Guild Wars 2

The new maps are not wanted as they are not what we asked for!

Just bring back the old maps!

Yeah it speaks volumes about people just wanting a simple map, with simple mechanics, that they can simply go around in a loop, flipping sentries/camps/towers/keeps for money/exp and karma.

No queues on Deso, lel.

Odokuro.5049:

Yeah it speaks volumes about people just wanting a simple map, with simple mechanics, that they can simply go around in a loop, flipping sentries/camps/towers/keeps for money/exp and karma.

maybe if it was better to kill people than take objectives… maybe if it was better to defend objectives than kill people…

insanemaniac.2456:

Odokuro.5049:

Yeah it speaks volumes about people just wanting a simple map, with simple mechanics, that they can simply go around in a loop, flipping sentries/camps/towers/keeps for money/exp and karma.

maybe if it was better to kill people than take objectives… maybe if it was better to defend objectives than kill people…

It’s always better to defend objectives AND kill people, darling

Odokuro.5049:

Yeah it speaks volumes about people just wanting a simple map, with simple mechanics, that they can simply go around in a loop, flipping sentries/camps/towers/keeps for money/exp and karma.

You forgot the most important, simple to find people and fight them.

EB is like EotM for bad players.

Junkpile.7439:

EB is like EotM for bad players.

Sad thing is no matter how you cut it, they are both still better then the new BLs.

Wryscher.1432:

Odokuro.5049:

Yeah it speaks volumes about people just wanting a simple map, with simple mechanics, that they can simply go around in a loop, flipping sentries/camps/towers/keeps for money/exp and karma.

You forgot the most important, simple to find people and fight them.

YB are more interested in siege camping than fighting

Odokuro.5049:

Yeah it speaks volumes about people just wanting a simple map, with simple mechanics, that they can simply go around in a loop, flipping sentries/camps/towers/keeps for money/exp and karma.

Yeah it speaks volumes about roaming people just wanting a simple map, with simple mechanics, that they can simply go around in a loop, fighting other players for fun.

All we really wanted changed had they listened was the Alpine Borderland, slightly stretched, so that towers and keeps cannot be trebbed from each other. “LESS PvE” and 2 more towers in the top left and right corners in the unused Centaur and Skritt camps.

New texture and a bit of finetuning here and there, even going so far as redesigning towers and keeps to justify the expansion. But not the current maze like monstrosities we currently have to navigate.

Dal.5872:

All we really wanted changed had they listened was the Alpine Borderland, slightly stretched, so that towers and keeps cannot be trebbed from each other. “LESS PvE” and 2 more towers in the top left and right corners in the unused Centaur and Skritt camps.

New texture and a bit of finetuning here and there, even going so far as redesigning towers and keeps to justify the expansion. But not the current maze like monstrosities we currently have to navigate.

Personally, I’m hoping Alpine comes out with home spawn moved to the orb area so we can fight in the city. That’s all that map needed imo.

LetoII.3782:

Personally, I’m hoping Alpine comes out with home spawn moved to the orb area so we can fight in the city. That’s all that map needed imo.

Would you keep the crafting stations in the city though?

Sounds like some of you would be completely happy if they gave you fake players to fight along with those messed up borderlands. Like I said we want pvp not pve.

^ there is pvp game mode, if you missed that
its the cross swords icon on the top left of your screen

While I wont say its name, my server name rhymes with jacks lend, have gotten HORRIBLE about hiding behind siege. They stopped do that for awhile, and now back to it. I have tried to explain, we are just cartoons, its ok if we fall down and can’t get up, we can try again. Won’t cost any money. Then again, and I have seen it some, the other two servers we do fight, HAVE gone after us two on one. Then again, we are guilty of it to. I am thinking its time for a transfer myself. Its just no fun…..and trying to go by your self, the other side is so desperate for any fun, entire zergs will chase down the lone toon……..Thats just sad, but I understand, what else is there to do but zerg gank the roaming toon……..

tym.3791:

While I wont say its name, my server name rhymes with jacks lend, have gotten HORRIBLE about hiding behind siege. They stopped do that for awhile, and now back to it. I have tried to explain, we are just cartoons, its ok if we fall down and can’t get up, we can try again. Won’t cost any money. Then again, and I have seen it some, the other two servers we do fight, HAVE gone after us two on one. Then again, we are guilty of it to. I am thinking its time for a transfer myself. Its just no fun…..and trying to go by your self, the other side is so desperate for any fun, entire zergs will chase down the lone toon……..Thats just sad, but I understand, what else is there to do but zerg gank the roaming toon……..

I wonder why don’t you transfer back to your home FA or any other server instead of constant whining in map chat for 2+ months now lol. You have bandwagoned to us when your own server needed unity among its people.

Let’s not get ahead of ourselves here. If whatever guild/commander was leading on EB had instead tagged up on one of the bl’s, the queue would be for that map instead.

To transfer at this point would be pointless. Everyone knows some big changes will be coming to WvW sooner or later, and who knows what that is gonna be. So I simply don’t play wvw anymore. Tried a time or two, got tired of watching the commander build TONS of siege, and hide behind it. There were 9 or 10 of us trying to fight the blob, I ALMOST broke rule number one, you don’t over tag another player. Looking back, I wish I would of.

Deli.1302:

Let’s not get ahead of ourselves here. If whatever guild/commander was leading on EB had instead tagged up on one of the bl’s, the queue would be for that map instead.

The guild/commanders leading EB don’t like the BLs either. So I’m not sure what your point is.

Odokuro.5049:

Yeah it speaks volumes about people just wanting a simple map, with simple mechanics, that they can simply go around in a loop, flipping sentries/camps/towers/keeps for money/exp and karma.

Simple map where everything is closer together and flat areas close to spawns so that you spend more time in the action than looking for it. Larger gimmicky maps just mean easier to avoid fights and never finding anyone to fight. People do not go to EB to K train, ( you can do that without opposition on the DBL) They go to EB because that is where the fights are. Smaller maps where you spend more time in fights than getting to them is what people play pvp game modes for. Not for running around trying to find a fight. running around trying to find a fight = waste of time.

Jayne.9251:

insanemaniac.2456:

Odokuro.5049:

Yeah it speaks volumes about people just wanting a simple map, with simple mechanics, that they can simply go around in a loop, flipping sentries/camps/towers/keeps for money/exp and karma.

maybe if it was better to kill people than take objectives… maybe if it was better to defend objectives than kill people…

It’s always better to defend objectives AND kill people, darling

There used to be a reason to defend due to losing WP, not anymore though you can still win even if you lose keeps. Now scouts don’t even bother playing wvw anymore since they replaced them with self checkouts.. I mean automated upgrades.

Chiccotot.7296:

^ there is pvp game mode, if you missed that
its the cross swords icon on the top left of your screen

Large scale pvp.. what wvw was supposed to be in the first place. The rest of the game is PVE.. they can let the PVPers both small and large scale have their PVP spaces without adding the PVE junk in there too.

Dal.5872:

All we really wanted changed had they listened was the Alpine Borderland, slightly stretched, so that towers and keeps cannot be trebbed from each other. “LESS PvE” and 2 more towers in the top left and right corners in the unused Centaur and Skritt camps.

New texture and a bit of finetuning here and there, even going so far as redesigning towers and keeps to justify the expansion. But not the current maze like monstrosities we currently have to navigate.

Who wanted that? Being able to treb from towers/ keeps is what makes them strategic objectives giving you an actual reason to defend them. Now there is no reason to defend the towers… or with the auto WP the keeps as well. You should be able to hit targets from other objectives, it makes them more valuable.

Wryscher.1432:

Deli.1302:

Let’s not get ahead of ourselves here. If whatever guild/commander was leading on EB had instead tagged up on one of the bl’s, the queue would be for that map instead.

The guild/commanders leading EB don’t like the BLs either. So I’m not sure what your point is.

And even if they do, the players on his server must be amazingly in love with the new border.

In my experience, even if the most well known commanders on the server lead a 70 man EB blob, as soon as he post a border link and jump… He will lead 15 people. Maybe 20 if lucky. The queue will still be on EB and the border wont queue unless there are at least 3 20 man guilds in there.

Commanders may not like the new border, but neither does the players so the basis to command there barely exist in the first place.

lil devils x.6071:

Dal.5872:

All we really wanted changed had they listened was the Alpine Borderland, slightly stretched, so that towers and keeps cannot be trebbed from each other. “LESS PvE” and 2 more towers in the top left and right corners in the unused Centaur and Skritt camps.

New texture and a bit of finetuning here and there, even going so far as redesigning towers and keeps to justify the expansion. But not the current maze like monstrosities we currently have to navigate.

Who wanted that? Being able to treb from towers/ keeps is what makes them strategic objectives giving you an actual reason to defend them. Now there is no reason to defend the towers… or with the auto WP the keeps as well. You should be able to hit targets from other objectives, it makes them more valuable.

Actually, if the towers were in front of the keeps, so that you’d actually have to deal with the towers before being able to advance to the keep, THAT would give them actual strategic relevance. The towers on the old borderlands had minor relevance, because they could treb the keeps. But for actual relevance, they’d need to block the paths to the keeps, and also be able to treb them. But right now, they don’t do either. They’re isolated areas in the corners of the maps that can be completely ignored and bypassed. There’s no territorial synergy, which results in the maps being much much easier to ktrain. The autoupgrades steer into that skid, removing any sense of investment into the areas that defenders had, resulting in far fewer defenders. No defenders means an easier ktrain.

And to the guy who was saying that people are in EB because they want to ktrain easier, you couldn’t possibly be more wrong. The new borderlands are set up as an easy ktrain from top to bottom, every single aspect of them. If people actually wanted an easier ktrain, the new maps would be flooded. However, people want actual WvW, where they can hold territory, capture other servers’ territory, and fight other players. So they flock to EB, since that’s the last bastion of hope left. At least before Anet decides to “fix” things, and smothers it with a pillow.

Phantom.8130:

lil devils x.6071:

Dal.5872:

All we really wanted changed had they listened was the Alpine Borderland, slightly stretched, so that towers and keeps cannot be trebbed from each other. “LESS PvE” and 2 more towers in the top left and right corners in the unused Centaur and Skritt camps.

New texture and a bit of finetuning here and there, even going so far as redesigning towers and keeps to justify the expansion. But not the current maze like monstrosities we currently have to navigate.

Who wanted that? Being able to treb from towers/ keeps is what makes them strategic objectives giving you an actual reason to defend them. Now there is no reason to defend the towers… or with the auto WP the keeps as well. You should be able to hit targets from other objectives, it makes them more valuable.

Actually, if the towers were in front of the keeps, so that you’d actually have to deal with the towers before being able to advance to the keep, THAT would give them actual strategic relevance. The towers on the old borderlands had minor relevance, because they could treb the keeps. But for actual relevance, they’d need to block the paths to the keeps, and also be able to treb them. But right now, they don’t do either. ~
snip.

No, forcing you to take the towers before the keep would make it too easy. The fact that you can attack anything from any direction and in any order makes it more strategic and challenging. Forcing your opponent to make choices and distracting them with other targets and multiple targets at once is what makes it not as boring. Linear chokepoints or specified order of attack = Predictable boring same ol’ same ol’ monotonous game play. You want to be able to attack all objectives in any way possible, in any order possible, from multiple directions at once forcing people to make choices so that you do not have stale game play. The more you limit which targets can be attacked, by what methods from where the more predictable the gameplay becomes. Instead you need to give a benefit for taking each objective. Like taking the 2 northern towers before assaulting the keep allows you to treb the keep from both sides dividing their forces. Of course all the while you could very well go through water gate at the same time, and the towers could just be a diversion. You want both the offensive and defensive forces to have many ways to attack targets in any order to prevent it from being as stale.

Of course you would have to make a point to winning or taking objectives at all, as currently there really isn’t any point in doing so. You have nothing to really lose/ gain due to the new system. I agree the new DBL’s towers are beyond useless.. along with the rest of the map.

Though making the maps more linear would make them more monotonous, not less.

lil devils x.6071:

Phantom.8130:

lil devils x.6071:

Dal.5872:

All we really wanted changed had they listened was the Alpine Borderland, slightly stretched, so that towers and keeps cannot be trebbed from each other. “LESS PvE” and 2 more towers in the top left and right corners in the unused Centaur and Skritt camps.

New texture and a bit of finetuning here and there, even going so far as redesigning towers and keeps to justify the expansion. But not the current maze like monstrosities we currently have to navigate.

Who wanted that? Being able to treb from towers/ keeps is what makes them strategic objectives giving you an actual reason to defend them. Now there is no reason to defend the towers… or with the auto WP the keeps as well. You should be able to hit targets from other objectives, it makes them more valuable.

Actually, if the towers were in front of the keeps, so that you’d actually have to deal with the towers before being able to advance to the keep, THAT would give them actual strategic relevance. The towers on the old borderlands had minor relevance, because they could treb the keeps. But for actual relevance, they’d need to block the paths to the keeps, and also be able to treb them. But right now, they don’t do either. ~
snip.

No, forcing you to take the towers before the keep would make it too easy. The fact that you can attack anything from any direction and in any order makes it more strategic and challenging. Forcing your opponent to make choices and distracting them with other targets and multiple targets at once is what makes it not as boring. Linear chokepoints or specified order of attack = Predictable boring same ol’ same ol’ monotonous game play. You want to be able to attack all objectives in any way possible, in any order possible, from multiple directions at once forcing people to make choices so that you do not have stale game play. The more you limit which targets can be attacked, by what methods from where the more predictable the gameplay becomes. Instead you need to give a benefit for taking each objective. Like taking the 2 northern towers before assaulting the keep allows you to treb the keep from both sides dividing their forces. Of course all the while you could very well go through water gate at the same time, and the towers could just be a diversion. You want both the offensive and defensive forces to have many ways to attack targets in any order to prevent it from being as stale.

Of course you would have to make a point to winning or taking objectives at all, as currently there really isn’t any point in doing so. You have nothing to really lose/ gain due to the new system. I agree the new DBL’s towers are beyond useless.. along with the rest of the map.

Though making the maps more linear would make them more monotonous, not less.

Problem with the non-linear design is that with too few players, people dont notice each other and there wont be any combat.

The way the old border did garri and connected towers was so much better than how desert does it (actually, desert doesnt do anything). It didnt force you to take the towers, but anyone approaching garri from the sides had to go past them. Didnt like that? Well then you had 3 other chokepoints to go through. Perfect.

With desert a force can suddenly appear on any side of garri, completely bypassing what should have been defensive lines. Its the wrong kind of non linear fights.

Dawdler.8521:

lil devils x.6071:

Phantom.8130:

lil devils x.6071:

Dal.5872:

All we really wanted changed had they listened was the Alpine Borderland, slightly stretched, so that towers and keeps cannot be trebbed from each other. “LESS PvE” and 2 more towers in the top left and right corners in the unused Centaur and Skritt camps.

New texture and a bit of finetuning here and there, even going so far as redesigning towers and keeps to justify the expansion. But not the current maze like monstrosities we currently have to navigate.

Who wanted that? Being able to treb from towers/ keeps is what makes them strategic objectives giving you an actual reason to defend them. Now there is no reason to defend the towers… or with the auto WP the keeps as well. You should be able to hit targets from other objectives, it makes them more valuable.

Actually, if the towers were in front of the keeps, so that you’d actually have to deal with the towers before being able to advance to the keep, THAT would give them actual strategic relevance. The towers on the old borderlands had minor relevance, because they could treb the keeps. But for actual relevance, they’d need to block the paths to the keeps, and also be able to treb them. But right now, they don’t do either. ~
snip.

No, forcing you to take the towers before the keep would make it too easy. The fact that you can attack anything from any direction and in any order makes it more strategic and challenging. Forcing your opponent to make choices and distracting them with other targets and multiple targets at once is what makes it not as boring. Linear chokepoints or specified order of attack = Predictable boring same ol’ same ol’ monotonous game play. You want to be able to attack all objectives in any way possible, in any order possible, from multiple directions at once forcing people to make choices so that you do not have stale game play. The more you limit which targets can be attacked, by what methods from where the more predictable the gameplay becomes. Instead you need to give a benefit for taking each objective. Like taking the 2 northern towers before assaulting the keep allows you to treb the keep from both sides dividing their forces. Of course all the while you could very well go through water gate at the same time, and the towers could just be a diversion. You want both the offensive and defensive forces to have many ways to attack targets in any order to prevent it from being as stale.

Of course you would have to make a point to winning or taking objectives at all, as currently there really isn’t any point in doing so. You have nothing to really lose/ gain due to the new system. I agree the new DBL’s towers are beyond useless.. along with the rest of the map.

Though making the maps more linear would make them more monotonous, not less.

Problem with the non-linear design is that with too few players, people dont notice each other and there wont be any combat.

The way the old border did garri and connected towers was so much better than how desert does it (actually, desert doesnt do anything). It didnt force you to take the towers, but anyone approaching garri from the sides had to go past them. Didnt like that? Well then you had 3 other chokepoints to go through. Perfect.

With desert a force can suddenly appear on any side of garri, completely bypassing what should have been defensive lines. Its the wrong kind of non linear fights.

Too few people = too many servers open, maps too big, too many ways to avoid fights. Create smaller, flatter, maps and less servers, not predictable boring linear ones.

You do not need linear or chokepoints to accomplish that. Just solve the map size and number of servers open. Yes, the Alpine maps were much better designed than the Desert maps, though I think EBG was even better due to more fighting opportunities.

Making you go backwards to go forwards = lame, which even the Alpine maps were guilty of. All that does is make you spend more time out of action trying to get to the action rather than actually fighting. Players need maps where they spend most of their time fighting, not looking for fights.

lil devils x.6071:

Phantom.8130:

lil devils x.6071:

Dal.5872:

All we really wanted changed had they listened was the Alpine Borderland, slightly stretched, so that towers and keeps cannot be trebbed from each other. “LESS PvE” and 2 more towers in the top left and right corners in the unused Centaur and Skritt camps.

New texture and a bit of finetuning here and there, even going so far as redesigning towers and keeps to justify the expansion. But not the current maze like monstrosities we currently have to navigate.

Who wanted that? Being able to treb from towers/ keeps is what makes them strategic objectives giving you an actual reason to defend them. Now there is no reason to defend the towers… or with the auto WP the keeps as well. You should be able to hit targets from other objectives, it makes them more valuable.

Actually, if the towers were in front of the keeps, so that you’d actually have to deal with the towers before being able to advance to the keep, THAT would give them actual strategic relevance. The towers on the old borderlands had minor relevance, because they could treb the keeps. But for actual relevance, they’d need to block the paths to the keeps, and also be able to treb them. But right now, they don’t do either. ~
snip.

No, forcing you to take the towers before the keep would make it too easy. The fact that you can attack anything from any direction and in any order makes it more strategic and challenging. Forcing your opponent to make choices and distracting them with other targets and multiple targets at once is what makes it not as boring. Linear chokepoints or specified order of attack = Predictable boring same ol’ same ol’ monotonous game play. You want to be able to attack all objectives in any way possible, in any order possible, from multiple directions at once forcing people to make choices so that you do not have stale game play. The more you limit which targets can be attacked, by what methods from where the more predictable the gameplay becomes. Instead you need to give a benefit for taking each objective. Like taking the 2 northern towers before assaulting the keep allows you to treb the keep from both sides dividing their forces. Of course all the while you could very well go through water gate at the same time, and the towers could just be a diversion. You want both the offensive and defensive forces to have many ways to attack targets in any order to prevent it from being as stale.

Of course you would have to make a point to winning or taking objectives at all, as currently there really isn’t any point in doing so. You have nothing to really lose/ gain due to the new system. I agree the new DBL’s towers are beyond useless.. along with the rest of the map.

Though making the maps more linear would make them more monotonous, not less.

It goes both ways, though. There has to be viable offensive strategy, but defensively the areas have to be laid out strategically as well. Otherwise, it damages motivation to play defense. If I’m supposed to defend an series of areas, I don’t want to be handicapped from the start by the layout. Offense has always had the bulk of the options open to it, defense has always been hamstringed.

Also, there would still be options for offense. You have two towers to target. You can all push one, split up and hit both to stretch defenders thing, or run a big distraction at one while a small group ninjas the other, or set up a treb and a siege farm counter punch. You don’t lose offensive strategy, you just gain defensive viability. Which balances out the playing field, which makes things more competitive overall.

And to be honest, things wouldn’t get nearly as stale as you think. There would never be a “one best way to do it”. There would always be good and bad ways, and good and bad counters, and all of this counter play would keep things evolving. And the fights would never be stale, because it’s not prescripted PvE mobs, it’s free thinking players. Which in itself creates limitless variety. Hell, look at the entire GvG scene. They’ve been doing that for years, and they just need a flat open space to do it in. Yet, things are always evolving on that front, and always fresh enough to keep people interested, because it’s dynamic by its very nature. Players fighting players creates enough variety, that players shouldn’t have to fight bad map design to artificially try to allow creativity for one side, at the expense of the other.

Right now, the new borderlands are the epitome of offensive choices…… and it’s barren, loathed and used primarily just for a ktrain. Put in defensive viability, and strategically important locations, and that changes over night. Especially now that the waypoints are back in the keeps (though they still need to fix those to be unlocked at tier 3 for whatever server holds the keep). The best thing for the game mode is promoted conflict, and the maps have to be designed to do that. Players have to be able to capture territory a little bit at a time, players have to be able to defend several areas within their territory, and players have to have clear avenues to find or create fights. Large groups should focus on the direct approach, while small groups should focus on the indirect approach. Large groups can handle the main avenues, and focus on attacking the towers to push to the keep or defending the towers, or duking it out in the open field on the way to one of the towers as a giant territorial tug of war. And small groups can handle supply denial by capping camps and kill yaks, while pulling off the occasional ninja attack in harmony with the large group, or they can focus on defending a tower and getting it ready to handle the next inevitable attack.

Phantom.8130:

lil devils x.6071:

Phantom.8130:

lil devils x.6071:

Dal.5872:

All we really wanted changed had they listened was the Alpine Borderland, slightly stretched, so that towers and keeps cannot be trebbed from each other. “LESS PvE” and 2 more towers in the top left and right corners in the unused Centaur and Skritt camps.

New texture and a bit of finetuning here and there, even going so far as redesigning towers and keeps to justify the expansion. But not the current maze like monstrosities we currently have to navigate.

Who wanted that? Being able to treb from towers/ keeps is what makes them strategic objectives giving you an actual reason to defend them. Now there is no reason to defend the towers… or with the auto WP the keeps as well. You should be able to hit targets from other objectives, it makes them more valuable.

Actually, if the towers were in front of the keeps, so that you’d actually have to deal with the towers before being able to advance to the keep, THAT would give them actual strategic relevance. The towers on the old borderlands had minor relevance, because they could treb the keeps. But for actual relevance, they’d need to block the paths to the keeps, and also be able to treb them. But right now, they don’t do either. ~
snip.

No, forcing you to take the towers before the keep would make it too easy. The fact that you can attack anything from any direction and in any order makes it more strategic and challenging. Forcing your opponent to make choices and distracting them with other targets and multiple targets at once is what makes it not as boring. Linear chokepoints or specified order of attack = Predictable boring same ol’ same ol’ monotonous game play. You want to be able to attack all objectives in any way possible, in any order possible, from multiple directions at once forcing people to make choices so that you do not have stale game play. The more you limit which targets can be attacked, by what methods from where the more predictable the gameplay becomes. Instead you need to give a benefit for taking each objective. Like taking the 2 northern towers before assaulting the keep allows you to treb the keep from both sides dividing their forces. Of course all the while you could very well go through water gate at the same time, and the towers could just be a diversion. You want both the offensive and defensive forces to have many ways to attack targets in any order to prevent it from being as stale.

Of course you would have to make a point to winning or taking objectives at all, as currently there really isn’t any point in doing so. You have nothing to really lose/ gain due to the new system. I agree the new DBL’s towers are beyond useless.. along with the rest of the map.

Though making the maps more linear would make them more monotonous, not less.

It goes both ways, though. There has to be viable offensive strategy, but defensively the areas have to be laid out strategically as well. Otherwise, it damages motivation to play defense. If I’m supposed to defend an series of areas, I don’t want to be handicapped from the start by the layout. Offense has always had the bulk of the options open to it, defense has always been hamstringed.

Also, there would still be options for offense. You have two towers to target. You can all push one, split up and hit both to stretch defenders thing, or run a big distraction at one while a small group ninjas the other, or set up a treb and a siege farm counter punch. You don’t lose offensive strategy, you just gain defensive viability. Which balances out the playing field, which makes things more competitive overall.

And to be honest, things wouldn’t get nearly as stale as you think. There would never be a “one best way to do it”. There would always be good and bad ways, and good and bad counters, and all of this counter play would keep things evolving. And the fights would never be stale, because it’s not prescripted PvE mobs, it’s free thinking players. Which in itself creates limitless variety. Hell, look at the entire GvG scene. They’ve been doing that for years, and they just need a flat open space to do it in. Yet, things are always evolving on that front, and always fresh enough to keep people interested, because it’s dynamic by its very nature. Players fighting players creates enough variety, that players shouldn’t have to fight bad map design to artificially try to allow creativity for one side, at the expense of the other.

Right now, the new borderlands are the epitome of offensive choices…… and it’s barren, loathed and used primarily just for a ktrain. Put in defensive viability, and strategically important locations, and that changes over night. Especially now that the waypoints are back in the keeps (though they still need to fix those to be unlocked at tier 3 for whatever server holds the keep). The best thing for the game mode is promoted conflict, and the maps have to be designed to do that. Players have to be able to capture territory a little bit at a time, players have to be able to defend several areas within their territory, and players have to have clear avenues to find or create fights. Large groups should focus on the direct approach, while small groups should focus on the indirect approach. Large groups can handle the main avenues, and focus on attacking the towers to push to the keep or defending the towers, or duking it out in the open field on the way to one of the towers as a giant territorial tug of war. And small groups can handle supply denial by capping camps and kill yaks, while pulling off the occasional ninja attack in harmony with the large group, or they can focus on defending a tower and getting it ready to handle the next inevitable attack.

Defending has always been too easy, now not only did they make it even easier, they made no point in doing so. The defending team has their siege already built, they knock down the offensive siege before they ever get it built.. In Alpine you can treb like mad from the 2nd and 3rd floor in gari so it is definitely harder to take than to defend if your team is properly prepared. Defending is easy, just there is no point in doing so since the rewards are not there and it is still boring to siege hump. Usually you just push out and wipe the offensive team anyhow if you do not want to be bored to tears waiting for all the walls to go down and let them in to bag farm them, so not only do you get to fight under siege from your keep you have walls protecting it, and to run back to to reset to wipe the opposing force.

Yes, they do get that stale. I have been doing this a LONG time..been there done linear chokepoints to death, need something a bit more interesting because that greatly limits options. Players fighting payers does not create as much variety as you may think.. I have played many tier against many guilds and do not really see that at all. You get to the point you do not even have to think to know what the enemy is going to do and how to wreck them after so many. There is a best way to do it. Everything in the game is math.. Everything in every game is math… To make it better you add more ways to attack, what to attack,when and from where to control the battlefield and force your opponents hand otherwise it does get old fast.

Even when playing games like EVE online, combat can become predictable so you have to try very hard to keep it from doing so. Linear is the opposite of that. Trying to find forces that are not one push material to begin with to duke it out with is hard enough as it is, making so they have to attack specific targets just makes them give up even faster since if they cannot take one objective they will just log out since there is nothing else for them to do. Yes, a flat open space even allows for more strategy than linear choke points, that is exactly what I was saying. since you can change movement / direction attack from any angle on the battlefield, unlike choke points and linear game play which removes that.

The Desert borderlands are massive PVE filled Gimmicky abysses.. not strategic maps that encourage PVP game play. There is no point in defending or taking anything there, no point in running around aimlessly looking for nonexistent fights, really.. no point in going there at all…

lil devils x.6071:

Defending has always been too easy, now not only did they make it even easier, they made no point in doing so. The defending team has their siege already built, they knock down the offensive siege before they ever get it built.. In Alpine you can treb like mad from the 2nd and 3rd floor in gari so it is definitely harder to take than to defend if your team is properly prepared. Defending is easy, just there is no point in doing so since the rewards are not there and it is still boring to siege hump. Usually you just push out and wipe the offensive team anyhow if you do not ant to be bored to tears, so not only do you get to fight under siege from your keep you have walls protecting it, and to run back to to reset to wipe the opposing force.

Yes, they do get that stale. I have been doing this a LONG time..been there done linear chokepoints to death, need something a bit more interesting because that greatly limits options. Players fighting payers does not create as much variety as you may think.. I have played many tier against many guilds and do not really see that at all. You get to the point you do not even have to think to know what the enemy is going to do and how to wreck them after so many. There is a best way to do it. Everything in the game is math.. Everything in every game is math… To make it better you add more ways to attack, what to attack,when and from where to control the battlefield and force your opponents hand otherwise it does get old fast.

Even when playing games like EVE online, combat can become predictable so you have to try very hard to keep it from doing so. Linear is the opposite of that. Trying to find forces that are not one push material to begin with to duke it out with is hard enough as it is, making so they have to attack specific targets just makes them give up even faster since if they cannot take one objective they will just log out since there is nothing else for them to do. Yes, a flat open space even allows for more strategy than linear choke points, that is exactly what I was saying. since you can change movement / direction attack from any angle on the battlefield, unlike choke points and linear game play which removes that.

The Desert borderlands are massive PVE filled Gimmicky abysses.. not strategic maps that encourage PVP game play. There is no point in defending or taking anything there, no point in running around aimlessly looking for nonexistent fights, really.. no point in going there at all…

If you honestly think that defending has always been too easy, then I don’t know what to say. I’ve been doing this a long time as well. I’ve led on offense and I’ve led on defense. I’ve always found offense to be far easier due to the sheer number of options available to me. Send a couple scouts out to scope out the areas and clear out oil, cannons and mortars while you get your group filled up on supplies. Pick the soft targets. Attack from multiple angles, in multiple stages. Have a ninja group coming in from the other side, or attacking a different target. A paper tower shouldn’t take longer than 3 minutes to capture. 15 minutes for fully fortified.

I ended up becoming a defensive specialist because that’s where the need and the challenge was. Setting up counter siege and positioning it in just the right direction (and hoping someone doesn’t come in an turn it towards the gate, so you have to turn it back after they leave). Making sure you had each piece set up to counter each singular attack method. Hoping they didn’t come at you from 2 angles at once. Knowing that the cannons and mortars, and even the walls, were completely useless deathtraps against even a semi-competent attacking group. Watching kitten-60 people just autoattack the gate down, even though you killed all their siege. Knowing that when that gate was down, you had one chance to defend, but they could just keep flinging more bodies and siege at you until they succeeded.

Though I do agree with you completely about the new maps. Now the towers have no more relevance than the skritt and centaur used to. And the sheer number of gimmicks completely overshadow the game mode itself. Though Anet’s always had a bizarre fetish for gimmick mechanics. The class design speaks volumes on that just in itself.

We came up with a map design in this thread here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Constructive-Features-for-a-good-BL-map/page/2#post5813939 Let me know what you think of it.

Phantom.8130:

lil devils x.6071:

Defending has always been too easy, now not only did they make it even easier, they made no point in doing so. The defending team has their siege already built, they knock down the offensive siege before they ever get it built.. In Alpine you can treb like mad from the 2nd and 3rd floor in gari so it is definitely harder to take than to defend if your team is properly prepared. Defending is easy, just there is no point in doing so since the rewards are not there and it is still boring to siege hump. Usually you just push out and wipe the offensive team anyhow if you do not ant to be bored to tears, so not only do you get to fight under siege from your keep you have walls protecting it, and to run back to to reset to wipe the opposing force.

Yes, they do get that stale. I have been doing this a LONG time..been there done linear chokepoints to death, need something a bit more interesting because that greatly limits options. Players fighting payers does not create as much variety as you may think.. I have played many tier against many guilds and do not really see that at all. You get to the point you do not even have to think to know what the enemy is going to do and how to wreck them after so many. There is a best way to do it. Everything in the game is math.. Everything in every game is math… To make it better you add more ways to attack, what to attack,when and from where to control the battlefield and force your opponents hand otherwise it does get old fast.

Even when playing games like EVE online, combat can become predictable so you have to try very hard to keep it from doing so. Linear is the opposite of that. Trying to find forces that are not one push material to begin with to duke it out with is hard enough as it is, making so they have to attack specific targets just makes them give up even faster since if they cannot take one objective they will just log out since there is nothing else for them to do. Yes, a flat open space even allows for more strategy than linear choke points, that is exactly what I was saying. since you can change movement / direction attack from any angle on the battlefield, unlike choke points and linear game play which removes that.

The Desert borderlands are massive PVE filled Gimmicky abysses.. not strategic maps that encourage PVP game play. There is no point in defending or taking anything there, no point in running around aimlessly looking for nonexistent fights, really.. no point in going there at all…

If you honestly think that defending has always been too easy, then I don’t know what to say. I’ve been doing this a long time as well. I’ve led on offense and I’ve led on defense. I’ve always found offense to be far easier due to the sheer number of options available to me. Send a couple scouts out to scope out the areas and clear out oil, cannons and mortars while you get your group filled up on supplies. Pick the soft targets. Attack from multiple angles, in multiple stages. Have a ninja group coming in from the other side, or attacking a different target. A paper tower shouldn’t take longer than 3 minutes to capture. 15 minutes for fully fortified.

I ended up becoming a defensive specialist because that’s where the need and the challenge was. Setting up counter siege and positioning it in just the right direction (and hoping someone doesn’t come in an turn it towards the gate, so you have to turn it back after they leave). Making sure you had each piece set up to counter each singular attack method. Hoping they didn’t come at you from 2 angles at once. Knowing that the cannons and mortars, and even the walls, were completely useless deathtraps against even a semi-competent attacking group. Watching kitten-60 people just autoattack the gate down, even though you killed all their siege. Knowing that when that gate was down, you had one chance to defend, but they could just keep flinging more bodies and siege at you until they succeeded.

Though I do agree with you completely about the new maps. Now the towers have no more relevance than the skritt and centaur used to. And the sheer number of gimmicks completely overshadow the game mode itself. Though Anet’s always had a bizarre fetish for gimmick mechanics. The class design speaks volumes on that just in itself.

We came up with a map design in this thread here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Constructive-Features-for-a-good-BL-map/page/2#post5813939 Let me know what you think of it.

It is easy as hell to defend.. If we show up we keep it…If that isn’t happening then you need to rethink what it is you are doing because it is easy as hell. You are fighting under your own siege with your spawn right there, if your team shows up I cannot think of a reason you should lose it. If you lose it at that point you deserve to lose it.

Hopefully you are only building superior siege, multiple trebs for each door, siege on the supply hut, unhittable ACs on the ground ( you can also protect other siege with cata bubbles).. Even when we had TC and BG map queues inside our keep at same time with walls down working together, we only lost it if we made bad calls…

Now if when your commander calls for people to stack on pin and people run around on the walls like a bunch O looney nubs instead, then ye,s the server deserves the loss for not pushing with pin and saving your keeps. In addition, it often helps when fighting a map blob to dual pin and hammer anvil it to take out their backline rather than just blob it up. In addition, your classes and builds for your party composition are not just important for GvG and offense, they are important for your defensive fights as well. Playing classes and using builds that are beneficial for the group pays off in the end. You should have 1 guard per party, front line and back line necros enough healer eles for your group, proper veils from Mesmer ect.. People should not expect to win fights running around on whatever they feel like doing whatever.. They need to actually set these things up proper.

We not only want them to come at us from 2 angles but from both towers, WG, SE gate and Suicide if we want it to be actually fun.

EDIT: also the link is not working for me for some reason, the thread is showing blank. I just hope whatever map they come up with is more like EBG and not a giant, linear, choke pointed, bouncy PVE environmental disaster mess. LOL

lil devils x.6071:

Phantom.8130:

lil devils x.6071:

Defending has always been too easy, now not only did they make it even easier, they made no point in doing so. The defending team has their siege already built, they knock down the offensive siege before they ever get it built.. In Alpine you can treb like mad from the 2nd and 3rd floor in gari so it is definitely harder to take than to defend if your team is properly prepared. Defending is easy, just there is no point in doing so since the rewards are not there and it is still boring to siege hump. Usually you just push out and wipe the offensive team anyhow if you do not ant to be bored to tears, so not only do you get to fight under siege from your keep you have walls protecting it, and to run back to to reset to wipe the opposing force.

Yes, they do get that stale. I have been doing this a LONG time..been there done linear chokepoints to death, need something a bit more interesting because that greatly limits options. Players fighting payers does not create as much variety as you may think.. I have played many tier against many guilds and do not really see that at all. You get to the point you do not even have to think to know what the enemy is going to do and how to wreck them after so many. There is a best way to do it. Everything in the game is math.. Everything in every game is math… To make it better you add more ways to attack, what to attack,when and from where to control the battlefield and force your opponents hand otherwise it does get old fast.

Even when playing games like EVE online, combat can become predictable so you have to try very hard to keep it from doing so. Linear is the opposite of that. Trying to find forces that are not one push material to begin with to duke it out with is hard enough as it is, making so they have to attack specific targets just makes them give up even faster since if they cannot take one objective they will just log out since there is nothing else for them to do. Yes, a flat open space even allows for more strategy than linear choke points, that is exactly what I was saying. since you can change movement / direction attack from any angle on the battlefield, unlike choke points and linear game play which removes that.

The Desert borderlands are massive PVE filled Gimmicky abysses.. not strategic maps that encourage PVP game play. There is no point in defending or taking anything there, no point in running around aimlessly looking for nonexistent fights, really.. no point in going there at all…

If you honestly think that defending has always been too easy, then I don’t know what to say. I’ve been doing this a long time as well. I’ve led on offense and I’ve led on defense. I’ve always found offense to be far easier due to the sheer number of options available to me. Send a couple scouts out to scope out the areas and clear out oil, cannons and mortars while you get your group filled up on supplies. Pick the soft targets. Attack from multiple angles, in multiple stages. Have a ninja group coming in from the other side, or attacking a different target. A paper tower shouldn’t take longer than 3 minutes to capture. 15 minutes for fully fortified.

I ended up becoming a defensive specialist because that’s where the need and the challenge was. Setting up counter siege and positioning it in just the right direction (and hoping someone doesn’t come in an turn it towards the gate, so you have to turn it back after they leave). Making sure you had each piece set up to counter each singular attack method. Hoping they didn’t come at you from 2 angles at once. Knowing that the cannons and mortars, and even the walls, were completely useless deathtraps against even a semi-competent attacking group. Watching kitten-60 people just autoattack the gate down, even though you killed all their siege. Knowing that when that gate was down, you had one chance to defend, but they could just keep flinging more bodies and siege at you until they succeeded.

Though I do agree with you completely about the new maps. Now the towers have no more relevance than the skritt and centaur used to. And the sheer number of gimmicks completely overshadow the game mode itself. Though Anet’s always had a bizarre fetish for gimmick mechanics. The class design speaks volumes on that just in itself.

We came up with a map design in this thread here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Constructive-Features-for-a-good-BL-map/page/2#post5813939 Let me know what you think of it.

It is easy as hell to defend.. If we show up we keep it…If that isn’t happening then you need to rethink what it is you are doing because it is easy as hell. You are fighting under your own siege with your spawn right there, if your team shows up I cannot think of a reason you should lose it. If you lose it at that point you deserve to lose it.

Hopefully you are only building superior siege, multiple trebs for each door, siege on the supply hut, unhittable ACs on the ground ( you can also protect other siege with cata bubbles).. Even when we had TC and BG map queues inside our keep at same time with walls down working together, we only lost it if we made bad calls…

Now if when your commander calls for people to stack on pin and people run around on the walls like a bunch O looney nubs instead, then ye,s the server deserves the loss for not pushing with pin and saving your keeps. In addition, it often helps when fighting a map blob to dual pin and hammer anvil it to take out their backline rather than just blob it up. In addition, your classes and builds for your party composition are not just important for GvG and offense, they are important for your defensive fights as well. Playing classes and using builds that are beneficial for the group pays off in the end. You should have 1 guard per party, front line and back line necros enough healer eles for your group, proper veils from Mesmer ect.. People should not expect to win fights running around on whatever they feel like doing whatever.. They need to actually set these things up proper.

We not only want them to come at us from 2 angles but from both towers, WG, SE gate and Suicide if we want it to be actually fun.

EDIT: also the link is not working for me for some reason, the thread is showing blank. I just hope whatever map they come up with is more like EBG and not a giant, linear, choke pointed, bouncy PVE environmental disaster mess. LOL

I’m on TC. I actually wrote TC’s borderland defensive siege guide. Which was originally designed during the orb era to deal with BG and SOR when they first superstacked and severely outnumbered us, so that we’d at least be able to hold onto some territory while they flung absurd numbers of bodies and siege at us, then respawned and rushed back over and over.

And while, yeah, if you’re just doing a single rush on a single area, things are close to even. But defense isn’t about a single area, it’s about a series of areas. And offense always has the option to respawn and try again if they fail. However, there’s a lot of poor offense that happens, where a zerg thinks that all they need to do is just plop down a few rams and that should be all. Rams were obsolete by the end of 2012. They made a partial come back when they got gate vulnerability for golem rushes, but are only really good as your sole form of offense if there aren’t any defenders. Proper offense starts much further back, with trebs from multiple angles to soften up interior siege, starting at the top with the counter trebs and working your way down from there to the walls. Then catas to finish the walls off. Then you send a mesmer in to port your zerg up onto the wall, you clear any remaining siege and wipe the defenders from there. Though if your mesmer can get right up to the Lord’s room, that’s even better. Of course, there’s always the “10 Omega” rushes, which have their own set of dynamics.

However, it doesn’t change the fact that the walls, oil, and cannons are deathtraps against even a semi-competent offensive group. Offense has options and flexibility, and can pick and choose its target(s). While defense is very strict, and has to cover multiple areas, even when they’re not being attacked, and are at a territorial disadvantage due to the layout. If nothing else, they should at least swap the positions of the garrison and north camp, so that you at least have to run past the towers to get it, even if the towers don’t block off the way to it.

And I definitely agree with you on what new maps should look like, though I’d prefer things spread out a little more than they are on EB, so that there’s more open space between areas, though they should still be within treb range of each other. But I don’t think they’re actually going to make new maps. Anet’s never been good about admitting their mistakes, especially when it comes to WvW. So they’ll probably jockey to put in an EotM megaserver system, so that even though the total population numbers are plummeting, they can show videos of “hundreds of people fighting each other”, even though it would all be smoke and mirrors. Until there’s not enough people left to even fill that up, which I’m guessing would take a year. Sadly, if they didn’t keep tanking their game mode and driving players off in frustration, they wouldn’t need to keep trying to create the illusion of a vibrant, happy playerbase. They’d actually have one.

Phantom.8130:

lil devils x.6071:

Phantom.8130:

lil devils x.6071:

Defending has always been too easy, now not only did they make it even easier, they made no point in doing so. The defending team has their siege already built, they knock down the offensive siege before they ever get it built.. In Alpine you can treb like mad from the 2nd and 3rd floor in gari so it is definitely harder to take than to defend if your team is properly prepared. Defending is easy, just there is no point in doing so since the rewards are not there and it is still boring to siege hump. Usually you just push out and wipe the offensive team anyhow if you do not ant to be bored to tears, so not only do you get to fight under siege from your keep you have walls protecting it, and to run back to to reset to wipe the opposing force.

Yes, they do get that stale. I have been doing this a LONG time..been there done linear chokepoints to death, need something a bit more interesting because that greatly limits options. Players fighting payers does not create as much variety as you may think.. I have played many tier against many guilds and do not really see that at all. You get to the point you do not even have to think to know what the enemy is going to do and how to wreck them after so many. There is a best way to do it. Everything in the game is math.. Everything in every game is math… To make it better you add more ways to attack, what to attack,when and from where to control the battlefield and force your opponents hand otherwise it does get old fast.

Even when playing games like EVE online, combat can become predictable so you have to try very hard to keep it from doing so. Linear is the opposite of that. Trying to find forces that are not one push material to begin with to duke it out with is hard enough as it is, making so they have to attack specific targets just makes them give up even faster since if they cannot take one objective they will just log out since there is nothing else for them to do. Yes, a flat open space even allows for more strategy than linear choke points, that is exactly what I was saying. since you can change movement / direction attack from any angle on the battlefield, unlike choke points and linear game play which removes that.

The Desert borderlands are massive PVE filled Gimmicky abysses.. not strategic maps that encourage PVP game play. There is no point in defending or taking anything there, no point in running around aimlessly looking for nonexistent fights, really.. no point in going there at all…

If you honestly think that defending has always been too easy, then I don’t know what to say. I’ve been doing this a long time as well. I’ve led on offense and I’ve led on defense. I’ve always found offense to be far easier due to the sheer number of options available to me. Send a couple scouts out to scope out the areas and clear out oil, cannons and mortars while you get your group filled up on supplies. Pick the soft targets. Attack from multiple angles, in multiple stages. Have a ninja group coming in from the other side, or attacking a different target. A paper tower shouldn’t take longer than 3 minutes to capture. 15 minutes for fully fortified.

I ended up becoming a defensive specialist because that’s where the need and the challenge was. Setting up counter siege and positioning it in just the right direction (and hoping someone doesn’t come in an turn it towards the gate, so you have to turn it back after they leave). Making sure you had each piece set up to counter each singular attack method. Hoping they didn’t come at you from 2 angles at once. Knowing that the cannons and mortars, and even the walls, were completely useless deathtraps against even a semi-competent attacking group. Watching kitten-60 people just autoattack the gate down, even though you killed all their siege. Knowing that when that gate was down, you had one chance to defend, but they could just keep flinging more bodies and siege at you until they succeeded.

Though I do agree with you completely about the new maps. Now the towers have no more relevance than the skritt and centaur used to. And the sheer number of gimmicks completely overshadow the game mode itself. Though Anet’s always had a bizarre fetish for gimmick mechanics. The class design speaks volumes on that just in itself.

We came up with a map design in this thread here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Constructive-Features-for-a-good-BL-map/page/2#post5813939 Let me know what you think of it.

It is easy as hell to defend.. If we show up we keep it…If that isn’t happening then you need to rethink what it is you are doing because it is easy as hell. You are fighting under your own siege with your spawn right there, if your team shows up I cannot think of a reason you should lose it. If you lose it at that point you deserve to lose it.

Hopefully you are only building superior siege, multiple trebs for each door, siege on the supply hut, unhittable ACs on the ground ( you can also protect other siege with cata bubbles).. Even when we had TC and BG map queues inside our keep at same time with walls down working together, we only lost it if we made bad calls…

Now if when your commander calls for people to stack on pin and people run around on the walls like a bunch O looney nubs instead, then ye,s the server deserves the loss for not pushing with pin and saving your keeps. In addition, it often helps when fighting a map blob to dual pin and hammer anvil it to take out their backline rather than just blob it up. In addition, your classes and builds for your party composition are not just important for GvG and offense, they are important for your defensive fights as well. Playing classes and using builds that are beneficial for the group pays off in the end. You should have 1 guard per party, front line and back line necros enough healer eles for your group, proper veils from Mesmer ect.. People should not expect to win fights running around on whatever they feel like doing whatever.. They need to actually set these things up proper.

We not only want them to come at us from 2 angles but from both towers, WG, SE gate and Suicide if we want it to be actually fun.

EDIT: also the link is not working for me for some reason, the thread is showing blank. I just hope whatever map they come up with is more like EBG and not a giant, linear, choke pointed, bouncy PVE environmental disaster mess. LOL

I’m on TC. I actually wrote TC’s borderland defensive siege guide. Which was originally designed during the orb era to deal with BG and SOR when they first superstacked and severely outnumbered us, so that we’d at least be able to hold onto some territory while they flung absurd numbers of bodies and siege at us, then respawned and rushed back over and over.

And while, yeah, if you’re just doing a single rush on a single area, things are close to even. But defense isn’t about a single area, it’s about a series of areas. And offense always has the option to respawn and try again if they fail. However, there’s a lot of poor offense that happens, where a zerg thinks that all they need to do is just plop down a few rams and that should be all. Rams were obsolete by the end of 2012. They made a partial come back when they got gate vulnerability for golem rushes, but are only really good as your sole form of offense if there aren’t any defenders. Proper offense starts much further back, with trebs from multiple angles to soften up interior siege, starting at the top with the counter trebs and working your way down from there to the walls. Then catas to finish the walls off. Then you send a mesmer in to port your zerg up onto the wall, you clear any remaining siege and wipe the defenders from there. Though if your mesmer can get right up to the Lord’s room, that’s even better. Of course, there’s always the “10 Omega” rushes, which have their own set of dynamics.

However, it doesn’t change the fact that the walls, oil, and cannons are deathtraps against even a semi-competent offensive group. Offense has options and flexibility, and can pick and choose its target(s). While defense is very strict, and has to cover multiple areas, even when they’re not being attacked, and are at a territorial disadvantage due to the layout. If nothing else, they should at least swap the positions of the garrison and north camp, so that you at least have to run past the towers to get it, even if the towers don’t block off the way to it.

And I definitely agree with you on what new maps should look like, though I’d prefer things spread out a little more than they are on EB, so that there’s more open space between areas, though they should still be within treb range of each other. But I don’t think they’re actually going to make new maps. Anet’s never been good about admitting their mistakes, especially when it comes to WvW. So they’ll probably jockey to put in an EotM megaserver system, so that even though the total population numbers are plummeting, they can show videos of “hundreds of people fighting each other”, even though it would all be smoke and mirrors. Until there’s not enough people left to even fill that up, which I’m guessing would take a year. Sadly, if they didn’t keep tanking their game mode and driving players off in frustration, they wouldn’t need to keep trying to create the illusion of a vibrant, happy playerbase. They’d actually have one.

From what I gathered from TC…
TC’s problem wasn’t siege placement but it was filled with RPers trying to sneak up on yaks.. J/k… Really though, TC lost keeps due to failure to push out properly moreso than anything. else I saw. Siege humping only helps so far.. they have to actually push out, have proper parties, classes and builds in your core of the zerg ( which TC did not have). We actually have a commander in our guild who has an account on TC that commands on TC as well.. People would not run proper builds, buy proper armor/ runes weapons or play their classes properly and if you told them to, they called you a " Try hard". Siege only goes so far.. you have to actually have a force that has a solid core group, not just a random blob with necros running soldiers ( before tanky necros were even viable) and no serious DPS. You could stand there all day in TC DPS and not worrying about dying. ( of course there were individual guilds that were the exception to this, but this applied to the pug blob in general).

That was why they would get one pushed while even fighting under their own siege (which they had ton of). They did not have proper party/ class build comps, and many did not know how to play the classes they were on properly. We actually had a guildie write a song for TC.. You may like it XD

https://soundcloud.com/hohotron/bag-space/s-smNu9

Both offense and defense has he option to respawn, and defense has the closer spawn giving defense the upper hand and more supply as well.. Defense has choice of targets as well. You can force your opponents hand just as much as they are forcing yours by making them choosel. If they are hitting one of your targets, make them pay for it. If they hit your gari, you hit their’s so that if they do not pull off to save their gari, they will lose theirs if they continue to hit yours.. You have to push back when pushed, just defense has the upper hand when doing so.

On reset during NA Prime Yaks Bend had no queues on EB or at times a very small one. I know the EB fights are enjoyable in T1 so at this point I guess the system is working. The long term outlook might be a bit scary for WvW but I guess we should enjoy what is working while we can.

If the #1 server (based on points… not trying to start anything) in T1 has a relatively low EB queue, it is likely that the declining population numbers are “fixing” WvW.

double post please delete.

Straegen.2938:

On reset during NA Prime Yaks Bend had no queues on EB or at times a very small one. I know the EB fights are enjoyable in T1 so at this point I guess the system is working. The long term outlook might be a bit scary for WvW but I guess we should enjoy what is working while we can.

If the #1 server (based on points… not trying to start anything) in T1 has a relatively low EB queue, it is likely that the declining population numbers are “fixing” WvW.

The lack of queues on EB is from guilds leaving YB to go to BG when BG opened up.. Not it " working itself out." lol. YB lost guilds to a competitor instead.. and JQ is refusing to PPT atm, not that YB is actually doing well.

I suggest turn over the new borderlands to some kind of pve event which requires siege and the likes. Maybe even put baddie fake players out there to make it challenging for them. Then give wvw their old borderlands back so we can focus on fighting other players.

lil devils x.6071:

The lack of queues on EB is from guilds leaving YB to go to BG when BG opened up.. Not it " working itself out." lol. YB lost guilds to a competitor instead.. and JQ is refusing to PPT atm, not that YB is actually doing well.

Guilds that left YB for BG were mostly to get a better balance in T1. The TW/Indo thing I believe was some guild-to-guild bickering and general server style differences. It also brought DK out of semi-retirement. The TW transfer probably saved T1 for quite some time as it did improve the NA Prime balance. The fights with BG since have been fantastic and the rivalry has been a healthy one IMO. Who doesn’t want to kill that little mithril necro when they see him? Sort of a badge of honor and respect for how tough TW can be at times.

YB has solid numbers for much of the day and arguably is still the more populated server. I think YB just plays the PPT game more and has gone back to its old ways of defend, defend, defend. To me the numbers in T1 are pretty similar across the board but that certainly is opinion.

lil devils x.6071:

From what I gathered from TC…
TC’s problem wasn’t siege placement but it was filled with RPers trying to sneak up on yaks.. J/k… Really though, TC lost keeps due to failure to push out properly moreso than anything. else I saw. Siege humping only helps so far.. they have to actually push out, have proper parties, classes and builds in your core of the zerg ( which TC did not have). We actually have a commander in our guild who has an account on TC that commands on TC as well.. People would not run proper builds, buy proper armor/ runes weapons or play their classes properly and if you told them to, they called you a " Try hard". Siege only goes so far.. you have to actually have a force that has a solid core group, not just a random blob with necros running soldiers ( before tanky necros were even viable) and no serious DPS. You could stand there all day in TC DPS and not worrying about dying. ( of course there were individual guilds that were the exception to this, but this applied to the pug blob in general).

That was why they would get one pushed while even fighting under their own siege (which they had ton of). They did not have proper party/ class build comps, and many did not know how to play the classes they were on properly. We actually had a guildie write a song for TC.. You may like it XD

https://soundcloud.com/hohotron/bag-space/s-smNu9

Both offense and defense has he option to respawn, and defense has the closer spawn giving defense the upper hand and more supply as well.. Defense has choice of targets as well. You can force your opponents hand just as much as they are forcing yours by making them choosel. If they are hitting one of your targets, make them pay for it. If they hit your gari, you hit their’s so that if they do not pull off to save their gari, they will lose theirs if they continue to hit yours.. You have to push back when pushed, just defense has the upper hand when doing so.

Ironically, TC was actually a lot tougher when we had more RPers in there. When a few people decided to “take things pro”, it actually weakened the server overall. It ruined the overall framework that everything was built around, and drove countless people out entirely. What’s worse, is when those few people got their wish, they bailed. There was a lot of destruction left behind, but things were finally starting to recover….. then HOT dropped and basically killed WvW entirely. However, if TC had never veered from from the path it was on by the end of tier 3, most of the problems that it’s had would have been avoided entirely. But…. people come in and don’t understand exactly what they’re dealing with, and try to force square pegs into round holes, turn toxic when it just…. doesn’t work, then drive the square pegs out and just…. make carbon copies of servers that previously imploded, magically expecting a different result. To further the irony, a lot of the people that transferred in and tried to “teach the TC yokels how to be good” were people that used to get farmed by TC’s militia being led by typing commanders. They couldn’t accept that they weren’t as good as they thought they were, so they started flexing ego, and blaming the militia for their shortcomings. Which drove off most of the militia, then they bailed too. Fortunately, the core of TC’s community has been strong enough to hold things together so as to not plummet through the ranks like so many other servers that have gone through the same ordeal.

Anyway, we’re getting off topic. What you’re describing is a counter offensive, not defense. It’s yet another option offense has, that actual defense doesn’t. If they’re hitting the garrison, we can’t move our defenders to the NE tower. That just doesn’t work. If they hit our garrison, our defenders have to respond to our garrison. A counter offensive force can be dispatched, but that’s not defense. Defense is the group in the area that’s being attacked, actively fending off the attackers. And while yes, both offense and defense can respawn, the dynamics are entirely different. If a offensive group wipes and respawns, they can just resupply and come right back to plugging away. If a defensive group wipes, they lose the area. The best they can do is set up mesmer ports and/or try to spam the waypoint in a desperate attempt to get back there to contest the area before it flips. That in itself is a heavy advantage to the offense.

As far as pushing out to deal with the attackers, that’s a timing thing. While you can just rush right out to meet them, it’s basically a coin flip situation, and if you lose you lose everything, but if you win they lose virtually nothing. You have to make sure they’re softened up enough to be able to wipe them when you push out, or else you’ve sacrificed defense for a gambit. And if your gambit doesn’t pay off, you lose the area entirely. It’s a high risk, low reward proposal. however, the more you soften it up, the more that shifts. The risk becomes less, and the chance of wiping them increases. Once the odds are in your favor, then you push out and clear them. Though, your best bet is a combination of 3 things. Static defense, dynamic defense, and counter offense. A group inside the tower/keep to work the siege, a zerg to meet the attackers in the field, and another zerg to push one of their priority areas. At that point, defense actually does gain the advantage, however that requires some coordination, trust and teamwork. It’s a lot easier to just run an omniblob and blame failures on pugs. Because, let’s be real here, there’s no real qualifications to become a commander. If you give a chimpanzee 300 gold, he can become a commander too. That doesn’t mean he’ll be a good commander, just that he’ll be out there leading groups to there deaths over and over. Unfortunately, what happens is that a lot of people think they’re the reincarnation of Sun Tzu because they have a dorito over their head, even if they don’t actually know anything beyond the very basics. They let ego get in the way of their judgement, they make bad strategic and tactical decisions, then look for scapegoats to blame it on. All while assuming they know more than anyone else. While the good commanders are constant students, studying everything they can, and always looking to improve. Unfortunately, there’s no way to tell which is which just at a glance. They both get the same doritos.

Phantom.8130:

snip

Trying to force square pegs into round holes is a problem, the players have to want to work as a team but if you have an entire team that all wants to do their own thing.. they will not be very good no matter what you do with them. Yes… we know much about TC’s Typemanders.. we have seen their videos. so beautiful you just cannot help but cry. LOL

Our commander that is on TC is not a typemander, and is still there honestly trying to help " the underdog" the best he can… besides I think he has an affinity for the RP. You couldn’t get a nicer guy trying to help. HAHA!

You don’t blame the militia.. you help the militia. But in the end you can lead a horse to water, but it is up to them whether or not they will drink. We took the scrubs of the server what others called the “garbage pugs” and pulled them together into proper parties classes and builds on JQ and it worked great for us forming one of the more difficult guilds to push into. It is just a matter of if the players on the server want to improve or get rolled.

You do not yell at people.. you talk to them and figure out what they enjoy doing and help them improve. when they see the difference themselves, they appreciate the help. Sometimes a good defense is a good offense, and you are incorrect about not leaving the keep to take tower.. we do it all the time and keep both, you just have to have people competent enough to troll the keep enough to keep them from capping it to do so. You have to have players you can count on.

Every server gets bad commanders, people figure out real quick though why they are running around pinned up with no one following them ..

lil devils x.6071:

Phantom.8130:

snip

Trying to force square pegs into round holes is a problem, the players have to want to work as a team but if you have an entire team that all wants to do their own thing.. they will not be very good no matter what you do with them. Yes… we know much about TC’s Typemanders.. we have seen their videos. so beautiful you just cannot help but cry. LOL

Our commander that is on TC is not a typemander, and is still there honestly trying to help " the underdog" the best he can… besides I think he has an affinity for the RP. You couldn’t get a nicer guy trying to help. HAHA!

You don’t blame the militia.. you help the militia. But in the end you can lead a horse to water, but it is up to them whether or not they will drink. We took the scrubs of the server what others called the “garbage pugs” and pulled them together into proper parties classes and builds on JQ and it worked great for us forming one of the more difficult guilds to push into. It is just a matter of if the players on the server want to improve or get rolled.

You do not yell at people.. you talk to them and figure out what they enjoy doing and help them improve. when they see the difference themselves, they appreciate the help. Sometimes a good defense is a good offense, and you are incorrect about not leaving the keep to take tower.. we do it all the time and keep both, you just have to have people competent enough to troll the keep enough to keep them from capping it to do so. You have to have players you can count on.

Every server gets bad commanders, people figure out real quick though why they are running around pinned up with no one following them ..

Oh, I am one of TC’s Typemanders as well. Well, I retired during season 2, but I was pretty active for a long while, and still contribute to strategy discussions. I also primarily led the militia as well, and I absolutely agree with what you’re saying. A lot of people tend to view pugs as inferior, simply because they’re not in a well known big guild, but I’ve always vehemently disagreed with that sentiment. With the proper leadership and guidance, they’re able to perform just as well as any guild group. What I learned is you have to work within the standards they set, not try to force them into working within your own standards. You have to spend each day earning their respect, and not demanding they earn your. Because at the end of the day, they follow you because they choose to, and they can just as easily choose to not follow you. I’ve always held TC’s militia in high esteem, and worked for them instead of expecting them to work for me. When I was actively commanding every day, TC’s militia was an absolutely dominant force. Because I and several others took the time to train them and work with them, and adjust our methods to what worked best for them. I’ve always wished we could get back to that point, because it was truly a sight to behold.

Anyway, about my point about the keep and tower. I don’t think I was very clear in my meaning. What I meant was, if I’m an attacker, and the defenders are all in the garrison, I can go attack a different spot and have a higher chance of success. But if I’m a defender, and the attackers are all in the garrison, I can’t go to defend a different spot, because then the garrison is lost with no resistance. As a defender, I have to respond to where the attackers are. The attackers get to pick and choose, and dictate the location, ferocity and duration of the attack, while the defenders can only prepare and try to be ready to respond to whatever’s thrown at them, anywhere it gets thrown, and for however long the throwing is going on. That gives the attackers flexibility that the defenders just don’t have, because they simply can’t afford to have it.

Yes this is true… to much Queue for EB and 0(!) queue for the new boring maps

Straegen.2938:

lil devils x.6071:

The lack of queues on EB is from guilds leaving YB to go to BG when BG opened up.. Not it " working itself out." lol. YB lost guilds to a competitor instead.. and JQ is refusing to PPT atm, not that YB is actually doing well.

Guilds that left YB for BG were mostly to get a better balance in T1. The TW/Indo thing I believe was some guild-to-guild bickering and general server style differences. It also brought DK out of semi-retirement. The TW transfer probably saved T1 for quite some time as it did improve the NA Prime balance. The fights with BG since have been fantastic and the rivalry has been a healthy one IMO. Who doesn’t want to kill that little mithril necro when they see him? Sort of a badge of honor and respect for how tough TW can be at times.

YB has solid numbers for much of the day and arguably is still the more populated server. I think YB just plays the PPT game more and has gone back to its old ways of defend, defend, defend. To me the numbers in T1 are pretty similar across the board but that certainly is opinion.

I really do not think YB could hang if we actually decide to PPT.. Even when one Guild decides to half try to PPT on JQ we come out ahead… I think YB has to work much harder for it tbh.

If even the NA T1 servers are complaining that their desert bls are also mostly empty there, then how do you think silver or even bronze league servers will be like?

T1 servers have the greatest population among the servers, so if they are having trouble then there is a real porblem.
And those that are in the desert bls are only there to do stuff whilst they wait for their EB queue to hit!

Even worse is why have we not had a single response from anet regarding this since launch of HoT?!