too drunk to see the screen anymore and pass out. The more dumbed down it is, the faster players get bored with it and leave. Of course there is no need to over complicate things, just give players multiple options that are balanced, players need to have the tools in their toy box to be able to use them.

lil devils x.6071:

Fatherbliss.4701:

lil devils x.6071:

Dawdler.8521:

15 vs 40 was possible once because it was 15 people with secret raid builds and a hardcore commander vs 40 people on random PvE builds following a commander that had no idea what he was doing. The game has matured beyond that now. Today you might have the same 15 man setup, but those 40 people will probably consist of veteran GWEN raiders on a very experienced commander. 15 vs 40 all things equal should not be possible.

Funny thing though, it still sort of is. Just not open field with a wipe.

But you can never have the first thing back.

I DO think 15 vs 40 should definitely be possible with all things equal if the game put more emphasis on player skill than on luck. That is part of the problem. I know .. people complain about " twitch based" but it isn’t just that. It should be based more on class/ build/ party knowledge and ability to play those classes well, where you have numerous options, not just one or two OP builds. To be able to read the battlefield , what your squad and the enemy squad is doing and make the appropriate adjustments and perfect your timing to be able to break them. Where you have numerous methods , build options, and party comps to counter and be effective. We aren’t given that at all currently, and you do not even have to use strategy or control the battlefield really to win. It has been dumbed down to the point that if you put a 4 year old on the right class, build, and party they could fight without worrying about dying. They are trying to remove all the skill and thinking from the game mode and as long as you hit the magic numbers you win. That is just lame.

I’ve watched that happen more than once in a game when it has been out for awhile. Companies use that as a method to get more players involved once the hardcore folks start to trickle away.

Instead of actually making the game mode better and more competitive. Yes, I too have seen this and been left wondering why they choose to break their games like this. Does it actually " attract" more players to dumb it down and run off all the dedicated players?
If what they are looking for is a high turnover rate, they might as well get out of MMORPGS and makes some phone aps.

I would think this would even make even the casual players bored as hell and leave. That can only be entertaining for so long after you close the bars down until you get too drunk to see the screen anymore and pass out. The more dumbed down it is, the faster players get bored with it and leave. Of course there is no need to over complicate things, just give players multiple options that are balanced, players need to have the tools in their toy box to be able to use them.

I sat through this with WoW (more than once actually), Rift, probably some others I’m forgetting. It seems to be right around that three year slump. Obviously WoW lasted a bit longer before than happened. Your point is spot on. That is exactly what happens. Everyone winds up being bored and the only hope of the game mode continuing is through a continuous stream of new players. The thing is this game does pretty darn well in spite of itself.

I’ve said this before but it bears repeating: If a game company satisfies the competitive hardcore player base, you have people hooked for years. Give them the ability to have player created content, adapt over time to give incentives and you’ll have a die hard community that really perpetuates itself. Take an idea like Minecraft, make it simple, easy to use and let people go wild. We need that type of innovation.

Over the years I have read some awesome, amazing ideas on this forum and the reddit. There needs to be a way in which to use some of those concepts in the game. Otherwise what will happen is another company will pick those up and use them.

I think a well organized hammer train with a very strong backline could still do a 15v40 these days, but it is a long fight, it isn’t going to be a one push like it used to be lol. Sadly there are maybe 2 groups left in the game with this level of organization to pull it off. KeK is one, and I saw another recently but can’t remember their name.. I think just about any semi-organized 15 man group in tier 4 could take on a 40 person pug blob. The pugs in T4 are pretty awful.

CrimeMaker.8612:

1. Make stab the way it was 2 years ago. The latest stab change was good but it still favors 40 man blobs more than the 15 and especially with this cc limits now days.

I do miss the old stability, but I don’t miss the hammer train meta any more than I like the pirate ship meta lol. I think if they were to bring back the old stability, they would probably introduce more boon stripping in order to even it out a little bit. Before, you needed mesmers running null field and necros running well of corruption and making sure they drop them on the enemy push to strip the stability.

I think honestly the way they changed stability recently to make it to where only one stack can be stripped every 0.75sec is fair. I think its actually better than the old stability now because of that. Especially since they made it to where things like lines, statics, etc can only be in effect 10 times, so if it strips 10 stacks of stability from the group as a whole, its done. No more lines and statics that will stop a whole zerg in their tracks is painful in my opinion.

CrimeMaker.8612:

2. Raise the amount of people cc hits like from 10 to 15 or 20 at least.

I think 10 person cap is reasonable. Like I said above, the lines and statics all effect 10 times now, I think things like the warrior hammer stun should too. Something needs to bring warrior back in to viability. Anymore, only one warrior is run with groups these days.

CrimeMaker.8612:

3. Rework conditions for WvW.

I think now that a lot of people caught on to running durability runes, conditions are too terribly bad on the field anymore unless the resistance is stripped. When it comes to smaller group fights or duels, conditions are stupid strong. Few classes have enough condi clear or resistance to fight something like a condi mesmer that has any brain cells at all.

CrimeMaker.8612:

4. Rework certain classes like revs which is completely broken as kitten

omeone who has been maining rev for the past month and playing it heavily, I have to agree. That class is insanely broken. I have over 3k armor, over 3k power without bloodlust stacks just standing with facets on, 22k HP, 66% crit and 224% crit damage… Oh and 50% boon duration unless I want to throw on my facet of nature, then I have 100% boon duration which is fantastic when I want to use Mallyx Pain Absorption to give myself 30+ seconds of resistance when I get condi bombed lol…. Revenant is way too strong. Glint heal is also just way too much. I think glint heal should be changed to be like Shelter on Guardian.

CrimeMaker.8612:

5. Bring back hammer trains qq

Its still a thing, its just that not enough groups know how to play it well anymore. Everyone has become lazy playing 13 backline and 2 front line for 15 man groups since HoT released lol..

CrimeMaker.8612:

So I am making this post purely for you guys to cmoment things arena net can do to make that 15 vs 40 possible once again and make zerg busting an actual thing once again. So guys please feel free to post your ideas!
First few things that come in my mind are:

1. Make stab the way it was 2 years ago. The latest stab change was good but it still favors 40 man blobs more than the 15 and especially with this cc limits now days.
2. Raise the amount of people cc hits like from 10 to 15 or 20 at least.
3. Rework conditions for WvW.
4. Rework certain classes like revs which is completely broken as kitten
5. Bring back hammer trains qq

Guy’s leave your ideas in comment and pls keep the post clean and drama out.

These just help the larger blobs more though….

lil devils x.6071:

Dawdler.8521:

15 vs 40 was possible once because it was 15 people with secret raid builds and a hardcore commander vs 40 people on random PvE builds following a commander that had no idea what he was doing. The game has matured beyond that now. Today you might have the same 15 man setup, but those 40 people will probably consist of veteran GWEN raiders on a very experienced commander. 15 vs 40 all things equal should not be possible.

Funny thing though, it still sort of is. Just not open field with a wipe.

But you can never have the first thing back.

It should be based more on class/ build/ party knowledge and ability to play those classes well, where you have numerous options, not just one or two OP builds. To be able to read the battlefield , what your squad and the enemy squad is doing and make the appropriate adjustments and perfect your timing to be able to break them. Where you have numerous methods , build options, and party comps to counter and be effective.

You have numerous options. We have 5 or so OP builds and good commanders with very trained and experienced players that know how to move and break the opponent. That’s exactly why 40 vs 15 is roflstompage assuming equal skills. The ones with 40 will have more. You can complain about the zerg all you want but it doesnt necessarily make the zergers morons. No amount of skill will make up for being heavily outnumbered, no matter how much you believe zergers are dumb headless chickens that dont know where the pointy end of the sword goes.

If this was a 40 man hardcore top tier GvG guild vs a 15 man equally hardcore top tier GvG guild would we even be having a discussion on who should (and most likely will) win in a fight, lol?

If we talk about 3 vs 5, 15 vs 20, 25 vs 35, 40 vs 50 etc we get into a whole other argument. And incidently, I think we have the better underdog winning outnumbered fights every day, every hour. Not so often 15 vs 40. Because thats insane.

Remove the need to spike for the faction who has the out-numbered buff.

Dawdler.8521:

lil devils x.6071:

Dawdler.8521:

15 vs 40 was possible once because it was 15 people with secret raid builds and a hardcore commander vs 40 people on random PvE builds following a commander that had no idea what he was doing. The game has matured beyond that now. Today you might have the same 15 man setup, but those 40 people will probably consist of veteran GWEN raiders on a very experienced commander. 15 vs 40 all things equal should not be possible.

Funny thing though, it still sort of is. Just not open field with a wipe.

But you can never have the first thing back.

It should be based more on class/ build/ party knowledge and ability to play those classes well, where you have numerous options, not just one or two OP builds. To be able to read the battlefield , what your squad and the enemy squad is doing and make the appropriate adjustments and perfect your timing to be able to break them. Where you have numerous methods , build options, and party comps to counter and be effective.

You have numerous options. We have 5 or so OP builds and good commanders with very trained and experienced players that know how to move and break the opponent. That’s exactly why 40 vs 15 is roflstompage assuming equal skills. The ones with 40 will have more. You can complain about the zerg all you want but it doesnt necessarily make the zergers morons. No amount of skill will make up for being heavily outnumbered, no matter how much you believe zergers are dumb headless chickens that dont know where the pointy end of the sword goes.

If this was a 40 man hardcore top tier GvG guild vs a 15 man equally hardcore top tier GvG guild would we even be having a discussion on who should (and most likely will) win in a fight, lol?

If we talk about 3 vs 5, 15 vs 20, 25 vs 35, 40 vs 50 etc we get into a whole other argument. And incidently, I think we have the better underdog winning outnumbered fights every day, every hour. Not so often 15 vs 40. Because thats insane.

Have you missed the Blob Mesmer boon share going on right now? Everyone is Invincible Mario atm. You can play with your forehead and take no damage at superspeed that never runs out.. Choices do not amount to much atm. Infinite resistance, protection, and quickness > anything else..

Proper party / build comp and you don’t have to worry about actually thinking while you fight..

lil devils x.6071:

You can play with your forehead and take no damage at superspeed that never runs out

Superspeed is not a boon and it doesnt stack.

Either way if what you say is true then why do 15 people fail to kill 40?

Dawdler.8521:

lil devils x.6071:

You can play with your forehead and take no damage at superspeed that never runs out

Superspeed is not a boon and it doesnt stack.

Either way if what you say is true then why do 15 people fail to kill 40?

The 40+ people are running the mesmer boonshares..
Look at the screen shots on top post on the last page (3) of the Boonshares will break WvW thread…
( oh and as soon as it runs out you just share it again , as long as you have enough mesmers per the right amount of people, you can keep it stacked forever. You can run as many pins/ mesmers as you want to maximize it to ensure every member of a zerg gets shares…

After looking at that screen, what were you saying about quickness? That screen shot was from a boonshare ZERG ..

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Remove-Boonshare-It-s-gonna-break-WvW/page/3#post6234855

lil devils x.6071:

Dawdler.8521:

lil devils x.6071:

You can play with your forehead and take no damage at superspeed that never runs out

Superspeed is not a boon and it doesnt stack.

Either way if what you say is true then why do 15 people fail to kill 40?

The 40+ people are running the mesmer boonshares..
Look at the screen shots on top post on the last page (3) of the Boonshares will break WvW thread…
( oh and as soon as it runs out you just share it again , as long as you have enough mesmers per the right amount of people, you can keep it stacked forever. You can run as many pins/ mesmers as you want to maximize it to ensure every member of a zerg gets shares…

After looking at that screen, what were you saying about quickness? That screen shot was from a boonshare ZERG ..

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Remove-Boonshare-It-s-gonna-break-WvW/page/3#post6234855

You can stack boons but it takes time to stack boons and the counter to boon stacking is their which is corruption run corruption necro, sigil of nullification and other things

Lets see:

1. Overpower stability
2. Overpower CC (I guess because stab is now overpowered)
3. What does this even mean.
4. ZOMG revs so bad anet pls nerf
5. Hammer train meta so much better than pirate ship meta

Sounds good to me. /s

Dawdler.8521:

15 vs 40 was possible once because it was 15 people with secret raid builds and a hardcore commander vs 40 people on random PvE builds following a commander that had no idea what he was doing. The game has matured beyond that now.

No it hasn’t, this still happens, fairly regularly too.

CrimeMaker.8612:

lil devils x.6071:

Dawdler.8521:

lil devils x.6071:

You can play with your forehead and take no damage at superspeed that never runs out

Superspeed is not a boon and it doesnt stack.

Either way if what you say is true then why do 15 people fail to kill 40?

The 40+ people are running the mesmer boonshares..
Look at the screen shots on top post on the last page (3) of the Boonshares will break WvW thread…
( oh and as soon as it runs out you just share it again , as long as you have enough mesmers per the right amount of people, you can keep it stacked forever. You can run as many pins/ mesmers as you want to maximize it to ensure every member of a zerg gets shares…

After looking at that screen, what were you saying about quickness? That screen shot was from a boonshare ZERG ..

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Remove-Boonshare-It-s-gonna-break-WvW/page/3#post6234855

You can stack boons but it takes time to stack boons and the counter to boon stacking is their which is corruption run corruption necro, sigil of nullification and other things

It doesn’t take time at all .. boonstacking an entire zerg is easy as hell ( we are actually doing this atm), you are talking about 40 players powered up like super mario.. go ahead and try and 15 vs 40 that. Oh and keep in mind the zerg has necros too.. you are talking about a zerg not a skill team, and they are targeting your corrupters and boon strippers as well. More difficult to target the many than to target the few WITH the many. Like I said before Boon stripping, mercy runes and corruption isn’t going to do much good fighting a boonshare BLOB running around like invincible Marios. You may start to damage a few but then your dead before that matters. You’re just roadkill at that point.

the only thing needed to bring skill groups back on top is the removal of AOE cap. unfortunately servers cant handle it because they are busy calculating the damage of your flesh worms and kitten like that.

Nope, not gonna happen again, cos almost all HC players quit the game already. Even Chemso isn’t playing Gw2 anymore! RG disbanded, vE disbanded, Vendetta disbanded, TA disbanded, LaG disbanded, Re disbanded, dF disbanded, INC disbanded, thos are HC guilds from EU that were once top and now… They are all gone. There is such few HC players left to make anything and old guys won’t return( they went to play camelot:unchained, bd or are slacking in other games).
Now… even if they would return, Anet must make those things that you pointed and bring game’s balance from 2014, with all food, runes, classes etc. Also remove AoE restrictions and get rid of this condi kitten. Otherwise… It won’t work, cos they started to nerf guilds at the end of 2014 and nailed it with MT(stabil) nerf in march 2015. So… Unless anet make something, old good times won’t return and as i know Anet won’t do a thing as long as players buy gems and this joke – HoT

lil devils x.6071:

Dawdler.8521:

lil devils x.6071:

You can play with your forehead and take no damage at superspeed that never runs out

Superspeed is not a boon and it doesnt stack.

Either way if what you say is true then why do 15 people fail to kill 40?

The 40+ people are running the mesmer boonshares..
Look at the screen shots on top post on the last page (3) of the Boonshares will break WvW thread…
( oh and as soon as it runs out you just share it again , as long as you have enough mesmers per the right amount of people, you can keep it stacked forever. You can run as many pins/ mesmers as you want to maximize it to ensure every member of a zerg gets shares…

After looking at that screen, what were you saying about quickness? That screen shot was from a boonshare ZERG ..

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Remove-Boonshare-It-s-gonna-break-WvW/page/3#post6234855

Quickness is not superspeed. I said nothing about quickness. They are two entirely different things.

Dawdler.8521:

lil devils x.6071:

Dawdler.8521:

lil devils x.6071:

You can play with your forehead and take no damage at superspeed that never runs out

Superspeed is not a boon and it doesnt stack.

Either way if what you say is true then why do 15 people fail to kill 40?

The 40+ people are running the mesmer boonshares..
Look at the screen shots on top post on the last page (3) of the Boonshares will break WvW thread…
( oh and as soon as it runs out you just share it again , as long as you have enough mesmers per the right amount of people, you can keep it stacked forever. You can run as many pins/ mesmers as you want to maximize it to ensure every member of a zerg gets shares…

After looking at that screen, what were you saying about quickness? That screen shot was from a boonshare ZERG ..

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Remove-Boonshare-It-s-gonna-break-WvW/page/3#post6234855

Quickness is not superspeed. I said nothing about quickness. They are two entirely different things.

I do apologize, my mistake, I thought you were referencing my super mario comment, Superspeed is only faster movement vs quickness giving faster skills and actions are faster, which having skills and actions being faster is actually WORSE than just faster movement, although we have increased movement as well via swiftness. When we are running around with resistance negating all effects of conditions, Protection reducing direct damage ,stability, swiftness increasing movement speed,quickness increasing all skills and actions, all mighted and furied up and shared to the entire zerg it makes quite a mess of things. That is not something that can be reasonably countered by a smaller force at all even if they are doing the same thing..

lil devils x.6071:

I DO think 15 vs 40 should definitely be possible with all things equal if the game put more emphasis on player skill than on luck.

Let me fix that for you:

I DO think 15 vs 40 should definitely be possible with all things equal if the game put more emphasis on player skill than AoE spam.

Straegen.2938:

lil devils x.6071:

I DO think 15 vs 40 should definitely be possible with all things equal if the game put more emphasis on player skill than on luck.

Let me fix that for you:

I DO think 15 vs 40 should definitely be possible with all things equal if the game put more emphasis on player skill than AoE spam.

So basically, it won’t ever ever happen because Anet will scare away the casual crowd that they’ve been courting for 4 years.

This happens in many games. To start with, a few master the game mechanics faster than others (usually because they play more and theory craft group compositions, use ts, etc) and can use their superior ‘tactics’ to wipe much greater numbers of players.

As the game progresses that skill gap shrinks- there will still be some that stand out from the crowd, but more people will be used to ‘tactics’ (blasting fields isn’t rocket science, but if you’d asked the average player what it was 3 years ago, they probably didn’t know/understand how it works). It becomes harder to even a well trained well drilled perfectly geared 15 to defeat the average 40 ‘pug’ zerg.

Bear in mind depending on the time of day and what day it is has a huge effect on who is in that zerg – some days will be 40 veterans against which you have no chance, others will be 15-20 running decent builds and 20-25 pve equipped non-ts using loot bags.

I still see too many that turn and run away as soon as a fight starts because the numbers aren’t in their favour- guaranteeing the fight is lost. Never understood why people are scared of having their pixels hurt, but that is one of the main reasons smaller groups could zerg bust. Zerglings see a few downed and don’t want their pixels hurt, turn and start running, support to front line lost, front line downed, zerg broken, mop up.

CrimeMaker.8612:

So I am making this post purely for you guys to cmoment things arena net can do to make that 15 vs 40 possible once again and make zerg busting an actual thing once again. So guys please feel free to post your ideas!
First few things that come in my mind are:

1. Make stab the way it was 2 years ago. The latest stab change was good but it still favors 40 man blobs more than the 15 and especially with this cc limits now days.
2. Raise the amount of people cc hits like from 10 to 15 or 20 at least.
3. Rework conditions for WvW.
4. Rework certain classes like revs which is completely broken as kitten
5. Bring back hammer trains qq

Guy’s leave your ideas in comment and pls keep the post clean and drama out.

The only way to make this possible, is to drastically reduce all beneficial AOE effects and passives, and increase the number of active skills, stuff you have to actually activate to do anything or counter anything.

This way it would be up to individual players to provide their teams with appropriate things such as cleansing, stab, prot, etc., rather then just spam or rely on procs. Naturally, the smaller group with more and better control and coordination will win in these scenarios over the larger groups who will waste their abilities randomly.

As far as your individual points go, I disagree with them, a lot of what you ask for has been in the game before and has done far more overall harm then good.

1. Reverting stab changes will exclude too many players on too many classes, it will completely and utterly nullify a lot of builds, traits, everything. I do not wish to see half or most of the players excluded from being effective in WVW again. Too many people have left the game mode or the game entirely because of this.

2. Very bad, it will vastly favor the bigger blobs, as a blob of 40 (as in your example) would CC entirely a group of 15 many times over what the other way around would do.

I would like to see a slight Diminishing Returns after a 3rd CC, which would couple with outnumbered buff for example. That, would solve a lot of issues while at the same time eliminate the necessity for your point #1. But I do not think it is possible, servers would overload and slow down even more then currently if they had even more stacks of all kinds to track, not to mention the system woudl have to be worked on, developed and implimented.

3. Condis are a touchy subject. They are a bit OP in small scale and often almost useless in large scale fights pending on what type of group you are up against. They still do OK vs random pug blobs, but beyond that just forget it.

There are 2 things I would do in this area: Reduce condi spam from non condi builds to eliminate cover condis, and move condi cleansing from passive to active play. This would let small scale players execute more cleansing, while provide less “hiding in the zerg” scenarios for large groups.

4. I do not want any classes “defining” abilities to be made utterly useless. Since you brought up rev, try playing one, for example cantaur + shiro instead of herald + dwarf or herald +malix, see how it goes for you. They need some extreme buffs on the otehr sides before any nerfs, especially big ones.

5. No because they already are. Hammer scrappers and DHs have pretty much replaced hammer warriors, just that many people, including many commanders are just so closed minded and fail to explore what is available its not even funny. Once in a while you do run into guilds that utilize the new specs in this aspect But unfortunately for everyone that does, there are about 10 that fail at it.

I could post a list of guilds which is which, running both with and against them to straight out call them out on this, but it is unfortunately against the forum rules, thus I won’t.

My best in DAOC was win 8 vs 96…fun times

Baldrick.8967:

I still see too many that turn and run away as soon as a fight starts because the numbers aren’t in their favour- guaranteeing the fight is lost. Never understood why people are scared of having their pixels hurt, but that is one of the main reasons smaller groups could zerg bust. Zerglings see a few downed and don’t want their pixels hurt, turn and start running, support to front line lost, front line downed, zerg broken, mop up.

That in part comes down to confidence in a commander and the numbers they’re facing. If you’re following a known fight commander you’d probably stick around the entire fight, if they have their guildies around them even better, if you’re following one that’s known to ppt and get one pushed, you’re not going to stick around long are you?

It is possible just run the kittened boonshare sustain comp, doesnt take much skill. the problem is everyone else is running it. so good luck fighting the guild groups that run 30 running that. Good commander and good players help too.

Dawdler.8521:

15 vs 40 was possible once because it was 15 people with secret raid builds and a hardcore commander vs 40 people on random PvE builds following a commander that had no idea what he was doing. The game has matured beyond that now. Today you might have the same 15 man setup, but those 40 people will probably consist of veteran GWEN raiders on a very experienced commander. 15 vs 40 all things equal should not be possible.

Funny thing though, it still sort of is. Just not open field with a wipe.

But you can never have the first thing back.

This is the most accurate comment here. Although there are still new players joining the game or players coming from PvE to WvW, the game has been around long enough now that the majority of them are experienced players/commanders.

Although you can overcome far greater odds if your group is skilled/smart enough, it’s much less common now that most of the players are familiar with the flow of a fight.

The main thing I would suggest if anyone wants to win heavily outnumbered fights is to not brute force it. You’re not being impressive by YOLO pushing triple your numbers and surviving for 60seconds, you’re being reckless. Use the terrain to your advantage. Funnel people through chokes, deny backliners by keeping on high ground, build siege that will support your smaller numbers like Shield Generators or Catapults and stay as tightly packed as possible so as to prevent your party from being picked off.

EOTM might be a totally different playing field but I just want to say for the record, I have wiped multiple guilds/organized groups with intelligent positioning. I’ve witnessed the same things being done in real WvW as well but it’s far less common because people would rather try to be supermen than using their heads. It’s just like IRL, you don’t run at a raging mob with a few friends and some knives. You devise a plan to get them in a position of your favor so that you can eliminate as many as possible without putting yourselves in too much danger.

@ SpellOfIniquity

I believe the prevalence of vets in WvWvW these days is only one factor. A big reason why 15v40 is less possible these days is because the combat now requires significantly less effort in order to be effective, so numbers matter more. There are many people who’ve been playing for years and are still bad at fighting because being skilled in this aspect wasn’t/isn’t their aim. However, lots of passives, bundle skills (mitigate damage/deal damage/improve mobility all in one button), unblockables and an abundance of AoE skills and boons offset this lack of effort. Another blow to smaller groups was the change to a 10 target limit on wards, the skills that at least allowed groups to get around the AoE cap to strip stab and break up blobs/set up bombs.

Change the downed state and death system for wvsw….its not rocket science.

Dead people need to stay dead (there are waypoints everywhere already….)
Downed players that have an enemy instant flag plant should die so long as the flag planter finishes the animation. You shouldn’t be able to heal them faster than the flag plant takes, and if they do they should have to pay a cost for doing so.
Players downed and then up’d should have wayyyyyyyy more downed penalties. ANd if they are downed a third time in a row they should just instant die.
Downed state health should be lowered a percent across all classes.
All downed state abilities outside of the ‘1’ should have a cd like they used to have. And that cd should be AT LEAST as long as a flag plant takes (like it used to be).

The number of abilities to instant rez downed players should be changed/fixed dramatically.

You shouldn’t be able to heal a downed player (with F) faster than a glass cannon can do damage to them.

Why can’t those 15 lions do anything against the 30 sheep? CAuse the 30 sheep are immortal by design. They each have 2 lives (up and downed state), that can be infinitely refreshed after the first OR second life is taken after a 3-10 second pause (reviving the downed/dead). The lions have 2 lives that can not be infinitely refreshed after a 5-10 second pause. So hypothetically, or in layman’s terms, you got 30 vs 60 where the 60 have instant infinite respawn…..

NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.

Cerby.1069:

Why can’t those 15 lions do anything against the 30 sheep? CAuse the 30 sheep are immortal by design. They each have 2 lives (up and downed state), that can be infinitely refreshed after a 5-10 second pause (reviving the dead). The lions have 2 lives that can not be infinitely refreshed after a 5-10 second pause. So hypothetically, or in layman’s terms, you got 30 vs 60 where the 60 have instant infinite respawn…..

NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.

Your math is wrong.

Cats have 9 lives.

lol 15 lions vs 30 sheep. i dont think thats a very good example tbh

Fat Disgrace.4275:

lol 15 lions vs 30 sheep. i dont think thats a very good example tbh

Okay fine…..

15 cakes vs 30 glasses of milk.

Umm…15 v 40 is still possible. I see it constantly. Though I agree the CC is over the top nowadays, and I’m still wondering why Immobilize still isn’t considered a CC, you can’t move while it’s on. Diminishing Returns…we need it for CC.

It’s possible, part of the issue is so many people are slaves to the norm and metabattle. Just need to get a little creative, find the kitten in the armor and beat the crap out of it.

There have always been Meta’s that evolve, even if just slightly that give someone the edge. Stop drooling over metabattle (half of which is outdated) and boon sharing and find the counter. Eventually people will catch on and everyone will try and run that comp but then you just get creative again. This is exactly what those HC guilds did constantly and is part of the reason they remained on top aside from just being good at what they did.

Nuzt.7894:

It’s possible, part of the issue is so many people are slaves to the norm and metabattle. Just need to get a little creative, find the kitten in the armor and beat the crap out of it.

There have always been Meta’s that evolve, even if just slightly that give someone the edge. Stop drooling over metabattle (half of which is outdated) and boon sharing and find the counter. Eventually people will catch on and everyone will try and run that comp but then you just get creative again. This is exactly what those HC guilds did constantly and is part of the reason they remained on top aside from just being good at what they did.

u cant be that creative in this game, if u wan to win, metas in gw2 are far stronger that gw1 metas, cause require less team work and more spam, if u go for that creative build or weak weapon set, yuou will be a burden to your group, saddly that ius ahow it works.

Play gimmick, look good all is fine…