Guild Wars 2

No offence, but if you cannot take a keep that is manned by 5 people, when you have a “zerg”, the fault is on you. All the upgrades do is cause more damage needed to take down a wall or gate.the time difference it takes is not game changing in any meaningful way.

As well, you can do the oasis event and take a T3 gat to 25%. You have to do a very very poor job to fail against 5 with a zerg, regardless of what tier a keep or tower is.

Then how about my proposal:
Auto upgrades for the own border and corner on EB, sped up with human interaction, no auto upgrades for enemy structures (or only slow auto upgrades, slower than on own objectives) more supply needed to upgrade. ETA: Sped up with human interaction as well but upgrading enemy structures will take a lot more effort than friendly structures.
Waypoints for everybody have to be earned again – so even in enemy structures there could be functional waypoints.

I’m still not that happy with human interaction = clicking “please upgrade” though. Often even that is hard to do alone, although I once brought our whole corner on EB to T2 on my own – it was papered soon afterwards.

This is what happens when players don’t play in a fair manner.
Kinda sounds like auto upgrades killed PVD, trolling and spies somewhat. That’s a good thing is it not?

coglin.1867:

No offence, but if you cannot take a keep that is manned by 5 people, when you have a “zerg”, the fault is on you. All the upgrades do is cause more damage needed to take down a wall or gate.the time difference it takes is not game changing in any meaningful way.

As well, you can do the oasis event and take a T3 gat to 25%. You have to do a very very poor job to fail against 5 with a zerg, regardless of what tier a keep or tower is.

For once you are right. The auto upgrades doesn’t make a big difference for zergs.

It does play a big part in the destruction of roaming though. Camps aren’t mandatory for upgrades so people aren’t in a rush to defend them, they just wait inside their towers and keeps for you to get bored and move on before coming out to back cap them.
No effort went into upgrading anything so people don’t care as much about defending. They will show up if they are close, but they rarely map hop or make the run to defend stuff if it’s far.
While zergs can still burn through T3 structures, it now takes at least 4 people to build 1 piece of sup siege, which means roamers are doing a lot of running for supply or spending 20-30 min per tower, longer for a keep.

And the sky splitter doesn’t take T3 gates to 25%. It needs to be fired 3 separate times to open T3 gates.

Jim Hunter.6821:

coglin.1867:

No offence, but if you cannot take a keep that is manned by 5 people, when you have a “zerg”, the fault is on you. All the upgrades do is cause more damage needed to take down a wall or gate.the time difference it takes is not game changing in any meaningful way.

As well, you can do the oasis event and take a T3 gat to 25%. You have to do a very very poor job to fail against 5 with a zerg, regardless of what tier a keep or tower is.

For once you are right. The auto upgrades doesn’t make a big difference for zergs.

Probably more often then not actually, but thanks for noticing.

Jim Hunter.6821:

It does play a big part in the destruction of roaming though. Camps aren’t mandatory for upgrades so people aren’t in a rush to defend them, they just wait inside their towers and keeps for you to get bored and move on before coming out to back cap them.

Nothing killed roaming, nor do I buy your claim here. “You” may be running off, or not defending them, but me and mine seem to. As we value having our upgrades done twice as fast as without the yaks.

Jim Hunter.6821:

No effort went into upgrading anything so people don’t care as much about defending. They will show up if they are close, but they rarely map hop or make the run to defend stuff if it’s far.

I don’t think you have a know what people do or do not care about. But you sure try hard to disingenuously claim to speak for them. Perhaps it would be best if you stick to speaking for yourself, and sharing your opinion, instead of claiming to say what everyone else is doing please. That might be better for everyone.

Jim Hunter.6821:

While zergs can still burn through T3 structures, it now takes at least 4 people to build 1 piece of sup siege, which means roamers are doing a lot of running for supply or spending 20-30 min per tower, longer for a keep.

Which adds more value to those who roam and take the effort to do so. Which in my opinion, contradicts your claims of it killing roaming.

Jim Hunter.6821:

And the sky splitter doesn’t take T3 gates to 25%. It needs to be fired 3 separate times to open T3 gates.

Well then, what does it take them down to, percentage wise?

Sky splitter gets t3 gates to 50% though

Offair.2563:

Sky splitter gets t3 gates to 50% though

More like 60%. I got off work early one morning and did the event at about 5am and then again at 8, the gates were still at about 20%.

coglin.1867:

Jim Hunter.6821:

coglin.1867:

No offence, but if you cannot take a keep that is manned by 5 people, when you have a “zerg”, the fault is on you. All the upgrades do is cause more damage needed to take down a wall or gate.the time difference it takes is not game changing in any meaningful way.

As well, you can do the oasis event and take a T3 gat to 25%. You have to do a very very poor job to fail against 5 with a zerg, regardless of what tier a keep or tower is.

For once you are right. The auto upgrades doesn’t make a big difference for zergs.

Probably more often then not actually, but thanks for noticing.

Jim Hunter.6821:

It does play a big part in the destruction of roaming though. Camps aren’t mandatory for upgrades so people aren’t in a rush to defend them, they just wait inside their towers and keeps for you to get bored and move on before coming out to back cap them.

Nothing killed roaming, nor do I buy your claim here. “You” may be running off, or not defending them, but me and mine seem to. As we value having our upgrades done twice as fast as without the yaks.

Jim Hunter.6821:

No effort went into upgrading anything so people don’t care as much about defending. They will show up if they are close, but they rarely map hop or make the run to defend stuff if it’s far.

I don’t think you have a know what people do or do not care about. But you sure try hard to disingenuously claim to speak for them. Perhaps it would be best if you stick to speaking for yourself, and sharing your opinion, instead of claiming to say what everyone else is doing please. That might be better for everyone.

Jim Hunter.6821:

While zergs can still burn through T3 structures, it now takes at least 4 people to build 1 piece of sup siege, which means roamers are doing a lot of running for supply or spending 20-30 min per tower, longer for a keep.

Which adds more value to those who roam and take the effort to do so. Which in my opinion, contradicts your claims of it killing roaming.

Jim Hunter.6821:

And the sky splitter doesn’t take T3 gates to 25%. It needs to be fired 3 separate times to open T3 gates.

Well then, what does it take them down to, percentage wise?

I’m speaking for myself, my friends/guildies/server mates that roam, and a ton of other roamers that have been posting the exact same thing on this forum and the unofficial one.

The only thing that needed changing about the upgrades was the gold cost. I said a long time ago that it should have been switched to karma or badges. I still believe that should be the case.

I will agree auto upgrades make roaming a lot harder. One thing that hasn’t been mentioned at all because it is so far away from most guilds and so dang expensive right now is tactics. Before HoT dropped and it was in beta and we found out cost of tactics, it was actually interesting in a tower or a camp cause we wanted to try the new tactics. Waiting in camps for a dune buggy or towers for a dragon banner. I wouldn’t mind auto-upgrades to stay the same way if tactics became attainable instead of bank breaking like rest of stuff.

At least on my server, we live in a “K-train versus Hardly Anybody on the Map” dynamic on the borderlands right now…

Old-Fashioned Upgrade Thinking in the Modern Era:
“Defending our T3 stuff is top priority.” When the K-train arrives, you start sieging up garrison, call all hands on deck, and stage an epic, long defense of your only truly defensible structure against such overwhelming numbers. Maybe you have a small group start back-capping, if you have anybody to spare. Your first priority is to hold your waypoint and your fortified garrison if at all possible. Losing it will be disastrous. After the K-train leaves, you look around and your map is completely reinforced or fortified against you. By the time you take back a couple upgraded things, the rest will definitely be fortified. Your tiny crew will have to work hard to take back an entire fortified map and it will take a long time.

Newfangled Upgrade Thinking in the Modern Era:
“Preventing them turning our map T3 is our top priority.” When the k-train arrives, prioritize the immediate reflipping of camps and sniping of yaks instead of defending your upgraded stuff. When the k-train leaves, you will look around and see most of your stuff still hasn’t reinforced and some stuff still isn’t even secured. It isn’t too hard to flip back paper stuff with a small, “hardly anybody on the map” crew. Since the enemy is gone, your supply lines flow freely and your stuff refortifies in 2 hours or less. Things get back to normal much easier, and much faster.

If only there were more people on the map, you could manage to put up a strong defense, hold your Garrison, AND slow down enemy upgrades… wouldn’t that be something… When people realize how the current system works and just how important the war for yaks is… people may change how they view the auto-upgrade system.

coolcat.4638:

One thing that hasn’t been mentioned at all because it is so far away from most guilds and so dang expensive right now is tactics. Before HoT dropped and it was in beta and we found out cost of tactics, it was actually interesting in a tower or a camp cause we wanted to try the new tactics. Waiting in camps for a dune buggy or towers for a dragon banner. I wouldn’t mind auto-upgrades to stay the same way if tactics became attainable instead of bank breaking like rest of stuff.

Tactics consumables are very expensive to craft. Crafting one instance of Sabotage Supply Depot requires 75 Flax Fibers + 1 Resonating Sliver. The material cost is over 5 gold per use.

That’s the lowest tier of consumable with a weak effect (denying supply at a captured objective).

Heimlich.3065:

coolcat.4638:

One thing that hasn’t been mentioned at all because it is so far away from most guilds and so dang expensive right now is tactics. Before HoT dropped and it was in beta and we found out cost of tactics, it was actually interesting in a tower or a camp cause we wanted to try the new tactics. Waiting in camps for a dune buggy or towers for a dragon banner. I wouldn’t mind auto-upgrades to stay the same way if tactics became attainable instead of bank breaking like rest of stuff.

Tactics consumables are very expensive to craft. Crafting one instance of Sabotage Supply Depot requires 75 Flax Fibers + 1 Resonating Sliver. The material cost is over 5 gold per use.

That’s the lowest tier of consumable with a weak effect (denying supply at a captured objective).

It is like they removed the need for manual upgrades and gave us tactics that need manual upgrade and then made them so hard to attain with need for auras and other stuff that nobody has even touched them and if a guild has, made one and said it’s not worth it at all for time being.

Heimlich.3065:

coolcat.4638:

One thing that hasn’t been mentioned at all because it is so far away from most guilds and so dang expensive right now is tactics. Before HoT dropped and it was in beta and we found out cost of tactics, it was actually interesting in a tower or a camp cause we wanted to try the new tactics. Waiting in camps for a dune buggy or towers for a dragon banner. I wouldn’t mind auto-upgrades to stay the same way if tactics became attainable instead of bank breaking like rest of stuff.

Tactics consumables are very expensive to craft. Crafting one instance of Sabotage Supply Depot requires 75 Flax Fibers + 1 Resonating Sliver. The material cost is over 5 gold per use.

That’s the lowest tier of consumable with a weak effect (denying supply at a captured objective).

I totally agree with the OP, there needs to be some manual aspect of upgrading. The current auto upgrades really destroys a key aspect of what was interesting in WvW prior to HoT.

And given the current state of things on the new borderlands maps, I am very nervous about what effects the “tactivators” are going to have… more gimmicks… not good.

Sich.7103:

the problem with the troll are the troll…. not the system…. Give tools to ban the troll… Or make guild alliance, and make the game guild vs guild… Then if you have troll in your team you can just kick it out… The problem in the server mode is that you can’t choose your ally, and then you have troll….
The previous upgrade system was very good, maybe except the gold cost (and this one never disturb me)… No need to destroy everything because anet is unable to ban troll / hacker (yes because we speak about troll, but what about the hacker who where never ban ?)

That the thing EVERYONE is a troll even ppl who do not mean to be. If your a new player you have no ideal what going on and to be able to chose an upgrade by any one is a significant cost of time for every one on the map. To keep it a chose of one person for a full world is a bad ideal. The auto upgrades you do lose a bit of personally and meaning to them but you stop making it a “dumb dictatorship” type of system.

Now there is nothing wrong with making the upgrade time longer and make the yacks more time reduction making yack def and ganking a lot more of a thing. But to go back to a single person chose type of system is not only a bad ideal but a dangerous one.

Jski.6180:

Sich.7103:

the problem with the troll are the troll…. not the system…. Give tools to ban the troll… Or make guild alliance, and make the game guild vs guild… Then if you have troll in your team you can just kick it out… The problem in the server mode is that you can’t choose your ally, and then you have troll….
The previous upgrade system was very good, maybe except the gold cost (and this one never disturb me)… No need to destroy everything because anet is unable to ban troll / hacker (yes because we speak about troll, but what about the hacker who where never ban ?)

That the thing EVERYONE is a troll even ppl who do not mean to be. If your a new player you have no ideal what going on and to be able to chose an upgrade by any one is a significant cost of time for every one on the map. To keep it a chose of one person for a full world is a bad ideal. The auto upgrades you do lose a bit of personally and meaning to them but you stop making it a “dumb dictatorship” type of system.

Now there is nothing wrong with making the upgrade time longer and make the yacks more time reduction making yack def and ganking a lot more of a thing. But to go back to a single person chose type of system is not only a bad ideal but a dangerous one.

I think what a lot of people are talking about is simply making the available upgrades require an actual person at the camp or tower to trigger then when they become available, if no one is there, then the progression stops until the available upgrade is triggered. So there aren’t any choices per say, but structures won’t just go to tier 3 just sitting there. I also would like to see the timers on upgrades be a bit longer than currently set.

Tspatula.9086:

Jski.6180:

Sich.7103:

the problem with the troll are the troll…. not the system…. Give tools to ban the troll… Or make guild alliance, and make the game guild vs guild… Then if you have troll in your team you can just kick it out… The problem in the server mode is that you can’t choose your ally, and then you have troll….
The previous upgrade system was very good, maybe except the gold cost (and this one never disturb me)… No need to destroy everything because anet is unable to ban troll / hacker (yes because we speak about troll, but what about the hacker who where never ban ?)

That the thing EVERYONE is a troll even ppl who do not mean to be. If your a new player you have no ideal what going on and to be able to chose an upgrade by any one is a significant cost of time for every one on the map. To keep it a chose of one person for a full world is a bad ideal. The auto upgrades you do lose a bit of personally and meaning to them but you stop making it a “dumb dictatorship” type of system.

Now there is nothing wrong with making the upgrade time longer and make the yacks more time reduction making yack def and ganking a lot more of a thing. But to go back to a single person chose type of system is not only a bad ideal but a dangerous one.

I think what a lot of people are talking about is simply making the available upgrades require an actual person at the camp or tower to trigger then when they become available, if no one is there, then the progression stops until the available upgrade is triggered. So there aren’t any choices per say, but structures won’t just go to tier 3 just sitting there. I also would like to see the timers on upgrades be a bit longer than currently set.

^^^ Exactly my point. (However, I knew you would get it )

Kitiara.2706:

^^^ Exactly my point. (However, I knew you would get it )

Who loves ya baby!! Also, please ANET devs for the love of all that is good, make sure if you place an NPC to talk to for triggering upgrades PLEASE put them right in front of the supply like the Alpine maps. I would hate the idea of being able to simply run up to the supply depot an easily get supply, I much prefer to have to run around the supply depot until my F key interacts with the supply and not the dumb NPC standing there…. nuff said.

Tspatula.9086:

Jski.6180:

Sich.7103:

the problem with the troll are the troll…. not the system…. Give tools to ban the troll… Or make guild alliance, and make the game guild vs guild… Then if you have troll in your team you can just kick it out… The problem in the server mode is that you can’t choose your ally, and then you have troll….
The previous upgrade system was very good, maybe except the gold cost (and this one never disturb me)… No need to destroy everything because anet is unable to ban troll / hacker (yes because we speak about troll, but what about the hacker who where never ban ?)

That the thing EVERYONE is a troll even ppl who do not mean to be. If your a new player you have no ideal what going on and to be able to chose an upgrade by any one is a significant cost of time for every one on the map. To keep it a chose of one person for a full world is a bad ideal. The auto upgrades you do lose a bit of personally and meaning to them but you stop making it a “dumb dictatorship” type of system.

Now there is nothing wrong with making the upgrade time longer and make the yacks more time reduction making yack def and ganking a lot more of a thing. But to go back to a single person chose type of system is not only a bad ideal but a dangerous one.

I think what a lot of people are talking about is simply making the available upgrades require an actual person at the camp or tower to trigger then when they become available, if no one is there, then the progression stops until the available upgrade is triggered. So there aren’t any choices per say, but structures won’t just go to tier 3 just sitting there. I also would like to see the timers on upgrades be a bit longer than currently set.

I disagree. They absolutely should go to T3 just sitting there, but only if they keep getting supplies from yaks to do so

Remove the timer. Turn it in to a “Supplies Delivered” bar that only goes up when yaks drop off successfully.

Having stuff not upgrade when literally nobody has made so much as a halfhearted attempt to keep it from happenning is dumb.

As it is now you can’t send a havok group to cut off yak runs to an objective to prevent it from upgrading. you just slow it down a little. yaks are completely useless for this reason, and that combined with all the upgraded stuff only encourages more zerging and less tactical play and force splits.

If you are cutting off supplies to an objective, that objective shouldn’t get upgraded. period.

If you can not get yaks through you shouldn’t be able to run a train of 50 people from a supply camp to get it upgraded either. players supply runs should only be applicable to repairs and siege. Yak supply runs should be required to upgrade objectives except for camps. Camps should require killable NPCs for upgrades.

Offair.2563:

Auto upgrades will just encourage lazy play. Right now its “cap and leave, it will upgrade anyway”. In the past enemies tried to upgrade keeps/towers in our home borderland but to do so they needed to stay and do it. A nice perspective for home border defenders to go there as they know theres something to fight there.

No pain no gain.

This is pretty spot on I’m already seeing attitudes change and defence suffer because forces can just leave entirely in the knowledge that it will upgrade. It doesn’t encourage literal k training but it encourages groups to leave to PvD other objectives rather than stay and fight. If the tower or keep is attacked the attitude is becoming let them take it we can take it back afterward and just let it upgrade again.

Jim Hunter.6821:

snip

Jim I have been doing this so many times now that I know this for a fact:

T3 tower can be taken in under 15 mins by 3 people
T3 tower can be taken in under 10 mins by 5 people
T3 keep can be taken in under 25 mins by 5 people
T3 keep can be taken in under 40 mins by 3 people

This of course includes running for supply to the nearest camp

If your people are truly roamers why are they so reluctant to run to the camp and get supply? I would’ve thought the possibility of running into an enemy on the way there and back would be something that they would like?

Do Auto Upgrades increase the amount of time needed to take an objective? Yes it does because now you’re not always going to run into nothing but paper objectives. And I see that as a good thing. The longer it takes for you to break through an objective, the higher likelihood that a defender will show up and you get some fights. The longer it takes for an enemy to take your objective the higher the chance for you to make it there on time to fight them off.

This has been said before by somebody else and I am echoing them because I agree with them. In the old system, if I see white swords on the other side of the map I think “That’s a paper objective, it’s probably lost already”. Under the new system I can click on the objective on my map and see what upgrades it has. Quite often it’s either secured or reinforced and I think “I may still be able to save that, gotta quickly rush over there”.

I do support the removal of WPs from T0 objectives and I think changing the auto upgrades to remove the timer and have it rely solely on dolyaks is something that could also work. But some of the other complaints people have are silly and uses made up exaggerated numbers. Like the people who say “It takes 20 mins to run to a tower” It really doesn’t. I’ve had to run from spawn to the opposite corner’s tower before and it was under 5 mins on a necro with no movement skills.