Guild Wars 2

The trebs can be taken out with counter siege. I have done it myself and seen someone on a different server take them out to. Every server has placed these trebs in those locations. Even T1 servers.

Do I like them, I will say this, It is really frustrating to fight under one of these trebs. The first thing I do when I move to take a Northern tower is look for a citadel treb, if I see one, I drop counter siege and take them out. Problem solved.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Since it’s clear that this is a big concern for players, we’ll fix it.

Interesting response, because it sounds like you’re taking forum feedback as it is and seem to make no distinction between valid and invalid concerns like someone who has no experience of the game mode. Do you play Guild Wars 2 or WvW yourself? In your own words what do you like about it and what you don’t like about it?

Zenith.6403:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Since it’s clear that this is a big concern for players, we’ll fix it.

Interesting response, because it sounds like you’re taking forum feedback as it is and seem to make no distinction between valid and invalid concerns like someone who has no experience of the game mode. Do you play Guild Wars 2 or WvW yourself? In your own words what do you like about it and what you don’t like about it?

From what I’ve seen, it’s a big concern to players from two servers who have coordinated to make a ton of noise about it. Also both servers that are handily winning their matchups and have cooperated in the past to rig T1 matchups so that it can be their exclusive playground.

Zenith.6403:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Since it’s clear that this is a big concern for players, we’ll fix it.

Interesting response, because it sounds like you’re taking forum feedback as it is and seem to make no distinction between valid and invalid concerns like someone who has no experience of the game mode. Do you play Guild Wars 2 or WvW yourself? In your own words what do you like about it and what you don’t like about it?

You do know people have also reported this through in game functions right? This is not new, it wasn’t just brought up, it has been an issue for a long time. In fact there was a change made a couple months before HoT to try to deal with this, however it actually made the issue worse because they moved back the invulnerable borders thus allowing people to build further and further back.

X T D.6458:

Zenith.6403:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Since it’s clear that this is a big concern for players, we’ll fix it.

Interesting response, because it sounds like you’re taking forum feedback as it is and seem to make no distinction between valid and invalid concerns like someone who has no experience of the game mode. Do you play Guild Wars 2 or WvW yourself? In your own words what do you like about it and what you don’t like about it?

You do know people have also reported this through in game functions right?

I assume you, your guild, and your servermates, and have lobbied for this rule change through every avenue available to you.

Heimlich.3065:

X T D.6458:

Zenith.6403:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Since it’s clear that this is a big concern for players, we’ll fix it.

Interesting response, because it sounds like you’re taking forum feedback as it is and seem to make no distinction between valid and invalid concerns like someone who has no experience of the game mode. Do you play Guild Wars 2 or WvW yourself? In your own words what do you like about it and what you don’t like about it?

You do know people have also reported this through in game functions right?

I assume you, your guild, and your servermates, and have lobbied for this rule change through every avenue available to you.

I have, I even mailed a dev about it unfortunately didn’t get a response back. This is not about a rule change, its about fixing an exploit kthx.

X T D.6458:

Heimlich.3065:

X T D.6458:

Zenith.6403:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Since it’s clear that this is a big concern for players, we’ll fix it.

Interesting response, because it sounds like you’re taking forum feedback as it is and seem to make no distinction between valid and invalid concerns like someone who has no experience of the game mode. Do you play Guild Wars 2 or WvW yourself? In your own words what do you like about it and what you don’t like about it?

You do know people have also reported this through in game functions right?

I assume you, your guild, and your servermates, and have lobbied for this rule change through every avenue available to you.

I have, I even mailed a dev about it unfortunately didn’t get a response back. This is not about a rule change, its about fixing an exploit kthx.

You’re free to describe it as you wish, and so am I.

This is lobbying, very loudly, to change how the game mode works because your matchup has not tilted quite far enough in your favor.

Alpine has 0 effective designed-in catchup mechanisms right now and remains incredibly friendly to snowball outcomes. The server with even moderate population advantage can easily leverage that into a runaway score. Spawn camping and control of enemy garrison is a major morale victory.

Heimlich.3065:

X T D.6458:

Heimlich.3065:

X T D.6458:

Zenith.6403:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Since it’s clear that this is a big concern for players, we’ll fix it.

Interesting response, because it sounds like you’re taking forum feedback as it is and seem to make no distinction between valid and invalid concerns like someone who has no experience of the game mode. Do you play Guild Wars 2 or WvW yourself? In your own words what do you like about it and what you don’t like about it?

You do know people have also reported this through in game functions right?

I assume you, your guild, and your servermates, and have lobbied for this rule change through every avenue available to you.

I have, I even mailed a dev about it unfortunately didn’t get a response back. This is not about a rule change, its about fixing an exploit kthx.

You’re free to describe it as you wish, and so am I.

This is lobbying, very loudly, to change how the game mode works because your matchup has not tilted quite far enough in your favor.

Alpine has 0 effective designed-in catchup mechanisms right now and remains incredibly friendly to snowball outcomes. The server with even moderate population advantage can easily leverage that into a runaway score. Spawn camping and control of enemy garrison is a major morale victory.

I have no interest in spawn camping, I personally detest it regardless of who it is happening to. I am also not interested in running over 5 people with a zerg, there is no fun in that. I go to wvw for fights. If your server doesn’t have enough people to counter an enemy force, that’s an issue with population balance and coverage. Defending the use of exploits is completely unhealthy for any game, especially when it comes to one with a competitive game mode.

I have been playing wvw for over 3 years, I have engaged in many MANY outnumbered and hopeless defenses, sometimes going on for hours, just to end up losing everything. There were long stretches where it was normal to lose everything every day during certain times. And I cant count how many times I have been run over by blobs. And despite all of that, not once EVER will I defend or support this kind of behavior. This is not about me, you, or how it benefits a force on a map. This is about doing what is necessary to prevent issues like exploits from spiraling out of control and ruining gameplay and destroying the competitive nature of wvw.

If you cannot look at this from an objective viewpoint, then I don’t know what more to tell you that has not already been said.

X T D.6458:

Thank you Tyler. Its understandable that there wasn’t enough time to work on certain issues before bringing alpine back, but I dont think many people would have minded 2 extra weeks if thats what it would have taken to fix the issues. I mean we didnt even know when it was coming back, you could have postponed until August lol. This issue was constantly being reported before HoT, there were many many threads. Nostalgia has nothing to do with genuine concerns for map flaws especially when it comes to things we see as exploits. These things need to be a priority for fixes.

All that being said, love the work you folks have been doing recently, and thanks again for the great news

Just have to put this out here. If the dev’s had said that they were going to delay for 2 weeks. People would of been on the forums crying like they are now.

The end result is they changed maps back to the literal word everyone was asking. “bring back old maps no changes” So many times People on forums and in game kept calling for it and that is what they gave. If they delayed for 2 weeks the stream of crying about it be probably as annoying as it is now.

Also really if you own someones ne or nw tower and they need to do that to get it back. Walk away and declare yourself the victor. You are already basically spawn camping them then…

this thread is a thinly disguised hate wagon aimed at yb. nearly all the vocal anti treb protesters are from BG.

as for this tossing around the word exploit, everything about pvp is an exploit. if you realize youre fighting a key turner you exploit that by strafing quickly. you find your opponents weakness and take advantage of it.

previous posters have stated clearly, they come to wvw for the fights, they see someone not playing the way they want so they launch a crusade to crush the evil.

this is not comparable to using hacks at all, it comes down to studying how the game works and using it, which is not unlike crafting a superior build.

that being said i cannot say the game would truely be worse off by making spawn trebs impossible. when this is done however, it will be another option that has been removed.

for or against this issue, surely you must see we are dumbing down the game.

Shadows Creed.3902:

X T D.6458:

Thank you Tyler. Its understandable that there wasn’t enough time to work on certain issues before bringing alpine back, but I dont think many people would have minded 2 extra weeks if thats what it would have taken to fix the issues. I mean we didnt even know when it was coming back, you could have postponed until August lol. This issue was constantly being reported before HoT, there were many many threads. Nostalgia has nothing to do with genuine concerns for map flaws especially when it comes to things we see as exploits. These things need to be a priority for fixes.

All that being said, love the work you folks have been doing recently, and thanks again for the great news

Just have to put this out here. If the dev’s had said that they were going to delay for 2 weeks. People would of been on the forums crying like they are now.

The end result is they changed maps back to the literal word everyone was asking. “bring back old maps no changes” So many times People on forums and in game kept calling for it and that is what they gave. If they delayed for 2 weeks the stream of crying about it be probably as annoying as it is now.

Also really if you own someones ne or nw tower and they need to do that to get it back. Walk away and declare yourself the victor. You are already basically spawn camping them then…

This is not the only issue with alpine bl, there are others. We did not know when alpine would be rotated back in, so if it would have taken 2 extra weeks to fix existing issues before adding it back in considering again we didn’t know when it would be brought back, I don’t see the issue with waiting.

And please stop acting like this is only abused by only outnumbered groups. If an enemy is on your map and greatly outnumbers you they would have no need to stay in the tower they can just go straight for your garrison so please stop with these ridiculous examples. Many times I have seen entire blobs standing around in invulnerable spots waiting for spawn trebs to hit towers. Please stop acting as though someone will only jump on this when outnumbered. Exploits are abused because it gives you an advantage.

Heimlich.3065:

Zenith.6403:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Since it’s clear that this is a big concern for players, we’ll fix it.

Interesting response, because it sounds like you’re taking forum feedback as it is and seem to make no distinction between valid and invalid concerns like someone who has no experience of the game mode. Do you play Guild Wars 2 or WvW yourself? In your own words what do you like about it and what you don’t like about it?

From what I’ve seen, it’s a big concern to players from two servers who have coordinated to make a ton of noise about it. Also both servers that are handily winning their matchups and have cooperated in the past to rig T1 matchups so that it can be their exclusive playground.

You know… People from your own server have already said the spawn treb is an exploit and they refuse to allow anyone to use in their groups. I’m not ANet, but I think you are in the minority here.

If you need it that badly “to take back your borderlands” and to “prevent spawn camping” all of the time, maybe your population does not reflect correctly the tier your server is in or you should be making a thread about population balance in WvW instead.

Just my observations…

Synosius.9876:

this thread is a thinly disguised hate wagon aimed at yb. nearly all the vocal anti treb protesters are from BG.

as for this tossing around the word exploit, everything about pvp is an exploit. if you realize youre fighting a key turner you exploit that by strafing quickly. you find your opponents weakness and take advantage of it.

previous posters have stated clearly, they come to wvw for the fights, they see someone not playing the way they want so they launch a crusade to crush the evil.

this is not comparable to using hacks at all, it comes down to studying how the game works and using it, which is not unlike crafting a superior build.

that being said i cannot say the game would truely be worse off by making spawn trebs impossible. when this is done however, it will be another option that has been removed.

for or against this issue, surely you must see we are dumbing down the game.

As stated several times already, this had been reported many times long before yb was in t1. This was a problem when it was still tc/jq/bg. And its not just people from BG that have reported it, or have a problem with it. Its just for some reason people want to focus on us instead of actually looking at this objectively.

Just putting this out there:

This isn’t an anti-YB thing, I don’t know why people from YB always think everything is about them.

Every server in T1 has used spawn trebs, long before, there are plenty of players in every server that know how to set the siege, and how to counter the siege. Most players and commanders frown upon it, on every server, however there will always be the small subset willing to use them (more or less depending on server), and not like we can tell them not to.

As far as BG goes, if we run into spawn siege, we’ll counter siege, because that’s the only option (key point here), that, or leave the tower so the enemy can recap without resistance.

Is that what those who are defending spawn trebs want? To cap towers without resistance? Or to fight siege vs siege?

Granted, personally, I really don’t care, it just adds another challenge we have to get past in our fights.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

There are many reasons this wasn’t addressed when Alpine was brought back:

• Players were genuinely nostalgic for Alpine. Virtually all demands were just for Alpine to return, with no changes. There was no outcry that it was important to change Alpine to prevent spawn trebs before bringing the map back. Had we made a change to the layout of citadel to prevent this, perhaps we’d just be seeing a different set of angry threads, those mad that "we made a change that nobody asked for, dumbing down the map and removing a perfectly valid tactic. "

• We were attempting to bring the map back as fast as possible. Players wanted to play the map immediately. Our timing for releasing on 5/3 was already extremely tight. Fixing this issue would likely have caused us to miss our release window and postponed the update for another 2 weeks.

• This goes along with the previous points, but it wasn’t on our mind. We were just focused on bring the map back as fast as possible, in a state as close as people remembered it in.

• For the last 6 months, I’ve been told daily by players how great and well designed ABL is/was. This was our opportunity to see if they’d still feel that way, or think ABL needs additional work just like DBL.

• It isn’t/wasn’t something that needed immediate fixing, like a crash or an unconquerable objective. Players played with this exploit for years, and still had really fond memories of the map. If it turned out to be a big issue when the map was reintroduced, we could always fix it in a later release.

Since it’s clear that this is a big concern for players, we’ll fix it.

No, this is not a big concern. The big concern is you put this old borderland back in rotation This border is 1 of the reasons wvw got in the state it used to be, dead. You already made changes on the Desert borderland making it easier to navigate and whatnot and now we are back in 2014 all over again.

Heimlich.3065:

I disagree completely. WvW is a free-form sandbox gamemode. There are a great many mechanics that developers never intended which are used in different proportion among servers. Some servers have large population, some servers have talented spies with accounts on other servers, some servers have crass spies & meddlers that destroy supply and waste tactivator cooldowns, some servers have crafty and talented use of siege.

Everything you compared the spawn siege with from the spies, to the griefers, to the siege troll, to the tag watchers,s to the insurmountable blobs are examples of things that players would like completely removed from the game mode

Ven Zehn.6573:

This isn’t an anti-YB thing, I don’t know why people from YB always think everything is about them.

Everything? No. This thing? Yes, see: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Spawn-Treb/first#content

Ven Zehn.6573:

As far as BG goes, if we run into spawn siege, we’ll counter siege, because that’s the only option, that, or leave the tower so the enemy can recap without resistance.

It seems BG will also whisper and mail developers and participate in this shameful PvF.

Ven Zehn.6573:

Is that what those who are defending spawn trebs want? To cap towers without resistance?

No, had you read the replies in favor of keeping them, you would understand.

Ven Zehn.6573:

Or to fight siege vs siege? Isn’t the whole siege v siege why the term “siege-humper” exists?

A badge I’ll wear with pride.

I’ve read the counter arguments and if I try to tl:dr them: You’re outnumbered therefore you should be allowed to exploit. Right? The fact that the spawn siege can’t be dropped without jumping through some hoops should be enough for you to realize it’s an exploit.

However….. I do agree that something needs to be done to help a server that’s getting pushed that far back. That’s what Siegerazer was suppose to be, but he wasn’t particularly effective.

As far as that last example of the YB thing, that’s just it, it was the most recent example. People have been reporting this issue long before YB came to tier 1.

Ven Zehn.6573:

However….. I do agree that something needs to be done to help a server that’s getting pushed that far back.

There’s already a mechanic in the game for this. It’s called Tier 2.

Ven Zehn.6573:

I’ve read the counter arguments and if I try to tl:dr them: You’re outnumbered therefore you should be allowed to exploit. Right

Wrong.

Ven Zehn.6573:

The fact that the spawn siege can’t be dropped without jumping through some hoops should be enough for you to realize it’s an exploit.

Hoops? No. It requires jumping to the area where the Determined buff does not apply and deploying siege as permitted by the game.

Ven Zehn.6573:

However….. I do agree that something needs to be done to help a server that’s getting pushed that far back. That’s what Siegerazer was suppose to be, but he wasn’t particularly effective.

None of ANet’s various attempts to help servers that are pushed into spawn have been effective at all. Every one has failed and become merely a tool used to expand the advantage of the dominating server.

This feature which you call an exploit has been their only success on that front ever.

Otokomae.9356:

Ven Zehn.6573:

However….. I do agree that something needs to be done to help a server that’s getting pushed that far back.

There’s already a mechanic in the game for this. It’s called Tier 2.

And here we get to the real motive and reason for this series of threads and hyper-emphasis.

Wait, so you can’t just stand where you intend to drop siege, and drop it? You have to move somewhere, to place the siege, in a place that previously, you couldn’t? And that’s perfectly legit….

Well, this debate won’t be getting anywhere lol.

Ven Zehn.6573:

Wait, so you can’t just stand where you intend to drop siege, and drop it? You have to move somewhere, to place the siege, in a place that previously, you couldn’t? And that’s perfectly legit….

Well, this debate won’t be getting anywhere lol.

Siege deployment is bugged in lots of places. Heck, I have a character who can’t drop any at all half the time.

Bugged and deliberately prevented by a buff are completely different.

Ven Zehn.6573:

Bugged and deliberately prevented by a buff are completely different.

I have no mechanism to remove that debuff other than the one exactly as intended of walking out of the area it affects.

Heimlich.3065:

Tiny Doom.4380:

This isn’t a sandbox or a free-for-all arena. It’s a competitive league with matches and a scoring system. It needs to operate that way and if there is a widespread desire for a more open, player-based, non-score oriented game mode, be it free-for-all or Guild vs Guild or whatever then that needs to be separated off and developed appropriately. These aims and purposes are not compatible and cannot operate effectively in the same gamespace.

I disagree completely. WvW is a free-form sandbox gamemode. There are a great many mechanics that developers never intended which are used in different proportion among servers. Some servers have large population, some servers have talented spies with accounts on other servers, some servers have crass spies & meddlers that destroy supply and waste tactivator cooldowns, some servers have crafty and talented use of siege.

Yeah. Playing against your own team is against the tos, and even if it wasn’t, it would obviously be against the spirit of gw2.

This is the kind of person who defends spawn trebs.

Point is now moot. Was glad to read this: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Alpine-Border-Land-Back-Spawn-Treb-Bug/first#post6140350

Cake.4920:

Heimlich.3065:

Tiny Doom.4380:

This isn’t a sandbox or a free-for-all arena. It’s a competitive league with matches and a scoring system. It needs to operate that way and if there is a widespread desire for a more open, player-based, non-score oriented game mode, be it free-for-all or Guild vs Guild or whatever then that needs to be separated off and developed appropriately. These aims and purposes are not compatible and cannot operate effectively in the same gamespace.

I disagree completely. WvW is a free-form sandbox gamemode. There are a great many mechanics that developers never intended which are used in different proportion among servers. Some servers have large population, some servers have talented spies with accounts on other servers, some servers have crass spies & meddlers that destroy supply and waste tactivator cooldowns, some servers have crafty and talented use of siege.

Yeah. Playing against your own team is against the tos, and even if it wasn’t, it would obviously be against the spirit of gw2.

This is the kind of person who defends spawn trebs.

I don’t have any accounts on any servers other than my own. I despise the spies that other servers use against us. ANet has said that spying & wasting resources is A-OK in the past. I disagree with that judgment absolutely, but they have decided they want it as part of their game.

With spying, I wonder if Anet decided it was ok because there’s not much they can do about it, like, at all. I mean, they could ban players, but it’s a pretty fuzzy line between intentionally trashing a servers golems for the sake of another server, or someone who just wants to drive a Cadillac around the BL’s for a bit.

Ven Zehn.6573:

With spying, I wonder if Anet decided it was ok because there’s not much they can do about it, like, at all. I mean, they could ban players, but it’s a pretty fuzzy line between intentionally trashing a servers golems for the sake of another server, or someone who just wants to drive a Cadillac around the BL’s for a bit.

It’s not hard to tell when you’re repping the same exact guild that’s attacking your server and pulling emergency waypoints for uncontested keeps just before your guildies appear.

Evidently that’s A-OK.

Likewise the unofficial wvw matchup forum is full of screenshots of people wasting supply for the lulz and bragging about it.

Yea, there are the clear cut ones, but you know there will be players reported for taking 20 supply from a keep once, after the commander says to leave supplies, or similar situations. Most of the time, it’ll be black and white, you know the guy is screwing with the server, but not every case will be so easy, and that’d be a lot of work on the ban-team to sift through and determine whether each report is legitimate.

Ven Zehn.6573:

Yea, there are the clear cut ones, but you know there will be players reported for taking 20 supply from a keep once, after the commander says to leave supplies, or similar situations. Most of the time, it’ll be black and white, you know the guy is screwing with the server, but not every case will be so easy, and that’d be a lot of work on the ban-team to sift through and determine whether each report is legitimate.

If they addressed even the most obvious 10%, it would be an improvement for people who don’t like that style of play.

Ah well, I suppose that if that’s how the game is built I should probably pick up some extra accounts and play in that perfectly-acceptable way. Doing otherwise would seem foolish.

Heimlich.3065:

ANet has said that spying & wasting resources is A-OK in the past. I disagree with that judgment absolutely, but they have decided they want it as part of their game.

Yeah, they definitely didn’t say this, gonna have to ask for a source.

Cake.4920:

Heimlich.3065:

ANet has said that spying & wasting resources is A-OK in the past. I disagree with that judgment absolutely, but they have decided they want it as part of their game.

Yeah, they definitely didn’t say this, gonna have to ask for a source.

Go look at gw2wvw.net in the threads where the trolls congratulate themselves on supply waste and then come back and tell me ANet will respond to it. Those folks post their own screenshots with their own character names and are still at it week in and week out.

The official replies I was thinking of seem to have been removed/hidden with the old WvW matchup subforum.

Wow, this got off topic – lol.

I appreciate the response and all the attention the WVW has received as of late. This game type is built on communities. Thank you for supporting those communities and developing quality updates to keep the community strong.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

There are many reasons this wasn’t addressed when Alpine was brought back:

• Players were genuinely nostalgic for Alpine. Virtually all demands were just for Alpine to return, with no changes. There was no outcry that it was important to change Alpine to prevent spawn trebs before bringing the map back. Had we made a change to the layout of citadel to prevent this, perhaps we’d just be seeing a different set of angry threads, those mad that "we made a change that nobody asked for, dumbing down the map and removing a perfectly valid tactic. "

Just my opinion, I think the “no changes” thing was referring to tactivators, upgrading, HOT released WVW stuff – I may be wrong but that is what I believe those comments were referring to.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

• We were attempting to bring the map back as fast as possible. Players wanted to play the map immediately. Our timing for releasing on 5/3 was already extremely tight. Fixing this issue would likely have caused us to miss our release window and postponed the update for another 2 weeks.

This is appreciated. While I did not care which map we played on personally, I would rather have a populated ABL then a deserted DBL.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

• This goes along with the previous points, but it wasn’t on our mind. We were just focused on bring the map back as fast as possible, in a state as close as people remembered it in.

• For the last 6 months, I’ve been told daily by players how great and well designed ABL is/was. This was our opportunity to see if they’d still feel that way, or think ABL needs additional work just like DBL.

• It isn’t/wasn’t something that needed immediate fixing, like a crash or an unconquerable objective. Players played with this exploit for years, and still had really fond memories of the map. If it turned out to be a big issue when the map was reintroduced, we could always fix it in a later release.

Since it’s clear that this is a big concern for players, we’ll fix it.

This identifies that Arenanet recognizes this as an exploit. If they decide to leave it in the game, so be it. This is my entertainment of choice.

K. Thx. Bye. o/

Thank you Tyler. Hope this gets fixed soon. Atm NET in TC bl :/

http://imgur.com/cUWAAIX

The treb was so far back in spawn, I couldn’t target it. You can faintly see the bolder shooting out of spawn.

Thank you again.

X T D.6458:

Heimlich.3065:

X T D.6458:

Heimlich.3065:

X T D.6458:

Zenith.6403:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Since it’s clear that this is a big concern for players, we’ll fix it.

Interesting response, because it sounds like you’re taking forum feedback as it is and seem to make no distinction between valid and invalid concerns like someone who has no experience of the game mode. Do you play Guild Wars 2 or WvW yourself? In your own words what do you like about it and what you don’t like about it?

You do know people have also reported this through in game functions right?

I assume you, your guild, and your servermates, and have lobbied for this rule change through every avenue available to you.

I have, I even mailed a dev about it unfortunately didn’t get a response back. This is not about a rule change, its about fixing an exploit kthx.

You’re free to describe it as you wish, and so am I.

This is lobbying, very loudly, to change how the game mode works because your matchup has not tilted quite far enough in your favor.

Alpine has 0 effective designed-in catchup mechanisms right now and remains incredibly friendly to snowball outcomes. The server with even moderate population advantage can easily leverage that into a runaway score. Spawn camping and control of enemy garrison is a major morale victory.

I have no interest in spawn camping, I personally detest it regardless of who it is happening to. I am also not interested in running over 5 people with a zerg, there is no fun in that. I go to wvw for fights. If your server doesn’t have enough people to counter an enemy force, that’s an issue with population balance and coverage. Defending the use of exploits is completely unhealthy for any game, especially when it comes to one with a competitive game mode.

I have been playing wvw for over 3 years, I have engaged in many MANY outnumbered and hopeless defenses, sometimes going on for hours, just to end up losing everything. There were long stretches where it was normal to lose everything every day during certain times. And I cant count how many times I have been run over by blobs. And despite all of that, not once EVER will I defend or support this kind of behavior. This is not about me, you, or how it benefits a force on a map. This is about doing what is necessary to prevent issues like exploits from spiraling out of control and ruining gameplay and destroying the competitive nature of wvw.

If you cannot look at this from an objective viewpoint, then I don’t know what more to tell you that has not already been said.

Well said X T D +1.

I know a lot here are screaming very loudly trying to be heard over the spawn-siege defending just hoping anet will ultimately listen, but has anyone simply stated a reasonable fix for the issue? People love having a solution without having to think of it first. Could it not reasonably be stated that if you can’t deploy siege, perhaps you shouldn’t be able to build it either?

tl:dr: A reasonable fix would be to block siege-building (contributing supply to build sites) if you are Siege Deployment Blocked.

I think I just did someone’s job; pretty sure concepts is a job somewhere there. ;-)

Tyler Bearce.3427:

There are many reasons this wasn’t addressed when Alpine was brought back:

• Players were genuinely nostalgic for Alpine. Virtually all demands were just for Alpine to return, with no changes. There was no outcry that it was important to change Alpine to prevent spawn trebs before bringing the map back. Had we made a change to the layout of citadel to prevent this, perhaps we’d just be seeing a different set of angry threads, those mad that "we made a change that nobody asked for, dumbing down the map and removing a perfectly valid tactic. "

• We were attempting to bring the map back as fast as possible. Players wanted to play the map immediately. Our timing for releasing on 5/3 was already extremely tight. Fixing this issue would likely have caused us to miss our release window and postponed the update for another 2 weeks.

• This goes along with the previous points, but it wasn’t on our mind. We were just focused on bring the map back as fast as possible, in a state as close as people remembered it in.

• For the last 6 months, I’ve been told daily by players how great and well designed ABL is/was. This was our opportunity to see if they’d still feel that way, or think ABL needs additional work just like DBL.

• It isn’t/wasn’t something that needed immediate fixing, like a crash or an unconquerable objective. Players played with this exploit for years, and still had really fond memories of the map. If it turned out to be a big issue when the map was reintroduced, we could always fix it in a later release.

Since it’s clear that this is a big concern for players, we’ll fix it.

I’ll throw my 2 cents in here. I urge you to look at the bigger picture. As far as I’m concerned people throw the word exploit around way to easily. Every server has access to this one their OWN borderland. It’s nothing more then a homeground advantage that every server should have on their own border. When a server has been pushed all the way back to their own spawnpoint it becomes a matter of semantics if this should be called an unfair advantage. Furthermore just because a predecessor labeled it an exploit doesn’t mean you have to follow suit.

I don’t condone exploits, but this simply isn’t an exploit in my book. The bigger picture here should be what keeps the gamemode viable for all and not just the winning server. If a server can get a foothold in their own border again then that’s good for the gamemode in its entirety and keeping WvW healthy should be the main reasoning behind your decision and not the cries of a few vocal people.

That’s what siegerazer in citadel was for … The foothold.

Fear not friends, there is no attempt here to hurt any server but only to push for removing exploits and making fair play. Here was a post made 8 months ago, before certain servers were in current match ups: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Siege-in-Invulnerable-Spots-in-WvWvW/first#post5358718

- Many consider it an unfair advantage because while it’s nice to say “Only when we’re outmanned or losing will we use this”, everyone knows that people will still exploit it when your towers up north are tier 3 sieged up inside, same with garrison, etc. That’s just silly.

You can put shield gens up there and then the trebs are never counterable, because there is no way to engage the players on the shield gens (you can’t walk up there).

If you’re having trouble because equal forces to yours is pushing you north, one of two things could be happening:

- Map politics, alpine was designed for the home server to be double teamed, just look at how it’s tall and not wide. In that case, defend garrison with all you got (with out abusing trebs), that’s some glorious stuff there.

- One server is pushing you and with equal numbers/siege/towers/garrison you’re losing. This is a skill issue. Many guilds/servers take pride in wiping out keeps with equal forces vs a huge amount of siege. People shouldn’t have to demand for an exploit or unfair advantage because the opposing forces have decided to run certain builds and train. On the contrary, do so yourself, it’s a lot of fun!

<3

Why isn’t there an official feedback thread on the ABL like there is for the other changes? Another issue with them is the tactivators, the abilities are clearly designed for a larger area that the DBL towers and keeps are rather than the smaller ABL eg. the watchtower tactic that is spread far too wide. Why weren’t these changed? Its simply unprofessional IMO.

If you consider shield generators, unreachable spot, and invulnerable operators, it clearly becomes impossible to deal with.

Although I agree with some way to be able to deal with opponents holing up in your gari and N towers, like inability to fortify those objectives for hostiles and harsher siege limit.

Jayne.9251:

That’s what siegerazer in citadel was for … The foothold.

The citadel Siege* NPCs were never sufficient for the task. Their most useful feature was distributing supply to players who gathered around them at the end of their countdown and minimal use as a distraction.

As a player occupying an enemy garrison (often for days at a time), the Siege* NPCs were a nice break because of the free champ bag. Kill his yak and he can never breach the gate, then your occupation force can kill the champ at leisure.

inubasiri.8745:

If you consider shield generators, unreachable spot, and invulnerable operators, it clearly becomes impossible to deal with.

Although I agree with some way to be able to deal with opponents holing up in your gari and N towers, like inability to fortify those objectives for hostiles and harsher siege limit.

Both of those towers are vulnerable to siege that is well out of reach of a citadel treb. It’s possible to treb both NE and NW tower from below near the nearby supply camps, and a single player can crack the walls in 10 minutes if not interrupted.

Those camp locations are, of course, vulnerable to trebs in the respective towers, but a persistent, intelligent, assault force with slightly-superior numbers is always able to capture those towers despite citadel trebs.

On the present Alpine maps, those citadel trebs are the only mechanism that prevents an attacker from taking an absolute stranglehold on your map.

Holding Garrison allows an attacker to pen in the home team substantially and denies them access to most of their home borderland. I say that as somebody who has experienced both sides of that phenomenon many times.

On the one hand the citadel treb is a really lame maneuver.

On the other, in a match so completely imbalanced population-wise that the enemy server can hold your northern towers much less garrison and upgrade it, in the absence of Siegerazer (as toothless as it would be now) I am seeing the treb in a different light.

Under no circumstances should an enemy server be able to dominate so severely based solely on numbers that you have no recourse. This is why Siegerazer was implemented to begin with.

With it gone, well… I wouldn’t build it myself, but to loosely paraphrase Chris Rock’s old joke, I’m not saying people should build ’em, but I understand.

What if we allowed Spawn siege, however, make it so that players around it aren’t invuln? (Though, there is apparently an even deeper location people can place siege, so that one has to go at least)

Upon further research, the removal of Siegegoober, and the defense of this “tactic” (eh-heh), maybe making this siege permanent (not something you build) that is only available when your towers (and/or garri) are captured and cannot be turned (already aimed at the walls) or do not damage players (in other words, to take down the walls only) – maybe a middle ground on this could be met. Also, the fact that the player cannot be killed, pulled, ect. – that is really what makes this an exploit, imo.

Ven Zehn.6573:

What if we allowed Spawn siege, however, make it so that players around it aren’t invuln? (Though, there is apparently an even deeper location people can place siege, so that one has to go at least)

The siege has always been killable in most instances, it’s just incredibly hard to accomplish.

I believe the east citadel trebs can only be killed from within E tower which is hard enough to take while under constant spawn treb fire.

Even if you manage to kill either side’s trebs, it’s a trivial task to rebuild them and just resume activity since attackers can’t ever hold the areas they’re built in.

No team should ever be allowed to build anything on a spot the other teams can never stand on.

No, I mean the players, I know the siege can be destroyed, but the players are able to stand there picking their noses while you nuke or countersiege lol. So make them killable (remove the determined buff).

Make it so that it isn’t risk free for the players to use spawn trebs, but allow them to do it. I think that’d be a fair enough middle ground. Granted I wouldn’t be surprised if people still managed to abuse it lol…..

If you want to stop snowball matches and help drive a comeback mechanic for losing servers, why would you get rid of spawn trebs? The only time a spawn treb is useful is for either defending or retaking a spawnside tower. If a server has lost their two northern towers and is unable to retake them with regular siege locations, they need help.

Which do you want – to find counters to servers snowballing fights or to remove things like spawn trebs which are primarily used to counter a server that is so dominant they are literally being spawn camped?

X T D.6458:

Exploits are not, and should never be a viable counter. Whats to stop people with an equal sized force or more people on the map from using this? I will answer that for you, nothing.

The trebs can only hit the two northern towers which typically don’t fall unless a server has rushed them with little to no resistance or when a server is so dominant on the map that the home server can’t hold their spawn towers. If you are fighting for your spawn towers and you need a spawn treb you are in dire need of help on the map.

Spawn trebs are the kind of mechanic which could be introduced as a permanent feature of home BLs to prevent snowball matches and to keep borderland matches competitive or at least more forgiving to servers being considerably overpowered.

Do people really want to add power to servers that are so dominant they are spawn camping? We should be pushing for mechanics to counteract this, not make scenarios where winning servers become stronger.