Guild Wars 2

…putting the washing on the line and no degen?! But the “degen is crazy, revert now” people said it was really bad. How can this be?

Bc you were afk. If you had spent that ten minutes running yaks, you would have seen decay. See the problem . . ?

Perhaps you killed a player granting you 10min of no decay. People just over react about it. Been roaming as i always do and even checked participation and it never went down even when i afk at times.

Given how different the reports are, I suspect it’s behaving differently for different people.

Sarika.3756:

Given how different the reports are, I suspect it’s behaving differently for different people.

I assume the people that struggle with it are pve players not knowing what they can achiev without a tag spoonfed them.

Offair.2563:

Sarika.3756:

Given how different the reports are, I suspect it’s behaving differently for different people.

I assume the people that struggle with it are pve players not knowing what they can achiev without a tag spoonfed them.

You would be wrong about that.

I doubt that it is behaving differently for different ppl, it’s more likely that ppl are engaging in different activities. Zerglings, roamers and afkers shouldn’t really be noticing much difference, while scouts are . . .

I have posted in other threads that the change since the patch is significantly noticeable under certain circumstances. In general, these aren’t circumstances that impact me. But they legitimately impact a number of players and certain legitimate play styles.

I’ve tested it intentionally to try to understand the impact, and since there are a number of people claiming that “no one who legit plays should notice a difference”, I can only conclude that they must be seeing different behavior than I am.

Note: in general, I don’t have any issues maintaining participation under the new system. I still think it’s gone too far.

Lahmia.2193:

…putting the washing on the line and no degen?! But the “degen is crazy, revert now” people said it was really bad. How can this be?

Same. Did it again yesterday and I was not part of any squad or group. I was sure I would be out, but no.

Maybe I have a VIP account…

Sarika.3756:

I have posted in other threads that the change since the patch is significantly noticeable under certain circumstances. In general, these aren’t circumstances that impact me. But they legitimately impact a number of players and certain legitimate play styles.

I’ve tested it intentionally to try to understand the impact, and since there are a number of people claiming that “no one who legit plays should notice a difference”, I can only conclude that they must be seeing different behavior than I am.

I think it’s more likely that it’s just different ppl calling the same activity by different names . . .

To me, roaming necessarily involves capping objectives and fighting players. If there aren’t objectives to cap or players to fight, at that point I’m no longer roaming, I’m scouting. Similarly, to me afk farming necessarily involves being afk, meaning do the thing that gives you the decay timer, go back to spawn until the timer is up and don’t do anything else until you need to refresh your timer again . . .

So when I see someone post ‘I can’t maintain participation roaming’ or ‘only afkers are having trouble with decay’ I don’t think that means there are ppl capping an objective and getting less than a ten minute timer or running a yak and getting more than two minutes, I think it’s more likely those ppl are describing activity that I call scouting but instead calling it either roaming or being afk . . .

Ofc if they fix the timers it won’t matter what ppl call it . . .

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Lahmia.2193:

…putting the washing on the line and no degen?! But the “degen is crazy, revert now” people said it was really bad. How can this be?

Same. Did it again yesterday and I was not part of any squad or group. I was sure I would be out, but no.

Maybe I have a VIP account…

It’s more likely just a misunderstanding on your part of how the system works

Go run a treb for 10 minutes. Then take 10 minutes to hang your laundry.

Let us know how it works out.

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

Go run a treb for 10 minutes. Then take 10 minutes to hang your laundry.

Let us know how it works out.

I actually did just that at one point… and I still never lost anything…

There is definitely something that escapes me here…

No you did not. Not since the change anyway.

When you’re running a treb your countdown timer ticks until it becomes visible, and then each shot resets your timer to 1 minute. Go ahead, walk away from your treb after that. Your participation gets flushed.

If you kill a player using a treb, it resets you to 10 minutes I guess.

Those 10 minutes are fine. To me, issue is that small things (like dollies, sentries, monuments/ruins…) may not always provide enough time to find a bigger thing to do. The sad part is those “small thing” aren’t useless, so why not doing them ? and there’re plenty of situations when you only have those to do at hand.

http://imgur.com/rr3Z9cJ

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

No you did not. Not since the change anyway.

When you’re running a treb your countdown timer ticks until it becomes visible, and then each shot resets your timer to 1 minute. Go ahead, walk away from your treb after that. Your participation gets flushed.

Except I did…

but, maybe, like the other person said, I did happenedd to kill something or someone while trebbing. That I can’t remember.

However, I was never even close, EVER, to my participation getting flushed. I never played in a hurry scared to loose participation and I played as much solo, scout or zerg as I wanted, the way I wanted.

I’m not saying there are no problems. I’m saying I never saw one so far. Hence, why I joke about my account being VIP.

Gop.8713:

I doubt that it is behaving differently for different ppl, it’s more likely that ppl are engaging in different activities. Zerglings, roamers and afkers shouldn’t really be noticing much difference, while scouts are . . .

“Scouts” are fine. If you want to semi-AFK in one place, without running around close to the objective killing a guard, sentry, recapping a camp or shrine/ruins…then you can ask if there is a tag (On any WvW map, mind you) if they can share participation with you.

You will still get shared participation even if the rest of your squad is in a different map, heck, you’ll even get participation if the rest of your squad is on a different server.

But I don’t want shared participation. To me that’s basically cheating. It’s taking credit for someone else’s work. It also risks the implication that scouting requires review and approval of a zerg in order to qualify as activity, which is a little insulting. Why not just give scouts credit for their own activity? Or at least allow them the option . . .

I also don’t understand why ppl keep mentioning afking and scouting together as if they were somehow related. You can’t scout and be afk at the same time, or at least you shouldn’t be able to. That’s another problem with shared participation actually, it encourages afkers . . .

Gop.8713:

But I don’t want shared participation. To me that’s basically cheating. It’s taking credit for someone else’s work. It also risks the implication that scouting requires review and approval of a zerg in order to qualify as activity, which is a little insulting. Why not just give scouts credit for their own activity? Or at least allow them the option . . .

I also don’t understand why ppl keep mentioning afking and scouting together as if they were somehow related. You can’t scout and be afk at the same time, or at least you shouldn’t be able to. That’s another problem with shared participation actually, it encourages afkers . . .

And how would you do that? How are they going to differentiate, code wise, who is scouting and who is just wandering around at keep, doing nothing?

I do get decay regularly and it’s not like I’m “scouting the ruins”.

I use the trebs against SM walls regularly (1 minute). Ok, the wall goes down! (woohoo, 5 minutes!). Aim for the next wall section.(1 minute again)

I kill yaks so those walls can’t be repaired.(2 minutes).

Our nearest camp just flipped? I run out to get our last yak in.(2 minutes).

Go get that camp back. Oh yeah, Righteous Indignation. Wait. Flush participation until you can get that camp back.(woohoo! 5 minutes). Back to the treb.(1 minute again).

All of these are valuable roaming, scouting jobs that need to be done and by doing them I’m pretty much constantly on the edge of flushing my participation until I come to the point where I’ve actually got the SM walls down and our EB corner under control. Then my participation really does flush.

I might as well go to the bathroom and flush some more!

With siege, does the timer reset at target destruction or hit? Haven’t really check this yet. If its a lower timer on hit than that makes sense that it shouldn’t be high since you might not be firing for effect anyway and its really easy for people to spoof the system with a keyboard macro and walk away, so you want that really low. Else we would end up with a bunch of afkers on siege firing non stop but not really there. If its on destruction and target hasn’t changed then yeah you are wasting time shooting at a target that’s not there so you are not contributing.

Do a mix of roaming, group, zerg surf, and active scouting. Haven’t seen an issue with decay unless just sitting in an objective, which even if you are reporting movement you really aren’t doing anything that swords on the map wouldn’t have already warned about to one level of degree or another except provide more detail. Active roamers should already be taking a peek anyway when that occurs. I can see the decay when first starting out in a WvW session but once you get going its a non issue unless you then afk for 5 mins, which then you will have to rebuild your contribution. Wasn’t seeing the hordes of AFKers previously but am also not seeing an issue with the decays, we either need to let them fine tune, players need adjust their play style or figure out if people want more afkers or shorter decays. I still like the new system and its adds more fun into a mode that was already fun to play but now its less of gold sink then it was.

Roaming/scouting makes it a bit harder to maintain, especially if there isn’t much going on. My teffer feels it.

why do so many wvwers, especially vets have such hatred for players who pve? Don’t you realize that half of wvw is pve? Hilarious lol. Also I tend to find pvers in general understand mechanics better then wvwers, because, all they play against is AI and mechanics.

getting 10 min of afk time is only achievable after killing an enemy player, capturing a structure or defending a structure. Anything else and you would hit massive decay before your laundry was finished.

TheGrimm.5624:

With siege, does the timer reset at target destruction or hit? Haven’t really check this yet. If its a lower timer on hit than that makes sense that it shouldn’t be high since you might not be firing for effect anyway and its really easy for people to spoof the system with a keyboard macro and walk away, so you want that really low. Else we would end up with a bunch of afkers on siege firing non stop but not really there. If its on destruction and target hasn’t changed then yeah you are wasting time shooting at a target that’s not there so you are not contributing.

Do a mix of roaming, group, zerg surf, and active scouting. Haven’t seen an issue with decay unless just sitting in an objective, which even if you are reporting movement you really aren’t doing anything that swords on the map wouldn’t have already warned about to one level of degree or another except provide more detail. Active roamers should already be taking a peek anyway when that occurs. I can see the decay when first starting out in a WvW session but once you get going its a non issue unless you then afk for 5 mins, which then you will have to rebuild your contribution. Wasn’t seeing the hordes of AFKers previously but am also not seeing an issue with the decays, we either need to let them fine tune, players need adjust their play style or figure out if people want more afkers or shorter decays. I still like the new system and its adds more fun into a mode that was already fun to play but now its less of gold sink then it was.

Siege hits add 1% to the bar.

I have a novel idea! Are you ready for this life altering idea! How about people just stay active while in WvW? Then nobody needs to worry about decay…

I realize RL comes first!!!! But do not expect to have rewards for doing so. That is not how this is designed to work.

Everyone keeps referring to flushing participation. Once you reach Tier 5/6 it takes a LONG time for participation to decay, like 5-10 minutes so if you take or defend ANY objective that’s like 15-20 mins of time where you need to do nothing.

Once you hit Tier 3, then yes it goes pretty fast, but if you don’t sit on your butt for more than 10 minutes it’s trivial to maintain tier 5/6.

Getting to Tier 4/5/6 is a little challenging sometimes if your alone and on a map with gank groups prowling spawn, camps and sentries.

10 minutes?! I bet you only single pegged your panties.

Mrs Qurly.9372:

10 minutes?! I bet you only single pegged your panties.

And single pegged socks together.

Lahmia.2193:

And how would you do that? How are they going to differentiate, code wise, who is scouting and who is just wandering around at keep, doing nothing?

The same way it is done now . . .

At first I thought your op was just a little tongue in cheek jab at the active players who have been negatively impacted by the change to the decay timer, which is fine, there are spiteful ppl everywhere and if it bothered me that much I wouldn’t be playing an mmo. But coupled with this comment, it is clear that you have not read enough of the posts on the issue to actually understand it . . .

I am not complaining that you haven’t done that. If the issue wasn’t affecting me, I wouldn’t have read all that crap either. I’m just saying if you’re not willing to take the time to understand the problem, your perspective is going to be of limited use to the ppl trying to solve it . . .

Siege hits add 1% to the bar.

And this proves that you’re not alone, Lahmia

Offair, what we are discussing is the effect activity has on the decay timer, not the effect it has on increasing the participation bar . . .

How about people just stay active while in WvW? Then nobody needs to worry about decay…

And here we have another candidate. Active ppl who are experiencing decay is literally the entire issue. It’s the only thing being discussed lol . . .

Gop.8713:

Lahmia.2193:

And how would you do that? How are they going to differentiate, code wise, who is scouting and who is just wandering around at keep, doing nothing?

The same way it is done now . . .

At first I thought your op was just a little tongue in cheek jab at the active players who have been negatively impacted by the change to the decay timer, which is fine, there are spiteful ppl everywhere and if it bothered me that much I wouldn’t be playing an mmo. But coupled with this comment, it is clear that you have not read enough of the posts on the issue to actually understand it . . .

I am not complaining that you haven’t done that. If the issue wasn’t affecting me, I wouldn’t have read all that crap either. I’m just saying if you’re not willing to take the time to understand the problem, your perspective is going to be of limited use to the ppl trying to solve it . . .

Siege hits add 1% to the bar.

And this proves that you’re not alone, Lahmia

Offair, what we are discussing is the effect activity has on the decay timer, not the effect it has on increasing the participation bar . . .

How about people just stay active while in WvW? Then nobody needs to worry about decay…

And here we have another candidate. Active ppl who are experiencing decay is literally the entire issue. It’s the only thing being discussed lol . . .

I did read your original comment and it seems like you’re just unwilling to take advantage of a system that was deliberately put in place for scouts.

As for giving scouts credit for their activity. How would you go about this? Reward stems from either capping or defending objectives, killing guards, doing damage to structures etc. If a scout does none of these things how else will the game be able to measure their input and differentiate them from people dossing around looking to get easy skirmish rewards? The best way is already in place as I have said.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Maybe I have a VIP account…

I’m stealing that and (falsely) using that as an excuse in /m chat now when people complain about the “fast” participation degen. They should have just purchased the VIP account!

:)

Lahmia.2193:

Gop.8713:

But I don’t want shared participation. To me that’s basically cheating. It’s taking credit for someone else’s work. It also risks the implication that scouting requires review and approval of a zerg in order to qualify as activity, which is a little insulting. Why not just give scouts credit for their own activity? Or at least allow them the option . . .

I also don’t understand why ppl keep mentioning afking and scouting together as if they were somehow related. You can’t scout and be afk at the same time, or at least you shouldn’t be able to. That’s another problem with shared participation actually, it encourages afkers . . .

And how would you do that? How are they going to differentiate, code wise, who is scouting and who is just wandering around at keep, doing nothing?

I think there’s a lack of understanding among many people of what “scouting” entails. Babysitting a structure is only a small part of it. You do that sometimes when there is a large enemy presence on the map and your Spidey Sense gets all a tingle. Mostly nothing happens.

The bulk of scouting is much the same as “roaming” while avoiding small fights unless it’s for a camp.

Sometimes a few of you will team up to take/defend a tower when your main force is elsewhere and, when it seems safe to do so, you might join said force to defend/cap a keep.

Participation is only tricky if the map is fairly dead. Otherwise it’s not too bad. I’d like to see 10 secs for refreshing siege and maybe gold, silver and bronze yak escorts at say 4, 2 and 1 min.

Lahmia.2193

I did read your original comment and it seems like you’re just unwilling to take advantage of a system that was deliberately put in place for scouts.

As for giving scouts credit for their activity. How would you go about this? Reward stems from either capping or defending objectives, killing guards, doing damage to structures etc. If a scout does none of these things how else will the game be able to measure their input and differentiate them from people dossing around looking to get easy skirmish rewards? The best way is already in place as I have said.

If you have read my posts why do your replies continue as if you haven’t . . ?

You’ve asked twice now how scouts could be credited for their activity, but scouts are now and always have been credited for their activity. The only thing that changed with this updated is the decay timer, which governs not how credit is awarded, but the degree of that credit. So the problem the update created is not that there is now no way to credit scouting activity, it is that the credit given is now insufficient to maintain participation . . .

So rather than ask how a scout could be credited, answer why the scout should not be credited. That is the question that needs to be answered to justify this update . . .

gitflap.9031:

Participation is only tricky if the map is fairly dead. Otherwise it’s not too bad. I’d like to see 10 secs for refreshing siege and maybe gold, silver and bronze yak escorts at say 4, 2 and 1 min.

Fixing the yaks really fixes everything. I see your point on refreshing siege bc that can be time consuming in some circumstances, but it only has to be done once an hour. So you can choose to refresh at a time that is convenient for your decay, like right after you kill a roamer or recap one of the camps that is feeding your objective . . .

But with running yaks not only do you need each successful run to give you time to complete another run, but it is frequently a job that you do for more than ten minutes so any decay buffer you may have had when you started will be gone when circumstances force you to break off and perform another task . . .

I don’t really like the idea of varying the decay timer based on the tier of medal rewarded bc afaik the tier of medal is based on how far you run along with the yak while the actual benefit of the yak running is tied to how quickly you speed the yak along. So once the yak has enough swiftness to reach the objective you’re better off heading back to guard the camp until the next yak spawns . . .

Gop.8713:

Lahmia.2193

I did read your original comment and it seems like you’re just unwilling to take advantage of a system that was deliberately put in place for scouts.

As for giving scouts credit for their activity. How would you go about this? Reward stems from either capping or defending objectives, killing guards, doing damage to structures etc. If a scout does none of these things how else will the game be able to measure their input and differentiate them from people dossing around looking to get easy skirmish rewards? The best way is already in place as I have said.

If you have read my posts why do your replies continue as if you haven’t . . ?

You’ve asked twice now how scouts could be credited for their activity, but scouts are now and always have been credited for their activity. The only thing that changed with this updated is the decay timer, which governs not how credit is awarded, but the degree of that credit. So the problem the update created is not that there is now no way to credit scouting activity, it is that the credit given is now insufficient to maintain participation . . .

So rather than ask how a scout could be credited, answer why the scout should not be credited. That is the question that needs to be answered to justify this update . . .

And yet you still ignore the already existing Shared Participation. If you’re scouting it means that you’re not in a dead timezone, else there’d be no point and you’d just roam instead. That means chances are there will be a commander online leading, who you can then scout for and gain SP from.

Lahmia.2193:

And yet you still ignore the already existing Shared Participation. If you’re scouting it means that you’re not in a dead timezone, else there’d be no point and you’d just roam instead. That means chances are there will be a commander online leading, who you can then scout for and gain SP from.

Don’t forget that you don’t even have to be in the same map as the commander/squad to continue gaining shared participation!

Offair.2563:

Sarika.3756:

Given how different the reports are, I suspect it’s behaving differently for different people.

I assume the people that struggle with it are pve players not knowing what they can achiev without a tag spoonfed them.

Lahmia.2193:

And yet you still ignore the already existing Shared Participation. If you’re scouting it means that you’re not in a dead timezone, else there’d be no point and you’d just roam instead. That means chances are there will be a commander online leading, who you can then scout for and gain SP from.

Should I interpret your continued refusal to address the point as a concession . . ?

seabhac.5346:

Offair.2563:

Sarika.3756:

Given how different the reports are, I suspect it’s behaving differently for different people.

I assume the people that struggle with it are pve players not knowing what they can achiev without a tag spoonfed them.

I don’t think this is really fair either though. Players that accept shared participation would likely prefer to be running with the zerg and getting their own rewards, it’s just that someone has to stay back with a capped objective sometimes and there isn’t always someone who wants to. I don’t think it’s accurate to say that those players who stay back and accept shared participation are being ‘spoonfed’ . . .

But otoh shared participation shouldn’t be required as the only way that an active scout can avoid decay either . . .

The reset times are as follows:
• Killing a Player – 10 minutes
• Killing a Caravan – 2 minutes
• Destroying a fortification – 5 minutes
• Killing a Guard – 2 minutes
• Killing a Lord – 5 minutes
• Killing or reviving a merc npc – 1 minute
• Repairing – 5 minutes
• Siege Damage Wall/Gate/Player – 1 minute
• Destroying Siege – 5 minute
• Killing a Veteran Creature – 5 minutes

These happen on event completion:
• Defending a Caravan – 2 minutes
• Completing a Merc Event – 5 minutes
• Completing a Defend Event – 10 minutes
• Capturing an objective – 10 minutes
• Capturing a Ruin or Shrine – 2 minutes
• Capturing a Sentry – 5 minutes

That is correct . . .