A Healthy WvW Meta-Game

A Healthy WvW Meta-Game

in WvW

Posted by: Sviel.7493

Sviel.7493

This is going to be long, so I’ll put a tl;dr up front: A healthy WvW meta-game must be able to support viable strategies for all servers whether they have exactly even numbers or if they are temporarily outnumbered to a moderate degree.

Details follow~


In any conflict, the best strategy will be exploited in full by all sides. Thus, when designing a game that centers around conflict, it is of paramount importance to consider what the optimal strategy is. Ideally, this strategy should not be self-sufficient—if it is, then no other strategies will be viable. In addition, it is even better to have several strategies that compete for the top spot. This is referred to as having a healthy meta-game. Here, I want to talk about the current contenders for best strategy in WvW and where we might want to go. First, I want to look at the strategies being employed by the current top servers. I’ll evaluate them based on how healthy they are and how effective. Second, I want to talk about what balance between offensive play and defensive play is healthy. Third, I want to propose a way to make mobility in WvW maps more dynamic and more reflective of player’s choices.


YAK’S BEND

Currently, the top server (Yak’s Bend) uses a strategy that is based heavily in aggressively recapping lost objectives and protecting those that are owned with massive amounts of siege. They also value communication and an extensive network of independent scouts. Most of the server is somewhat weaker in straight fights than their competitors, but their excellence in other areas means that doesn’t translate into losing points. Some parts of this strategy (communication and scouting) are fine. Other parts (massive siege defense) are stifling. The first two components are not self-sufficient—the last, however, appears to be. So long as there are people to man the siege, there’s no need for anything else.

However, I haven’t heard much in the way of people attempting to counter-act this strategy. A battery of Arrow Carts is likely vulnerable to one or two siege disablers—potentially thrown by stealth classes. The absolute worst thing to do is to attempt to engage the enemy head on, but this was the prevailing strategy of the day before the rise of YB and it has stubbornly stuck around. Since this is not likely successful under a hail of arrows, YB’s siege defense appears impenetrable.

There are several choices for reducing the effectiveness of siege bunkering. First, the siege cap can be lowered so that not as many Arrow Carts can be built. This sounds appealing, but it is too blunt of an approach. Either there will be room for enough Arrow Carts or there won’t—rather than diminishing the strategy by giving players tools to counter it, it simply disallows the strategy entirely. Second, Arrow Cart damage can be reduced to players. However, this falls into the same trap as the first. Third, Siege Disablers can be made less expensive. This would help, but might not be enough on its own. However, WvW should be about strategy versus strategy—not wallet versus wallet. Just like in PvP, no gold investment should be required to compete. There may be more that can be done here, but there first needs to be an effort to overcome the strategy before we can conclude that it is oppressive. Therefore, making the existing potential counter more easily available is a good first step.


JADE QUARRY/BLACKGATE

I’m lumping the number two and three servers together as they tend to use variations of a single strategy. They both focus on gathering in mid-to-large size groups and winning fights before taking largely unguarded objectives or in fighting in or around the lord’s room. In both cases, their defense and offense revolves around winning a large-scale fight.

Given even numbers, this is probably the most basic and also the healthiest strategy. Unfortunately, it quickly becomes oppressive with even a slight population imbalance. Even in a perfect tier with strictly even server capacity, if there’s any point in the day where one side has more people logged on, they will win every fight unless profoundly out-skilled. In addition, if one server brings much more people to the fight, they will win. Thus, if this is the best strategy, the only way to counter it is to bring more bodies to the fight. Any other strategy is choked out. This leads directly to the blob mentality and to the tendency for groups to focus solely on winning fights. This strategy is weakest defensively when more than one objective is contested as it forces the group to split up or abandon something. It is weakest offensively when attacking an objective fortified by siege. There is no need to diminish its effectiveness in terms of winning fights—we only need to make sure that it is employed in specific instances instead of being the default and the most effective. On defense, there is nothing stifling about this. It is potent but also has clear weaknesses. On offense, it is powerful once it gets through walls, but is less effective at actually breaking into an objective since an assault on a single point is easiest to mitigate. However, it is largely shut down by siege defense. Two things should happen to both boost this strategy while also keeping it in check offensively.

First, something must be done to allow in-the-moment counters to siege. As discussed earlier, it would likely be best to fit siege disablers into this role. The idea is not to make siege defenses totally ineffective, but to give them a weakness that can be exploited. The group, when it uses the tools at its disposal, should be able to win or lose any fight based on how well it uses those tools. Second, uncounterable offensive siege must be addressed. Whereas defensive siege can be killed by using height advantages or made irrelevant by assaulting from a distance, proxy catapults are impossible to deal with outside of abandoning the defensive structure to fight head on. Their existence means that defenders must fight the group at their strongest point or wait until the walls are down and use siege bunkering. If a way to break siege defenses becomes prevalent while proxy catapults exist, then the only way to deal with this strategy will be to use this strategy. That is the very definition of oppressive.


OFFENSIVE/DEFENSIVE BALANCE

Inevitably, population is the largest factor in determining what a healthy WvW looks like. It is fair to be slightly idealistic—we can assume that populations are reasonably even since, if they aren’t, no attempt at balance will be successful. Our goal should be to create a model that works for reasonably even total populations but does not fall apart during temporary imbalances throughout the day. That is, there should be viable strategies for every server at all times, whether they have the lowest current population, the highest, or even.

If the only way to defend a structure is by bringing a force of comparable size, a server that is currently less populous has no viable strategies for defense. On offense, they can only hope to attack and take a structure before any defense is established. In other words, players are encouraged to avoid interacting with other players in any way. Thus, it must be possible to defend with a smaller group than the attacking enemies. However, to avoid making offense futile outside of overwhelming force, this defense must be limited by supply. The components of this set-up are already in place: It is possible to counter offensive siege (save for a few exploits such as proxy catapults) so long as there is supply to build counter siege. Offensive groups have the advantage of hitting first, so they will likely do supply damage even if the assault ultimately fails. Finally, there is no way to replenish supply from within an objective (save for a single tactic with a 15m cooldown), so it will ultimately fall. Skilled offensive groups will be able to drain supply faster or breach the walls before supply is drained and then move on to a straight fight where their numbers will give them an advantage. Meanwhile, skilled defenders will be able to slow the enemy advance so that their server’s prime time gains stand. This model holds up both for even numbers and for inevitable imbalances.

If the only way to successfully assault a structure is by bringing a force of comparable size, a server that is currently less populous still has viable strategies for offense. They are unlikely to take any defended structures, but they can gain points by killing Yaks and flipping camps. If they are crafty, they can drain structures of supply and then converge on one and flip it before the defense can reorganize into a comparatively sized group. Offense’s advantage over defense lies in its mobility. Granted, with lower population, they must have allies defending or must be much more skilled in offense than their enemies are in defending or their server will hemorrhage points. The end result of this is that servers can either switch between offense and defense based on population or have some mix of the two with each individual player choosing the role they are best at. Thankfully, the components for this are already in place—they are simply overshadowed by more oppressive strategies.


MOBILITY

On the Alpine maps and EBG, mobility is created by waypoints and relatively flat terrain. On the Desert maps, it is created and restricted by waypoints and holding certain objectives. The particulars of this are up for discussion, but I want to suggest creating a more dynamic means of mobility.

Consider a new piece of siege: the Teleporter. It would function as a waypoint that is powered by supply. It would need to require a substantial amount of supply to set up—say, about 100, and would then cost at least 5 supply to use. It must be fragile and also fairly large so that it cannot be hidden easily. If found undefended, it will be easily destroyed, so it will either need a sizeable force nearby or a great hiding spot.

The idea is that large groups can get their members back into the fray quickly at the cost of dedicating supply to build the Teleporter and then draining member’s supply on use. Meanwhile, roaming groups can create a base of operations deep within enemy territory to better go about their trickery. Since it drains supply, it won’t be ideal for blitz attacks since it limits how much offensive siege can be built after using it. Defenders will have to be wary of enemies owning camps that they can reach from a nearby Teleporter but will be amply warned since the camp is not owned.

Defensively, the Teleporter will allow players to get into the fray but at the cost of draining the lifeblood of their defense: supply. Either they take supply from the besieged objective or they spend precious moments running to a camp before returning. Once the walls are breached, any Teleporter will be quickly found and destroyed. This would serve to both increase player interaction and also speed up sieges if it causes supply to drain more quickly.


CONCLUSION

The ideal meta for WvW should be multi-dimensional. That means that any one strategy should have its limits. Siege bunkering should be weak to a well-placed disabler. Blobs should not be able to bypass their weakness (single-point sieges) and skip to their strength (running things over). A skilled WvW assault group should be good at breaking up to quickly crack a structure and/or drain it of supply and at fighting together once the walls are down. A skilled WvW defense group should excel in countering siege, draining enemy players of supply and scouting assaults before damage is done. Additionally, population imbalance should be manageable on at least a temporary basis: If two servers have diametrically opposed high population times, the winner should be the one that attacks and defends the best at the appropriate times—not necessarily the one that karma trains hardest when it has the advantage. If a server has more low-pop times than high-pop, they should be able to compete by defending better than their opponents so long as they can also go on offense when needed. A server that has more high-pop times should not automatically win unless they do their jobs well.


P.S. It is necessary, when all is done, to make such things visible. There is currently no meaningful tutorial for WvW. At the very least, players should be able to have access to a list of guilds that will be willing to show them the ropes. They also need to know exactly how scoring is done.

A Healthy WvW Meta-Game

in WvW

Posted by: Zenith.6403

Zenith.6403

What makes a person type essays like these on the forums?

A Healthy WvW Meta-Game

in WvW

Posted by: gennyt.3428

gennyt.3428

Siege disablers aren’t the solution to seige bunkering if you can’t get into position to toss them. Want to know why people leave when they see 20 ACs? Well sure it’s not not fun for many to sit there and counter siege but many times, even when they do, the defenders bail after the final breach. Effectively making attackers grind out siege warfare for nothing. The defenders will run to another structure to do the same and immediately backcap when bored attackers leave. The game has a tendency of making the lowest hanging fruit the most effective.

WvWvW had servers engaging in multi-pronged attacks but a dwindling community and hollow victories mean less leadership and effort. Coverage aside, the changes made to the game over the years have ensured that these two tactics are optimal, biggest zerg and the most manned seige. There is so much that needs adjusting that I doubt the remaining WvWvW playerbase is worth it, sadly. People are probably going to be sorely disappointed in whatever is offered WvWvW in the future.

Whispers with meat.

A Healthy WvW Meta-Game

in WvW

Posted by: Sviel.7493

Sviel.7493

Disablers have 1,200 range, which is about half that of an Arrow Cart. With a bit of stealth or an attack from an unguarded angle, they should be usable at least. If this turns out to be ineffective, they could be tweaked.

It won’t make the defenders fight, though. If they’d rather run, that’s on them. Forcing them to fight is not a viable answer.

Like you said, hollow victories are probably the culprit. If there’s no reason to play other than fights, then anyone who plays at a time when populations are not very even is unlikely to have a good experience.

A Healthy WvW Meta-Game

in WvW

Posted by: Dusty Moon.4382

Dusty Moon.4382

Disablers have 1,200 range, which is about half that of an Arrow Cart. With a bit of stealth or an attack from an unguarded angle, they should be usable at least. If this turns out to be ineffective, they could be tweaked.

It won’t make the defenders fight, though. If they’d rather run, that’s on them. Forcing them to fight is not a viable answer.

Like you said, hollow victories are probably the culprit. If there’s no reason to play other than fights, then anyone who plays at a time when populations are not very even is unlikely to have a good experience.

With Arrow Carts skill 3 and 4 – your stealth is gone, you are crippled, and then you are dead.

Remove arrow carts and Shield Gens along with all the Tactivators and the WvW population will salute you.

A Healthy WvW Meta-Game

in WvW

Posted by: joneirikb.7506

joneirikb.7506

Good read, thanks.

Like most of your points. But I’m a bit iffy that a siege disabler (not a class skill) has to be the solution to one style. Would prefer to look at ways to make player skills and class skills the ways to fight.

Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
“Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth.”
“The objective is to win. The goal is to have fun.”

A Healthy WvW Meta-Game

in WvW

Posted by: Wanderer.3248

Wanderer.3248

You say you want a variety of strategies in WvW, but then you try and argue that YB strategy is somehow invalid.

Most of your ideas are slanted towards rapidly capping objectives and negating defense.

That won’t break up the Zerg. It’ll just lead to karma training.

A Healthy WvW Meta-Game

in WvW

Posted by: Sviel.7493

Sviel.7493

You say you want a variety of strategies in WvW, but then you try and argue that YB strategy is somehow invalid.

Most of your ideas are slanted towards rapidly capping objectives and negating defense.

That won’t break up the Zerg. It’ll just lead to karma training.

I’m not sure if that was for me, but if it was, can you elaborate?

I was hesitant to call the strategy invalid—in fact, rather than nerfing it, I advocated for trying out existing responses and perhaps tweaking those. As to the rest, my goal is exactly the opposite. I want to slow down capping of defended objectives but not empty objectives. I want to do this by letting defense have a potential response to enemy siege.

joneirikb

Good read, thanks.

Like most of your points. But I’m a bit iffy that a siege disabler (not a class skill) has to be the solution to one style. Would prefer to look at ways to make player skills and class skills the ways to fight.

I’m also a bit iffy on it, but I can’t think of a way around it save for making ACs super fragile and thus vulnerable to any attack. I’m open to ideas, of course.

(edited by Sviel.7493)

A Healthy WvW Meta-Game

in WvW

Posted by: Rocketmist.5436

Rocketmist.5436

Arrow carts simply do too much damage to players, everyone knows this is true. Defending should be about trying to counter the enemy siege placement, but killing them in 3 seconds with sup acs.

More problematic in my opinion is the inner smc 2 door shield gen + door treb + multiple 3rd floor sup acs defense. 4-5 people can defend INSANELY well against a massive group, 100% countering tons of golems, rams, catas and almost whatever else is used. They should add walls to inner smc now that shield gens and un-pvdable gates are a thing.

[TL] Guild Leader, Sea of Sorrows, SoS Council

A Healthy WvW Meta-Game

in WvW

Posted by: Dusty Moon.4382

Dusty Moon.4382

Arrow carts simply do too much damage to players, everyone knows this is true. Defending should be about trying to counter the enemy siege placement, but killing them in 3 seconds with sup acs.

More problematic in my opinion is the inner smc 2 door shield gen + door treb + multiple 3rd floor sup acs defense. 4-5 people can defend INSANELY well against a massive group, 100% countering tons of golems, rams, catas and almost whatever else is used. They should add walls to inner smc now that shield gens and un-pvdable gates are a thing.

True – 3rd floor arrow carts should NOT be able to hit outside siege but they do. Arrow carts are simply broken and need to be removed. Same with Shield Gens. The game was fine before HoT, now it is just ridiculous.

A Healthy WvW Meta-Game

in WvW

Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

What makes a person type essays like these on the forums?

A genuine passion for the game itself and what once was in attempts to improve upon it.

A Healthy WvW Meta-Game

in WvW

Posted by: Aeolus.3615

Aeolus.3615

Arrow carts simply do too much damage to players, everyone knows this is true. Defending should be about trying to counter the enemy siege placement, but killing them in 3 seconds with sup acs.

More problematic in my opinion is the inner smc 2 door shield gen + door treb + multiple 3rd floor sup acs defense. 4-5 people can defend INSANELY well against a massive group, 100% countering tons of golems, rams, catas and almost whatever else is used. They should add walls to inner smc now that shield gens and un-pvdable gates are a thing.

True – 3rd floor arrow carts should NOT be able to hit outside siege but they do. Arrow carts are simply broken and need to be removed. Same with Shield Gens. The game was fine before HoT, now it is just ridiculous.

So is aoe and most range skills, people need to be clever not ending in AC spam, theres siege with longer range, would be better to tone down players damage and then see what is needed to work on siege.
Stack a good “number” of eoe peeps near wall and u can clear siege easilly, and even wipe players at siege.
Castle design are so bad that is not difficult to counter AC’s.

Ac’s need to be strong to be in pair with other damage sources….so other things need to be reworked first.

1st April joke, when gw2 receives a “balance” update.

(edited by Aeolus.3615)

A Healthy WvW Meta-Game

in WvW

Posted by: Dusty Moon.4382

Dusty Moon.4382

Arrow carts simply do too much damage to players, everyone knows this is true. Defending should be about trying to counter the enemy siege placement, but killing them in 3 seconds with sup acs.

More problematic in my opinion is the inner smc 2 door shield gen + door treb + multiple 3rd floor sup acs defense. 4-5 people can defend INSANELY well against a massive group, 100% countering tons of golems, rams, catas and almost whatever else is used. They should add walls to inner smc now that shield gens and un-pvdable gates are a thing.

True – 3rd floor arrow carts should NOT be able to hit outside siege but they do. Arrow carts are simply broken and need to be removed. Same with Shield Gens. The game was fine before HoT, now it is just ridiculous.

So is aoe and most range skills, people need to be clever not ending in AC spam, theres siege with longer range, would be better to tone down players damage and then see what is needed to work on siege.
Stack a good “number” of eoe peeps near wall and u can clear siege easilly, and even wipe players at siege.
Castle design are so bad that is not difficult to counter AC’s.

Ac’s need to be strong to be in pair with other damage sources….so other things need to be reworked first.

AC’s are too strong NOW. Also defenders can place AC’s where they can’t be hit by AoE and don’t even see over the walls to hit. That is ridiculous.

It used to be that it was a 50/50 chance that one could lose a gari (on ABL’s) before HoT but, they are EPIC battles. Now defenders have they upper hand with all the HoT crap added (chilling Fog, Emergency WP, etc.). This is one reason why PPT during low population times is big right now.

(edited by Dusty Moon.4382)

A Healthy WvW Meta-Game

in WvW

Posted by: Chaba.5410

Chaba.5410

What makes a person type essays like these on the forums?

A genuine passion for the game itself and what once was in attempts to improve upon it.

The only time anyone ever made a successful attempt to “improve upon” WvW was when RG starting doing GvGs and everyone followed suit.

Chaba Tangnu
Founding member of [NERF] Fort Engineer and driver for [TLC] The Legion of Charrs
RIP [SIC] Strident Iconoclast

A Healthy WvW Meta-Game

in WvW

Posted by: Aeolus.3615

Aeolus.3615

Arrow carts simply do too much damage to players, everyone knows this is true. Defending should be about trying to counter the enemy siege placement, but killing them in 3 seconds with sup acs.

More problematic in my opinion is the inner smc 2 door shield gen + door treb + multiple 3rd floor sup acs defense. 4-5 people can defend INSANELY well against a massive group, 100% countering tons of golems, rams, catas and almost whatever else is used. They should add walls to inner smc now that shield gens and un-pvdable gates are a thing.

True – 3rd floor arrow carts should NOT be able to hit outside siege but they do. Arrow carts are simply broken and need to be removed. Same with Shield Gens. The game was fine before HoT, now it is just ridiculous.

So is aoe and most range skills, people need to be clever not ending in AC spam, theres siege with longer range, would be better to tone down players damage and then see what is needed to work on siege.
Stack a good “number” of eoe peeps near wall and u can clear siege easilly, and even wipe players at siege.
Castle design are so bad that is not difficult to counter AC’s.

Ac’s need to be strong to be in pair with other damage sources….so other things need to be reworked first.

AC’s are too strong NOW. Also defenders can place AC’s where they can’t be hit by AoE and don’t even see over the walls to hit. That is ridiculous.

It used to be that it was a 50/50 chance that one could lose a gari (on ABL’s) before HoT but, they are EPIC battles. Now defenders have they upper hand with all the HoT crap added (chilling Fog, Emergency WP, etc.). This is one reason why PPT during low population times is big right now.

SO ac’s on wall now not be hitted from AOE ? good that has been fixed because with that was extremelly easy to get the wall cleared and a few bags, if u dont have line of sight should not be hitting there, it is characters line of sight and not player camera/view line of sight.

About the Superior AC damage… it needs to be strong, while other things in game are to strong to, the Toxic volley it is the only good counter to full stacked group with alot of water fields while on proxy catting.

IT is very effective but… and i do agree with you that AC’s are strong, and dont get me wrong, but in the state that the game is and the actual space ship meta sAC’s need to be this srtong.

1st April joke, when gw2 receives a “balance” update.

(edited by Aeolus.3615)

A Healthy WvW Meta-Game

in WvW

Posted by: Chaba.5410

Chaba.5410

Honestly, I don’t understand what is meant by meta-game for WvW here. There is only one meta for WvW: exploitation of population and coverage. Get more people in another server’s weak timezone and take all their stuff and make them quit. Get more people for your own weak timezones. Try to avoid stacking your strongest timezones to avoid boredom.

And that meta won’t be changed until Anet changes it.

Chaba Tangnu
Founding member of [NERF] Fort Engineer and driver for [TLC] The Legion of Charrs
RIP [SIC] Strident Iconoclast

A Healthy WvW Meta-Game

in WvW

Posted by: gennyt.3428

gennyt.3428

Arrow carts simply do too much damage to players, everyone knows this is true. Defending should be about trying to counter the enemy siege placement, but killing them in 3 seconds with sup acs.

More problematic in my opinion is the inner smc 2 door shield gen + door treb + multiple 3rd floor sup acs defense. 4-5 people can defend INSANELY well against a massive group, 100% countering tons of golems, rams, catas and almost whatever else is used. They should add walls to inner smc now that shield gens and un-pvdable gates are a thing.

True – 3rd floor arrow carts should NOT be able to hit outside siege but they do. Arrow carts are simply broken and need to be removed. Same with Shield Gens. The game was fine before HoT, now it is just ridiculous.

So is aoe and most range skills, people need to be clever not ending in AC spam, theres siege with longer range, would be better to tone down players damage and then see what is needed to work on siege.
Stack a good “number” of eoe peeps near wall and u can clear siege easilly, and even wipe players at siege.
Castle design are so bad that is not difficult to counter AC’s.

Ac’s need to be strong to be in pair with other damage sources….so other things need to be reworked first.

AC’s are too strong NOW. Also defenders can place AC’s where they can’t be hit by AoE and don’t even see over the walls to hit. That is ridiculous.

It used to be that it was a 50/50 chance that one could lose a gari (on ABL’s) before HoT but, they are EPIC battles. Now defenders have they upper hand with all the HoT crap added (chilling Fog, Emergency WP, etc.). This is one reason why PPT during low population times is big right now.

SO ac’s on wall now not be hitted from AOE ? good that has been fixed because with that was extremelly easy to get the wall cleared, if u dont have line of sightshould not be hitting there characters line of sight and not player camera/view line of view.

About the Superior AC damage… it needs to be strong, while other things in game are to strong to.

Most seige on walls can get hit by player AoEs even if there are some awkward spots where they can’t. Sup ACs are overtuned for how common they are. Throw in other seige weapons and some of these psychotic guild upgrades (which is a common occurrence now) and defense becomes too easy.

Whispers with meat.

A Healthy WvW Meta-Game

in WvW

Posted by: Aeolus.3615

Aeolus.3615

Arrow carts simply do too much damage to players, everyone knows this is true. Defending should be about trying to counter the enemy siege placement, but killing them in 3 seconds with sup acs.

More problematic in my opinion is the inner smc 2 door shield gen + door treb + multiple 3rd floor sup acs defense. 4-5 people can defend INSANELY well against a massive group, 100% countering tons of golems, rams, catas and almost whatever else is used. They should add walls to inner smc now that shield gens and un-pvdable gates are a thing.

True – 3rd floor arrow carts should NOT be able to hit outside siege but they do. Arrow carts are simply broken and need to be removed. Same with Shield Gens. The game was fine before HoT, now it is just ridiculous.

So is aoe and most range skills, people need to be clever not ending in AC spam, theres siege with longer range, would be better to tone down players damage and then see what is needed to work on siege.
Stack a good “number” of eoe peeps near wall and u can clear siege easilly, and even wipe players at siege.
Castle design are so bad that is not difficult to counter AC’s.

Ac’s need to be strong to be in pair with other damage sources….so other things need to be reworked first.

AC’s are too strong NOW. Also defenders can place AC’s where they can’t be hit by AoE and don’t even see over the walls to hit. That is ridiculous.

It used to be that it was a 50/50 chance that one could lose a gari (on ABL’s) before HoT but, they are EPIC battles. Now defenders have they upper hand with all the HoT crap added (chilling Fog, Emergency WP, etc.). This is one reason why PPT during low population times is big right now.

SO ac’s on wall now not be hitted from AOE ? good that has been fixed because with that was extremelly easy to get the wall cleared, if u dont have line of sightshould not be hitting there characters line of sight and not player camera/view line of view.

About the Superior AC damage… it needs to be strong, while other things in game are to strong to.

Most seige on walls can get hit by player AoEs even if there are some awkward spots where they can’t. Sup ACs are overtuned for how common they are. Throw in other seige weapons and some of these psychotic guild upgrades (which is a common occurrence now) and defense becomes too easy.

Ah ok tks, not fixed then, i never used those lame guilds gimmick, i changed mmo at that time.
So instead of give a diferent effect/mechanic, they overtuned it? cause last time i used one with toxic voley on stacked group that was the only skill that was damaging the stacked group with several proxy catas, there was also other siege hitting them, but the number of water fields was really great, and they managed to get the wall down fast, and they melteld with aoe, the back siege on that wall spot.

1st April joke, when gw2 receives a “balance” update.

(edited by Aeolus.3615)

A Healthy WvW Meta-Game

in WvW

Posted by: STIHL.2489

STIHL.2489

CONCLUSION

The ideal meta for WvW should be multi-dimensional. That means that any one strategy should have its limits. Siege bunkering should be weak to a well-placed disabler. Blobs should not be able to bypass their weakness (single-point sieges) and skip to their strength (running things over). A skilled WvW assault group should be good at breaking up to quickly crack a structure and/or drain it of supply and at fighting together once the walls are down. A skilled WvW defense group should excel in countering siege, draining enemy players of supply and scouting assaults before damage is done. Additionally, population imbalance should be manageable on at least a temporary basis: If two servers have diametrically opposed high population times, the winner should be the one that attacks and defends the best at the appropriate times—not necessarily the one that karma trains hardest when it has the advantage. If a server has more low-pop times than high-pop, they should be able to compete by defending better than their opponents so long as they can also go on offense when needed. A server that has more high-pop times should not automatically win unless they do their jobs well.

Mobile Siege would also be a viable option, like the Scorpions used in EotM, and I believe there is some kind of bike thing.

I think adding in more “Mobile” siege devices would really add to the game as well.

The Charr Tanks and Bikes, using Dolyaks as Battering rams, more golem like Mobile Siege.

But I get what you’re saying about mobility, but maybe if we did not need to have siege stationary, that would change the dynamic of the game as well.

There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty

A Healthy WvW Meta-Game

in WvW

Posted by: Sviel.7493

Sviel.7493

Honestly, I don’t understand what is meant by meta-game for WvW here. There is only one meta for WvW: exploitation of population and coverage. Get more people in another server’s weak timezone and take all their stuff and make them quit. Get more people for your own weak timezones. Try to avoid stacking your strongest timezones to avoid boredom.

And that meta won’t be changed until Anet changes it.

That’s largely the meta that I touch on. If you check out http://coveragewars2.com/timezone/?tab=graph you’ll see that servers tend to trade off high population times. That is, when one server’s presence starts growing, the other tends to drop. It is most prevalent among the Blue and Green servers…Red is usually a non-factor. I’ve included a quickly marked up population chart to illustrate these inflection points.

I believe this is directly the result of the futility of trying to play WvW against a larger force. As you say, it’s about bringing the most people to the fight—win that battle and there’s no need to worry about player skill. The issue was made worse by the stab changes since fights became even more of a numbers game, though I don’t advocate for a flat repeal there. It needs to change, but I don’t have the info to get too specific about that here.

At any rate, one of the points I make here is that WvW needs to have viable strategies for the server that doesn’t have the most people. That is how I’m asking Anet to change the meta. I’ve identified some of the aggravating factors but, on the whole, I wanted to lay out the idea and perhaps refine it through discussion.

Attachments:

A Healthy WvW Meta-Game

in WvW

Posted by: Chaba.5410

Chaba.5410

At any rate, one of the points I make here is that WvW needs to have viable strategies for the server that doesn’t have the most people. That is how I’m asking Anet to change the meta. I’ve identified some of the aggravating factors but, on the whole, I wanted to lay out the idea and perhaps refine it through discussion.

I don’t believe any attempts to provide buffs to the server that doesn’t have the people will make things better. In fact I think it is yet another bad idea. History has shown it to make things worse. Any time Anet has buffed up defense, offense has to increase numbers and they do, from the arrow cart dmg increase to nerfing stability to ni-impenetrable fortifications replete with airship defense.

Chaba Tangnu
Founding member of [NERF] Fort Engineer and driver for [TLC] The Legion of Charrs
RIP [SIC] Strident Iconoclast

A Healthy WvW Meta-Game

in WvW

Posted by: Sviel.7493

Sviel.7493

I don’t believe any attempts to provide buffs to the server that doesn’t have the people will make things better. In fact I think it is yet another bad idea. History has shown it to make things worse. Any time Anet has buffed up defense, offense has to increase numbers and they do, from the arrow cart dmg increase to nerfing stability to ni-impenetrable fortifications replete with airship defense.

I didn’t ask for any buffs. For the record, I’m not a fan of the Airship defense either and I’ve heard that SMC inner has become way too difficult to take with the HoT changes. I also think that superior ACs do more damage to players than is necessary, though I blame the buffs from WvW ranks more than anything.

The only change I’m asking for is that there is always interaction between defense and offense. That means no laughably hard to bring down walls, no infinite methods of holing up in a structure without supply and no positions from which the structure can be sieged without fear of counter-siege.

A Healthy WvW Meta-Game

in WvW

Posted by: joneirikb.7506

joneirikb.7506

@Chaba: This is how I read the topic

Basically, that every problem have 2-3 different solutions, and that at least 1 of them is not "bring more people". Giving more options (as in tactics and strategies, ways to accomplish something) in WvW.

As opposed to right now where the meta is exactly as Chaba says: Numbers + Coverage - Boredom = Win

Example:

So right now the best way to take a Tower that is defended by a small number, is proxy cata with larger numbers. Wipe the walls with aoe’s, crack down the wall and run in and kill any players you find (that hasn’t run of yet) and zerg the lord.

If you got similar numbers, you can treb from far off, with lots of patience, which most people doesn’t have. And try to force the defenders to come outside to kill your treb (rarely happens). If not you spend a long time taking down the wall, and go in to either find the tower abandoned (run away) or making valiant last stand with lord. But most find this boring and tedious, and it is much more efficient for both attackers and defenders to just back-cap things instead.

I don’t see people use rams much any longer, the reinforced doors are as hard to crack as the walls with catas, and that tactivator door upgrade is frequent, and the guards spawn much faster (annoying), and it is just as easy to slap down a bunch of catas anyways.

It is about making certain that there isn’t *1* best way to do things, and that each thing has a counter (that is easily enough available), and making different ways of accomplishing things rewarding enough.

(Best I can explain it right now, need sleep)

Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
“Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth.”
“The objective is to win. The goal is to have fun.”

A Healthy WvW Meta-Game

in WvW

Posted by: Sviel.7493

Sviel.7493

That’s a pretty good explanation, though I’d use a cata outside of AC range before resorting to trebs. I think trebs are only good to apply extra pressure—alone, they’re too slow.

(edited by Sviel.7493)