Just so everyone understands Spvp amulets.
1. Ease of entry and playability to structured pvp. Key word here is “structured”. WvW is meant to be an “open world” pvp experience.
2. The devs do not devote any meaningful time or resources to improve, update or “balance” professions and skills, so they use the (cheap to use) amulet system to do that.
3. The devs use amulets to force meta changes because they do not do number 2.
Anet generally always uses the easiest way to update and problem solve, and while that may work in some areas, you can’t be cheap when it comes to professions, skills and combat designs.
Dev quote…
“We believe that having distinct meta periods is healthy for the state of PvP, but keeping the meta constantly in flux is frustrating for most players, because things that were effective one day were ineffective the next week.”
We don’t need the devs to force “distinct meta periods” with amulets… This entire game needs a team that constantly improves professions, adds new skill and weapons so the players can create their own meta and counter meta builds… not what the devs force feed down players throats.
Just so everyone understands Spvp amulets.
1. Ease of entry and playability to structured pvp. Key word here is “structured”. WvW is meant to be an “open world” pvp experience.
2. The devs do not devote any meaningful time or resources to improve, update or “balance” professions and skills, so they use the (cheap to use) amulet system to do that.
3. The devs use amulets to force meta changes because they do not do number 2.
Anet generally always uses the easiest way to update and problem solve, and while that may work in some areas, you can’t be cheap when it comes to professions, skills and combat designs.
Dev quote…
“We believe that having distinct meta periods is healthy for the state of PvP, but keeping the meta constantly in flux is frustrating for most players, because things that were effective one day were ineffective the next week.”
We don’t need the devs to force “distinct meta periods” with amulets… This entire game needs a team that constantly improves professions, adds new skill and weapons so the players can create their own meta and counter meta builds… not what the devs force feed down players throats.
Whether Anet considers WvW to not be a structured PvP, the players certainly have made WvW structured.
WvW has had it’s share of metas.
The Culling Meta
The Hammer train
The Pirate ship
The Boonshare/Condi Meta
What is a problem with WvW is that a new player has to grind just to get to be able to be welcome in WvW. We even have a name for them….Rallybot
F2P players have to grind to lvl 60, but we all know that 80 is best.
Then they have to grind to get gear.
Then they enter WvW and find out their class isn’t one of the preferred classes, and go through the grind all over again.
New to GW2 players just can’t play WvW like when we were all noobs.
Adding more xpacs with more specializations with more armor combinations will just make it that much harder for new players to enter WvW and this will eventually turn into EotM.
Just so everyone understands Spvp amulets.
1. Ease of entry and playability to structured pvp. Key word here is “structured”. WvW is meant to be an “open world” pvp experience.
2. The devs do not devote any meaningful time or resources to improve, update or “balance” professions and skills, so they use the (cheap to use) amulet system to do that.
3. The devs use amulets to force meta changes because they do not do number 2.
Anet generally always uses the easiest way to update and problem solve, and while that may work in some areas, you can’t be cheap when it comes to professions, skills and combat designs.
Dev quote…
“We believe that having distinct meta periods is healthy for the state of PvP, but keeping the meta constantly in flux is frustrating for most players, because things that were effective one day were ineffective the next week.”
We don’t need the devs to force “distinct meta periods” with amulets… This entire game needs a team that constantly improves professions, adds new skill and weapons so the players can create their own meta and counter meta builds… not what the devs force feed down players throats.
Whether Anet considers WvW to not be a structured PvP, the players certainly have made WvW structured.
WvW has had it’s share of metas.
The Culling Meta
The Hammer train
The Pirate ship
The Boonshare/Condi MetaWhat is a problem with WvW is that a new player has to grind just to get to be able to be welcome in WvW. We even have a name for them….Rallybot
F2P players have to grind to lvl 60, but we all know that 80 is best.
Then they have to grind to get gear.
Then they enter WvW and find out their class isn’t one of the preferred classes, and go through the grind all over again.New to GW2 players just can’t play WvW like when we were all noobs.
Adding more xpacs with more specializations with more armor combinations will just make it that much harder for new players to enter WvW and this will eventually turn into EotM.
Yes there are metas, but those have been more created by players with all the “tools” the devs provide, as they should be. Think you are missing the point of what I said…
Players can obtain exotics easily and function well, there are no excuses besides being lazy when it comes to gear.
At this point anet is not going to switch to the amulet system because it would only serve to anger current players who have invested in ascended and Legendary gear sets. The backlash would be enormous, and the devs would be forced to provide refunds to players or compensation for all the gear they invested in over the years.
Just so everyone understands Spvp amulets.
1. Ease of entry and playability to structured pvp. Key word here is “structured”. WvW is meant to be an “open world” pvp experience.
2. The devs do not devote any meaningful time or resources to improve, update or “balance” professions and skills, so they use the (cheap to use) amulet system to do that.
3. The devs use amulets to force meta changes because they do not do number 2.
Anet generally always uses the easiest way to update and problem solve, and while that may work in some areas, you can’t be cheap when it comes to professions, skills and combat designs.
Dev quote…
“We believe that having distinct meta periods is healthy for the state of PvP, but keeping the meta constantly in flux is frustrating for most players, because things that were effective one day were ineffective the next week.”
We don’t need the devs to force “distinct meta periods” with amulets… This entire game needs a team that constantly improves professions, adds new skill and weapons so the players can create their own meta and counter meta builds… not what the devs force feed down players throats.
Whether Anet considers WvW to not be a structured PvP, the players certainly have made WvW structured.
WvW has had it’s share of metas.
The Culling Meta
The Hammer train
The Pirate ship
The Boonshare/Condi MetaWhat is a problem with WvW is that a new player has to grind just to get to be able to be welcome in WvW. We even have a name for them….Rallybot
F2P players have to grind to lvl 60, but we all know that 80 is best.
Then they have to grind to get gear.
Then they enter WvW and find out their class isn’t one of the preferred classes, and go through the grind all over again.New to GW2 players just can’t play WvW like when we were all noobs.
Adding more xpacs with more specializations with more armor combinations will just make it that much harder for new players to enter WvW and this will eventually turn into EotM.
Yes there are metas, but those have been more created by players with all the “tools” the devs provide, as they should be. Think you are missing the point of what I said…
Players can obtain exotics easily and function well, there are no excuses besides being lazy when it comes to gear.
At this point anet is not going to switch to the amulet system because it would only serve to anger current players who have invested in ascended and Legendary gear sets. The backlash would be enormous, and the devs would be forced to provide refunds to players or compensation for all the gear they invested in over the years.
I think you’re missing my point, as well as points by others on this thread.
While getting 3 stat exotic armor is easy, 4 stat armor as well as ascended armor is more of a grind. Switching runes, “diversifying” armor as well as having multiple sets for multiple characters is also a grind. This is not what WvW should be about. All of this grind is a part of what is killing WvW.
You don’t have to PvE or WvW to be good at sPvP,
You don’t have to WvW or sPvP to be good at PvE
but you have to PvE or sPvP to get the gear to play WvW.
A new player can jump into sPvP or PvE and be fine, in WvW they’re not much better than an ambient.
Just so everyone understands Spvp amulets.
1. Ease of entry and playability to structured pvp. Key word here is “structured”. WvW is meant to be an “open world” pvp experience.
2. The devs do not devote any meaningful time or resources to improve, update or “balance” professions and skills, so they use the (cheap to use) amulet system to do that.
3. The devs use amulets to force meta changes because they do not do number 2.
Anet generally always uses the easiest way to update and problem solve, and while that may work in some areas, you can’t be cheap when it comes to professions, skills and combat designs.
Dev quote…
“We believe that having distinct meta periods is healthy for the state of PvP, but keeping the meta constantly in flux is frustrating for most players, because things that were effective one day were ineffective the next week.”
We don’t need the devs to force “distinct meta periods” with amulets… This entire game needs a team that constantly improves professions, adds new skill and weapons so the players can create their own meta and counter meta builds… not what the devs force feed down players throats.
Whether Anet considers WvW to not be a structured PvP, the players certainly have made WvW structured.
WvW has had it’s share of metas.
The Culling Meta
The Hammer train
The Pirate ship
The Boonshare/Condi MetaWhat is a problem with WvW is that a new player has to grind just to get to be able to be welcome in WvW. We even have a name for them….Rallybot
F2P players have to grind to lvl 60, but we all know that 80 is best.
Then they have to grind to get gear.
Then they enter WvW and find out their class isn’t one of the preferred classes, and go through the grind all over again.New to GW2 players just can’t play WvW like when we were all noobs.
Adding more xpacs with more specializations with more armor combinations will just make it that much harder for new players to enter WvW and this will eventually turn into EotM.
Yes there are metas, but those have been more created by players with all the “tools” the devs provide, as they should be. Think you are missing the point of what I said…
Players can obtain exotics easily and function well, there are no excuses besides being lazy when it comes to gear.
At this point anet is not going to switch to the amulet system because it would only serve to anger current players who have invested in ascended and Legendary gear sets. The backlash would be enormous, and the devs would be forced to provide refunds to players or compensation for all the gear they invested in over the years.
I think you’re missing my point, as well as points by others on this thread.
While getting 3 stat exotic armor is easy, 4 stat armor as well as ascended armor is more of a grind. Switching runes, “diversifying” armor as well as having multiple sets for multiple characters is also a grind. This is not what WvW should be about. All of this grind is a part of what is killing WvW.
You don’t have to PvE or WvW to be good at sPvP,
You don’t have to WvW or sPvP to be good at PvE
but you have to PvE or sPvP to get the gear to play WvW.A new player can jump into sPvP or PvE and be fine, in WvW they’re not much better than an ambient.
I made points, you responded and missed my points. Don’t mixed it up with anyone else or with your points that were off the mark.
WvW is not switching to the amulet system. Players can get the gear they want if they choose.
You personally find it more balanced, I do not. Full zerk is already a thing in sPvP it is used by GS/Ma+Sh warrior. Dire/Settler/Nomad not existing in sPvP is one of the reasons I find the game mode a bore, it is far too centered around burst for my taste, though tanky builds are problematic in a game mode that revolves around standing in a little circle.
3.5k power 220% crit damage zerk or 2k condi 3k tough 24k hp dire is possible in wvw and not in pvp is not a personal opinion, its a fact. well that’s great, you love tanky builds, as do I sometimes, but theres a point where any stat combo becomes broken and unfun to play against. an amulet system would fix that. unless you ask for aa nerfs, builds like these wont go away with a few trait fixes. I hope everyone realizes this.
At this point anet is not going to switch to the amulet system because it would only serve to anger current players who have invested in ascended and Legendary gear sets. The backlash would be enormous, and the devs would be forced to provide refunds to players or compensation for all the gear they invested in over the years.
I doubt they will, honestly, but there is a way to make sure players who invested time into ascended and legendary items don’t get robbed. its simple. give them stronger amulets.
le gasp
And unless they provide me with fourteen separate amulets, I’d just downright leave and never look back.
Even if the optimal-play balance field in WvW is off compared to sPvP, there is objectively an increased number of viable builds way outside the meta.
And odds are things would still be terribly imbalanced no matter how they split it considering most of the broken stuff in the game now is on the conceptual level regarding skills and traits and has nothing to do with stats.
In this game-state you’d just kill diversity in the name of what’s an already-horrible and extremely stale game-state due to bad design and lack of follow-up coming from ANet to actually make kit changes.
amulet system would kill WvW. What make WvW fun is build options but once you put amulet system instantly set limit on what you can make viable build.
will lead to bigger group out scaling small group even more an smaller group knowing there no hope for them.
i understand the logic to this idea of wanting to play more builds with out effort of PvE that would be nice but in the end it result just everyone quitting because once a game has a set amount of rules no one cares because there nothing to explore.
Prime example of this is Hearthstone they release new cards everyone play game for a solid week then pro release there instant MLG deck everyone quit because game no longer fun.
You personally find it more balanced, I do not. Full zerk is already a thing in sPvP it is used by GS/Ma+Sh warrior. Dire/Settler/Nomad not existing in sPvP is one of the reasons I find the game mode a bore, it is far too centered around burst for my taste, though tanky builds are problematic in a game mode that revolves around standing in a little circle.
3.5k power 220% crit damage zerk or 2k condi 3k tough 24k hp dire is possible in wvw and not in pvp is not a personal opinion, its a fact. well that’s great, you love tanky builds, as do I sometimes, but theres a point where any stat combo becomes broken and unfun to play against. an amulet system would fix that. unless you ask for aa nerfs, builds like these wont go away with a few trait fixes. I hope everyone realizes this.
At this point anet is not going to switch to the amulet system because it would only serve to anger current players who have invested in ascended and Legendary gear sets. The backlash would be enormous, and the devs would be forced to provide refunds to players or compensation for all the gear they invested in over the years.
I doubt they will, honestly, but there is a way to make sure players who invested time into ascended and legendary items don’t get robbed. its simple. give them stronger amulets.
le gasp
“Stronger amulets” are not compensation for time, effort, gold and cash spent on the game.
Pay-to-win has never been a sensible way to balance a PvP-oriented mode. You want to be more powerful than other players, learn to play better than other players.
Pay-to-win has never been a sensible way to balance a PvP-oriented mode. You want to be more powerful than other players, learn to play better than other players.
If you want strictly-balanced PvP, play sPvP.
The reason why so many WvW players have been abandoning WvW for sPvP or even other games is not because WvW isn’t strictly balanced. It’s because it’s not even slightly balanced.
Considering that balance has been the #1 concern of players around here since HoT came out, I can’t believe you didn’t know that.
The reason why so many WvW players have been abandoning WvW for sPvP or even other games is not because WvW isn’t strictly balanced. It’s because it’s not even slightly balanced.
I thought people have been abandoning WvW because of DBL for about 12 months, or because WvW rarely receives content and is currently in something of a content drought with no new rewards or anything to do. Really, outside of Triumphant armor and Hero’s weapons, nothing new has been added to WvW since the release of HoT- 18 months ago.
Considering that balance has been the #1 concern of players around here since HoT came out, I can’t believe you didn’t know that.
I use ‘strictly balanced’ to refer to how ANet balances build components in sPvP. They are very happy to lock out amulets and runesets that they think will disturb the competitive balance of sPvP; it has nothing to do with the actual state of balance.
Those specific controls placed in WvW are not likely to actually do anything because there is a loose sense of balance. Practically every statspread has a place with glassy spreads being prioritized by roamers and tanky spreads being prioritized by large-team players. In reality it is more likely to eject more people from the mode (I put so much work into my gear and now it’s a waste!) and destroy the economy (WvW plays a vital role in providing a motive behind the construction of many stat spreads).
It’s fair to say that WvW is unbalanced, but it has nothing to do with stats.
Of the balance issues that have been brought up since HoT…
1. Stability rebalancing issues.
2. Objective upgrade imbalances (Airship Strike/Stealth Fountains).
3. Population imbalances (The continuous “open BG!” threads).
4. Specific skill imbalances (SoI, Facet of Nature, now Epidemic is under the gun).
Limiting build components, creating strict balancing controls, will do nothing to affect these issues because it isn’t an issue. 1 and 4 need skillsplits, 2 needs rebalances, 3 needs no changes.
So you think the problem are the stats and not the broken traits/skills within the professions people cry as overpowered? Honestly, I’m pretty sure if the traits and skills that are too strong were toned down and the ones that are completely useless were toned up, none of this discussion over the stats would be happening because balance would be much more aparent.
“Fixing” stats won’t really change anything when more than half of the skills/traits in the game are inviable.the same traits (for the most part) are available in pvp, and guess what, the balance there is way better. if you nerf gear, then guess what, traits that rely on them will get toned down as well. if you cannot understand this fundamental fact then I cant help you.
You’re pretty ignorant if you think this is the case. Pvp is only slightly more balanced because there are less variety in stats available. Less build diversity. It has nothing to do with the fact they use amulets. Its because the same stats available in wvw are not available in pvp. And that’s exactly what we’re all arguing against. Why alot of us hate spvp and like wvw. Yes, you could make it balanced by adding the amulet system, at the cost of build diversity. If there were dire amulets and perplexity runes in pvp, do you think it would still eb balanced? It would be jsut as broken as it is in wvw, because of traits that work well with certain gear combos. Its the traits that need to be adjusted, NOT amulets. If they balance the broken traits and skills, maybe they could actually add more variety of amulets to pvp without it being broken. You instead want to take away variety to try to achieve balance? That’s just plain stupid.
One of the big things that already makes WvW great is the ability to use different builds and mix and match stuff in a way that the sPvP amulet system does not allow. The fact that many players choose to follow a metabuild should not be used to penalise those of us who don’t. I would really hate to lose the flexibility and think WvW would be worse for such a change.
Also “Guild Wars” in GW2 refers to the historical story element not intended wars between player guilds.
Very well said! +1 sir
And unless they provide me with fourteen separate amulets, I’d just downright leave and never look back.
Justine had a pretty good idea earlier in the thread. they suggested that instead of the amulet system as we know it we could have an attribute system that puts caps on how far you can take stats. their precise description wouldn’t quite work but it gave me an idea.
say we get our total amount of attribute points based on what gear we have on. then we can put them into any category we want up to a maximum, maybe in 100 points at a time. so the caps would look something like this:
1500 power, condi damage
1000 for every other stat
what do you think?
amulet system would kill WvW. What make WvW fun is build options but once you put amulet system instantly set limit on what you can make viable build.
see above.
“Stronger amulets” are not compensation for time, effort, gold and cash spent on the game.
its not perfect but its the same general principle. to compensate ascended could provide a bigger bonus compared to pve. maybe something as big as 20% more stats. so in the end it would be a big buff to people who spent the time on gearing up.
Pvp is only slightly more balanced because there are less variety in stats available.
And that’s exactly what we’re all arguing against.
If they balance the broken traits and skills, maybe they could actually add more variety of amulets to pvp without it being broken.
1 yes and no. stat caps make pvp more balanced as well. certain gear restrictions in pvp were introduced because bunker builds dominate a game mode where the objective is to stand on a small capture point.
2 see above.
3 maybe you have never read patch notes, but they constantly do tweak traits and skills. not as often as we would like, but guess what: things are still unbalanced, and what hasn’t been tweaked in wvw? gear. putting caps would help a ton, but it wouldn’t solve everything. if all was in balance, game play would be stale right? this game was built around the concept of certain classes/builds countering others. fixing traits and skills doesn’t do anything when aa’s and condis are hitting for insane amounts. that’s a gear problem.
(edited by Stand The Wall.6987)
Let us choose between amulet or gear in WvW. Lets us click a toggle thing so we can choose to use the gear we got or the amulet. Also, exotic gear is not that far behind ascended gear. If you have exotic and are better than the acended geared player you will win. On top of that, exotic gear is very easy and quick to get. I used to roam in full exotic gear then I got full ascended gear. Not much have changed. I got a bit more hp and a bit more power/crit chance, nothing overkill.
I dont think we should get the sPvP amulets in WvW but I dont think we shouldnt. I can see how it could help witrh the game mode if we get the choice to toggle it or use the gear we got and if you level up to 80 the lower level then the sPvP amulets are a must for those players
All of your points are reasonable, but tbh if I wanted an amulet system I would play sPvP.
I would hate to see an amulet system in WvW. The whole point of it to me is to be able to go and fight other players in a full gear, crazy open build environment. Amulets would destroy that. Also, exotic is generally fine if you can’t get ascended, so I don’t see the problem
An optional amulet system would be nice. So, if you want, you can select an amulet and it will override your equipped stats. But you don’t have to use it. Perhaps the stats only sum to Exotic armor/weapon + ascended trinkets, so that all the ascended farmers don’t feel cheated. Base weapon damage could still use your equipped weapon type.
It would make experimenting with new builds easier and cheaper. Also certain stat combinations from PvP (like Mender’s) don’t have an easy equivalent in WvW/PvE.
You personally find it more balanced, I do not. Full zerk is already a thing in sPvP it is used by GS/Ma+Sh warrior. Dire/Settler/Nomad not existing in sPvP is one of the reasons I find the game mode a bore, it is far too centered around burst for my taste, though tanky builds are problematic in a game mode that revolves around standing in a little circle.
3.5k power 220% crit damage zerk or 2k condi 3k tough 24k hp dire is possible in wvw and not in pvp is not a personal opinion, its a fact. well that’s great, you love tanky builds, as do I sometimes, but theres a point where any stat combo becomes broken and unfun to play against. an amulet system would fix that. unless you ask for aa nerfs, builds like these wont go away with a few trait fixes. I hope everyone realizes this.
To be honest I see no stat-related-problems with the builds that you linked me, they seem like rather strong builds, I’d probably have to agree that both condition damage mesmer and hammer revenant could use some toning down (but not much mainly in the evades department on mesmer and in the low-risk-high-reward playstyle of hammer rev), it is hardly the stats that make these builds powerful.
Balance is a very subjective topic. Personally I am a big believer of “if everything is overpowered the game is balanced” though I currently think that too much power is currently in different forms of automatic defenses (mainly when you get stunned or drop below X% hp you get stability/CC the enemy back/evade/take no damage/invulnerability). Id personally want power shifted from that onto more active skills (how that would look is a topic for another thread). In my opinion the game is balanced when there isn’t a very small amount of builds dominating completely (sPvP has 0-2 comptetive builds for each class), WvW generally has about 3-4 distinct builds (ie not counting one trait/armor piece different as a different build) for each class that are all more or less viable in the right enviroment in WvW. I am curious how do you define that a game is balanced?
(edited by Cevni.2049)
I don’t want amulets in WvW – I play an engineer and i love sustain tank and bunker builds as well as celestial stats and toughness and vitality stacking.
Engineer is a very tanky class by standards.
NOw in SPVP it’s all about damage and defensive boons and cc spamming. It’s a wonder how engineer sucks in spvp.
Yea i don’t want amulets in WvW PVP. I mostly roam and harass zergs.
Also Anet will not let celestial amulet or defensive amulets go through in WvW. So amulets are not good for WvW.
I think spvp is too “arena” like (from world of warcraft) while world pvp is a lot like ashran or alterac valley (with leaders, guards, towers, seige, weapons and other things).
WvW is more for casuals ,pros, guilds, and the general population. While spvp is more for gladiators and duelists and elitists.
snipples
the thing is I could link builds like that all day, its not just condi mes and ham rev. well what we could do is nerf stats or nerf every trait and skill that rely on them, aa’s included.
if a majority agreed on something being op, would their collective subjective opinion be treated the same as a singular opinion? for the record I’m not trying to speak for anyone else but in my experience most people I interacted with in gw2 didnt enjoy fighting against what we agreed was op. great statement about passives I agree, altho this game is heaven compared to teso in the passives department. what makes a game balanced imo? hmm that’s a good one. skills that don’t take more then say 33% of your hp, no passives at all, no stat stacking designed for a pve environment, no masses of unused traits/skills, not designing professions around one game mode when there could be more, not giving certain professions all the tools to succeed in one area of the game while not giving any to another profession, erm… that’s all I can think of for now.
Condi mesmers are not a problem in PvP, Condi wars are killable, no ghost reefs to speak of. Hmmm oh yea the stats are actually balanced
snipples
Snippinging
I do think they can nerf every overpowered trait and skill, the builds we mentioned and many others would still be a thing with amulets as they are powerful due to their setting and not their stats (hammer Rev would still be amazing in zergs with amulets, condimes would still be broken in roaming etc), what really links all overpowered build together is a no/low-risk high-res arduous playstyle (massive range and damage and staying in zergs for Rev, stealth+evades+blink+more together with good damage for condimes). Hence giving them less stats would change little and the most “broken” builds would still stay while a lot of more “fair” builds would take big hits.
snipples
I agree that the broken builds will still be used, but they wont be nearly as bad. you wont be getting one shotted or dealing with full dire.
you cant nerf them thru traits and skills unless you nerf every trait and skill (even aa’s) that rely on them. even if you do somehow manage to do this they will most likely be useless in pve.
snippled
Problem with the obscenely hard hitting skills are a rather small number of skills (backstab, vault, coalescence of ruin and arc divider for example just of the top of my head).
Dire and trailblazer are hardly a problem outside of condimes which talks more about that build problematic than anything else (ghost thief would keep ghostthieving with basically any statcombo that had condidmg).
They could nerf these skills in WvW alone to a reasonable degree(they recently split balance between gamemodes). That way fewer of the uncommon builds would get nuked.
no its not a small number when the stats are obscenely stacked. a few stand out but basically all skills hit really hard in both power and condi builds, even aa’s. just go hit some random pve mob with a maxed out build, or go to gw2skills.net and make some random build, and tell me this isn’t the case.
well, I agree to disagree. there is no way that I will be convinced that stats arent the core issue with profession balance in wvw.
face it, you are starting to adopt my snipples, its only a matter of time before you agree with me :3
(edited by Stand The Wall.6987)
snippleded
However, the insane burst damage is even more insane in sPvP, s5 was just burst every fight, there was a grand total of 2 meta-builds not based around bursting the enemy, removing stat combos with defensives is what leads to this. Changing the modifiers on a lot of skills would be a good start for WvW (this would actually be a good solution, a bit more effort to implement but would be a healthier way of going about it in the long run)
I can agree to disagree and not even your snippling can make me change my mind.
snipples
the difference is that in pvp you aren’t seeing 20k hits, so its much more balanced that way. removing defensive stat combos in pvp was great for the mode, it was boring to watch and boring to play. I doubt the amount of people that actually enjoy that is very high. nerfing stats in wvw wouldn’t remove that type of gameplay. ive said many times you would have to nerf a ton of modifiers for basically every weapon, including auto attacks. it doesn’t make any sense to do it this way, its basically the same thing as a stat nerf but less work. nerfing modifiers would kill hybrid builds because people would be forced to go all in one category or another to do good dps. in fact even speccing for a little bit of survivability would probably result in a huge loss of dps since modifiers would require more stats to be as effective. so in reality it would be a huge buff to bunker builds, ironically.
(edited by Stand The Wall.6987)
snipplededed
I have personally never seen a 20k hit in WvW, I’ve seen hits going upwards 15k which is far too high imo. Removing defensive stats is part of what makes me absolutely hate the sPvP gamemode s1 for example (after chrononerfs, pre-nerf well of precog was just dumb) was actually alright (mained reaper so not one of the meta bunker builds even), you actually had fights, not just brainless bursting which imo is what s5 is.
Having to nerf a ton of modifiers wouldn’t hurt hybrid builds more than it would hurt pure condi/pure power builds nor would it be anymore work than remaking an entire system. With an amulet system there are more hybrid builds because there are no good condition damage amulets only bad ones and really bad ones. Same with the options for healer amulets, or boon-duration amulets.
Changing certain modifiers would help improve balance and perhaps make there be more viable builds. An amulet system would make the currently most common builds more common and all but kill any other builds.
All of your points are reasonable, but tbh if I wanted an amulet system I would play sPvP.
I 100% agree with you. I now only PvP to farm ascended gear then I go back to WvW because I HATE the amulet system.
sPvP amulet system is an extremely boring, scripted, no brain, lackluster stand on the point AoE spam fest.
DO NOT take away build diversity in WvW, it is one of the main concepts that makes it fun for many players.
Just my 2 cents…
I would hate to see an amulet system in WvW. The whole point of it to me is to be able to go and fight other players in a full gear, crazy open build environment. Amulets would destroy that. Also, exotic is generally fine if you can’t get ascended, so I don’t see the problem
+1 sir
Condi mesmers are not a problem in PvP, Condi wars are killable, no ghost reefs to speak of. Hmmm oh yea the stats are actually balanced
Has nothing to do with stats, which is the funny part.
Condi mes runs perplex runes most times (deemed too overpowered for PvP) which is a major culprit, Dire/TB gear also deemed too overpowered for PvP is why both builds are excessive.
And condi mes is run in PvP, especially at the high tiers. PU condi roamer isn’t because much like ghost thief, and totally unrelated to amulets, stealth builds achieve nothing for PvP because point captures need to be made out of stealth, and the format isn’t about just getting kills.
If they removed Dire and TB gear from the game, WvW would be objectively better-balanced than sPvP due to the enabling of more build diversity strictly because of higher and more granular stat values/combinations. It’s the only reason I rarely sPvP and instead play WvW – my off-meta not-amazing builds can be at least played reasonably well in WvW due to granular stat tweaking and are strictly terrible in sPvP.
sPvP amulet system is an extremely boring, scripted, no brain, lackluster stand on the point AoE spam fest.
Sounds like WvW tbh…
snippled
Problem with the obscenely hard hitting skills are a rather small number of skills (backstab, vault, coalescence of ruin and arc divider for example just of the top of my head).
Dire and trailblazer are hardly a problem outside of condimes which talks more about that build problematic than anything else (ghost thief would keep ghostthieving with basically any statcombo that had condidmg).
They could nerf these skills in WvW alone to a reasonable degree(they recently split balance between gamemodes). That way fewer of the uncommon builds would get nuked.
Backstab is and has been a damage loss for a long time, and it has roughly the same damage as True Shot. The level of sacrifice to make Backstab hit as hard as it can is pretty much exactly what rangers can do on Maul – except Maul can be made to hit for 40k whereas the theoretical max on Backstab assuming all the conditional modifiers are met, namely executioner, is 27k on full-zerk idle ele in exotics with no damage reduction. Both share very similar cooldowns.
Arc Divider, Vault, CoR, Electro-Whirl, Headbutt etc. are just HoT powercreep that pushed skill damage coefficients through the roof for no reason.
And Dire/TB are problems on every profession in WvW. TB warrior, druid, scrapper, and burn DH (on top of the mesmer) are all terrifying builds that are very difficult to shut down due to how many hits they can take during their periods of sustain downtime. Mesmer is the most obvious example because it has good stealth and mobility for resets and is most-affected by the sustain, but every other profession benefits just as much, and ghost thieves gain a ton as well from these stat options because this way they won’t die to cleave or can afford a few misplays/take a few hits on what’s already an easy, low-risk build.
snipples
bursting can be brainless but it encourages better play, tanking can be good but encourages bad play.
modifiers rely on stats, so if you nerf the modifier it will require more stats to compensate. that would hurt hybrids by forcing to dump more into a specific stat as opposed to dumping a little.
snipples
snipples
Has nothing to do with stats, which is the funny part.
yes, it does. a pvp condi mes with 1000 condi damage and 0% condi duration is not the same as a condi mes with 2k condi damage with 100% condi duration.
taking a different route…
all you peeps that I quoted, banish the traditional amulet system from your mind for a minute. consider this:
say we get our total amount of attribute points based on what gear we have on. then we can put them into any category we want up to a maximum, maybe in 100 points at a time. so the caps would look something like this:
1500 power, condi damage
1000 for every other stat
perhaps give ascended and legendary bigger bonuses then they already have.
ascended 10% more stats then exotic
legendary 20% more stats then exotic
this would give those players that spent time on getting better gear not just compensation but a big advantage.
caps would not be able to be breached by stats, traits, or food. might works the same.
if modifiers are still out of control after that then take another look at em.
(edited by Stand The Wall.6987)
snipped
I disagree with your comment about bursting being more rewarding of skillful play.
Bursting does in my opinion not encourage better play. In a fight between 2 bursty people it all comes down to a few seconds that matter a lot and the rest of the fight is rather inconsequential.
Between 2 tanky people it comes down to who overall played the best in every situation (or had the best build for the situation) not only a few seconds.
About your ideas for some more modular stat amulets, it is surely better than the sPvP system (stats are way too low in yours btw but the concept). However it just seems like a clunkier less diverse version of what we have right now.
lol if you mess up at any time as a burst class vs another good burst class the fight is over. not so with tanky builds. thought that much was at least obvious.
stats too low lol? when would you ever need more then 3k armor or 29k hp? how is it less diverse. nothing is getting removed. caps don’t make something unplayable, they reduce the totals for all specs. certainly wouldn’t be clunky to me. cant tell you how many times the meta has changed and ive had to buy new armor or runes, only to have to do it again for a different guild. being able to change stats on the fly would be awesome.
lol if you mess up at any time as a burst class vs another good burst class the fight is over. not so with tanky builds. thought that much was at least obvious.
stats too low lol? when would you ever need more then 3k armor or 29k hp? how is it less diverse. nothing is getting removed. caps don’t make something unplayable, they reduce the totals for all specs. certainly wouldn’t be clunky to me. cant tell you how many times the meta has changed and ive had to buy new armor or runes, only to have to do it again for a different guild. being able to change stats on the fly would be awesome.
About burst read trough my previous replay again.
In what you said the total stats would be 2.5k which is even lower than sPvP which is a ridiculous low point. I didn’t say anything about the current stats in WvW. What is clunky is a restriction on only changing stats 100/time instead of the current and restricting how much defensives/offensives one is allowed to pick.
bad ideea
Curently you have food , boosters , tonics in wvw, claim buffs and world bonuses that increase Hp , even the runes that give extra stats, and you want amulets?
Overall you can have
+ 60 all stats from bloodlust
+200 all stats claiming buffs
+10 extra Hp from Robust
+ food and oil
can be up to 500 to 1 single stat bonus and 260 to rest , and you consider amulets would bring balance ?
- 1 to amulets ideea , would imbalance even more
I haven’t read all the replies, but has anyone brought up a possible compromise?
What if you could have the option of using an amulet that has exotic stat combinations that are fixed (otherwise, use only their own gear)?
Players who have ascended gear can still use their gear. Players who want to mix/match/customize can still customize. New players can easily get into the game mode, and older players can toy around with other stat combinations (i.e. I’ve never played condi, but I could certainly try it out at little cost and decide whether I’d like to invest in an ascended set.).
This would obviously upset the economy a bit, but having less start up costs could improve the wvw population a ton.
I haven’t read all the replies, but has anyone brought up a possible compromise?
What if you could have the option of using an amulet that has exotic stat combinations that are fixed (otherwise, use only their own gear)?
Players who have ascended gear can still use their gear. Players who want to mix/match/customize can still customize. New players can easily get into the game mode, and older players can toy around with other stat combinations (i.e. I’ve never played condi, but I could certainly try it out at little cost and decide whether I’d like to invest in an ascended set.).
This would obviously upset the economy a bit, but having less start up costs could improve the wvw population a ton.
That kinda defeats the point. The point was to kill the arbitrary gear grind that WvW has and put everyone on a even field.
That kinda defeats the point. The point was to kill the arbitrary gear grind that WvW has and put everyone on a even field.
There were a few proposals in that regard on the first two pages. But in the end, we cannot have both “freedom of stat choice” and “stat balance”. One will limit the other.
Most of the armor sets in this game are broken(minstrel, dire etc) If they made an amulet system exactly like spvp i wouldn’t shed a tear tbh.
I haven’t read all the replies, but has anyone brought up a possible compromise?
a little ways up I posted a possible compromise. ive already reposted once and I feel like doing so again is spammy.
There were a few proposals in that regard on the first two pages. But in the end, we cannot have both “freedom of stat choice” and “stat balance”. One will limit the other.
when you say “freedom of stat choice” I get it, but at the same time it sounds inaccurate. due to my biased opinion I hear “3k armor 1.5k condi dmg+heal power” or “3.5k power 240% crit damage”.
when you say “freedom of stat choice” I get it, but at the same time it sounds inaccurate. due to my biased opinion I hear “3k armor 1.5k condi dmg+heal power” or “3.5k power 240% crit damage”.
That’s exactly the issue with freedom of choice… It can (and certainly will) generate combinations that can be considerated “brokenly op” which is no good for overall balance.
However, limiting choices is also a pretty poor path imo. Shows how poorly the game is balanced that some combos “cannot” be countered without prohibiting them of existing.
The devs are not going to go the amulet route 4 years into the game so the handful of people, who are too lazy and too cheap to make ascended gear, are happy… Not hard to get any exotics or build up ascended.
Also, the devs are not going to squash everyone’s efforts to get their gear and kill a gold and material sink in the process.
Amulets kill the already way too limited build diversity, and are not a replacement for actually working on improving professions and combat.
Want to pvp without gearing up? Structured pvp is a click away.
(edited by Swagger.1459)
snipples
I feel like at this point youre just repeating yourself without actually reading through anything just so you can get the last word in.
I addressed every point you made in a previous post.
snipples
I feel like at this point youre just repeating yourself without actually reading through anything just so you can get the last word in.
I addressed every point you made in a previous post.
Just pointing out the facts buddy.
Not affiliated with ArenaNet or NCSOFT. No support is provided.
All assets, page layout, visual style belong to ArenaNet and are used solely to replicate the original design and preserve the original look and feel.
Contact /u/e-scrape-artist on reddit if you encounter a bug.
