Guild Wars 2

Purpose of Post: To discuss bringing the sPvP Amulet/Rune/Sigil system into WvW (with suggested tweaks).

Purpose of Suggestion: To remove the gear treadmill wall necessary to compete and experiment with builds in WvW, balance the overwhelming bunker/condi meta, and to introduce new players to the game mode that wouldn’t otherwise play for above reasons.

Proposal: To reduce the amount of balancing needed in WvW by promoting active gameplay and strategy over simply ‘powercreeped’ stats. With the removal of amulets in sPvP such as Celestial, Minstrel, Nomad, Dire, and Trailblazer builds are less bunker oriented and more damage or utility oriented.
- Amulets such as Cleric and/or Magi’s could be reintroduced to WvW to compensate for the ‘need’ for sustain classes in zergs or organized GvG/Roaming guilds.
- Food/Utility I will argue SHOULD remain in the WvW game mode.
- Players are leveled to 80 in this game mode only, just like in sPvP.
- ALL runes and sigils are available, although some could be ‘unlocked’ with gold or Heroic Notaries purchases as an example.

Results if Proposal is implemented: Fresh faces to WvW, stat balance, and the ability to swap builds/classes on the fly. First step in separating WvW balance from PvE and closer to sPvP thus allowing ANET to go absolutely nuts with it’s PvE balance.

Expected Arguments:
1. What’s the point of ascended gear if amulets are instated?
– ANET has a great thing going on with FashionWars2. People will always be able to chase after their cosmetic and farming dreams in PvE.

2. Will my Dire PU Mesmer build still be viable?
– Yes it will. Amulet choices such as Carrion, Rabid, Rampager, and maybe even Viper are all still available.

3. Won’t “Power Burst” Classes such as Thief and Mesmer become the new ‘OP’?
– Similarly to sPvP they are excellent at killing…but not so much at sustain or utility. The same applies to WvW.

4. Won’t this kill build diversity?
– This will allow you the freedom to experiment on the fly with different builds and classes and will bring a resurgence of long lost power classes that can’t currently compete with the bunker/condi meta. Can anyone say “hello rifle engineer!”?

5. What about classes like the DH trapper that seem to ‘plague’ sPvP?
– This is more of an opinionated question but consider that 80% of sPvP play takes place ON points…aka chokes where AoE classes shine. WvW is MUCH bigger so the ability to roam/kite are more prevalent.

6. Will this make the Pirate Ship meta a thing again?
– Probably, yes. Is that a bad thing though?

Final Thoughts: When you think the name GuildWars, don’t you immediately think of a game mode in which guilds can do battle on the fields of glory?! Let’s Make WvW Great Again!

One of the big things that already makes WvW great is the ability to use different builds and mix and match stuff in a way that the sPvP amulet system does not allow. The fact that many players choose to follow a metabuild should not be used to penalise those of us who don’t. I would really hate to lose the flexibility and think WvW would be worse for such a change.

Also “Guild Wars” in GW2 refers to the historical story element not intended wars between player guilds.

Hey Yuffi, thanks for the reply.

I would 100% agree that WvW is kind of a sandbox or playground to test out builds. I can’t say that that would go away with an amulet system. Can you elaborate more on why it would stifle creativity? To me the creativity you’re describing only comes from the min/maxing of sustain stats.

Hello,

Thanks for your big well argued post. I understand the points and acknowledge the underline issues, yet I don’t feel convinced for two reasons :

1. I often go to PvP to test build ideas and feel frustrated by the lack of possibilities. Like “If I could just change my weapon, I’d be more this, and it’d work better”. Anyway, I also acknowledge that the possibility of not begin fully optimized is a source of diversity.
2. I think that a lot of behaviours we see come from deeper mechanics than an apparent lack of choice in stats. The game mode in itself encourages zergs, discourages tactics around objectives, discourages roaming and small scale, encourages power creep and damage-oriented builds (condi or direct) at the expense of utilities…
   Even if there’s choice, and your idea would provide some, players won’t use it if they don’t feel both useful and effective.

On a side note, I think of many things when I read Guild Wars, but I’m perfectly sure GW2 has absolutely nothing to do with guilds beyond a mere gathering tool.

I’ll give you an example then. I don’t run a “set” of armor. I could choose to mix Soldiers and Marauders and Knights items to get a mix of stats that I can’t get from a fixed single sPvP style amulet.

Nah man. Keep you PvP stuff out of WvW.

Hoochieman.3107:

Hey Yuffi, thanks for the reply.

I would 100% agree that WvW is kind of a sandbox or playground to test out builds. I can’t say that that would go away with an amulet system. Can you elaborate more on why it would stifle creativity? To me the creativity you’re describing only comes from the min/maxing of sustain stats.

Amulet systems makes it so you can only have one stat option which stifles creativity and fine tuning of builds, look at WvW and the plethora of viable builds running around, now look at sPvP.

Also there is no gear treadmill, once you get at least one set of Ascended it is extremely cheap to change the stats and so on or you can craft multiple Ascended sets.

Also If you are theory crafting builds and mix and matching sets Exotics are still extremely viable, it’s only 5% stat losses, in stats between the two excluding weapons.
And if you want HoT stats then it’s always cheaper to convert Stats on Ascended.

A gear treadmill is a never ending replacement of gear for the stronger stats, look at wow every time new content drops the Stats of all new armor is increased forcing players to keep grinding gear, something that is non existent in GW2 it ends at Ascended/Legendary, nothing has higher stats, and for the foreseeable nothing will.

Hey Thomas,

Thanks!

1. You’re right, optimization is one of those terms that will ALWAYS be associated with video games with the slightest amount of competition. I think diversity more comes down to traits/utilities and less on stats in my personal opinion.
2. WvW game mode tactics does currently come down to the efficient Zerg. I personally frequently solo and small group roam and love the chaotic nature of the giant WvW landscape and mentality. I don’t think switching to an amulet system will miraculously cause people to leave zergs and go out and roam, BUT I would like to imagine it will give smaller groups more of an opportunity to challenge said zergs.

i agree with you that WvW need more balance, but big changes only bring more unbalance. So I would implement minor changes in order to keep theorycrafting alive

Blaque,

I have yet to have someone compare a ‘viable’ build in WvW that is nonexistent in sPvP, whether the meta or not. The amulet system would allow you to swap stats on the fly versus only being able to use what you own. Let’s say you play a ‘theory-crafted’ Valkyrie thief with Exuberance runes and Furious Sharpening Stones in WvW currently…guess what? That build will still be viable post-amulet system.

Peazomanco,

I think most full-time WvW’rs would agree that it’s in need of some sort of attention/balance. I also agree that generally speaking ‘big’ changes at once bring issues. However I would argue that this would strictly affect stats in a not-so-big way. I’m not suggesting that the healing stat is removed from the game or anything of the sort. sPvP in my opinion is in it’s healthiest rendition this season and I think a lot if not some of the balance is due to the removal of stats like Celestial and Dire/Trailblazer.

What’s the compensation for all the players that already spent time putting together their gear?

Hoochieman.3107:

Blaque,

I have yet to have someone compare a ‘viable’ build in WvW that is nonexistent in sPvP, whether the meta or not. The amulet system would allow you to swap stats on the fly versus only being able to use what you own. Let’s say you play a ‘theory-crafted’ Valkyrie thief with Exuberance runes and Furious Sharpening Stones in WvW currently…guess what? That build will still be viable post-amulet system.

You missed the part about fine tuning the build, there arealot of builds in WvW that rely on min maxing stats to achieve the number they need in certain combinations so there is no wasted stat. That’s why there is more viable build diversity in WvW than in sPvP.

The only reason sPvP has the one stat Amulet system was because the Devs stated they were too lazy to balance based on different stat combinations, Beofee they swapped sPvP to the one stat Amulet their was more build diversity( here’s a fun fact sPvP used to have a system with 3 distinct items that you could change for stat combos)

If you want a gamemode that costs nothing for gear and has static Amulet builds guess what they have that gamemode for you it’s called sPvP. A lot of players like being able to min max and make their own builds in WvW and that’s great with the current setup.

Clown,

The sense of accomplishment? No but seriously I have 4 sets of Ascended gear for various toons so I can understand the desire for compensation. PvE will always/should always be the place to put to use various stat combinations. If ANET really wanted to reimburse us perhaps they could allow a one-time free stat swap for ascended gear. It’s a bittersweet exchange for balance in my opinion.

I agree, but some conditions would have to be met:
– add more amulets that have a wider range of stat choices (more 4 stat combos).
– add an additional stat booster that takes your standard pvp stat spread a bit further (instead of a marauder ammy giving 2k power, add another accessory that is a fourth as powerful. this would help retain the identity and bigger risk of wvw.
– you can only change your build in a keep. finding an enemy in the field, only to have them run away to change builds once they realize what spec you are would be really annoying.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

look at WvW and the plethora of viable builds running around

Also there is no gear treadmill

A gear treadmill is a never ending replacement of gear for the stronger stats, look at wow

lol
k
lol
summary : well played

Blaque,

Thanks for responding. Yes I certainly do remember the time when amulets in sPvP allowed you to attach ‘jewels’ to them giving increased stat diversity. That same jewel idea could be implemented if that was an overwhelmingly popular suggestion.

OK on to the min/maxing argument. Like I’ve suggest all of the current runes/sigils in the game would be available with this system. Food and Utility would also be available. The only class that I can imagine needing the most tweaking would be a D/D Elementalist roaming build that requires as close to 30% Crit Chance and a decent amount of toughness/vit/healing power with it’s primary stat being power respectively. D/D ele could still be implemented by “experimenting” with let’s say Marauder amulet + Durability Runes, or Mender’s with Wurm Runes, etc etc. I’m still not really sold by your min/max argument as people will ALWAYS find optimal builds regardless of the system.

Stand The Wall,

Thanks for your points. I would also agree that we merely adopt the sPvP Amulet system whilst also adding new stats to the game mode. We can go nuts! My general rule is that the ‘Sustain Trinity’ is at a minimum when it comes to stat combinations (Toughness/Vitality/Healing Power).
In regards to when you can change your build that’s completely up for grabs. I would say anytime you’re out of combat but I’m sure being limited to a Keep’s Presence would work too.

No thanks.

I like being able to use PvE equipment freely. Given there are good fights, both even and uneven on all servers, gearing doesn’t seem to be a particular large issue. Nor is ANet trying to get WvW into the ‘eSports’ arena, where gear shouldn’t decide the win, but rather player capability.

Please do not switch over to PvP style gearing system.

Hey Ni In,

Thanks for your input. I’m not exactly sure what you mean by ‘use PvE equipment freely’. WvW is indeed a beautiful chaotic game mode that is ripe with uneven/even fights. I don’t think unifying stats would ever affect the equality of a fight as it will always come down to strategy, numbers, builds, skill, ping, etc. This suggestion is one that promotes bringing new players to the game mode while also allowing you to “freely” play the associated gear that may or may not be what you use in PvE.

Rather than adding amulets (like in pvp) they could add an interface similar to gw2 build editor, in that you can select each stat for armour pieces and trinkets as well select each rune and sigil. That way people are still free to choose almost any build they like, without the pvp limitations. I’m also for the idea of more “t5” wvw food (as i call it) available, giving us cheaper alternative to the current meta food (8% damage reduction, +8% boon duration etc).
ps: I’ve got 15 ascended sets and I don’t feel that they’d be wasted if this system was introduced.

For new players, there absolutely is a gear treadmill. For min maxers, that treadmill is much bigger. Implementing the amulet system for wvw would tell potential buyers, wow I can just jump right in without grinding for hours on end to be competitive? How is this a bad thing? More noobs = more loot, and more bodies in a game mode that desperately needs them.

I’m sorry Xan, but I cannot buy the idea of having the amulet system in WvW. At least not as it is. I’m in the same boat of the people who complain that it would kill build diversity with the innability of min/max stats. In fact I too run several different stats on my gear to get to the point I want and it annoy me that I cannot play my builds I use to their full potential when I go to sPvP.

I do however have a proposal that could eliminate the gear treadmill while still allowing min/max’ing. A amulet that we can select the stats we want on it with certain limitations.

The biggest stat gain you can have from gear alone is if you play a full ascended 4-stat gear which grant you 3610 points.
The highest single stat you can have from gear alone is from the highest stat in a 3-stat gear which give 1382 points (ignoring the 1000 base from pow/pre/tou/vit stats).

My proposal is that the amulet allow you to distribute 3600 within all your atributes while not being able to go above 1400 in a single stat. (I’ve rounded the numbers for the sake of easier math).
The Sigils and Runes could follow the same rule as sPvP (you start with some and can unlock the others). However, I am not sure if certain runes should be eliminated just as they are on sPvP (Yes, I’m talking about Perplexity and Durability runes). After all, we’re trying to give freedom of choice, no?

Pros:
- Gear Treadmill eliminated. The only thing you need is a white weapon/armor, like in sPvP.
- Maximum Min/Max’ing (pun inteded) allowed.
- Being able to change stats without having to carry a whole bunch of armor/trinkets in your bag (altho you problably should only be able to change the amulet at a NPC in your spawn point or upgraded keep)
- Easy to leave default stats for non Min/Max players (Exemples being: Berserker Lazy Amulet 1400pow/1100pre/1100fer or Marauder Lazy Amulet 1200pow/1200pre/600vit/600fer)

Cons:
- Freedom to Min/Max’ing need to include every stat, which can end up bringing even more broken builds than we already have.
- This would allow things like 1200vit/1200tou/1200heal wetnoodle bunkers to exist.
- Crits with 1400pow/1400fer will hurt even more than the ones people cry currently.
- 1400Cdmg/1400Exper/400vit/400tou (/cringes)

It is too late… too many of us have grinded to earn our gear to start losing it. I already suffered through the guild reset where our guild lost every upgrade we earned. I don’t think I would make it through a reset that removed some of the gear I spent a lot of time acquiring.

Jeknar.6184:

snipples

I like this idea a lot. The cringe at the end still would be better then this. Also power builds would be reigned in a bit. Your idea is the best so far I think.

Straegen.2938:

It is too late… too many of us have grinded to earn our gear to start losing it. I already suffered through the guild reset where our guild lost every upgrade we earned. I don’t think I would make it through a reset that removed some of the gear I spent a lot of time acquiring.

Gear grind could be somewhat accounted for by having the base available stat amulets be masterwork, and have exotic/ascended stats available for people who have them (in increments depending on what piece of armor you have). This is sort of a bandaid that acts like the same way as just having armor, but the maximums would be reduced overall, somewhat helping to prevent massive bunkers and bursts.

Hey Jeky,

First off thanks for offering an alternative rather than simply saying no. OK so I do and I don’t like the alterations you made.
I like the “idea” of having a blank amulet that lets you pick whatever combination of stats you want, however, I think you’ll basically end up with a build very reminiscent to the Celestial amulet which was removed for a reason. I wouldn’t mind (nitpicking here) taking a ‘base’ amulet like Marauder for example and “adjusting” the stats of it, e.g. pushing vitality up more at the cost of precision going down or something. To me though that seems a lot harder to implement into the game than simply adopting the current system in sPvP.
Obviously at some point ‘customization’ will ultimately lead back to pushing the bunker/condi meta more and more into prominence without checks and balances.

Jek again,

In this current meta a 5 man group (let’s say) can run 2 Trailblazer Necro/Reapers with Epidemic. Pause. They can then be supported by an all-star cast consisting of a Minstrel Tempest, Minstrel Shout Guardian, and let’s say a Cavalier/Marauder Revenant running Malyx/Jalice. Not to name names or throw any ‘roaming’ guild under the bus but this exact comp is to be expected in our current “meta”. Killing or countering a team like this, without numbers is very difficult to say the least.

With an amulet system reducing Minstrel to Clerics or Magis or even Mender’s, Trailblazer’s to Carrion, and etc we can start to see counter-play to groups such as this. By no means would that comp become useless, it would simply have an exposed hide for players to take advantage of.

Taking that same 5 man group comp again with NO armor whatsoever they still can upkeep Fury, Might, Protection (40% with Temp), Rite of the Great Dwarf (50% DMG REDUC), Stability, Regen, and Resistance… A simple ‘nerf’ if you will to stat balance by implementing an Amulet system would be an excellent start to truly balancing WvW.

It would be the final nail in the coffin that would get me to leave this game for good. No thanks. The amulet system is the exact reason I don’t like spvp in the first place. I’d rather make my own builds and be able to mix and match stuff to my own personal tastes. Just nerf the hell out of conditions and wvw will be fine. We don’t need amulets for that. I don’t know why people keep bringing up this stupid topic anyway. If you like spvp’s system so much, then fracking play spvp and dont try to make wvw as boring as spvp is for those of us that like making our own custom builds.

Nikkinella.8254:

It would be the final nail in the coffin that would get me to leave this game for good. No thanks. The amulet system is the exact reason I don’t like spvp in the first place. I’d rather make my own builds and be able to mix and match stuff to my own personal tastes. Just nerf the hell out of conditions and wvw will be fine. We don’t need amulets for that.

Thanks for the response Nikki.
Sounds like your opinion is set in stone, I can respect that. I’m not entirely sure why the amulet system has gone so far as to “scare” you away from sPvP but that is your position. I would like to repeat the fact that runes, sigils, food and utility would still be a factor in ‘designing’ your build as well. My position is that of a long-time devoted connoisseur of WvW and I’m tired of seeing players leave or never set foot into the game-mode because of the gear treadmill or balance issues. This is my suggestion to help alleviate that.

Nikkinella.8254:

It would be the final nail in the coffin that would get me to leave this game for good. No thanks. The amulet system is the exact reason I don’t like spvp in the first place. I’d rather make my own builds and be able to mix and match stuff to my own personal tastes. Just nerf the hell out of conditions and wvw will be fine. We don’t need amulets for that. I don’t know why people keep bringing up this stupid topic anyway. If you like spvp’s system so much, then fracking play spvp and dont try to make wvw as boring as spvp is for those of us that like making our own custom builds.

Youre not reading the responses some people have contributed. Their responses would make sure everyone can still enjoy all the variance in the world while putting some hard caps on out of control builds.

Hoochieman.3107:

Nikkinella.8254:

It would be the final nail in the coffin that would get me to leave this game for good. No thanks. The amulet system is the exact reason I don’t like spvp in the first place. I’d rather make my own builds and be able to mix and match stuff to my own personal tastes. Just nerf the hell out of conditions and wvw will be fine. We don’t need amulets for that.

Thanks for the response Nikki.
Sounds like your opinion is set in stone, I can respect that. I’m not entirely sure why the amulet system has gone so far as to “scare” you away from sPvP but that is your position. I would like to repeat the fact that runes, sigils, food and utility would still be a factor in ‘designing’ your build as well. My position is that of a long-time devoted connoisseur of WvW and I’m tired of seeing players leave or never set foot into the game-mode because of the gear treadmill or balance issues. This is my suggestion to help alleviate that.

Those players who don’t want the gear grind have spvp to go to and play with amulets. If the amulet system did get put in wvw, where would players like me go? Basically told to go F ourselves and play another game instead. cant use my gear that I worked for and duel people in pve. And even if i could, that would get boring after awhile. The whole reason i play wvw in the first place is so i can make my own builds and roam, and fight other players who have unique builds as well. It would completely eliminate everything that i find fun about the game mode entirely and remove any reason I even have to play this game at all. So no thanks, keep spvp in spvp. You say you’re tired of seeing players leave or not want to go into wvw? Think about it from my perspective. That would make me, and pretty much everyone in my guild want to leave. So you’re basically telling 40 something people to go screw themselves and find a new game to play. The amulet system is why we dont like spvp in the first place. dont bring that crap into wvw. I’m sure we arent the only ones that dislike it. You’d make alot of people quit the game entirely. I don’t know why you would want 2 different game modes to be the same anyway. You spvp to play in for balanced stuff with amulets, and wvw is a combination of pve gear where you can fight people like you do in spvp. which is the whole thing that makes it fun in the first place.

Nikkinella.8254:

snipples

Read what Jeknar wrote.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Nikkinella.8254:

It would be the final nail in the coffin that would get me to leave this game for good. No thanks. The amulet system is the exact reason I don’t like spvp in the first place. I’d rather make my own builds and be able to mix and match stuff to my own personal tastes. Just nerf the hell out of conditions and wvw will be fine. We don’t need amulets for that. I don’t know why people keep bringing up this stupid topic anyway. If you like spvp’s system so much, then fracking play spvp and dont try to make wvw as boring as spvp is for those of us that like making our own custom builds.

Youre not reading the responses some people have contributed. Their responses would make sure everyone can still enjoy all the variance in the world while putting some hard caps on out of control builds.

The only out of control builds right now could be balanced by some simple nerfs to conditions, and minor tweaks to overpowered traits. Not completely gutting the customization we have now. I read the responses, and theyre all terrible ideas. I’d rather not have my creativity stifled and limited in any way at all. And that’s precisely what an amulet system would do. You people that don’t think it will kill build diversity are delusional fools. If the search option in this forum wasnt so garbage, i’d try to dig up topics brought up when they decided to change the trait system and people made the same stupid arguments in favor of it. Have you morons forgotten so soon? Remember how nice it was when we could put 30 points into one trait line? The amount of customization we had back then? Dumbing stuff down = LESS build diversity, not more. NO, I will always be totally against this in any shape or form. I was against the trait changes, and I was right about that. I’m against this too. If i had things my way, we’d go back to the old trait system as well.

Nikkinella,

If you don’t mind me pressing, I’d like it if you could share a build with me that you fear would no longer be viable with the amulet system? I genuinely want to know exactly what critiques of the system there are. As mentioned above as well, many new amulets can be implemented into WvW that are NOT in sPvP at the present time…

Hello,

While I only have 1 full set of Ascended gear, as an avid thoerycrafter it gets expensive testing builds, needing to make/but armor sets/runes….etc so this would def save me a lot of gold….however as some have stated, this would reduce build diversity, not only to min/max (which many many people do and enjoy as it give them the most of their build). Imo I prefer to use different stat combos and thats more important to me than losing gold for getting gear.

This wouldn’t “break” WvW if what you are suggesting gets implemented, however for those like me that enjoy making builds and testing them, but no matter how you look at it or what is said, the diversity will drop and builds will almost be as stale as in PvP.

I find builds limited in PvP, even when we had more ammy’s to choose from. Thats why I don’t PvP but WvW…freedom to make the build the way I want without restrictions (and I know for a fact there are those that feel the same way)

I commend your idea and appreciate you trying to find ways to enhance/change WvW in a positive way, however I am going to have to do the Canadian thing and politely disagree and apologize for such.

Hoochieman.3107:

Nikkinella,

If you don’t mind me pressing, I’d like it if you could share a build with me that you fear would no longer be viable with the amulet system? I genuinely want to know exactly what critiques of the system there are. As mentioned above as well, many new amulets can be implemented into WvW that are NOT in sPvP at the present time…

Read my above response. And I don’t share builds with anyone for the exact reason that I like having unique things that only I use. Even if all stat combinations in existence were available, none of my builds would be able to be replicated with an amulet system. Even when we had more amulet choices before, I could never use any of my builds in spvp, which is why I hated it. I don’t like having preexisting stuff as my only option. I want to create my own unique individual builds. And that would never be possible with any kind of amulet system. I dont like using whole sets. I mix gear and for me, its always more effective than what everyone else is using.

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

Hello,

While I only have 1 full set of Ascended gear, as an avid thoerycrafter it gets expensive testing builds, needing to make/but armor sets/runes….etc so this would def save me a lot of gold….however as some have stated, this would reduce build diversity, not only to min/max (which many many people do and enjoy as it give them the most of their build). Imo I prefer to use different stat combos and thats more important to me than losing gold for getting gear.

This wouldn’t “break” WvW if what you are suggesting gets implemented, however for those like me that enjoy making builds and testing them, but no matter how you look at it or what is said, the diversity will drop and builds will almost be as stale as in PvP.

I find builds limited in PvP, even when we had more ammy’s to choose from. Thats why I don’t PvP but WvW…freedom to make the build the way I want without restrictions (and I know for a fact there are those that feel the same way)

I commend your idea and appreciate you trying to find ways to enhance/change WvW in a positive way, however I am going to have to do the Canadian thing and politely disagree and apologize for such.

Fair enough, thanks for the response PapaSmurf.

I take it the biggest complaint thus far is the need for diversity. I’m not entirely sold on the fact that Amulets = Less Creativity but I do understand the gist of what has been said. I suppose the competitive game modes will have to lean either towards true ‘balance’ or complete build freedom. I personally don’t think the two of those entities can coexist without a seriously overhauled system.

Nikkinella.8254:

The only out of control builds right now could be balanced by some simple nerfs to conditions, and minor tweaks to overpowered traits. Not completely gutting the customization we have now. I read the responses, and theyre all terrible ideas. I’d rather not have my creativity stifled and limited in any way at all. And that’s precisely what an amulet system would do. You people that don’t think it will kill build diversity are delusional fools. If the search option in this forum wasnt so garbage, i’d try to dig up topics brought up when they decided to change the trait system and people made the same stupid arguments in favor of it. Have you morons forgotten so soon? Remember how nice it was when we could put 30 points into one trait line? The amount of customization we had back then? Dumbing stuff down = LESS build diversity, not more. NO, I will always be totally against this in any shape or form. I was against the trait changes, and I was right about that. I’m against this too. If i had things my way, we’d go back to the old trait system as well.

Its a stat/multiplicative damage problem, not traits and conditions. If you nerf those, people will just find another op build, or if there aren’t any, they’ll leave. Its a bandaid solution over something deeper. Pve stats shouldn’t exist in a pvp zone. Maybe we should allow pve damage to exist in pvp? No? Then why should it exist in wvw? Is wvw mainly pve, if not, what is it? Pvp. I totally understand why youre freaked out, but if people could assign stats the way they wanted to up to a max (ascended get a bigger max, more stats) then how would creativity be stifled? Its not so much simplifying but more just putting caps on certain stats. I for one would love to be able to switch out sigils and runes without having to buy completely new ones, same goes for gear. I hate carrying around 3 sets of gear. Its lame. As for the trait changes, I kinda agree there, might agree completely if I even remembered what they were like lawl. All I remember is 20-0-0-20-30.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Nikkinella.8254:

The only out of control builds right now could be balanced by some simple nerfs to conditions, and minor tweaks to overpowered traits. Not completely gutting the customization we have now. I read the responses, and theyre all terrible ideas. I’d rather not have my creativity stifled and limited in any way at all. And that’s precisely what an amulet system would do. You people that don’t think it will kill build diversity are delusional fools. If the search option in this forum wasnt so garbage, i’d try to dig up topics brought up when they decided to change the trait system and people made the same stupid arguments in favor of it. Have you morons forgotten so soon? Remember how nice it was when we could put 30 points into one trait line? The amount of customization we had back then? Dumbing stuff down = LESS build diversity, not more. NO, I will always be totally against this in any shape or form. I was against the trait changes, and I was right about that. I’m against this too. If i had things my way, we’d go back to the old trait system as well.

Its a stat/multiplicative damage problem, not traits and conditions. If you nerf those, people will just find another op build, or if there aren’t any, they’ll leave. Its a bandaid solution over something deeper. Pve stats shouldn’t exist in a pvp zone. Maybe we should allow pve damage to exist in pvp? No? Then why should it exist in wvw? Is wvw mainly pve, if not, what is it? Pvp. I totally understand why youre freaked out, but if people could assign stats the way they wanted to up to a max (ascended get a bigger max, more stats) then how would creativity be stifled? Its not so much simplifying but more just putting caps on certain stats. I for one would love to be able to switch out sigils and runes without having to buy completely new ones, same goes for gear. I hate carrying around 3 sets of gear. Its lame. As for the trait changes, I kinda agree there, might agree completely if I even remembered what they were like lawl. All I remember is 20-0-0-20-30.

I completely disagree with you on that. If i want to max out my stats in a certain way, I shouldnt be capped by an amulet system. It would stifle creativity. I would never be able to get the exact stats that I want even if we could assign points because we’d be limited by the amount of points. It would be terrible and boring for someone like me thats ocd about having all my stats be certain numbers in certain builds. It wouldnt be possible anymore. I hate carrying around multiple sets of gear too, but that’s why wvw should have its own set of legendary armor. That would eliminate the need to carry multiple sets. And I think we absolutely should be able to have our pve stats in wvw. Its a mixture of pvp and pve, its not spvp. I will always be against an amulet system because of that. Aside from the fact that all the pve i had to suffer through to get the gear I wanted. All that work I put in would be completely invalidated. That would kitten me off too. And yes, the problem is certain traits and conditions, not gear. Because there are OP builds in pvp as well even with the amulets. Spvp isnt even balanced now, and you think amulets will balance wvw? No, you’ll just destroy the fun of theorycrafters and people who like having unique builds for no reason at all.

Amulet system would make the builds less diversive, all DH would play medi trapper, i would be forced to medi trap and use utilities that i dont like.

Players would be playign what they play on spvp imo that is limiting the game and take options out of the to force player to play X way.

I dont do gw2 pvp (with this acokitten) cause i hate how i have to play in a way that i dont like, this would be the ultimate fatality to leave the game.

I agree to disagree then. Btw I don’t see how theorycrafting is even a thing seeing how few useful skills and traits there are.

I don’t want an amulet telling me I need 500 vita when I only need 250.

WvW is an open world pvp format, gear disparity is implied and offers personal goals of ~ +5% stats.

If you want “unfair” gear stat combinations culled ask instead for gear stats as a whole to be trimmed in effectiveness so there are less extremes in chosen played roles. Pretty crazy to think balancing is realistic when players can add over 50% to their HP while losing ~10% dmg.

Nikki,

OK I have to stop you there. You literally admitted yourself that you’re “OCD” about min/maxing stats. You’re therefore an exception not the rule to which balance should be factored. Even Jeknar’s idea of a ‘blank’ amulet with the ability to set the stats to whatever you want is STILL not customized enough for you, yet your suggestion is Legendary Armor…?! I’m sorry but you literally are going the opposite direction of making WvW accessible to the public.

Aeolus.3615:

Amulet system would make the builds less diversive, all DH would play medi trapper, i would be forced to medi trap and use utilities that i dont like.

Players would be playign what they play on spvp imo that is limiting the game and take options out of the to force player to play X way.

I dont do gw2 pvp cause i hate how i have to play in a way that i dont like, this would be the ultimate fatality to leave the game.

I’m sorry, what happened to Shout Guardian, Burn Guardian, Symbol DH build, Pure Medi DH build? All of these are more than viable. Stats won’t change that, traits/utilities will however.

Hoochieman.3107:

Blaque,

I have yet to have someone compare a ‘viable’ build in WvW that is nonexistent in sPvP, whether the meta or not. The amulet system would allow you to swap stats on the fly versus only being able to use what you own. Let’s say you play a ‘theory-crafted’ Valkyrie thief with Exuberance runes and Furious Sharpening Stones in WvW currently…guess what? That build will still be viable post-amulet system.

I’ve managed to do very well playing D/D power signet core thief for the past few years, and this build absolutely mandates extremely granular tuning of the build to make work. Taking this into sPvP is pretty much suicide because it lacks damage in order to get a kill, lacks defense to take any hits/handle a condi bomb, and lacks utility while needed all while having a huge excess or shortage of stats depending on the selected amulet. In WvW, it can be tuned into semi-viability by wasting zero stat points. Conversely, this stat allocation only works optimally with explicitly D/D signets. Otherwise, there are much better routes for other weapons, although this distribution still works well enough on its own given trait compensation.

The same is said for my power reaper, which only performs as well as it does given very concise tuning when opposing most meta builds.

WvW in general to get this to work would also need to maintain its higher stats than sPvP’s existing amulets. The quicker pacing and bigger plays are a big part of the appeal to WvW skirmishing, and you’d lose a lot of people and build synergy if the stats were lowered. I’d actually like to see sPvP stats bumped up as I think it’d do wonders for enabling scaling builds to have enough to get a foothold.

If they just made a few generic nerfs like removing dire/TB and perplex/durability runes from the game I’m pretty certain a lot would open up. If they nerfed most of the elite specs, too, we’d be back in business for a ton of diversity. Historically, before HoT, WvW had a way bigger variety of at least semi-viable builds given they jive with the player. I had tons of fun with my no-GS BF-based S/S mesmer and mega-crit shroud necro a few years ago.

Justine.6351:

I don’t want an amulet telling me I need 500 vita when I only need 250.

WvW is an open world pvp format, gear disparity is implied and offers personal goals of ~ +5% stats.

If you want “unfair” gear stat combinations culled ask instead for gear stats as a whole to be trimmed in effectiveness so there are less extremes in chosen played roles. Pretty crazy to think balancing is realistic when players can add over 50% to their HP while losing ~10% dmg.

So you’re suggesting “trimming” Vitality/Toughness/Healing Power on current gear and trinkets in WvW? Or simply removing Minstrel, Nomad, Dire, etc altogether from WvW?

DeceiverX.8361:

Hoochieman.3107:

Blaque,

I have yet to have someone compare a ‘viable’ build in WvW that is nonexistent in sPvP, whether the meta or not. The amulet system would allow you to swap stats on the fly versus only being able to use what you own. Let’s say you play a ‘theory-crafted’ Valkyrie thief with Exuberance runes and Furious Sharpening Stones in WvW currently…guess what? That build will still be viable post-amulet system.

I’ve managed to do very well playing D/D power signet core thief for the past few years, and this build absolutely mandates extremely granular tuning of the build to make work. Taking this into sPvP is pretty much suicide because it lacks damage in order to get a kill, lacks defense to take any hits/handle a condi bomb, and lacks utility while needed all while having a huge excess or shortage of stats depending on the selected amulet.

The same is said for my power reaper, which only performs as well as it does given very concise tuning when opposing most meta builds.

WvW in general to get this to work would also need to maintain its higher stats than sPvP’s existing amulets. The quicker pacing and bigger plays are a big part of the appeal to WvW skirmishing, and you’d lose a lot of people and build synergy if the stats were lowered. I’d actually like to see sPvP stats bumped up as I think it’d do wonders for enabling scaling builds to have enough to get a foothold.

If they just made a few generic nerfs like removing dire/TB and perplex/durability runes from the game I’m pretty certain a lot would open up. If they nerfed most of the elite specs, too, we’d be back in business for a ton of diversity.

For the record I’m a Power D/D DD main in WvW. I use Marauder/Pack Runes and have no trouble deleting most roamers…

Jeknar.6184:

My proposal is that the amulet allow you to distribute 3600 within all your atributes while not being able to go above 1400 in a single stat. (I’ve rounded the numbers for the sake of easier math).

I could get behind an idea where,

you get 3000 attribute points and can put a maximum of 1000 in each of 3 categories,

Offensive,
-power
-precision
-condition damage

Auxiliary,
-ferocity
-expertise
-concentration

Defensive,
-vitality
-toughness
-healing power

I would probably increase the conversion of precision to 25 = 1% among other balance changes of course.

Stand The Wall.6987:

I agree to disagree then. Btw I don’t see how theorycrafting is even a thing seeing how few useful skills and traits there are.

It’s not about they being entirely useless, but how only a few are far superior to the rest. Honestly, the biggest issue still lie in the skill/trait balances. Changing stats might help amenize, but the root of the problem is deeper.

Justine.6351:

Jeknar.6184:

My proposal is that the amulet allow you to distribute 3600 within all your atributes while not being able to go above 1400 in a single stat. (I’ve rounded the numbers for the sake of easier math).

I could get behind an idea where,

you get 3000 attribute points and can put a maximum of 1000 in each of 3 categories,

Offensive,
-power
-precision
-condition damage

Auxiliary,
-ferocity
-expertise
-concentration

Defensive,
-vitality
-toughness
-healing power

I would probably increase the conversion of precision to 25 = 1% among other balance changes of course.

I actually like something like this a lot too. +- Adjustments aside my only concern would be how hard/easy it would be to implement this.

Justine.6351:

I could get behind an idea where,

you get 3000 attribute points and can put a maximum of 1000 in each of 3 categories,

Offensive,
-power
-precision
-condition damage

Auxiliary,
-ferocity
-expertise
-concentration

Defensive,
-vitality
-toughness
-healing power

I would probably increase the conversion of precision to 25 = 1% among other balance changes of course.

That one would kinda screw power builds builds since you need 2 stats which are in the same slot. I’d say Precision is more Utility than directly offensive. But then again, it will conflicit with Ferocity instead.
Also, I used 3600 because that’s the stats of the full ascended pve armor we can currently get on WvW… sPvP amulet give 3000 for 3-stats and 3160 for 4-stats, which are significantly lower than their PvE counterpart.