Guild Wars 2

I have seen many comments in recent threads about people being pugs and I find myself getting irritated. Been playing for about 2 1/2 years-mainly in WVW. I have joined guilds but have quit for different reasons i.e. Too much time on Deserted BL ( which puts me to sleep), GVG-I like open field fights but GVG IMHO doesn’t help the status of the server, & forced pve which isn’t really my thing. Some guilds I might join are different time zones which my being a member would not really aid the guild. I do use TS when running with a tag and I don’t squirrel. Being displaced when my original server fell apart has led me to wander to various servers, and there is nothing new under the sun except numbers. Many lower servers have very good players-just not enough of them.
PUGS or militia, as I prefer to call them, do jobs that others do not for the most part-refreshing siege, placing siege, scouting, repairing, etc. I love a good open field fight, but when one is looked upon as a PUG, people tend to overlook your contribution. Not that I am that great a player, but have outlasted others in fights despite the fact that my main is a light armor class. I hear comments like-don’t repair-the PUGS will do it. Yes, it is GUILD WARS, but if I am not comfortable in a guild, I will run alone. I am not afraid to die-been there; done that a lot. Methinks all PUGS feel the same. Downside is that PUGS can’t claim structures.
My summary: Don’t underestimate anyone on your server. Everybody contributes-maybe in different ways, but it all counts. Everyone doesn’t play by your rules, but are there for the same purpose-to help the server. PUGS tend to run more than guilds from what I have experienced. Don’t downplay their value. Agree or not-I am stating my opinion from a PUG’s point of view. Rant over now. People can post whatever-it’s not going to change my opinion. And even PUGS are allowed opinions

The definition of PUG has changed quite a bit from the beginning. Its taken on a more negative connotation over time.

Blockhead Magee.3092:

The definition of PUG has changed quite a bit from the beginning. Its taken on a more negative connotation over time.

I always get irritated myself when some moron from a popular girls guild rips on pugs in map chat. Or if a person says in map chat “first time here, what can I do to help” only to met with some smart a comment.

Pugs make a server successful and provide action for those "so called’ zerg busting guilds from the past to the present. Most of those guilds and players are gone from the game and I’ve traveled to quite a number of servers, same elitist attitude across the board for gvg guilds. Hence as a roamer, I loved finding one 1v1 and getting lovely rage whispers for picking them off “no I won’t let you make it to your guild so you can gvg”

The OP is dead on, respect everyone on your server. One day you might just be the new Anvil Rock.

While I agree with all of it, I think you were especially head on when you noted that guild members often don’t do tasks that pugs attend to. That’s likely a huge part of the problem—if being in a guild is solely about running a certain build and knowing how to fight, many important tasks get left by the wayside.

That’s not to say that no one should do that or that every guild needs to value other kinds of contribution, but it is dangerous to be too one-dimensional.

And i tell you dont generalize guilds and dont look down on them as they spend hours on builds and their teamwork. Cant blame them if they want to fight those 2h a night their playing together, since any other time of the day they are also pugs following a pug commander, roaming,…

PUG means Pick Up Group which is basically any group of people playing together that don’t know each other. Being a PUG is neither good nor bad but generally speaking groups on comms and groups that have builds that purposefully synergize are going to play together at a higher level.

IMO nothing wrong with being a PUG and they are the life’s blood of most servers.

I think there are many generalizations, but from my own experience there are certainly reasons why people can get very frustrated— it’s where they toss their frustration on. When things go south, fingers get pointed, and oftentimes the echo chamber is going to find someone outside of the circle to blame. When your attack fails because 12 pugs sit around with 96 supply and nothing builds. When people run up to the lord’s room to run up and tag the lord, endangering the entire group, it’s very hard to really have sympathy if say, I suggest to throw them to the wolves.

And to be honest, if you’re being dead weight, then you have to reconsider why you are here. However, it’s not just the pugs. It’s also bad habits and other things from even so called veteran hardcore players.

But unfortunately, that leaves collateral damage. Once, I got angry at someone for placing a trebuchet against a wall, because I thought we were being trolled without thinking that they didn’t know any better within even considering the possibility that they could just be new.

To add on to matters, the overall state of WvW has caused increased stress to anyone that still takes it seriously for whatever reason, and thus the patience gets lower and lower to the point where people can only turn to people they trust.

Consider what a pugmander might have to deal with:

• People not cooperating with tag, not on coms.
• Backseat Driving, especially by zerglings
• People not knowing what to do, and then getting upset when things go wrong
• People fairweathering/are only here for the ride
• Terrible info/misleading scouting. “inc” for lone enemies, etc.
• In addition to the above:
  “X is under attack”
  “How many, and who?
  /silence for 10 minutes
  “HURRY UP CAP CIRCLE IS UP”
  /10 seconds later
  “#$%$#^$! go karma train and whatever!”
• Or, redirecting a zerg to stop 1 person from taking a camp.
• People demanding you tag despite the fact you might want to take the break. Don’t do it? The map becomes unqueued.

On our server, there’s a not so unsubstantiated sentiment that pugs have been spoiled rotten by some very good commanders and simply won’t learn how to fend for themselves. In any case, it’s quite a disaster on reset night now due to this degradation of the situation with pugs and more organized folks. Though to be fair, this may apply to the game in general, as zerg content ensues that the skill required to function in this game is very low and one can hide behind a zerg and pretend to be good. Then you remember people complaining about HoT maps….

Consider what a Guild Group might have to deal with:

• Getting ordered around just because you are on the map when you may have your own agenda.
• People that think you’re violating their game mode.
• Random people following you, and imposing whatever.
• Being blamed or targeted when you decide to take it easy.
• On my server… wait, never mind.

Now, on the other hand, consider what a pug might have to deal with,

• Being told to get off siege if they don’t have the right mastery, so they learn to never do it if so…. and then comes the time when nobody uses the siege at all. Cue rage.
• /insert bashing because of class.
• Being called out for a mistake in a rude fashion, often by people that really aren’t that much better. Especially juicy when I note them having to be ress’d 5 times every fight.
• Commanders thinking you are psychic and then berating you when yes, your backline is CC’d and you knowingly jumped in there alone. Not a problem for cool bros like me that pop renewed focus and then talk about how I outlast the entire zerg… wait whoops.
• Commanders not realizing you’re omnipotent. So, mesmers only got 3 utility slots and yes that veil has a really long cooldown. Also, yes it’s possible for water to be on cooldown.
• Being called a PvE’r. Is like people are too insecure they’re not considered epshots that they have to find pve’rs to belittle.
• On the off chance someone wants to get better, they get belittled and mocked if they ask a “stupid question”
• On my server, pugs have the extra challenge of being demanded to be on coms only to find out that either the info isn’t given or the channels are empty anyways.

In any case, it’s very easy to get narcissistic and ignore the people that have helped you without you knowing it. Yea, it’s easy to mock that dude refreshing siege and sitting on that cannon for 5 hours straight, but maybe without ‘em you’d be in tier tumbleweed by now. In the end, people just need to realize everyone has their own agenda and dreams, and work accordingly— at the very least tolerate people that aren’t in your echo chamber.

@ ArchonWing.9480

I would like to pre-order one of your books of flowery WvW poetry.

It’s coming with the WvW overhaul.

Soon™.

ArchonWing.9480:

To add on to matters, the overall state of WvW has caused increased stress to anyone that still takes it seriously for whatever reason, and thus the patience gets lower and lower to the point where people can only turn to people they trust.

As a scout, defender and solo roamer, it’s gotten to the point that the rule #1 is that if I am in a 2v2 and I don’t know my ally, it’s really a 1v2.

Yesterday, I hid inside an enemy Hills/Air keep when its wall was down, and after things calmed down, I quietly built two catas at inner wall by portaling sups from a nearby camp. Once done, I noticed my server still had no objectives owned on the map, so I asked in map chat if there were any of us on the map. I got one whisper as reply. Since I did not recognize the name, instead of asking them to come to where I could portal them in I just proceeded to cata the wall solo and kill the lord myself, luckily uninterrupted. I’d rather risk it solo than with someone I did not know and, therefore, trust. It’s easier to solo the parrot without having to stop to rally someone every 30 seconds.

This is not because I am distrusting in nature but because generally speaking the average random tag mascot is incapable of even the most basic and menial tasks. Their level of involvement ends at following the tag and standing around not building anything or keeping a lookout, simply waiting for the tag to do everything while they wait for the champ box.

It has simply become too difficult to differentiate between those PUGs who don’t do what needs to be done because they are inexperienced and in need of guidance, and those who simply cannot be bothered to make an effort.

better change pug to militia before you get bombed by pc’s.
theyre ruthless man.

rhejeckt.5791:

Downside is that PUGS can’t claim structures.

Not since HoT anyway.

I miss random PUGS claiming camps with +5 supplies so the bigger guilds could claim keeps/structures to apply fort bonuses. #teamwork.

I tend to avoid pugging with guilds that have a closed off feel. It doesn’t feel welcoming and it doesn’t feel fun. The attitude of some WvW vets towards pugs are also pretty disgusting. Especially from those so-called “fight” guilds.

Reverence.6915:

I tend to avoid pugging with guilds that have a closed off feel. It doesn’t feel welcoming and it doesn’t feel fun. The attitude of some WvW vets towards pugs are also pretty disgusting. Especially from those so-called “fight” guilds.

especially when you join ts with them because they happen to be on the way to your next camp, etc. and you hear them complain that a pug joined yet they die and you still live while they continue raging about running their masterfully thought out comp that hasn’t changed much since stab was changed

Well, there’s always the rallybot fear. Although, that’s largely been downplayed lately.

People have forgotten patience and the benefit of teaching. Community building.

If you wipe once, it’s not the end of the world. Take two minutes to talk in /say on how to go at it a second time. Communicate.

Those fight guilds will love you if you direct their traffic … And you gain a rep for being reliable.

Reverence.6915:

I tend to avoid pugging with guilds that have a closed off feel. It doesn’t feel welcoming and it doesn’t feel fun. The attitude of some WvW vets towards pugs are also pretty disgusting. Especially from those so-called “fight” guilds.

Hearing in TS “let the pugs die to cover our retreat” from a leet guild really torqued me off. The ego with a segment of the WvW population can really put people off.

bloodletting wolf.2837:

Reverence.6915:

I tend to avoid pugging with guilds that have a closed off feel. It doesn’t feel welcoming and it doesn’t feel fun. The attitude of some WvW vets towards pugs are also pretty disgusting. Especially from those so-called “fight” guilds.

Hearing in TS “let the pugs die to cover our retreat” from a leet guild really torqued me off. The ego with a segment of the WvW population can really put people off.

I know it’s fashionable to say this about fight guilds but the inconsideration and entitlement goes both ways. With “pugs” it just manifests a bit differently.

gennyt.3428:

bloodletting wolf.2837:

Reverence.6915:

I tend to avoid pugging with guilds that have a closed off feel. It doesn’t feel welcoming and it doesn’t feel fun. The attitude of some WvW vets towards pugs are also pretty disgusting. Especially from those so-called “fight” guilds.

Hearing in TS “let the pugs die to cover our retreat” from a leet guild really torqued me off. The ego with a segment of the WvW population can really put people off.

I know it’s fashionable to say this about fight guilds but the inconsideration and entitlement goes both ways. With “pugs” it just manifests a bit differently.

Where did I say it was a fight guild (it wasn’t)? I just didn’t think that it was appropriate to not just say “were moving out”. After a few of those comments I just refused to follow them or go to their TS channel. I do agree a bit on it going both ways but if a large guild does something like this it can cause a rift between players or needless drama.

I pugmanded for years…Lead a wvw guild…lead a gvg guild. I say that I love pugs and I hate pugs. Commanding I will thank scouts, and despite having large groups in TS I’ll throw a few words in say chat if I see the future. It does go both ways. I wont ever apologize for not typemanding to the pugs though. The game has changed. Once upon a time pugmanding was typemanding and that was pretty common. Then guilds and groups started using comms all the time. Then guilds became the hard centers of pug zergs and the age of the typemander has mostly come to an end. As a commander from day one we simply had to keep pace, stay sharp and relevant lest we lose the ability to be effective at what makes a lot of fun. So…its really been an evolution and in most cases that is being in TS and being a well-oiled machine. Most good commanders will modify their style based on what the situation calls for. If I have 20 ppl in TS and there is another tag on map who is pugmanding he’s going to be minding the map and Ill primarily be fighting. The reverse also happens. Commanders should be able to switch as needed. Unfortunately, there are fewer and fewer willing to typemand or pugmand these days. The benefit of having a trained guild is obvious but you can’t run them 24/7. Pugmanding you can do 24/7 and as a result I would say its the pug tags and the loveable pugs that follow them that make up the real back-bone of a server. A guild’s contribution only lasts as long as the raid but pugs contribute 24/7.

So why is the non-guilded pugmander dieing out on a lot of servers? Mostly I have found that pugs would rather follow organized guild groups than a pugmander. So you can imagine how a pugmander might feel betrayed.

So who’s to blame for the state of pugs? Their image as unloyal, untrustworthy, and unskilled? That’s all rather complicated I think and as ArchonWing pointed out there are plenty of ways to look at it.

Guild commanders will always sacrifice pugs for their guildies. Pugs will sacrifice the zerg for bags and Pugmanders will sacrifice whats needed to succeed.

@PabbyGaul

I find that to be a accurate assessment of what’s going on for the most part.

bloodletting wolf.2837:

Reverence.6915:

I tend to avoid pugging with guilds that have a closed off feel. It doesn’t feel welcoming and it doesn’t feel fun. The attitude of some WvW vets towards pugs are also pretty disgusting. Especially from those so-called “fight” guilds.

Hearing in TS “let the pugs die to cover our retreat” from a leet guild really torqued me off. The ego with a segment of the WvW population can really put people off.

This attitude that guild groups just see randoms as cannon fodder is hilarious. Most drivers I knew took a bit of pride in keeping people alive. If you were 4 of 25 not in ts then yeah, the non ts folk become bottom of the chain when kittens get heavy.

bloodletting wolf.2837:

gennyt.3428:

bloodletting wolf.2837:

Reverence.6915:

I tend to avoid pugging with guilds that have a closed off feel. It doesn’t feel welcoming and it doesn’t feel fun. The attitude of some WvW vets towards pugs are also pretty disgusting. Especially from those so-called “fight” guilds.

Hearing in TS “let the pugs die to cover our retreat” from a leet guild really torqued me off. The ego with a segment of the WvW population can really put people off.

I know it’s fashionable to say this about fight guilds but the inconsideration and entitlement goes both ways. With “pugs” it just manifests a bit differently.

Where did I say it was a fight guild (it wasn’t)? I just didn’t think that it was appropriate to not just say “were moving out”. After a few of those comments I just refused to follow them or go to their TS channel. I do agree a bit on it going both ways but if a large guild does something like this it can cause a rift between players or needless drama.

Given the conversation quoted, I made the assumption. But I agree, making the random people joining an open raid feel like useless dirt isn’t necessary or even useful. Ah the magic of in-group/out-group.

no other pugs can ever shatter the spirit of the pugs of madness
https://youtu.be/G0Ds9DCnGNE