Guild Wars 2

Is it just me, or has this thread been shrinking? I could’ve sworn it used to be well into two pages…

Soon, very soon this thread will make it to page #2 and stay there. But I’m a dreamer, here’s to us making it to page #3. Cheers.

It will go back to 1 before it makes 3.

Post faster, I hear deletions…

Appears as though there is nothing left to say. With that in mind, some intense fighting this week – I really appreciate AR and eBay putting up one heck of a fight. Looking forward to another round of fun and Sekz.

That is something we can all count on: large amounts of hot steaming sekz …. Players…. In the borderlands

The sad irony in these last two posts….

;D

Thanks for making the week entertaining and coming out to fight.

tiramisu.8706:

;D

Thanks for making the week entertaining and coming out to fight.

Hi

int randInt return.7810:

Post faster, I hear deletions…

Cookies?

Sigh this match up is ridiculously boring. No one on AR or BP is a challenge.

Archer.1658:

Sigh this match up is ridiculously boring. No one on AR or BP is a challenge.

Run with fewer than 30 people when you are looking for that solo player.

Archer.1658:

Sigh this match up is ridiculously boring. No one on AR or BP is a challenge.

Can’t hang in T4 and too many numbers for T5. My guild moved to T6/BP from T4/CD for more skirmish fighting. While in T4, I remember you talking a lot smack about zergs and how other servers had crap skill players compared to EBay. Course now they are all still T4 or higher and Ebay is in T5… hmmm. Maybe you should have put more effort in to stay in T4 if you wanted a bigger challenge.

Straegen.2938:

Archer.1658:

Sigh this match up is ridiculously boring. No one on AR or BP is a challenge.

Can’t hang in T4 and too many numbers for T5. My guild moved to T6/BP from T4/CD for more skirmish fighting. While in T4, I remember you talking a lot smack about zergs and how other servers had crap skill players compared to EBay. Course now they are all still T4 or higher and Ebay is in T5… hmmm. Maybe you should have put more effort in to stay in T4 if you wanted a bigger challenge.

Population =/= skill. I wrecked CD/YB/MAG/BP/AR in the open field. Check again. Maybe you should put more effort into being good so I don’t get bored.

Straegen.2938:

Archer.1658:

Sigh this match up is ridiculously boring. No one on AR or BP is a challenge.

Can’t hang in T4 and too many numbers for T5. My guild moved to T6/BP from T4/CD for more skirmish fighting. While in T4, I remember you talking a lot smack about zergs and how other servers had crap skill players compared to EBay. Course now they are all still T4 or higher and Ebay is in T5… hmmm. Maybe you should have put more effort in to stay in T4 if you wanted a bigger challenge.

[GF] looks for fights in the open field
in T4 when it was mag/YB they would actually come out and play, yes they do zerg (all servers have some sort of zerg) while in this tier unless they have tons of seige or numbers no one will come out of their tower/keep to fight.

Brando.1374:

Straegen.2938:

Archer.1658:

Sigh this match up is ridiculously boring. No one on AR or BP is a challenge.

Can’t hang in T4 and too many numbers for T5. My guild moved to T6/BP from T4/CD for more skirmish fighting. While in T4, I remember you talking a lot smack about zergs and how other servers had crap skill players compared to EBay. Course now they are all still T4 or higher and Ebay is in T5… hmmm. Maybe you should have put more effort in to stay in T4 if you wanted a bigger challenge.

[GF] looks for fights in the open field
in T4 when it was mag/YB they would actually come out and play, yes they do zerg (all servers have some sort of zerg) while in this tier unless they have tons of seige or numbers no one will come out of their tower/keep to fight.

Same for EBay in Eternal, tired of chasing 3 guys all the way back to SM because they see one solo guy and they got hit(oh no!). My poor necro isn’t that fast, and its hard to catch you guys when you run for the nearest safe structure.

Dovgan.8605:

Brando.1374:

Straegen.2938:

Archer.1658:

Sigh this match up is ridiculously boring. No one on AR or BP is a challenge.

Can’t hang in T4 and too many numbers for T5. My guild moved to T6/BP from T4/CD for more skirmish fighting. While in T4, I remember you talking a lot smack about zergs and how other servers had crap skill players compared to EBay. Course now they are all still T4 or higher and Ebay is in T5… hmmm. Maybe you should have put more effort in to stay in T4 if you wanted a bigger challenge.

[GF] looks for fights in the open field
in T4 when it was mag/YB they would actually come out and play, yes they do zerg (all servers have some sort of zerg) while in this tier unless they have tons of seige or numbers no one will come out of their tower/keep to fight.

Same for EBay in Eternal, tired of chasing 3 guys all the way back to SM because they see one solo guy and they got hit(oh no!). My poor necro isn’t that fast, and its hard to catch you guys when you run for the nearest safe structure.

Come play in AR BL then. I promise not to run.

Archer.1658:

Sigh this match up is ridiculously boring. No one on AR or BP is a challenge.

Is that’s why you queue BP BL with 4 guilds every single day ?
I cant remember the last time me running in BP BL without watching 20+ PK

Kalkz.5297:

Archer.1658:

Sigh this match up is ridiculously boring. No one on AR or BP is a challenge.

Is that’s why you queue BP BL with 4 guilds every single day ?
I cant remember the last time me running in BP BL without watching 20+ PK

Don’t be upset because your server gets constantly demoralized, either that or your just weekend warriors who give up during the week.

Kalkz.5297:

Archer.1658:

Sigh this match up is ridiculously boring. No one on AR or BP is a challenge.

Is that’s why you queue BP BL with 4 guilds every single day ?
I cant remember the last time me running in BP BL without watching 20+ PK

The pk guild usually travel to other Borderlands to do a karma/exp train. We like to level our alts too.

That reminds me, we had an amazing battle earlier in BP borderlands. Started off with a few of our guys hitting Hills, then BP came up from behind. Surprisingly they wiped BP’s 12 guys with only 6, and I joined them thereafter (making our numbers with a few others 10). We broke into the Hills and were hitting the north inner gate when we finally got wiped by a group of more than 20 people. Then we ran at Hills again and terrifyingly enough we battled on the bridge for quite a while before getting the upper hand on BP (our numbers slowly gained until it was about 25), and then we got into Hills again. However during the same time AR was hitting Bay, and the second Bay fell we get hit by the full force of BP. I have to say we had some fun there.

Dovgan.8605:

Same for EBay in Eternal, tired of chasing 3 guys all the way back to SM because they see one solo guy and they got hit(oh no!). My poor necro isn’t that fast, and its hard to catch you guys when you run for the nearest safe structure.

Maybe some people still think culling is in effect and think you’ll have 15 more behind you O_O

Just kidding; I woulda fought you.

I honestly think it’s more of an Eternal thing. I see it on all 3 sides.

The fact is I need the practice on my necro. Getting used to GTing is a pain when I ditched the trap build forever ago on my ranger. So the more fights I get, the better I can get on a new character, and tweak the build.

Dovgan.8605:

I honestly think it’s more of an Eternal thing. I see it on all 3 sides.

The fact is I need the practice on my necro. Getting used to GTing is a pain when I ditched the trap build forever ago on my ranger. So the more fights I get, the better I can get on a new character, and tweak the build.

Props to you for rolling a Necro , actually double props for going from ranger to Necro.

Fraeg.9837:

Dovgan.8605:

I honestly think it’s more of an Eternal thing. I see it on all 3 sides.

The fact is I need the practice on my necro. Getting used to GTing is a pain when I ditched the trap build forever ago on my ranger. So the more fights I get, the better I can get on a new character, and tweak the build.

Props to you for rolling a Necro , actually double props for going from ranger to Necro.

Exact opposite of what you just said.

As a “pug” commander…I am having fun in Eternal BG! I don’t get zerg crazy but if you step into the AR sector while on my watch…look out. I am the Char necro that over extends too much when there is a big zerg in our sector or anywhere else really. I think AR pug groups are scary business and if a commander understands the manpower/map coverage ratio then things get really interesting…

WAR (War Lords) would like to thank all guilds! We learn with each win and wipe. If you are in WvW…we like you. Even though Ebay brings that lag debuff and BP are backdoor beauties, I am glad to have made it this far with people I have been playing with for months. Both guildies and non-guild members alike. It has been fun to make this long and painful climb.

AR has fought against odds for months. This is nothing new to what we have already been doing. Usually an underdog at first, our resolve keeps things interesting. I know we don’t have the numbers to “challenge” Ebay. But like I said before…AR is a pve/tpvp server and now we have the numbers to prove it. The top player in pve is from AR and about 70% of the top 100 spvpers are from AR. According to Anet…and we keep climbing as a wvw server.

Sekz is Ebays best wvw guild and WAR had fun ruffling Kalkz feathers today…

Redgrass.3067:

Sekz is Ebays best wvw guild.

Best is subjective. But yes, they are really really good at what they do.

Kalkz.5297:

Archer.1658:

Sigh this match up is ridiculously boring. No one on AR or BP is a challenge.

Is that’s why you queue BP BL with 4 guilds every single day ?
I cant remember the last time me running in BP BL without watching 20+ PK

remind you of anyone guys?

Archer.1658:

Population =/= skill. I wrecked CD/YB/MAG/BP/AR in the open field. Check again. Maybe you should put more effort into being good so I don’t get bored.

You wreck a lot apparently. Rumor has it you were helpful in expediting some guilds leaving your server while in T4.

Pic from last night when I caught a ranger GH solo

Course I did run into your guilds ranger, mesmer, thief camping our EB spawn a few minutes ago. The ranger was cake. The thief and mesmer… major skills and I mean major. I would have a screenshot of another dead GH ranger tonight but those other two kept me moving till we finally out numbered them. By the time I got back to the dead GH ranger, he released. /salute to those two because even numbers they would have won.

We’ve made Kalkz kitten, haven’t we. Hughie?

And OH, Kalkz, you’re one to talk.

I’ll clarify so I can cure your brain a bit. Each day of the week, our guild has a leveling event where we kindly and generously level our player’s alts and all the other pugs who decide to tag along. If you’ve ran away from us during this time of the day, I’m truly sorry.

But quite honestly, that’s a really bad example coming from you, since you run with, what? 60+ people. Good comfort zone. Or should I say zerg. <3

Brando.1374:

[GF] looks for fights in the open field
in T4 when it was mag/YB they would actually come out and play, yes they do zerg (all servers have some sort of zerg) while in this tier unless they have tons of seige or numbers no one will come out of their tower/keep to fight.

I have respect for several guilds and players on EBay including GF. There are some really good players over there and I frequently get salutes when you guys bring me down. However, Archer just gives you guys a bad name at least on the forums. I know he is trolling but in a way he has become the forum face of Ebay. He complains about loosing in T4 and apparently doesn’t like winning in T5.

Straegen.2938:

Brando.1374:

[GF] looks for fights in the open field
in T4 when it was mag/YB they would actually come out and play, yes they do zerg (all servers have some sort of zerg) while in this tier unless they have tons of seige or numbers no one will come out of their tower/keep to fight.

I have respect for several guilds and players on EBay including GF. There are some really good players over there and I frequently get salutes when you guys bring me down. However, Archer just gives you guys a bad name at least on the forums. I know he is trolling but in a way he has become the forum face of Ebay. He complains about loosing in T4 and apparently doesn’t like winning in T5.

Though me and Archer have had differences, I can sorta see where he’s coming from.

No offence to you T5 guys cause you all put up a helluva fight, but EBay will win every time. So it’s not that much of a challenge for our bigger guilds. But when we elevate to T4, our numbers come short and even though we have skilled players it’s not enough, so I can see where his rant comes from. And people just buy into his trolling, their fault he’s successful. :P

Canar.2064:

We’ve made Kalkz kitten, haven’t we. Hughie?

Not at all, since it takes guilds to queue a map to damage me and my army of pugs i will be always happy

also may ask errbay for a favor ? i want all of eternal errbay cool fighters to be repping the [BP] Guild. its gonna be hilarious how they will all end up repairing 20+ times

Redgrass.3067:

As a “pug” commander…I am having fun in Eternal BG! I don’t get zerg crazy but if you step into the AR sector while on my watch…look out. I am the Char necro that over extends too much when there is a big zerg in our sector or anywhere else really. I think AR pug groups are scary business and if a commander understands the manpower/map coverage ratio then things get really interesting…

WAR (War Lords) would like to thank all guilds! We learn with each win and wipe. If you are in WvW…we like you. Even though Ebay brings that lag debuff and BP are backdoor beauties, I am glad to have made it this far with people I have been playing with for months. Both guildies and non-guild members alike. It has been fun to make this long and painful climb.

AR has fought against odds for months. This is nothing new to what we have already been doing. Usually an underdog at first, our resolve keeps things interesting. I know we don’t have the numbers to “challenge” Ebay. But like I said before…AR is a pve/tpvp server and now we have the numbers to prove it. The top player in pve is from AR and about 70% of the top 100 spvpers are from AR. According to Anet…and we keep climbing as a wvw server.

Sekz is Ebays best wvw guild and WAR had fun ruffling Kalkz feathers today…

KALKZ FEATHERS, but we wiped your 30 zerg while having the outmanned buff …. three times 2 inside valley and 1 inside DG

Why is it AR and BP refuse to leave towers until they outnumber at a minimum 5-1?

Are GF and Sekz really that intimidating?

Canar.2064:

Though me and Archer have had differences, I can sorta see where he’s coming from.

No offence to you T5 guys cause you all put up a helluva fight, but EBay will win every time. So it’s not that much of a challenge for our bigger guilds. But when we elevate to T4, our numbers come short and even though we have skilled players it’s not enough, so I can see where his rant comes from. And people just buy into his trolling, their fault he’s successful. :P

Oddly the first week Ebay landed in T5, they lost. Still not sure what happened there. There was also a close week in addition to Ebays first T5 loss. EBay is also not blowing out T5 or they would move up. Ebay clearly has superior numbers but have been unable to close the deal. IMO if it weren’t for Sekz, the matches would be REALLY close. That guild frequently takes high value targets and backs up pk when a fight starts going south.

Jinks.2057:

Why is it  AR and BP refuse to leave towers until they outnumber at a minimum 5-1? Are GF and Sekz really that intimidating?

Both AR and BP frequently fight with the out manned buff on and consistently fight much larger forces. BP also rarely has commanders on every map so organized fighting is difficult. Ebay (mostly Sekz) has a habit of baiting forces out of a secured position then ambushing which has led to some turtling at least on BPs side.

[GF] is hands down the best guild for their size I’ve seen in any of the tiers I’ve been in. There are many skilled guilds, small and large, but [GF] has the most talent on an individual level as well as team co-ordination. When people would call out in map chat “a group of 7-10 Ebay taking SW camp” I would immediately ask which guild it was, if the reply was “[GF]” I would make sure that I had a sufficiently large enough force to wipe them. I know if it was even numbers they would wipe us. I’m a commander in YB and I respect their talent.

Like I said… there are many great guilds of all sizes, but for me [GF] is the best smaller guild I’ve played against. I think BP and AR should learn to counter them rather than complain about them. YB learnt how to deal with them… bring twice their numbers lol.

Strippling.3524:

[GF] is hands down the best guild for their size I’ve seen in any of the tiers I’ve been in. There are many skilled guilds, small and large, but [GF] has the most talent on an individual level as well as team co-ordination. When people would call out in map chat “a group of 7-10 Ebay taking SW camp” I would immediately ask which guild it was, if the reply was “[GF]” I would make sure that I had a sufficiently large enough force to wipe them. I know if it was even numbers they would wipe us. I’m a commander in YB and I respect their talent.

Like I said… there are many great guilds of all sizes, but for me [GF] is the best smaller guild I’ve played against. I think BP and AR should learn to counter them rather than complain about them. YB learnt how to deal with them… bring twice their numbers lol.

People need to realize that “Best” in WvW can mean multiple things. Does it mean best at killing people or best at sieging/capturing nodes? Or maybe even best overall.

Strippling.3524:

[GF] is hands down the best guild for their size I’ve seen in any of the tiers I’ve been in. There are many skilled guilds, small and large, but [GF] has the most talent on an individual level as well as team co-ordination. When people would call out in map chat “a group of 7-10 Ebay taking SW camp” I would immediately ask which guild it was, if the reply was “[GF]” I would make sure that I had a sufficiently large enough force to wipe them. I know if it was even numbers they would wipe us. I’m a commander in YB and I respect their talent.

Like I said… there are many great guilds of all sizes, but for me [GF] is the best smaller guild I’ve played against. I think BP and AR should learn to counter them rather than complain about them. YB learnt how to deal with them… bring twice their numbers lol.

What ever will they do, when they remove the Pry Bar from WvW?

I like fighting them, and have a good win rate against them on even footing, and have never complained about them. Saying everyone complains is utter BS, and shouldn’t even be said.

Starting on Henge of Denravi T1, prerelease when we got to stomp every server, and finally transferring due to fair weather fans causing six hour queue times, I have to say the best guild I’ve faced has been Newt or something like that. For its size, GF is second, but they appear to have more players than they let on at times.

Straegen.2938:

Canar.2064:

Though me and Archer have had differences, I can sorta see where he’s coming from.

No offence to you T5 guys cause you all put up a helluva fight, but EBay will win every time. So it’s not that much of a challenge for our bigger guilds. But when we elevate to T4, our numbers come short and even though we have skilled players it’s not enough, so I can see where his rant comes from. And people just buy into his trolling, their fault he’s successful. :P

Oddly the first week Ebay landed in T5, they lost. Still not sure what happened there. There was also a close week in addition to Ebays first T5 loss. EBay is also not blowing out T5 or they would move up. Ebay clearly has superior numbers but have been unable to close the deal. IMO if it weren’t for Sekz, the matches would be REALLY close. That guild frequently takes high value targets and backs up pk when a fight starts going south.

Jinks.2057:

Why is it  AR and BP refuse to leave towers until they outnumber at a minimum 5-1? Are GF and Sekz really that intimidating?

Both AR and BP frequently fight with the out manned buff on and consistently fight much larger forces. BP also rarely has commanders on every map so organized fighting is difficult. Ebay (mostly Sekz) has a habit of baiting forces out of a secured position then ambushing which has led to some turtling at least on BPs side.

I somehow knew that that first week incident would come up. I call it an incident because it was a slip up on our part, thinking that you two servers wouldn’t pack a punch and make us worry. This is not to say that we’re worried, because quite honestly? A lot of people have gotten bored of the same server fight. But by that same logic, a lot of people like that there is stability in the backfight. Trust me, it’s not that we -can’t- seal the deal, it’s just that a lot of us don’t care to. I personally haven’t even tried to WvW as much as I used to in T4, since I know we’re gonna win every time.

And yes, Sekz has been a very helpful factor into our WvW, but I would still beg to differ with your assumption, you would be far off from catching up on us on score. It’s safe to say that Ehmry’s big three, (pk, FTF, GH) have taken it slightly easier with the arrival of Sekz into the equation. As for them backing us up in fights, this might probably be true, but I couldn’t agree or disagree because I haven’t been personally WvW’ing as much. In a nutshell, the situation in Ehmry is slightly complicated and it would be hard to understand looking from the outside in.

Also, Kalkz, you seem to be really bad at counting. I’m sure one of my Squads would easily crush you and your pugscrubs. As I said above, I don’t wvw as much (In the epic hunt for my Legendary), but the times we’ve fought your zergs we’ve wiped them hard. And that was just us pk’ers. When Sekz comes in the picture I’ve seen a few of you run. Don’t aggrandize your deeds, cause we laugh at how we wipe you in the Ehmry forums.

Also, Shouts out to that [WAR] guild, you guys are truly the superman of your server. By far the only guild that I’ve thought twice about before jumping to kill.

[GF] is also the best guild I have faced as well.

Gorefiend.9675:

Strippling.3524:

[GF] is hands down the best guild for their size I’ve seen in any of the tiers I’ve been in. There are many skilled guilds, small and large, but [GF] has the most talent on an individual level as well as team co-ordination. When people would call out in map chat “a group of 7-10 Ebay taking SW camp” I would immediately ask which guild it was, if the reply was “[GF]” I would make sure that I had a sufficiently large enough force to wipe them. I know if it was even numbers they would wipe us. I’m a commander in YB and I respect their talent.

Like I said… there are many great guilds of all sizes, but for me [GF] is the best smaller guild I’ve played against. I think BP and AR should learn to counter them rather than complain about them. YB learnt how to deal with them… bring twice their numbers lol.

People need to realize that “Best” in WvW can mean multiple things. Does it mean best at killing people or best at sieging/capturing nodes? Or maybe even best overall.

Best as in killing people. They have good sieging tactics for defending the north supply camp lol… but yea never seen them siege a keep or tower without [GH] or [FTF] there. But definitely in open field combat they are the best.

@bunzy … you still on Maguuma? I heard [OG] disbanded, what guild are you running with now?

Jinks.2057:

Why is it AR and BP refuse to leave towers until they outnumber at a minimum 5-1?

Are GF and Sekz really that intimidating?

You cray.

Agriope.4523:

Jinks.2057:

Why is it AR and BP refuse to leave towers until they outnumber at a minimum 5-1?

Are GF and Sekz really that intimidating?

You cray.

You have to forgive him all the mindless zerging must have rotted his brain.

Redgrass.3067:

As a “pug” commander…I am having fun in Eternal BG! I don’t get zerg crazy but if you step into the AR sector while on my watch…look out. I am the Char necro that over extends too much when there is a big zerg in our sector or anywhere else really. I think AR pug groups are scary business and if a commander understands the manpower/map coverage ratio then things get really interesting…

WAR (War Lords) would like to thank all guilds! We learn with each win and wipe. If you are in WvW…we like you. Even though Ebay brings that lag debuff and BP are backdoor beauties, I am glad to have made it this far with people I have been playing with for months. Both guildies and non-guild members alike. It has been fun to make this long and painful climb.

AR has fought against odds for months. This is nothing new to what we have already been doing. Usually an underdog at first, our resolve keeps things interesting. I know we don’t have the numbers to “challenge” Ebay. But like I said before…AR is a pve/tpvp server and now we have the numbers to prove it. The top player in pve is from AR and about 70% of the top 100 spvpers are from AR. According to Anet…and we keep climbing as a wvw server.

So your that char necro! Between you and Forty Oz you guys keep it entertaining. Any time I’m on I look for you guys and just dive into the fray.

You know, if we could organize those spvpers into 5 player teams and send them out to control choke points, harass, etc. they would be a force to be reckoned with and it would boost AR.

Anvil Rock since beta.

Strippling.3524:

[GF] is hands down the best guild for their size I’ve seen in any of the tiers I’ve been in. There are many skilled guilds, small and large, but [GF] has the most talent on an individual level as well as team co-ordination. When people would call out in map chat “a group of 7-10 Ebay taking SW camp” I would immediately ask which guild it was, if the reply was “[GF]” I would make sure that I had a sufficiently large enough force to wipe them. I know if it was even numbers they would wipe us. I’m a commander in YB and I respect their talent.

Like I said… there are many great guilds of all sizes, but for me [GF] is the best smaller guild I’ve played against. I think BP and AR should learn to counter them rather than complain about them. YB learnt how to deal with them… bring twice their numbers lol.

In my opinion, I had a lot more trouble with PAXA then GF.

Make no mistake, GF is the best “small”(small is relative, they have fairly good number) roaming group in Ebay.

But they have a lot more number then PAXA had, making it appear as if they are better.

But PAXA was running 5 man group, and was really efficient in doing so.

People didn’t give them credit because one of there member was constant trolling on the forum.

And people, stop answering to Archer, you are only giving him attention. That guy obviously has no idea what he is doing.

I didn’t mean anything against the likes of: FTF, GH, GF, and pk. What I like (loathe) about Ebay is how your guilds have chemistry together. You guys all hit a map together and flank off one another. Not at the same time of course, but you if you see one of the “fab five” (FTF, GH, GF, pk and Sekz) in your borderlands, you can expect another. FTF has the zombie horde buff. The other 4 are really good in open field and can fight difficult odds

Kalkz…Valley keep was just a detour on keeping your towers wooden. We got scurvy as some drunken qauggins and just wanted to say high while you had the outmanned buff. I wish you could /wave in a golem haha! There were 5 AC’s behind the gate and when we broke in there was even more up stairs blotting out the sun before we could reach the top….so yea gg. See ya around in EB.

I can agree with the love of [GF]. I’ve ran with them multiple times in the EB borderlands and in the EBG and they really know their stuff. I feel myself getting better whenever I run with them, and I don’t know if it’s the confidence boost they bring or their tactical know-how.

I can find out today in WvW over the TS chat. Odds are one of the commanders know.

RyuDragnier.9476:

I can agree with the love of [GF]. I’ve ran with them multiple times in the EB borderlands and in the EBG and they really know their stuff. I feel myself getting better whenever I run with them, and I don’t know if it’s the confidence boost they bring or their tactical know-how.

GF also just has a lot of individually skilled players that know how to play every situation without someone telling them exactly what to do! That really gives them a leg up against 90% of groups out there.