Guild Wars 2

Maybe some of you who are into Counterstrike know that the recent patch wasn’t very welcomed at the community. Now five days later we got these patchnotes.

Recovery Time

15 Dec 2015 -

We made some adjustments to rifles recently, and those changes have been causing a lot of pain in the CS:GO community. The pain was the result of a few mistakes we made, and while we usually prefer to avoid disrupting conversations happening in the community, we wanted to talk about some of the thinking that led to the recent changes as well as our plan for moving forward.
Why change rifles at all?

In CS:GO, spraying is generally the most popular way of firing a rifle. We can see this pretty clearly in the rifle data that we collect internally, and it’s something we hear the community discussing frequently.

[…]

Unfortunately, our implementation failed in a few ways.

[…]

As it turns out, the adjustments didn’t really achieve the goal either
[…]

It’s difficult to measure the impact on gameplay when too much changes at once. The Winter Update came with some really huge changes to gameplay, including a new weapon, an adjustment to pistols, and the rifle change. Since we likely changed too much too quickly, in today’s update we’re rolling back both the rifle and pistol adjustments to their pre-Winter Update state.

We failed to anticipate the reaction of the community to changes in such heavy-use weapons, and we clearly need to re-evaluate our process for making and communicating about changes in that space.

We’re constantly reading community feedback and while we don’t often respond directly, understanding the community is one of the most important parts of working on CS:GO. Mistakes happen, but when they do, we’re committed to making sure they get fixed.

Happy Holidays,
The CS:GO Team

What do I want to say with this?
This is an example of what I’d like to read from ANet side. We all love this gamemode, and we appreciate your work for it.
But please listen to your community. Valve saw that the community heavily disliked the partially gamebreaking changes and therefore took them back to take a better look on them – think about doing the same.
Their measured data showed that the updates didn’t bring the desired results, and looking at the current state of WvW your data should be pretty much the same unless you really want to kill WvW.

Just admit your mistakes. Nobody is perfect on the first attempt and we are no monsters. You’ve tried something – and it failed. But together with your community you can make it work. Just stop doing everything on your own. Too much change at once can hardly be controlled and creates much more bad mood on both sides. Patching 10 things in a period of 10 months is much worse than releasing 1 thing every 1 month, because you have to work on 10 things at a time, evaluate the impact of all 10 on each other and try to figure it out while the game is broken for the entire time without even knowing if the “fix” will even work for everything. If you release patches piece by piece it’s much easier to control and balance each single update.

So please; it’s not even about the maps, it’s about all the new mechanics. And as you can read in the dozens of threads in this forum and on reddit it’s a mixture of many many small things, things that need to be looked at seperately instead of mixing everything together.
I don’t say that you need to bring back the old maps. Just take the new ones and remove all the failed/broken mechanics, except the ones that are 100% appreciated like sentries and dolyaks, rework them internally, let us play with them piece by piece and slowly build up a great gamemode with our help. (I’m talking about things like the oasis event, the passive keep defense mechanisms, auto upgrades and things like these)

I tell you I am 99% certain that whatever the mysterious WvW overhaul will be – it is most likely just too much of an untested change, because it’s simply impossible to simulate all the different existing playstyles in your small WvW team. And I asure you it will once again be a huge kittenstorm in the forums because, even if you have good intentions, you are simply trying to accomplish something impossible.
And once this happens I’ll be here and say “I told you”. Not out of spitefulness, but out of sadness. Because after more than 3 years you are still not willing to learn from your mistakes.

Anyways…happy Holidays to the dev team (in case there is one hiding in the shadows)

I think you make some very valid points.

This x10000000

Not incorporating enough feedback.

Trying to do too much at once.

Not enough communication.

As much as I’d like to see this, it’s not their MO. You’ll find out when they think its time to talk about it and by then it’s too late to make changes. This is what we done enjoy it.
On a side note, I bought Black Ops 3 last night for Christmas, no gems for this game. It will be 2 years come January that I have and it will continue.

Entenkommando.5208:

So please; it’s not even about the maps, it’s about all the new mechanics. And as you can read in the dozens of threads in this forum and on reddit it’s a mixture of many many small things, things that need to be looked at seperately instead of mixing everything together.
I don’t say that you need to bring back the old maps. Just take the new ones and remove all the failed/broken mechanics, except the ones that are 100% appreciated like sentries and dolyaks, rework them internally, let us play with them piece by piece and slowly build up a great gamemode with our help.

This just ignores the substantial feedback that takes issue with the map itself – a large part of the problem IS the map, not just the mechanics. People have left lengthy criticisms of the map’s verticality, winding paths, and far too numerous choke points for a host of reasons. You can pretend it’s just inept mechanics holding the map back all you want, but I quit weeks ago – as did many others – and there’s zero chance of us logging back in until both the map itself and the mechanics are rethought/redesigned. ANet has a solid record of incompetence when it comes to WvW at this point; it’s going to take a lot more than an acknowledgement of poor design/implementation and a promise to do better.

MasterD.4790:

This x10000000

Not incorporating enough feedback.

Trying to do too much at once.

Not enough communication.

More like no communication. All other game modes you get some response from ANet, WvW? NONE.

xev.9476:

This just ignores the substantial feedback that takes issue with the map itself – a large part of the problem IS the map, not just the mechanics. People have left lengthy criticisms of the map’s verticality, winding paths, and far too numerous choke points for a host of reasons. You can pretend it’s just inept mechanics holding the map back all you want, but I quit weeks ago – as did many others – and there’s zero chance of us logging back in until both the map itself and the mechanics are rethought/redesigned. ANet has a solid record of incompetence when it comes to WvW at this point; it’s going to take a lot more than an acknowledgement of poor design/implementation and a promise to do better.

Well this is just my opinion. Realistically spoken there is close to zero chance they’ll just give us the old maps since it’s basically the biggest promise for hot in terms of WvW, and neither will they work on a remake for another 6 months.
And while I do wish the map was more open it’s definitely the last thing that I see as a problem. (I’d rather go for a useful balance patch)

You also have to think from the company’s perspective. They’ve been working on this map since 1-1.5 years and it cost them a couple hundred thousand dollars.
Just removing some mechanics to focus more on the pure WvW experience would make sense from an economical perspective while still providing us players a better experience.
The other option would be to rework the map, which takes some months and in which you can expect close to zero visible activity from the devs again. Is this what you want?

They stated they would rotate old maps in for a tournament / season? Can’t you just release a tournament ASAP? We get to play the old maps, you get more time to focus on whatever it is you are doing and save face for the time being.

Communication is all we want anet, a few words would go so far than just fixing little bits here and there / ignoring WvW in patches.

Entenkommando.5208:

You also have to think from the company’s perspective. They’ve been working on this map since 1-1.5 years and it cost them a couple hundred thousand dollars.

While I have no faith in ANet doing the right thing by deleting the new map for good, what you point out in this phrase is exactly the fallacy ANet has been prone as of late. Creating video games is a creative process and being creative always includes running into the wrong direction, often multiple times. It’s really hard to create a good PvP map and you’ll inevitably fall into some traps on the way to the best possible map.
It has happened before with other games, too, League of Legends being the most well known example with creating buzz for a big map with teleporters and what not years ago and ending up admitting that it never reached the point where they were satisfied with the gameplay, subsequently dropping the project.
ANet didn’t test the map. They announced a beta for it, but it was merely a sneak peak. In the end they were too proud of their beautiful map to pull the breaks when the testers stopped playing way before the beta tests were over and gave feedback that includes almost everything that has been criticized since the desert borderlands went live.

I’m aware of myself preaching to the choir, you’ve hit the nail right on the head with your initial post, Entenkommando, I just want to point out that even this business perspective is a fallacy from my point of view. In the end, ANets inability to communicate, it’s inability to listen to the community and the mentality of “just go with it, no matter what” is the difference between one of the most well known e-sports games getting the job done for more than ten years and GW2 losing a considerable chunk of its player base after three years.

Great post, op.

Entenkommando.5208:

xev.9476:

This just ignores the substantial feedback that takes issue with the map itself – a large part of the problem IS the map, not just the mechanics. People have left lengthy criticisms of the map’s verticality, winding paths, and far too numerous choke points for a host of reasons. You can pretend it’s just inept mechanics holding the map back all you want, but I quit weeks ago – as did many others – and there’s zero chance of us logging back in until both the map itself and the mechanics are rethought/redesigned. ANet has a solid record of incompetence when it comes to WvW at this point; it’s going to take a lot more than an acknowledgement of poor design/implementation and a promise to do better.

Well this is just my opinion. Realistically spoken there is close to zero chance they’ll just give us the old maps since it’s basically the biggest promise for hot in terms of WvW, and neither will they work on a remake for another 6 months.
And while I do wish the map was more open it’s definitely the last thing that I see as a problem. (I’d rather go for a useful balance patch)

You also have to think from the company’s perspective. They’ve been working on this map since 1-1.5 years and it cost them a couple hundred thousand dollars.
Just removing some mechanics to focus more on the pure WvW experience would make sense from an economical perspective while still providing us players a better experience.
The other option would be to rework the map, which takes some months and in which you can expect close to zero visible activity from the devs again. Is this what you want?

I don’t know what you’re talking about. I think there were a whole 2 people who were responsible for this new map. One who did all the environmental stuff (who actually built it), and one who did all the programming for the mechanics / npcs. I can’t remember their names. One is female, the other male. I played with the environmental artist a few times in TS. They seem like nice people, but they are not WvW players. I highly doubt they were working on this map for over a year. If they were, then it wasn’t full time.

The issue is anet does NOT commit the resources to WvW as they do to other parts of the game. HoT was releases with 4 pve maps that are huge with major, complex programming involved with all the events going on and lots of new monsters with new animations and mechanics.

Spurnshadow.3678:

I don’t know what you’re talking about. I think there were a whole 2 people who were responsible for this new map. One who did all the environmental stuff (who actually built it), and one who did all the programming for the mechanics / npcs. I can’t remember their names. One is female, the other male. I played with the environmental artist a few times in TS. They seem like nice people, but they are not WvW players. I highly doubt they were working on this map for over a year. If they were, then it wasn’t full time.

Well I don’t know a lot about the developement process in GW2 but you also have to think about that because it is very difficult to create a WvW map this is perhaps the 10th attempt of a fully structured map.
How I imagine it:
First you need to get a basic idea of the map, then you need to design a basic prototype which probably takes a few weeks per map. Then you play around a little bit, testing the gameplay, adjusting keep positions, siege ranges etc. So you are busy for maybe 2-3 months trying to create such a complex map. Maybe you’ve watched the Tyria3D series from Wooden Potatoes. This is the state I’d imagine the maps to be at this point.
Having done the testing there are maybe 3 candidates left. Those need to be refined even further, you add some basic gameplay to them and test which is the best. I’d guess this takes around 1-2 months.
In the meanwhile you need to create all the textures needed, programm the AI, design your NPC’s, do the audio, test things repeatedly while refining your terrain and adding some effects.
And then again: testing, testing, testing.

So you get about 6-7 months with costs for maybe 1 map designer, 1 gameplay designer, 2 artists and 1 sound designer, depending on their amount of work for the map only. You also have to consider the entire infrastructure, server costs, electricity costs, the cleaning person which altogether costs you quite a sum of money.
And of course all the people you need to test the gameplay.

And now the community demands you to do about a third of the work once again.

+1 OP

…..numbers and letters 15 yay!

With all the complaints that have been flooding the WvW forum, especially lately, I’d just like to say something positive:

ANet did a great job with the Arrow Cart line of sight fix. First, it could hit inside any structure when placed properly. Then they “fixed” that but it also made it impossible to hit anything outside a structure as well. Then they did the proper fix, and they did it very well – now Arrow Carts cannot hit inside structures but can be placed in out-of-reach areas while still being able to hit outside.

ANet also did a great job with the addition of Shield Generators. They provide a ton of utility without being overpowered and are a lot of fun to mess with both defensively and offensively. I’m extremely happy with how this siege item turned out and I believe with the use that it sees a lot of other players are as well.

That aside… Everything OP has said is true and the hundreds of other complaints players have made are also true. ANet has made a very small handfull of positive adjustments to WvW and a whole steaming heap of negative ones. I truly hope they see their mistakes before WvW dies completely.

Anet keeps reinventing the wheel, doesn’t adequately test it (Yo brah, your wheel’s square!), and ignores a majority of feedback from the limited testing they actually did. All the complaints on this forum where voiced in the Desert BL stress test forums, four months before launch.

I’d just like to point out that it doesn’t take a year to make a map. I don’t have a link to back this up, but I’m pretty sure Anet’s saidnew maps have an 8 week development cycle. I’m pretty sure they said it either during one of the CDI’s, or mentioned it when they were pumping out LS story updates every 2 weeks. Either way, the time invested isn’t nearly a year or a year and a half.

Maybe we can get up a crowdfunding campain to bribe them to give us back the old maps?

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

ANet did a great job with the Arrow Cart line of sight fix. First, it could hit inside any structure when placed properly. Then they “fixed” that but it also made it impossible to hit anything outside a structure as well. Then they did the proper fix, and they did it very well – now Arrow Carts cannot hit inside structures but can be placed in out-of-reach areas while still being able to hit outside.

This is the type of mentality that infuriates me, not only about this game, the approach of Anet, but the people of today.

I do acknowledge that it was something that needed to be fixed, and it was fixed, albeit, not in a timely manner. This issue existed FOREVER. The only reason why it got fixed when it did is because of the camera changes that came out mid year made it so everyone could exploit the issue, not just people with multiple monitors and ifinity. The squeaky wheel got louder. That’s all.

Here’s the thing: why are you, and we (I’m not immune to this. I gave a big thank you when they fixed culling), thanking them so much for fixing things that were broken to begin with? That’s just a pretty sad state of the gaming community.

It’s like you buy a new car, and there’s all kinds of stuff on it that are broken or not working right. Yeah, it’s new, and has a really cool body shape, tinted windows, awesome paint job, and gets you from point A to B. But, the alignment is off, the radio only gets AM stations, the suspension is off. The AC only puts out heat. Only the passenger window roles down. Then, slowly, over the course of a couple years, the car company fixes each thing. We’ve been living with no AC in the summer, so we’re super happy when they fix it. But it never should have been sold in this state to begin with.

Concerning the OP:

I don’t even play Counterstrike — but I’m thinking of sending the development team a Christmas card.

This is C O M M U N I C A T I O N.

Hopefully, Anet will take notes….

Spurnshadow.3678:

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

ANet did a great job with the Arrow Cart line of sight fix. First, it could hit inside any structure when placed properly. Then they “fixed” that but it also made it impossible to hit anything outside a structure as well. Then they did the proper fix, and they did it very well – now Arrow Carts cannot hit inside structures but can be placed in out-of-reach areas while still being able to hit outside.

This is the type of mentality that infuriates me, not only about this game, the approach of Anet, but the people of today.

I do acknowledge that it was something that needed to be fixed, and it was fixed, albeit, not in a timely manner. This issue existed FOREVER. The only reason why it got fixed when it did is because of the camera changes that came out mid year made it so everyone could exploit the issue, not just people with multiple monitors and ifinity. The squeaky wheel got louder. That’s all.

Here’s the thing: why are you, and we (I’m not immune to this. I gave a big thank you when they fixed culling), thanking them so much for fixing things that were broken to begin with? That’s just a pretty sad state of the gaming community.

It’s like you buy a new car, and there’s all kinds of stuff on it that are broken or not working right. Yeah, it’s new, and has a really cool body shape, tinted windows, awesome paint job, and gets you from point A to B. But, the alignment is off, the radio only gets AM stations, the suspension is off. The AC only puts out heat. Only the passenger window roles down. Then, slowly, over the course of a couple years, the car company fixes each thing. We’ve been living with no AC in the summer, so we’re super happy when they fix it. But it never should have been sold in this state to begin with.

WvW is more like training a dog. At the beginning they do what they want, have no idea what you wanna tell them and you have to invest a lot of time. But if they finally do something right you gotta give them a cookie
PS: no offense against the devs

PPS: I hope they stick to their promises of more communication.

Well, this is how a company treats customers…