Guild Wars 2

LHound.8964:

Sepreh.5924:

Recently, when I have come up against one of these builds when roaming, I will just alt-F4. I dont care if they get a bag or if I have to run back from spawn.

^ Ridiculous.

If anyone else feels the same, I urge you to just alt-F4 when you come up against these builds.

^Even more ridiculous.

Let’s me put this in a way that i might not get an infraction. L2P!
Just because you get your feelings hurt against certain class builds, do that mean you should ALT+F4 the game? No and Never! Learning to win and Learning to loose are two sides of the same coin and quite needed in this kind of games. kitten happens. Deal with it…

PS: I don’t have any of those “OP class builds” you are referring.

I am not sure how many times I will have to repeat myself.

It does not have to do with having feelings hurt against certain builds. It does not have to do with thinking that a build is OP. It does not have to do with player skill on either end. It has to do with certain builds being inherently un-fun to play against.

If I hated losing that much, I would stick to PvE or move to a different game. I have said this before in this thread and will continue to say it. Playing vs an unfun build does not mean the same thing as playing vs a build you lost to. Some of my most fun fights were fights I ultimately ended up losing. Just last week, I was practicing fighting vs the same dd ele over and over who was clearly skilled – able to dodge all my “set up” skills and interrupt me whenever I was trying to use a high-impact skill/heal. I lost. Over and over. But it was a good fight with a good back and forth and was a fun fight. Neither of us had to use the strategy “spam x” and expect to win. Neither of us reset the fight whenever things were going slightly in the favor of our opponent. We joined a part together eventually and mutually respected each other and the fights. I let him know that he was clearly more skilled than I was (which he appropriately agreed with) and asked for advice about becoming a better player.

During those fights I lost. Over and over. But they were fun because the core mechanics involved did not make the fight one sided. And by one sided, I do not mean one side was overpowered. I mean that one side was the one enjoying the fight while the other was fighting and possibly winning but fighting against a build that used a mechanic/mechanics that do not allow for a good back and forth fight.

Cameron.2315:

Find a new game end of discussion

There is no reason for me to do that. I enjoy this game a lot. I do not enjoy playing against a few select builds that use mechanics that are inherently not fun for opponents to play against.

Nobody cares what you think is fun.

Just keep alt-f4’ing

What I find ironic is the roamer is a roamer for a reason. Perma stealth thieves are paper in a zerg, so are multi illusion mesmers. The reason you are roaming is likely the same, your “power necro” probably gets steamrolled in the zerg. You are roaming and so are these build types because you both have the same problem, you’re weak against multiple opponents and therefore cannot compete in open battle.

This is not a dig, it’s a simple truth, light armor toons cannot stand arrow carts, siege in general crushes them so you don’t see front line mesmers/engineers/necros all that often, not that it cannot be accomplished.

So, in your roaming, as you pick off sentries and caravans, you come across another human. Uh oh….not an NPC, might have a dangerous build and you go for ALT-F4? I spent 20 minutes with 4 other players trying to nail down a stupid perma stealth thief. He killed all of us at least once, but I didn’t rage quit, I kept trying because that’s the only way I will ever learn how to beat them. If I run and hide because the build “isn’t fair” then I am always going to run and hide.

Case in point, I have a condi necro with, at buff, 79% crit chance and 65% crit damage. My staff has a superior sigil of torment which cause an AoE of Torment for 8 seconds with a cool down of 7. That’s pretty much perma torment in a zerg and really annoying in 1V1 for the other player who’s been blinded, tormented and condi damaged to the 10th degree. How is that fair that condition damage ignores armor?

That warrior/ranger/whatever is thinking, aw man, this is helpless but guess what, that’s the way it works. Sometimes you get rolled, sometimes you get tea bagged but the only answer is to port, repair and keep learning. Be the good loser as well as the good winner and in all honesty, happy roaming.

Some people have reading problems, or rage problem, or both :/…

When roaming with my ranger I can expect to enjoy fights against any class, sometimes I win and sometimes I lose.

But some build are just lame, a fight against Engi/Mesmer with perplexity runes or a perma stealth thief is just boring.

Perplexity : fight starts, 8/10 stacks of confusion… ok ill wait my condi removal —> stacks are gone it’s time to attack… oh another 8/10 stacks, let’s w8 again and again and again while he can attack without paying attention to anything but its skill bar.

Perma stealth : Dodge BS, he stealth, dodge BS, he stealth.. again and again and again untill he get bored and escape or get killed.

I’ve tried out once Perplexity runes with SB/GS + drake pet and it was too much powerfull to be anjoyable.

Sepreh.5924:

LHound.8964:

Sepreh.5924:

Recently, when I have come up against one of these builds when roaming, I will just alt-F4. I dont care if they get a bag or if I have to run back from spawn.

^ Ridiculous.

If anyone else feels the same, I urge you to just alt-F4 when you come up against these builds.

^Even more ridiculous.

Let’s me put this in a way that i might not get an infraction. L2P!
Just because you get your feelings hurt against certain class builds, do that mean you should ALT+F4 the game? No and Never! Learning to win and Learning to loose are two sides of the same coin and quite needed in this kind of games. kitten happens. Deal with it…

PS: I don’t have any of those “OP class builds” you are referring.

I am not sure how many times I will have to repeat myself.

It does not have to do with having feelings hurt against certain builds. It does not have to do with thinking that a build is OP. It does not have to do with player skill on either end. It has to do with certain builds being inherently un-fun to play against.

If I hated losing that much, I would stick to PvE or move to a different game. I have said this before in this thread and will continue to say it. Playing vs an unfun build does not mean the same thing as playing vs a build you lost to. Some of my most fun fights were fights I ultimately ended up losing. Just last week, I was practicing fighting vs the same dd ele over and over who was clearly skilled – able to dodge all my “set up” skills and interrupt me whenever I was trying to use a high-impact skill/heal. I lost. Over and over. But it was a good fight with a good back and forth and was a fun fight. Neither of us had to use the strategy “spam x” and expect to win. Neither of us reset the fight whenever things were going slightly in the favor of our opponent. We joined a part together eventually and mutually respected each other and the fights. I let him know that he was clearly more skilled than I was (which he appropriately agreed with) and asked for advice about becoming a better player.

During those fights I lost. Over and over. But they were fun because the core mechanics involved did not make the fight one sided. And by one sided, I do not mean one side was overpowered. I mean that one side was the one enjoying the fight while the other was fighting and possibly winning but fighting against a build that used a mechanic/mechanics that do not allow for a good back and forth fight.

Clearly you didn’t understood what I’ve written. I don’t disagree that there are OP classes and builds. I disagree that doing ALT+F4 to make a point or inciting others to do the same is Ridiculous.

WvW by it’s own definition is finding how to unbalance things. It don’t matter if it’s fun or not, as long as the points goes to either side. I’ve built my Mesmer in a way to counter the Thieves Stealth Mechanic, and never lost a fight with them since, so i evened the odds in my advantage. Others do the same, and some classes due to poorly design made have easy access to those game breaking mechanics.

You can’t expect to fight every class with the same builds (like power Necro) and get the same amount of fun from each fight! Some will be fair, some you will stomp and some you will be stomped. That’s the whole concept of WvW. Odds being always different!

My point still stands. I find ridiculous to ALT+F4 to make a stand. It’s abuse IMHO should lead to penalties and in the ultimate case to a ban. Like the League of Legends system!

/cheers

Cassocaster.4576:

The reason you are roaming is likely the same, your “power necro” probably gets steamrolled in the zerg

Sort of, but not completely. A berserker power build ends up screwing over a zerg (rally bot) so I do not bother to use it in a zerg. I switch to a higher toughness, well based build. The reason that I am roaming is not because my build does not do well in a zerg (I would just switch the build) but instead in order to find smaller fights that require a different type of gameplay. Another question would be “why WvW rather than PvP dueling”. The short answer to that question is that I chose not to roam with food or oil in order to have some small degree of disadvantage with the rationale that this will force me to develop my skills a little more than I would need to otherwise. This is not at all saying that running food or oil is skilless. It is saying that I am doing something in order to force myself to grow as a player.

Cassocaster.4576:

So, in your roaming, as you pick off sentries and caravans, you come across another human. Uh oh….not an NPC, might have a dangerous build and you go for ALT-F4?

I can see where it may seem that this is the case but honestly it is not. I pick off sentries and caravans out of boredom while looking for 1 or 2 people from the enemy server to fight. The whole time I am looking for fights. The whole reason I began roaming was to work on my ability to play this build, work on muscle memory for the weapons/skills, play around with skills and traits, etc. I get excited when I see someone to fight. As soon as it turns out to be one of those unfun builds, however, I leave. It is not saying that the opponents build isn’t fair and it is not saying that those builds cannot be beaten. They can and the more you fight them the more you learn about how to beat them. But it doesnt have to do with winning or losing. It has to do with the nature of the fight being boring, regardless of the outcome.

Cassocaster.4576:

Sometimes you get rolled, sometimes you get tea bagged but the only answer is to port, repair and keep learning. Be the good loser as well as the good winner and in all honesty, happy roaming.

I agree with this 100%. Please do not think that I do not. It has more to do with a fight not being a fun fight rather than getting rolled or rolling. Of course fights where the other player is much better than you or much worse than you and are one sided in that way tend to be less fulfilling than even matchups or matchups with a slighter variation in skill level. But those are not the fights that I am talking about. I am talking about the fights where regardless of the outcome or skill level, the nature of the fight is not fun.

And I wish you happy roaming too. I really do enjoy running into others who enjoy good, fun fights

Cassocaster.4576:

Sometimes you get rolled, sometimes you get tea bagged but the only answer is to port, repair and keep learning. Be the good loser as well as the good winner and in all honesty, happy roaming.

I agree with this 100%. Please do not think that I do not. It has more to do with a fight not being a fun fight rather than getting rolled or rolling. Of course fights where the other player is much better than you or much worse than you and are one sided in that way tend to be less fulfilling than even matchups or matchups with a slighter variation in skill level. But those are not the fights that I am talking about. I am talking about the fights where regardless of the outcome or skill level, the nature of the fight is not fun.

And I wish you happy roaming too. I really do enjoy running into others who enjoy good, fun fights[/quote]

I appreciate your thoughtful and balanced response and I do understand the PIA some of these builds forces on you. I had hoped the Winters Day patch would have addressed some of it but they made it worse. Don’t quit, even if the fight is not fun because you are getting a lesson there, one way or the other.

Sepreh.5924:

Colly.4073:

Anet left us Mesmer’s with very little options when it came to condition based builds because of whiners like you who come and rage on the forums because they can’t dominate every class.

I am not “raging” because I cannot dominate your build. I am saying that it is an example of a build that is not fun for the opponent to play against.

With regards to Anet leaving you few options, I agree that the heart of the problem is there. But in the meantime, you have to stop ignoring the fact that certain builds just arent fun to fight. Again, it is independent of the skill of the player. Over time, you can tell when someone plays one of those builds well and when someone plays one of those builds poorly. It doesnt have to do with the skill of the player. I am not saying that the player playing that build is “less skilled” or that the build is carrying the player. What I am saying is that those builds use mechanics that are inherently not fun to play against as the opponent.

Ok in a way I agree that certain classes builds are not fun to fight against but I don’t think refusing to fight them is your answer, I find a condition necromancer particularly un-fun to fight because a skilled condition mancer can whittle you down to zero health in a matter of seconds. I used to avoid them like the plague “pardon the pun” but now I try to stay and fight and figure out a way make myself better and counter what they do.

Sepreh.5924:

As a power necro, there is little/no disengage so that is less of an option. I try to alt-f4 as soon as I see that it is an unfun build in order to drive the point home that I am not ragequitting, just refusing to fight

when facing thieves, you can just drop all your marks and wells on your feet and wait for the idiot to hit you. No need to put any effort into fighting those who abuse their mechanics

LHound.8964:

Clearly you didn’t understood what I’ve written. I don’t disagree that there are OP classes and builds. I disagree that doing ALT+F4 to make a point or inciting others to do the same is Ridiculous.

The point, made many times, is not that certain builds of certain classes are overpowered. It is that certain builds of certain classes are inherently not fun to play against, regardless of how inherently powerful or non powerful they are.

LHound.8964:

You can’t expect to fight every class with the same builds (like power Necro) and get the same amount of fun from each fight! Some will be fair, some you will stomp and some you will be stomped. That’s the whole concept of WvW. Odds being always different!

Again, you are equating a fight being fun with that fight having odds in your favor. That is not the point that I am making. The odds can be very much in your favor and the fight can still be unfun based on the mechanics of the build that you are playing against.

LHound.8964:

My point still stands. I find ridiculous to ALT+F4 to make a stand. It’s abuse IMHO should lead to penalties and in the ultimate case to a ban. Like the League of Legends system!

Now, getting back to your main point about the alt-F4 strategy being stupid. I agree that it sucks (the topic is called “a kitteny decision I have made”). If I were playing a class that had disengage, I would see that my opponent is playing one of those unfun builds and just disengage. But, I am not playing a class that has suboptimal disengage so at least for now, alt-F4 is the best option when it comes to refusing to continue to fight.

Prysin.8542:

Sepreh.5924:

As a power necro, there is little/no disengage so that is less of an option. I try to alt-f4 as soon as I see that it is an unfun build in order to drive the point home that I am not ragequitting, just refusing to fight

when facing thieves, you can just drop all your marks and wells on your feet and wait for the idiot to hit you. No need to put any effort into fighting those who abuse their mechanics

I agree that there are clear and easy ways to kill certain builds, like the permastealth thief, especially if they are in the hands of less-skilled players, and that over time playing against those builds, you learn these strategies. The point is that the nature of certain specific build’s mechanics are not fun to fight against. Dropping all your marks and wells on your feet and waiting for someone to hit you is not fun counterplay. It is boring, does not require skill and after you learn to do it, does not help you to grow as a player

No, it does not, but it also forces the thief to rethink and get another build unless he/she wanna keep dieing.
Every action has a opposite and equal reaction.
IF dropping wells and marks on your feet make you feel crap, imagine how crap it must feel for the thief, who imagined you to be a squishy lootbag, to suddenly implode right by your feet.

Colly.4073:

I used to avoid them like the plague “pardon the pun”

Hahaha, it turns out that plague form is pretty easy to avoid

Just trying to lighten up the overall mood of the thread. I appreciate the pun!

Sepreh.5924:

LHound.8964:

Clearly you didn’t understood what I’ve written. I don’t disagree that there are OP classes and builds. I disagree that doing ALT+F4 to make a point or inciting others to do the same is Ridiculous.

The point, made many times, is not that certain builds of certain classes are overpowered. It is that certain builds of certain classes are inherently not fun to play against, regardless of how inherently powerful or non powerful they are.

LHound.8964:

You can’t expect to fight every class with the same builds (like power Necro) and get the same amount of fun from each fight! Some will be fair, some you will stomp and some you will be stomped. That’s the whole concept of WvW. Odds being always different!

Again, you are equating a fight being fun with that fight having odds in your favor. That is not the point that I am making. The odds can be very much in your favor and the fight can still be unfun based on the mechanics of the build that you are playing against.

LHound.8964:

My point still stands. I find ridiculous to ALT+F4 to make a stand. It’s abuse IMHO should lead to penalties and in the ultimate case to a ban. Like the League of Legends system!

Now, getting back to your main point about the alt-F4 strategy being stupid. I agree that it sucks (the topic is called “a kitteny decision I have made”). If I were playing a class that had disengage, I would see that my opponent is playing one of those unfun builds and just disengage. But, I am not playing a class that has suboptimal disengage so at least for now, alt-F4 is the best option when it comes to refusing to continue to fight.

hum…. I honestly can’t understand your decision.
You are basing the definition of fun entirely on your perception. More, you were inciting others to do the same, considering their definition of fun is the same as yours. To me your “kitteny decision” is never justified. It’s anti-game.

To me is quite fun to battle those builds. I always loved challenges and facing them is challenging to me. I may loose 8 out of 10, against those builds, but I’ll turn the table even if that means changing my build entirely. That’s the sole reason I’ve got 5 full equipment sets on my Mesmer.

LHound.8964:

hum…. I honestly can’t understand your decision.
You are basing the definition of fun entirely on your perception. More, you were inciting others to do the same, considering their definition of fun is the same as yours. To me your “kitteny decision” is never justified. It’s anti-game.

I know I am responding to many of your posts and hope you do not think that my antagonism is malignant in nature. I enjoy the back and forth discussion.

While I agree that my perception strongly colors my definition of fun, before getting involved in this discussion I also appreciated that I was observing similar complaints about builds that are not fun to fight against from forums, guild members, server mates on teamspeak, etc. I know that there is some degree of confirmation bias involved but I do not think that it fully negates the perception that many individuals do not enjoy the fights vs particular builds.

Yeah those gimmick mechanics are in the game to help bad players feel good., it’s what this generation of games love to do.

Why are people still complaining about perplexity runes? It has a decent length ICD now. It requires skilled timing to use them to their full potential. I don’t see how this is still an issue.

This argument might hold some water if there was some quantifiable calculation of “fun” fights. Unfortunately, those fights that you find boring might be incredibly entertaining to other people. I know that I’ve had some really fun fights with pretty much every build you mentioned. Moreover, they are probably a blast to the players on the other side of the duel. So whose definition of fun is more valid?

That being said, if you want to leave a fight before it even starts because it might not be as fun as you’d like: Go right ahead. Most likely one less person complaining in map chat about builds they personally don’t like to fight. I can only hope that the map is queued.

Sepreh.5924:

I will probably get some flack for this, but just want to see if others are taking a similar approach while roaming in WvW. I have been roaming in WvW with my power necromancer for a while now and am perfectly aware that it is not the most effective roamer, but it is certainly fun and I think over time I have gotten somewhat better at playing the class/build.

Now while roaming in WvW, I have found myself coming up against two broad categories of opponents. Opponents who are fun to fight and those who use extremely broken mechanics to great effect. There are several builds that exist that, IMO, are just not fun to fight. A condition/invisible mesmer with endless dodge roll clones is not fun to fight. A perma-evade or perma-stealth thief is not fun to fight. Most builds that use perplexity runes are not fun to fight.

That is not to say that I think that they are “op”, but as the opponent, there is little enjoyment in fighting certain builds. I have fought them and sometimes I win and sometimes I lose. Regardless of the outcome, the fight wasnt fun. Recently, when I have come up against one of these builds when roaming, I will just alt-F4. I dont care if they get a bag or if I have to run back from spawn.

As much as we can say “WvW isnt balanced”, which is true, some fights are not fun and I refuse to fight them. If anyone else feels the same, I urge you to just alt-F4 when you come up against these builds. Maybe over time when people who play these builds see that they cannot find fights, they will play a build/class that allows for a good back and forth without resetting the fight whenever they get close to losing.

Simple solution for your problem is go play PVE learn mechanic and be the King of your village or delete game and play with your barbie!

I started roaming a few weeks ago with my elementalist. At the beginning i had problems with thieves too, but 90% of the thieves are bad players – most of the time they will just win a 1 on 1 because tieves are super easy to play and hit like crazy. Now I win most of the fights versus thieves. There are only a few good thieves I´m struggling with.

I hate to play against mesmers. I think mesmers are probably the kings in roaming when it comes to 1 on 1(they have a big build diversity too).

With the other classes I dont have much problems(and I play the most f…ed up class for 1 on 1). I am dont counting warriors into this, warriors are the untouchable ANet Gods in this game.

Fasyx.9347:

I started roaming a few weeks ago with my elementalist. At the beginning i had problems with thieves too, but 90% of the thieves are bad players – most of the time they will just win a 1 on 1 because tieves are super easy to play and hit like crazy. Now I win most of the fights versus thieves. There are only a few good thieves I´m struggling with.

I hate to play against mesmers. I think mesmers are probably the kings in roaming when it comes to 1 on 1(they have a big build diversity too).

With the other classes I dont have much problems(and I play the most f…ed up class for 1 on 1). I am dont counting warriors into this, warriors are the untouchable ANet Gods in this game.

tieves are super easy to play LOL LOL LOL

WhiteAndMilky.2514:

Why are people still complaining about perplexity runes? It has a decent length ICD now. It requires skilled timing to use them to their full potential. I don’t see how this is still an issue.

Sepreh.5924:

I appreciate the feedback and apologize for the ambiguity in my statement regarding perplexity runes. When I mentioned them, I was talking about the pre-nerf version in combination with builds that were able to spam interrupts to stack ungodly amounts of it. There were counters (e.g. dont use skills until it runs out) but it was not fun to play against. I have not had enough fights vs the post-patch version to have an opinion about it.

dagneyandleo.6378:

This argument might hold some water if there was some quantifiable calculation of “fun” fights. Unfortunately, those fights that you find boring might be incredibly entertaining to other people. I know that I’ve had some really fun fights with pretty much every build you mentioned. Moreover, they are probably a blast to the players on the other side of the duel. So whose definition of fun is more valid?

That being said, if you want to leave a fight before it even starts because it might not be as fun as you’d like: Go right ahead. Most likely one less person complaining in map chat about builds they personally don’t like to fight. I can only hope that the map is queued.

A good point. There is a fantastically rewarding spread of emotions I experience when I stomp a pony-cheese build into the ground.

I also enjoy taking my builds into combat with people who counter me. I am almost positive that they will defeat me, but I am still going to engage them because it will make me a better player. Not only will I learn my limits vs that build, but it will improve my efficiency vs builds that I already am good at fighting. If you are continually beating a certain build, you may find yourself getting lax and playing sloppy. I am constantly trying to test myself and see what is possible within each of my builds parameters.

When I’m dueling in the arena, if someone beats me, it’s not over. I’ll duel them again, and again, until I can determine if there is a way my build can counter them and their playstyle. Often I see players get defeated and then just stand off to the side and watch or give up. You’re doing it wrong! Fight them until your fingers bleed! Many times people will refuse to re-duel you because you know their tricks now

Jorjeis.2169:

As a condition mesmer with endless dodge roll clones, I thank you for the free bag.

As a backstab thief with endless stealth, I thank you for the free bag.

Sorry I missed the patch notes:

Necromancer gets a new escape mechanic:

Mark of Shame Alt-F4 now teleports user to desktop. Unlimited range, cool down is dependent on user’s hardware specification and server’s queue time.

In all seriousness though I cannot agree that hitting Alt-F4 every time you see a class you don’t want to fight is a legitimate way to play the game and it would probably even make more sense to me if you just let the other player kill you by doing nothing, at least it would be faster to start playing again.

Either that or you’re based on a T1 server and have gotten that frustrated with queue times that you decided to make a post inciting others to Alt-F4 every time they see a thief or mesmer, which when roaming is going to be fairly frequent, in order to get the queues moving faster.

Wow the hubris of the OP is absolutely staggering. Apparently he/she get’s to decide what is and is not a fun build. If you don’t meet that standard (regardless of the skill level required of your build) bam, he rage quits.

As mentioned though, go for it. Just proves you are a bad and gives us free bags.

Alt+F4 = Deceptive Evasion!

Power Necro also, your right pu mesmer is a boring fight, I find hammer warriors just as bad with my lack of stability also.

now lets see that’s 2 specs that are unfun to fight and have a good chance to kill me. That seems fine to me, all classes have weaknesses and you listed the ones we have. I really don’t see the problem with this. When I run a Condi/power hybrid build I have a problem with high burst specs like DD thief. Its the way it should be. Its when your class has no weaknesses or lacks vs most classes/builds that there is a problem.

btw PU mes, dagger 4, DS, doom, life blast, life blast, life siphon. This can usely put them of the defense and siphon will hit them even after they go stealth.

Here’s what I have learned about WvW. Numbers are your best friend. If you want to 1v1, take yourself elsewhere. If you want a fight where anything can happen and anything goes, you’re in the right place. When I roam in WvW, I’m honestly not ashamed to say I’m a coward. And I’ll fight who I come across but if they’re eating my health too fast I’ll find the nearest friend/NPC I can to help me out. If anyone ever complained it was unfair well… It’s WvW… Not PvP. I’m not looking to duel I’m looking to flip camps/sentrys and keep tabs on your server. If I was looking to duel, I might be less inclined to run away when I’m outmatched.
Basically my point is, which I’ve made before in similar posts.. People who are looking for fights in WvW irritate me. Either roam and flip things, defend areas that are yours, or join the zerg. Killing one person every twenty minutes really does nothing to contribute to your server.

WhiteAndMilky.2514:

I also enjoy taking my builds into combat with people who counter me. I am almost positive that they will defeat me, but I am still going to engage them because it will make me a better player. Not only will I learn my limits vs that build, but it will improve my efficiency vs builds that I already am good at fighting. If you are continually beating a certain build, you may find yourself getting lax and playing sloppy. I am constantly trying to test myself and see what is possible within each of my builds parameters.

When I’m dueling in the arena, if someone beats me, it’s not over. I’ll duel them again, and again, until I can determine if there is a way my build can counter them and their playstyle. Often I see players get defeated and then just stand off to the side and watch or give up. You’re doing it wrong! Fight them until your fingers bleed! Many times people will refuse to re-duel you because you know their tricks now

I dont think that you and I necessarily have completely different playstyles in WvW or duels and appreciate your approach. To be honest, I do the same thing. I try to test the limits of my build whenever possible. I try to fight people who have builds that have counters to my build. Being able to beat someone under these circumstances gives you a sense of mastery of the class/build.

I also agree with fighting someone over and over when I lose in a duel. Sometimes I feel bad that I keep asking them to fight but I try to learn from each encounter and change my strategy to see if the change is more effective. It can be very fun and rewarding.

There are, however, some builds that no matter how much you play against or how much you master strategies to counter them, continue to be fights that are not fun because of the core mechanic of the build. Sure you learn how to effectively defeat them. Sure you can (and do) adjust your strategy in order to try to win. But the fact of the matter is that, win or lose, the fight was not enjoyable.

I really do appreciate your approach and think that -2 or 3 builds that I now refuse to engage with, we have similar approaches to learning the game. I would like to run into you to go back and forth one day….

But if the core mechanic you are using is not enjoyable for me as an opponent, I will likely leave

Artorias.4760:

Sorry I missed the patch notes:

---

Necromancer gets a new escape mechanic:

Mark of Shame Alt-F4 now teleports user to desktop. Unlimited range, cool down is dependent on user’s hardware specification and server’s queue time.

---

Hahaha I like it If I take greater marks, does it become unblockable?

You do realize you can run different specs right?
Would you quit if everyone ran plex runes?

fett.9573:

You do realize you can run different specs right?
Would you quit if everyone ran plex runes?

No. I would quit if everyone used perplexity runes how they were before the nerf (with no ICD) in builds that allow you to spam multiple interrupts

Sepreh.5924:

fett.9573:

You do realize you can run different specs right?
Would you quit if everyone ran plex runes?

No. I would quit if everyone used perplexity runes how they were before the nerf (with no ICD) in builds that allow you to spam multiple interrupts

So now that there’s an ICD, are you still going the route of alt f4? What if you run into a hammer stun warrior? Do you oppose the challenge of fighting against players with such builds?
I would think it takes less time to just die and revive than to restart the game. Do you have fun while restarting? Is it more enjoyable to you than reviving?

Aberrant.6749:

You guys complaining about XYZ might want to read this.

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html

This doesn’t mean that I don’t agree that some things are in need of tweaking, but alt+f4-ing is not the answer.

If you only want to fight 1v1 Vs. people of specific specs there is the OS.

That’s a cool article, but it’s hard to apply it to an MMO like GW2, especially when we are talking about World vs. World.

To the OP I think as a roamer you need to understand that you are going to come across people who them selves are roaming and have an build optimised for that purpose, that usually limits your choices etc. to a few kinds of builds. I solo roam a lot on my Engi (no I don’t use perplexity), and I find that certain builds can be Hard to fight against (when I meet these I will usually try to group them and fight them a few times at the windmill to try and improve), but I have never alt f4’d and tbh I personally hate it when people do this. I think anyone who does should face a penalty like a deserters buff that prevents you from logging In to WvW for 30 mins or something. I know you say you don’t do it but the amount of people who do it when they are about to go down is on the increase and in my opinion it is a cowardly trick.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

I’ll fight who I come across but if they’re eating my health too fast I’ll find the nearest friend/NPC I can to help me out. If anyone ever complained it was unfair well… It’s WvW… Not PvP.

I had that experience just last night. On my zerg build Mesmer and while on my way back to the zerg a thief jumps me. I just blinked and high tailed it for a nearby sentry. Afterward my victory the thief sent me a party request to politely complain he wanted to 1v1. I apologized for not being in a 1v1 build (nor mood) and expressed it wouldn’t have been a fun fight because it’d just be a free kill. I usually like to accommodate the needs of my fellow players but, sometimes I just don’t have the time for it.

For the article, it’s missing the large aspect of how one defines a win. A win is not as simple as a number on the screen. A win is as special and unique as each of us are. Like in my above example, I’ll usually dive into every fight and give a roamer their kill because I know it makes them happy. I also know with Zerg’s running all over the map, 1v1’s are few and infrequent. So I make it a conscious choice to take them when they come along. Thus, my apparent lose in a 1v1 is actually a win-win from my perspective.

People are too lost in the numbers to remember the spirit in which games were made for….

I still don’t understand your concept of an “unfun” build to fight against. You have said that you don’t simply mean the powerful or hard to counter builds. Is it simply those that make the fight less straightforward?
Take mesmers for an example, you said that the PU condition build is one of the ones falling into the “unfun” category. Is this because of the many target drops and clones to hide behind? Because this is an inherently defensive setup, is it any worse than going up against a bunker guardian?
Shatter mesmers also someone was saying is one of these builds that they refuse to fight. Creating illusions is the core mechanic of the mesmer and does require more attention to deal with. However if all these builds are ones that you will not even engage, what does that leave them with? Phantasm builds are generally pretty boring to play ( at least for me). So that leaves us with lockdown mesmers and I think I know how you would feel about that.
Thus your idea of “unfun” builds has almost completely eliminated an entire class as an opponent due to a dislike of playing against their core mechanic.
I seriously question how you can label certain builds/mechanics as “unfun” and refuse to play against them. The only reason I can see, and I know that you have stated the opposite many times during this thread is that you can’t/find it overly difficult to face these builds

EDIT: I apologise if my post has come across as inflammatory, this was not my intention, I am however quite appalled and shocked by the ideas in this topic.

fett.9573:

So now that there’s an ICD, are you still going the route of alt f4? What if you run into a hammer stun warrior? Do you oppose the challenge of fighting against players with such builds?
I would think it takes less time to just die and revive than to restart the game. Do you have fun while restarting? Is it more enjoyable to you than reviving?

With regards to alt-f4 with the new ICD on perplexity runes, I have not come across people using them enough to make a determination about whether is is a reasonably fun mechanic to play against. So, right now I would not alt-f4 because I do not know the answer of whether it is an unfun build.

Hammer stun warrior were, for a period of time, overpowered but during that time I did not consider them one of the unfun builds. The reason for this was the counterplay. The counterplay to that build was to dodge the high impact stuns, create distance between yourself and the warrior and kite them while trying to kill them.

The counterplay to, for example, a permastealth build is to spam AOE, ideally AOE that can apply conditions and attack where you guess that your opponent is. That is not a fun way to play and brings down the overall enjoyment of the game for the non-broken build significantly

Sepreh.5924:

Again, OP and being unfun to fight against are two different things.

I always get a kick out of threads like this by “roamers”. Especially when they have links in their signature to videos of them ganking low ranked bearbow rangers and staff eles while they try to cross the map. I bet your opponents in those vids thought those fights were really fun. They probably saw all the opportunities to learn how to fight a class that can spec glass cannon and still have over 30k HP (5k autoattacks leave so much room for fun counterplay…. yeah….).

Pretty sure you only care about your own “fun” and that means “winning”. Sorry, but I don’t see any evidence to the contrary.

Sepreh.5924:

The counterplay to, for example, a permastealth build is to spam AOE, ideally AOE that can apply conditions and attack where you guess that your opponent is. That is not a fun way to play and brings down the overall enjoyment of the game for the non-broken build significantly

Get off your high horse. Just because you don’t like the counter play that doesn’t make a build broken.

Sounds like your biggest complaints are against classes that have stealth (mesmer, theif seem to be the focus). Perhaps you would like to go play carebears online? Stealth is a core mechanic of many mmos so you might have better luck elsewhere.

Eatpies.6598:

I still don’t understand your concept of an “unfun” build to fight against. You have said that you don’t simply mean the powerful or hard to counter builds. Is it simply those that make the fight less straightforward?
Take mesmers for an example, you said that the PU condition build is one of the ones falling into the “unfun” category. Is this because of the many target drops and clones to hide behind? Because this is an inherently defensive setup, is it any worse than going up against a bunker guardian?
Shatter mesmers also someone was saying is one of these builds that they refuse to fight. Creating illusions is the core mechanic of the mesmer and does require more attention to deal with. However if all these builds are ones that you will not even engage, what does that leave them with? Phantasm builds are generally pretty boring to play ( at least for me). So that leaves us with lockdown mesmers and I think I know how you would feel about that.
Thus your idea of “unfun” builds has almost completely eliminated an entire class as an opponent due to a dislike of playing against their core mechanic.
I seriously question how you can label certain builds/mechanics as “unfun” and refuse to play against them. The only reason I can see, and I know that you have stated the opposite many times during this thread is that you can’t/find it overly difficult to face these builds

EDIT: I apologise if my post has come across as inflammatory, this was not my intention, I am however quite appalled and shocked by the ideas in this topic.

No need to apologize. I know that many people would be upset and I did not make this topic with the purpose of simply upsetting people.

What I see day in and day out in the forums and in guild chat and on TS is people talking about x build and y build being OP. The more I hear about it and the more I ask people about it, the more it becomes clear that what they are not bothered about is whether a build is “too powerful” (read:op) but instead whether fighting the fight is enjoyable, regardless of the outcome. At first, people may say it is because x or y build is “op”, but when you question them about it and get to the root of what they are saying, it is that the build they are playing against relies on a gimmicky mechanic/mechanics that make the fight “one sided”, in that one side is inherently in control of the fight and the other side can win, sometimes easily, but never with the satisfaction that you get from a skill based win.

Rather than see forum post after forum post about x or y build being “op” when in fact it is just a build that is not fun to fight, I am proposing an alternative here. Just don’t bother to fight them. If they want to run a build that overall lowers the pleasure of playing the game for opponents not playing that build, that is and has been their prerogative. If I or anyone else decides that we will not fight them, that is our prerogative.

I agree with the OP to some extent as someone who has spent hundreds and hundreds of hours roaming with an engi and thief, and I also just finished a mesmer for roaming thanks to the traveler runes. You do pretty much see the same 3-4 builds over and over with very little variance on other roamers (read: not stray players, clueless upscales, etc.), but that’s also true of the highly efficient zerging builds and the sPvP meta. There is also a muddled metagame in WvW. The builds everyone loves to hate have been part of it basically since launch.

Thrashbarg.9820:

Sepreh.5924:

Again, OP and being unfun to fight against are two different things.

I always get a kick out of threads like this by “roamers”. Especially when they have links in their signature to videos of them ganking low ranked bearbow rangers and staff eles while they try to cross the map. I bet your opponents in those vids thought those fights were really fun. They probably saw all the opportunities to learn how to fight a class that can spec glass cannon and still have over 30k HP (5k autoattacks leave so much room for fun counterplay…. yeah….).

Pretty sure you only care about your own “fun” and that means “winning”. Sorry, but I don’t see any evidence to the contrary.

Nice, personal attack against the youtube videos. Didn’t see that one coming but good counter argument. That was my first compilation video and meant to show some of the gameplay of a build that has been less popular in the necromancer community. It was not meant to show an example of “good” play.

Please do not be so dense and continue to equate fun with winning. There is another video on the same page where I fight a warrior and specifically point it out as a fight that was fun. Now, I know that you will say “it was fun because you won” but I did not consider that a win at all because someone from my server jumped in. The warrior was going to kill me. As far as I am concerned it was a loss. And I made many mistakes during that fight and learned from them. The fact of the matter is that fun does not mean winning. It means having a good back and forth fight that does not rely on gimmicky mechanics.

Sepreh.5924:

Thrashbarg.9820:

Sepreh.5924:

Again, OP and being unfun to fight against are two different things.

I always get a kick out of threads like this by “roamers”. Especially when they have links in their signature to videos of them ganking low ranked bearbow rangers and staff eles while they try to cross the map. I bet your opponents in those vids thought those fights were really fun. They probably saw all the opportunities to learn how to fight a class that can spec glass cannon and still have over 30k HP (5k autoattacks leave so much room for fun counterplay…. yeah….).

Pretty sure you only care about your own “fun” and that means “winning”. Sorry, but I don’t see any evidence to the contrary.

Nice, personal attack against the youtube videos. Didn’t see that one coming but good counter argument. That was my first compilation video and meant to show some of the gameplay of a build that has been less popular in the necromancer community. It was not meant to show an example of “good” play.

Please do not be so dense and continue to equate fun with winning. There is another video on the same page where I fight a warrior and specifically point it out as a fight that was fun. Now, I know that you will say “it was fun because you won” but I did not consider that a win at all because someone from my server jumped in. The warrior was going to kill me. As far as I am concerned it was a loss. And I made many mistakes during that fight and learned from them. The fact of the matter is that fun does not mean winning. It means having a good back and forth fight that does not rely on gimmicky mechanics.

I didn’t mean to attack your videos, for what they are, there’s nothing wrong with them. They do, however, showcase your playstyle, which I see as un-fun to many of your opponents. I didn’t mean to imply the videos were an attempt to brag about skill. Just pointing out the irony that the opponents in the first few fights on your top video probably didn’t enjoy the fights and didn’t really have much to learn from them other than don’t run around alone or re-spec.

The build isn’t at all unpopular, half the necros I know run it or some close variation. It’s quite good at bursting down unsuspecting foes or people running builds not designed for 1v1/escaping. It has counter-builds, but many of them fall into your un-fun category.

tl;dr Your definition of fun (as with many roamers) is strange to me, and you seem to be advocating many of your own opponents to altf4 when you attack them.

Colly.4073:

How is playing a sceptre/torch Mesmer with endless clones and lots of invisibility skills abusing broken mechanic? They are perfectly legitimate skills and actually takes a fair bit if skill to use the build.

Hahahahahahaha. No.

Sepreh.5924:

Eatpies.6598:

I still don’t understand your concept of an “unfun” build to fight against. You have said that you don’t simply mean the powerful or hard to counter builds. Is it simply those that make the fight less straightforward?
Take mesmers for an example, you said that the PU condition build is one of the ones falling into the “unfun” category. Is this because of the many target drops and clones to hide behind? Because this is an inherently defensive setup, is it any worse than going up against a bunker guardian?
Shatter mesmers also someone was saying is one of these builds that they refuse to fight. Creating illusions is the core mechanic of the mesmer and does require more attention to deal with. However if all these builds are ones that you will not even engage, what does that leave them with? Phantasm builds are generally pretty boring to play ( at least for me). So that leaves us with lockdown mesmers and I think I know how you would feel about that.
Thus your idea of “unfun” builds has almost completely eliminated an entire class as an opponent due to a dislike of playing against their core mechanic.
I seriously question how you can label certain builds/mechanics as “unfun” and refuse to play against them. The only reason I can see, and I know that you have stated the opposite many times during this thread is that you can’t/find it overly difficult to face these builds

EDIT: I apologise if my post has come across as inflammatory, this was not my intention, I am however quite appalled and shocked by the ideas in this topic.

No need to apologize. I know that many people would be upset and I did not make this topic with the purpose of simply upsetting people.

What I see day in and day out in the forums and in guild chat and on TS is people talking about x build and y build being OP. The more I hear about it and the more I ask people about it, the more it becomes clear that what they are not bothered about is whether a build is “too powerful” (read:op) but instead whether fighting the fight is enjoyable, regardless of the outcome. At first, people may say it is because x or y build is “op”, but when you question them about it and get to the root of what they are saying, it is that the build they are playing against relies on a gimmicky mechanic/mechanics that make the fight “one sided”, in that one side is inherently in control of the fight and the other side can win, sometimes easily, but never with the satisfaction that you get from a skill based win.

Rather than see forum post after forum post about x or y build being “op” when in fact it is just a build that is not fun to fight, I am proposing an alternative here. Just don’t bother to fight them. If they want to run a build that overall lowers the pleasure of playing the game for opponents not playing that build, that is and has been their prerogative. If I or anyone else decides that we will not fight them, that is our prerogative.

I understand what you are trying to achieve by refusing to fight, however the mechanics that you may perceive as “gimmicky,” are to others legitimate ways of playing the game. Certain builds are designed to be as you say in control of the fight, this helps them stay on the offence and enables them to gain the upper hand if you do not pressure them to take control back. I do not, however see what it is that makes such builds that utilise the perhaps more annoying to counter mechanics not fun to fight.

Thrashbarg.9820:

I didn’t mean to attack your videos, for what they are, there’s nothing wrong with them. They do, however, showcase your playstyle, which I see as un-fun to many of your opponents. I didn’t mean to imply the videos were an attempt to brag about skill. Just pointing out the irony that the opponents in the first few fights on your top video probably didn’t enjoy the fights and didn’t really have much to learn from them other than don’t run around alone or re-spec.

The build isn’t at all unpopular, half the necros I know run it or some close variation. It’s quite good at bursting down unsuspecting foes or people running builds not designed for 1v1/escaping. It has counter-builds, but many of them fall into your un-fun category.

tl;dr Your definition of fun (as with many roamers) is strange to me, and you seem to be advocating many of your own opponents to altf4 when you attack them.

I apologize for misinterpreting the tone of your post and appreciate the clarification and mature conversation

With regards to the point about the power necro build I am running being one of the un-fun builds, I would answer in two parts. First, just like it is my prerogative to alt-f4 when I am playing against a build which is not fun because of the nature of the mechanics involved in its gameplay, it is the prerogative of an enemy to do the same to me.

The second part of my response has to do more with feedback from guild members, forums and TS, however. Although there may be enemies who consider the nature of the mechanics involved in my build’s gameplay to be un-fun, I rarely hear individuals from any of these sources talking about the “broken power necromancer”. Again, this is very likely to have many biases involved, but it seems that there is a reason that thread after thread, forum post after forum post, guild chat after guild chat and TS talk after TS talk, the same broken builds come up over and over again.

Less experienced players refer to them as “OP”. More experienced players refer to them as builds that have counters. But the sentiment remains that they are not fun for the opponent to play against.

Eatpies.6598:

I understand what you are trying to achieve by refusing to fight, however the mechanics that you may perceive as “gimmicky,” are to others legitimate ways of playing the game. Certain builds are designed to be as you say in control of the fight, this helps them stay on the offence and enables them to gain the upper hand if you do not pressure them to take control back. I do not, however see what it is that makes such builds that utilise the perhaps more annoying to counter mechanics not fun to fight.

Sorry that I am picking and choosing what I am responding to in this post but I thought it illustrated a good point.

Eatpies.6598:

I understand what you are trying to achieve by refusing to fight

I just want to make what I am trying to achieve more explicit. Every day I hear people complain about x build or y build that use broken mechanics for the reasons I have previously mentioned. On the one hand we have the problem of the mechanic of the build being un-fun to play against which I have already talked about ad nauseam.

On the other hand and perhaps more importantly are the repercussions of these builds propagating. There are several different options that I have seen people take when this happens:
1. They continue to fight them, learn the counter and over time tend to win against players with less skill and lose against players with more skill. The core mechanic that the opponent build uses still is not fun to play against
2. They say “kitten it, this game is unbalanced” and quit playing altogether
3. They say “kitten it, if everyone else is going to run these broken builds I will too” and the cancer spreads
4. They decide that world vs world should exist solely for zerg battles and stick with blobs of people on the map
5. They continue to fight them, learn the counter or create a build specifically meant to counter them then kill them whenever possible and take pleasure in the fact that they killed someone running a gimmicky, un-fun build

I am trying to discuss another option which is simply not to bother with those builds. Don’t fight them. Don’t worsen the problem. Don’t leave the game. Don’t feel it is a requirement to stay with a blob. Don’t fight a build that you do not have fun fighting regardless of the outcome.

If you are in category (5) which several people in this thread have mentioned, enjoy your time roaming. From what I have observed (again, recognizing that there are biases), many people have ended up in the first 4 categories and I would rather not see that happen.