Reposting my comment from “that other forum” that essentially sums up what I think of the majority of the “constructive feedback” scattered across threads in this forum.
All those suggestions are not going to suddenly convert “fights guilds” into PPTers nor the casual PvXer into performing a long siege nor a roamer into a camp flipping yak skinner.
WvW went from a majority of players playing the siege warfare PPT game as intended to a majority of players casually looking for a large fight.
Ask yourself, why did WvW evolve that way?
1 – the GW2 combat system is fun
2 – there was never a real point to winning a WvW match. The Power of the Mists is a hidden and meaningless mechanic. Players barely understand what the bonus chests are from or even care about them.
3 – the base WvW mechanic is all played out
“True” GvG came out of the desire for large scale sPvP and IMO is a constructive part of WvW as GvG groups often create the tactics and builds later replicated by zergs albiet in a much sloppier implementaion.
Before HoT, even hard-core GvG groups would go out of their way to defend a WP since it meant easier map traversal and a good fight most of the time. Sure that got nuked with the WP changes in HoT but it does show that so long as there is an area worth holding players will fight over it no matter their fighting style preference.
Alliances (depending on their form) are just like servers only more manageable. It isn’t a silver bullet but it can be a big leap forward in improving the current WvW situation which is typically too much PvD and enormous population imbalance issues.
Before HoT, even hard-core GvG groups would go out of their way to defend a WP since it meant easier map traversal and a good fight most of the time.
Let’s not put on rose-tinted glasses in this thread. I’m not saying there haven’t been instances of what you describe, but there have also been instances of GvG groups “going out of their way” to siege troll their own waypoints.
In this thread I’m more interested in the idea that the base WvW mechanics are a game type that not many players are looking to play anymore. People can re-engineer a map or call for alliances all they want, it isn’t going to change the state of WvW much. An alliance of 300 fights players going to perform a long siege and run yaks? Yea… LOL.
Team Deathmatch Alliance when
Team Deathmatch Alliance when
Haha exactly!
People can re-engineer a map or call for alliances all they want, it isn’t going to change the state of WvW much. An alliance of 300 fights players going to perform a long siege and run yaks? Yea… LOL.
I think it depends very much on how the scoring changes, the implementation of tournaments and the changes in the reward structures. If holding assets determines guild status and perks, then guilds will form around holding and defending structures. If the rewards remain around flipping structures, guilds will continue to do that.
Right now there are no compelling reasons to fight for anything so most of WvW has devolved into players fighting arbitrarily. Prior to HoT almost all organized WvW fights were either the ever-dying GvG scene or over a WP. Even repping in WvW is now pointless. Almost any change in WvW at this point would be a step forward IMO.
People can re-engineer a map or call for alliances all they want, it isn’t going to change the state of WvW much. An alliance of 300 fights players going to perform a long siege and run yaks? Yea… LOL.
I think it depends very much on how the scoring changes, the implementation of tournaments and the changes in the reward structures. If holding assets determines guild status and perks, then guilds will form around holding and defending structures. If the rewards remain around flipping structures, guilds will continue to do that.
Right now there are no compelling reasons to fight for anything so most of WvW has devolved into players fighting arbitrarily. Prior to HoT almost all organized WvW fights were either the ever-dying GvG scene or over a WP. Even repping in WvW is now pointless. Almost any change in WvW at this point would be a step forward IMO.
Yeah this is kind of what I think, the mode is dying. But I do think they have to find a solution which maintains the communities players that are left have built up and also encourages the different play styles of the players (and there are several different styles). The thread from Fozzik is really good IMO in terms of articulating the issues.
I think it depends very much on how the scoring changes, the implementation of tournaments and the changes in the reward structures.
….
Right now there are no compelling reasons to fight for anything so most of WvW has devolved into players fighting arbitrarily.
Yes, basically. Like I wrote in OP, ask why WvW evolved the way it did. The answers reveal where the flaws are.
Yeah this is kind of what I think, the mode is dying. But I do think they have to find a solution which maintains the communities players that are left have built up and also encourages the different play styles of the players (and there are several different styles). The thread from Fozzik is really good IMO in terms of articulating the issues.
It may be myopic on my part but I think server community is vastly overrated. When a server is doing well in a match, players show up and contribute. When it is getting run over, players leave.
The exception to this is when a popular guild comes onto a losing map. This can breath life into a fight but we are back to a “server” deriving its identity from guilds.
I know what I like and that is fun fights. Fights that aren’t so lopsided the other side can just roll over their enemies with impunity. Any system that can create additional balanced fights, will easily have me and most players logging in for more.
I think it evolved the way it did because of population disparity.
Initially it was all about king of the heap. After massive stacking (which happened on EU too), most people said “Eh f-it, let’s just play for fights since we cannot possibly win against such an endless supply of bodies.” It became an impossibility of ousting an existing super-stacked server, so players adapted.
I think that release of king of the heap mentality as the coveted status actually improved gameplay — at least it helped in EU, where guilds wound up clueing in and destacking to multiple servers to get the fights.
It morphed from there into a quasi-defense-server-pride thing, where a small group of people who weren’t necessarily ppt-minded, but liked defense tactics in game, sort of merged with existing fight guilds to find a nice symbiosis.
Out of that all, a distinct server community/identity emerged.
Heck, I like this alliance idea, even if it is exactly as advertised, but perhaps more than 3 guilds per alliance. some people are saying that 300 active players is not enough to fill the maps, but that is 75 players per map, 3 alliances so 225 people per map fighting which is very close to the current set up. The new borderlands would be fine with 75v75v75, now its normally 10v20v75 or 10v0v2. Looks like there will be a reward track so a reason to try to do well, and some sort of ladder for the king of the hill types. WvW is so stagnant now, even servers that move up or down end up losing players in search of something better. If this comes to be, it will reinvigorate WvW and guilds as well. I am going to remain hopeful for a day or so, until I sink back into the pit of dispair that is current WvW and HoT with maps like TD….
It’s all boils down to motivation. With every aspect of WvW, the question “why am I doing this?” needs to be asked.
If things are set up properly, then the conversation would be “Why am I defending this tower?” Because it helps protect our keep. “Why is the keep important?” Because we can get a waypoint in it, that we can use to get closer to where the fighting is. “Ok, cool.” All good.
Right now, it’s “Why am I defending this tower?” Uh….. 10 points… “What do points give us?” We win the match. “What do we get for winning the match?” Uh….. nuthin’…. “So…. everything is entirely irrelevant…?” Yeah….. pretty much…. “Well…. screw that, let’s just go have fun in any way we can.”
Right now, everything about WvW is built on a house of cards that collapses under even minor examination. There’s no motivation to own any of the areas. There’s no motivation to protect any of the areas. There’s no motivation for trying to win the matchup. The only form of motivation is community driven in a “Well, I like these guys, so I’m gonna try to do my best for them” way. The only motivation from the game itself is motivation to run karma trains for loot. Which actually strips away motivation to play to win, because defenders just slow the karma train down and make things harder.
If they fix the maps, properly, the areas themselves will provide the motivation to hold and defend them. If they fix the way matches are calculated, and the rewards for winning matches, that will provide motivation to try to win the matches. Though I should note, the rewards for winning the matches doesn’t necessarily need to come in the form of loot. Though more loot definitely is something needed in WvW. However, early on, before glicko had settled into the rut it’s been in, servers were able to climb the ranks based on how well they did. So that was a form of motivation in itself. Right now, servers are pretty much locked into their matches, barring implosions, and no matter what the result of one match is, it’s just going to be yet another rematch next week. Everyone knows who’s going to win long before the match even starts, and there’s not really anything any of the players involved can do about it.
However, the only ways to address the population imbalances is to either somehow get everyone to agree to spread out, server merges, or a megaserver/alliance system. A megaserver system will remove the community element from the game, so that takes away the only source of motivation people have for bothering to play hard in stale matchups and attack/defend irrelevant areas for PPT. An alliance system screws over smaller guilds and unguilded players, and eventually leads to guild decay and even guild cannibalism. People have proven they’d rather stack onto the top servers than spread out to the lower ranked ones, for various reasons. Some prefer bigger fights, some prefer bigger rewards (from loot from more players), some just prefer being around more people. The only possible resolution would be server merges, but those need to be handled extremely carefully. They needed to be announced a few months ahead of time. Those on the servers being removed need to be given free transfers to a server of their choosing. The direction of the servers people will be moving to need to be established. Some will want to remain small, while others will want to grow. Some people will want to stay on a smaller server, while others will wand to go to larger ones. Some will want to be competitive, while others will want things casual. Then there’s the overall atmosphere of the servers as well. Some will run a tight ship, others will want to be as friendly as possible, and others will want to just sorta…… screw with people. People will need to be able to make educated decisions, so that they know it’s the right one the first time. It would be a hard process, but it would be the only one that doesn’t cut out the heart of WvW itself. However, the off peak coverage would still be an issue. Most of that is concentrated into the upper tiers, though, simply because that’s where those players have the best chance of finding fights. That, however, can be mitigated by changing the scoring system itself. 5 points for successfully capturing an area, 10 points for successfully defending, 1 point per kill, might work, but I’m just spitballing that concept off the top of my head.
So…. the reason WvW evolved the way it did was because at every level, it was inevitable due to the built in motivations, or lack thereof. But if those motivations were changed, and missing ones added in, WvW could evolve into a much healthier place. But one step quick fixes aren’t the solution. It would need to be several smaller steps over an overall gradual process.
WvW went from a majority of players playing the siege warfare PPT game as intended to a majority of players casually looking for a large fight.
Ask yourself, why did WvW evolve that way?
As others above have also stated well, it’s true that population imbalances weren’t the only reason why WvW evolved this way. Indeed, alliances, or whatever fix for population balance they implement, are not a silver bullet. But they are still a necessary piece of the solution. The other pieces are scoring-related and rewards-related, and I think Anet have made it clear that they understand this. The “fix” for WvW is going to require all three components in tandem; any one component on its own will be wholly inadequate.
The “fix” for WvW is going to require all three components in tandem; any one component on its own will be wholly inadequate.
I agree.
What I’ve noticed simply is a cry for something, maps and such, that cater to what WvW has “devolved” into. The biggest thing they have to implement is a reason why to win a WvW match.
(edited by Chaba.5410)
I’m not really interested is catering to “fight guilds”
They aren’t WvW guilds. They’ve co-opted WvW for a self invented game type because the game (foolishly) still hasn’t catered to large scale TDM, literally one of the easiest game types to track and code.
I’m interested in WvW actually awarding and incentivizing players to play like they’re trying to win WvW.
The game only ever did that at alunch, when pve server buffs were a thing.
A criminal lack of design attention or ability from the WvW team created what we have now. A WvW where people are more interesting in bashing each other in the face in the middle of a field than trying to take or defend objectives or utilize/defend siege.
Updates to the reward system were always aimed at the wrong targets. They were always aimed at rewarding people for taking objectives and killing each other, but the basic DNA of WvW is about neither one of those things. It is about owning objectives as a team
Until WvW hands out rewards strictly on the basis of how well the team as a whole is doing, its going to continue to be broken.
Its not the new maps. The new maps are actually fun. The problem is that people don’t want to play in them because they’re built for WvW siege play in stead of being built for random kitten roaming and quick flipping.
I’d be extremely happy to see all of the people that just want “big fights” to go to EOTM where the score doesn’t matter and there’s no meaningful objective. I’d be happy to see the stupidity of “server teams” killed in favor of randomly selected teams per season for every guild to ensure more stable and even populations.
WvW is a massive and highly objective based mode. Its reward system and the server transfer model does not reflect that, and it should. If it did, more people would actually go to WvW to play WvW.
Fix the personal rewards to match the team oriented gametype and wvw will start to fix itself.
I’m not really interested is catering to “fight guilds”
They aren’t WvW guilds. They’ve co-opted WvW for a self invented game type because the game (foolishly) still hasn’t catered to large scale TDM, literally one of the easiest game types to track and code.
I’m interested in WvW actually awarding and incentivizing players to play like they’re trying to win WvW.
The game only ever did that at alunch, when pve server buffs were a thing.
A criminal lack of design attention or ability from the WvW team created what we have now. A WvW where people are more interesting in bashing each other in the face in the middle of a field than trying to take or defend objectives or utilize/defend siege.
Updates to the reward system were always aimed at the wrong targets. They were always aimed at rewarding people for taking objectives and killing each other, but the basic DNA of WvW is about neither one of those things. It is about owning objectives as a team
Until WvW hands out rewards strictly on the basis of how well the team as a whole is doing, its going to continue to be broken.
Its not the new maps. The new maps are actually fun. The problem is that people don’t want to play in them because they’re built for WvW siege play in stead of being built for random kitten roaming and quick flipping.
I’d be extremely happy to see all of the people that just want “big fights” to go to EOTM where the score doesn’t matter and there’s no meaningful objective. I’d be happy to see the stupidity of “server teams” killed in favor of randomly selected teams per season for every guild to ensure more stable and even populations.
WvW is a massive and highly objective based mode. Its reward system and the server transfer model does not reflect that, and it should. If it did, more people would actually go to WvW to play WvW.
Fix the personal rewards to match the team oriented gametype and wvw will start to fix itself.
Yea, I can’t help but notice that a lot of the “solutions” people are writing about here are from the perspective of vet players who are from the “devolved” WvW and trying to reinvent WvW in that image which would be a shame since that doesn’t necessarily appeal to a wide audience. We often forget that EOTM players used to be WvW players. At the same time it would be a disaster to try to have WvW as it was at launch since that style is relatively played out amongst the vets still playing. I am at a loss of ideas there.
The PvE server buffs are still there. The problem with them has always been that they are completely invisible and thus rendered meaningless. Most of WvW rewards are like this, where an individual’s contribution to the team’s performance is obscure and many times indirect. Bonus chests for winning a match is likewise as barely any casual player understands why they are receiving it.
My personal opinion is that reward tracks and a sort of bonus progression that are calculated/given out per tick similar to what happens at the end of an sPvP match, something along the lines of “top defender” “top repair” “top player kills”, may provide highly visible feedback to the individual player of their contribution to the team. It could go a long way towards incentivizing playing for the team (whether server, or alliance, etc.).
I like the idea of a WvW reward track but my idea would be to add it as a participation check for a ticket reward system. The track gives out whatever loot and some tickets as the last tier reward. If you complete the track in a matchup, you are able to be rewarded tickets which scales based on how your server places. Ticket vendor would actually sell good rewards such as ascended weapon/armor chest (random stat each week), WvW only skins (new ones, for both armor and weapons), new HoT insignias, runes and sigils (only the ones which can’t be TPed, for HoT players only ofc) and some sort of rotation for random recipes/skins. Oh and the reward track would either only be obtainable once a week or subsequent runs of it would give worse rewards (no ticket farming).
Not sure how to not promote zerging but hey, nothings done that for the past 3 years, May as well make WvW rewards good to get players in there.
Edit: Oh and a WvW ascended backpack with selectable stats as a reward.
Edit: Oh, the WvW reward track would also have diminishing returns on track gain so zerging is at least put off a little. Defending an objective and player kills would give track credit as well (defense would give most).
(edited by Draeyon.4392)
I’m not really interested is catering to “fight guilds”
They aren’t WvW guilds. They’ve co-opted WvW for a self invented game type because the game (foolishly) still hasn’t catered to large scale TDM, literally one of the easiest game types to track and code.
This is simply not true. The “fight guild” style exists in every RvR game, because it is open-world PvP. GW2 Beta was filled with people assessing and encouraging WvW as their next RvR game, and we had “fights guilds” from day one. Anvil Rock, in particular, was very heavy with that play style, because it was the launch-day choice for most tPvP players, considering that the PvP lobbies were server-bound. When they entered WvW, they often ignored commanders and chased fights.
There is nothing inherent to an RvR scoreboard that demands concern for the scoring mechanic. Realm-based combat matches last too long (even if only a week) to ever enforce or demand player concern for the scoring.
Score in RvR is an open-ended incentive and measure of progress. It is not an exclusive meta-reason to play, as is the case in nearly any other PvP type.
Therefore, “fights guilds” are an entirely valid outcome for RvR.
WvW is RvR, even if ANet doesn’t own the “Tri-Realm” trademark.
We often forget that EOTM players used to be WvW players.
Right, and that set of EoTM players tends to be ones who weren’t in WvW for the PvP combat. That’s why EoTM appeals.
At the same time it would be a disaster to try to have WvW as it was at launch since that style is relatively played out amongst the vets still playing. I am at a loss of ideas there.
There are reams of good ideas and interesting paths that WvW could travel, but on HoT launch day I chose to pay a different studio instead, because ANet has proven that they aren’t a studio that is willing to deliver the product that WvW should have been iterated into. They won’t even discuss WvW in the terms that it requires.
My personal opinion is that reward tracks and a sort of bonus progression that are calculated/given out per tick similar to what happens at the end of an sPvP match, something along the lines of “top defender” “top repair” “top player kills”, may provide highly visible feedback to the individual player of their contribution to the team. It could go a long way towards incentivizing playing for the team (whether server, or alliance, etc.).
I’d agree, except that we need a reduction in the frequency of reward icons appearing next to the mini-map. These need to be consolidated into the daily and weekly rewards output rather than constantly begging to be clicked with spinning lens flares.
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