Guild Wars 2

I was reading a lot of this threads about nightcapping and whatsoever, because I’m from FS and found myself stopping queuing WvW ’cause of VS superiority in holding the points at night. This was after I woke up at 6am GMT+2 and found the piechart pretty much all green.

I thought that this should be really addressed by Anet because was a really bad design flaw, then I found a sentence that made my day, and I stopped bothering about the problem at all.
“WvW is not PvP. "

It is not balanced, is not fair at all, is not for casual nor for hardcores, since the first can’t make a real impact and the seconds aren’t allowed to express their full potential due to queues and the fact that the system wants to keep WvW “viable” for casuals. You have to be in a guild, therefore needs social intercation, and this social interaction is what makes or brakes the matches. So it’s basically a social challenge, not a game challenge at all.

So, it’s simply not PvP. And now I understood why I naturally quit this activity. If you’re looking for a sensed PvP challenge, then WvW is not for you, nor for me.

I’m pretty sure that when all the guys interested in PvP leave this discussion, it will die bi itself, considering that it’s impossible to balance a thing at IS NOT MEANT to be balanced. It’s Pve, we all know it a way or another.

PvP = Player vs Player. Yes, WvW is PvP, and I love it.

Are you forgetting that players fight other players in WvW?

I play in Far Shiverpeaks to…and i know VS and hate them for capping 100% of the map.
I also hate the hours and hours and hours of queue WvW has.
ButkittenWvW is just to awesome not to do.

Your opinion is your opinion, i dont share your opinion in any way.

Time will balance servers, something Far Shiver can do to prevent the french from capping our lands at night is inviting other time zone players/guilds.

it is the only way to make WvW fair.
But even then things can change real fast, fighting 2 servers at once means losing ground, so yes WvW isnt fair it was never intended to be fair.

But it can be balanced in the way that you dont wake up and lost 100% of your lands

I migrated to USA today, to a server that has 24/7 WvW going on and i might not come back to Europe, unless we have 24/7 WvW servers going.

The OP needs to define what he means by PvP because, in my view, almost everything in WvW is PvP oriented.

Who’s been screwing with my medicine.

Hey OP ya know an attitude like that is why your server is probably losing. People who “Just give up” because they are losing so much are a big cause of your servers troubles.

As mentioned already, yes it is PvP. And no one said WvW was fair, since when is open war ever fair? If you’re the underdog, find a way to beat them, don’t mope and whine on the forums about unfairness.

WvW is balanced just cause other servers have different time zones or better servers does not mean its not just cause you lose dont mean to cry not like you really gain anything for this… people lose cause they always follow the zerg get in a organized grp and see what they do… learn to WvW just cause you are outnumbered doesnt mean you are screwed split your zerg take different points will cause their zerg to split witch in a way will make the numbers more even when you fight them…

Mog.1589:

Hey OP ya know an attitude like that is why your server is probably losing. People who “Just give up” because they are losing so much are a big cause of your servers troubles.

This.

When people are losing WvWvW, they either leave WvWvW or don’t queue in the first place.

When people are winning WvWvW, they remain in queue, or stay in WvWvW.

The result? You hand the winning server an overwhelming victory, rather than staying and trying to fight tooth and nail to regain ground.

Sorry, I’ll define better PvP from my PoV.

While the definition of PvP is realted to the possibility of engaging combat with other players, it’s not really PvP if it’s not at least a bit balanced. This comes probably from my long story in WoW as an arena player, far away from being balanced but still a lot more balanced than any PvP aspect of the game actually.

For sure I can call “PvP” ganking a low lvl player 10v1, but if a game gives only this kind of PvP, I wouldn’t dare to say that that particular game has a PvP ascpet inside it.

Stated this, I find WvW not enough balanced to be called PvP, or at least Competitive PvP. Maybe it’s my fault, but when a game company says it want to balance something with a matchmaking system I always think of something “balanced”. But WvW isn’t, so I find myself pretty disappointed because WvW is not what I expected, a PvP Balanced aspect of the game.

And yes, maybe I’m a bit of the cause of my server losing, but I’m not really interested in a match I can’t win if I don’t go around search for some guild that plays in different hours. Tell me really if you think that searching for guilds to play at nighttime is “PvP”. No it’s not, it’s some social interaction, not a “game” (as a classic definition) at all.

Zanko.9801:

I was reading a lot of this threads about nightcapping and whatsoever, because I’m from FS and found myself stopping queuing WvW ’cause of VS superiority in holding the points at night. This was after I woke up at 6am GMT+2 and found the piechart pretty much all green.

I thought that this should be really addressed by Anet because was a really bad design flaw, then I found a sentence that made my day, and I stopped bothering about the problem at all.
“WvW is not PvP. "

It is not balanced, is not fair at all, is not for casual nor for hardcores, since the first can’t make a real impact and the seconds aren’t allowed to express their full potential due to queues and the fact that the system wants to keep WvW “viable” for casuals. You have to be in a guild, therefore needs social intercation, and this social interaction is what makes or brakes the matches. So it’s basically a social challenge, not a game challenge at all.

So, it’s simply not PvP. And now I understood why I naturally quit this activity. If you’re looking for a sensed PvP challenge, then WvW is not for you, nor for me.

I’m pretty sure that when all the guys interested in PvP leave this discussion, it will die bi itself, considering that it’s impossible to balance a thing at IS NOT MEANT to be balanced. It’s Pve, we all know it a way or another.

It’s not pve nor pvp, it’s WvW.

It is a persistent war about taking control of a map, it’s like a board game without ending.

You cannot compare and it’s normal for players who like classic pvp arenas like 5v5 to hate it. Why?

Simply because pvp arenas requires player skill, mastering your character and is a highly rewarding mode, small investment for fast pleasure, like MOBA games or FPS.

On the other hand, WvW requires organization, guilds, map-awareness, strategy, group-skill (being able to follow your leaders, while managing your character well enough to optimize the results of your attacks or defenses) and is less rewarding if you play solo, the only way to play WvW is with a team, a vocal chat and a viable strategy based on alliances and long-term. If you can manage to get all these components, then the reward will be exceptional, sharing the happiness of a big victory after some hours defending a point with your teammates is great and happens only in WvW (and on a smaller scale during big PVE events, the pleasure is similar but far less durable).

Zanko, your view of PvP seems to me limited to dueling and X on X fights. Realm v Realm, & world v world is certainly players fighting players however this game requires strategy, tactics and team coordination to win. This is much different than optimizing gear, your spec, and seeing how fast and coordinated your fingers are.

If your looking for a challenge in the gear prepping and reaction time of your fingers sure small man is the challenge you want, if your looking for a challenge in organization, planning, execution, communication and leadership then perhaps WvW is better. Both are entertaining but certainly each to his own. I personally find the WvW having a more complex and enduring challenge.

Well there is your problem OP, its WvW not Arena. I you want “balanced” PvP hope into the Mists and play structured.

10v1? What did you do run around by yourself? That is NOT the way to play WvW. You are supposed to be grouped up and with other players.

WvWvW is vastly different, yeah its PvP but its vastly different then what you just described. If you do not like it then do not play it.

There is nothing wrong with WvW atm. People are complaining on the forums a lot because there server is getting stomped. They think its because of server pop balance or night capping or what not. Fact is they just did not fight well and they gave up. There is no huge vast difference in pops atm across ANY GW2 server.

I’m possibly the one that said this. It isn’t pvp it is world vs world.

It isn’t competitive pvp either.

It isn’t pve.

It is world vs world.

Theoretically you could win this format without killing another player, and the same goes for the spve. This format could be played without players being able to fight eachother.

A longtime wvw player explained why it isn’t pvp but I’ve been up for almost 8 hours and cannot remember what he said it was before this game was even released.

Having the “option” to fight players doesn’t = pvp.

Think of pvp like a chess game. You can’t win a chess game without killing pieces, you don’t even have an option not to kill those pieces, because it has to happen in order for you even play it.

In wvw and spve you have the option of not even fighting at all and just capping objectives really.

This is not waht the long player of the format said to me, he was using the large numbers and and the fact that its server vs server, in a detailed way to say it wasn’t pvp, he was one that wanted wvw in rift, while I was one wanting pvp.

I totally agree with the above posters, it’s something different and the only thing I wanted to point out is that for the players like me who loves PvP like XvX arenas or something Like Rated BG in WoW, probably they should stop searching in WvW feature that it’s not meant to have.

Zanko.9801:

Sorry, I’ll define better PvP from my PoV.

While the definition of PvP is realted to the possibility of engaging combat with other players, it’s not really PvP if it’s not at least a bit balanced. This comes probably from my long story in WoW as an arena player, far away from being balanced but still a lot more balanced than any PvP aspect of the game actually.

For sure I can call “PvP” ganking a low lvl player 10v1, but if a game gives only this kind of PvP, I wouldn’t dare to say that that particular game has a PvP ascpet inside it.

Stated this, I find WvW not enough balanced to be called PvP, or at least Competitive PvP. Maybe it’s my fault, but when a game company says it want to balance something with a matchmaking system I always think of something “balanced”. But WvW isn’t, so I find myself pretty disappointed because WvW is not what I expected, a PvP Balanced aspect of the game.

And yes, maybe I’m a bit of the cause of my server losing, but I’m not really interested in a match I can’t win if I don’t go around search for some guild that plays in different hours. Tell me really if you think that searching for guilds to play at nighttime is “PvP”. No it’s not, it’s some social interaction, not a “game” (as a classic definition) at all.

I hate to tell you, but balance has nothing to do with something being PvP or not. Just because the only type of PvP that you want to experience is “balanced PvP” does not mean that the lack of balance makes it no longer PvP.

I only like to drive my car when traffic is clear and I can move at the speed limit. However, that doesn’t mean that my clusterkitten of a commute to and from work isn’t driving too.

Zanko.9801:

I totally agree with the above posters, it’s something different and the only thing I wanted to point out is that for the players like me who loves PvP like XvX arenas or something Like Rated BG in WoW, probably they should stop searching in WvW feature that it’s not meant to have.

That is what sPvP is for.

Zanko.9801:

I totally agree with the above posters, it’s something different and the only thing I wanted to point out is that for the players like me who loves PvP like XvX arenas or something Like Rated BG in WoW, probably they should stop searching in WvW feature that it’s not meant to have.

Cool man hope over into The Heart of the Mists, setup your build and play some sPvP. Hot Join will give you 8v8 matches and if you want to you can get into a tourney team and play some 5v5.

If you can get into a guild that is active in WvW then you may have a good time. I can see how you had it rough by yourself. Really in the end WvW will end being about Guild vs Guild imo.

You jumped around on so many points so I’ll address what I think you mean

• Night time capping on off-peak time is controversial topic, no firm stance from ANet yet however they seem confident that accelerated matchmaking (1 week instead of 2) will balance itself out

• War is not fair

• Joining a guild is easy, there are tons of guilds recruiting, easiest way to find one is by going to guild recruiting forum as casual, this is mmo.. social challenge? There are ton of casual guilds out there

• Hardcore players waiting in queue is something I can agree with because I see bunch of lv.5 running around in circles in WvW all the time or AFKers

• Nothing you listed has valid point of WvW not being PvP activity, if you said something along the lines of WvW being siege vs. siege – otherwise it’s bunch of sheeps running around zerging (not objective) and thinking it’s accomplishing something.. then I would’ve supported you

• WvW is not suppose to be balanced, large portion of WvW methodology comes from daoc where you represent your faction (Server in this case), it’s not about just you. The idea is you help your faction whatever/whenever you can to fight off invaders which expands beyond just in WvW – if some oceanic WvW member transferred over to my server right now, I will gladly help him in anyway I can so we are successful as server to fight off invaders

If you want fair fight then there’s always sPvP/tPvP

Yeah, I understand all of your opinions and find them pretty accurate, but since I think there are a lot fo players like me that find PvP most enjoyable when it’s pretty much balanced, I really had an enlightment when I realized that I was looking for the wrong things. Call me silly, I’d understand that, was pretty a poor prospective by me, still I found that useful and wanted to highligh it.

EDIT: And, if I can say, I thank you for the time I took from you for this discussion and I’m really glad that GW2 as such a community. Last times I played LoL and for the one who experienced that kind of community being in a constructive environment is such a plasure.

Zanko.9801:

Sorry, I’ll define better PvP from my PoV.

While the definition of PvP is realted to the possibility of engaging combat with other players, it’s not really PvP if it’s not at least a bit balanced. This comes probably from my long story in WoW as an arena player, far away from being balanced but still a lot more balanced than any PvP aspect of the game actually.

For sure I can call “PvP” ganking a low lvl player 10v1, but if a game gives only this kind of PvP, I wouldn’t dare to say that that particular game has a PvP ascpet inside it.

Stated this, I find WvW not enough balanced to be called PvP, or at least Competitive PvP. Maybe it’s my fault, but when a game company says it want to balance something with a matchmaking system I always think of something “balanced”. But WvW isn’t, so I find myself pretty disappointed because WvW is not what I expected, a PvP Balanced aspect of the game.

And yes, maybe I’m a bit of the cause of my server losing, but I’m not really interested in a match I can’t win if I don’t go around search for some guild that plays in different hours. Tell me really if you think that searching for guilds to play at nighttime is “PvP”. No it’s not, it’s some social interaction, not a “game” (as a classic definition) at all.

You really expected Anet to balance the WvW in less than a month? Sorry dude that doesnt work like that, they cant control the community… unfortunally too many people just give up when their server is loosing they dont even try, people from dominating servers like to zerg the spawn area of the loosing server…. people from all over the world play at different time zones, many players abuse of transfers to move to the winning side, many players dont care about the server only about thenselves and dont give a kitten to organization… all these variables are not controlled by Anet.

Many problems of WvW PvP style are caused by the players… I am not Anet defender but as far as I could see they have a good plan for balance… but it needs more time. If in the next two months nothing changes so I can complain together with you.

Mog.1589:

Cool man hope over into The Heart of the Mists, setup your build and play some sPvP. Hot Join will give you 8v8 matches and if you want to you can get into a tourney team and play some 5v5.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
We’ve got a comedian XD

PvP means Plaver vs. Player, that’s all. Making up or narrowing definitions is always an option, but doing so limits credibility as well.

This thread should read something more like “WvW is not the sort of PvP which I find enjoyable”.

An aside to all you ship-jumpers and bandwaggoners either not playing cause your team is losing or moving to a dominant server: you’re making your own beds. If you can have patience to get through a few weeks or real matchmaking (the one-day matches didn’t help much with ranking, as mostly everyone just capped and moved on to farm exp/karma because there was no point upgrading or defending for 24 hours and a reset) you might get more fun on the low-end servers since queues won’t be 563847562 hours long.

Edited Title: was “WvW is not PvP”

People who wanted arenas would get in arguments with people who wanted wvw on the rift forums. It was as if one could only be added. However not many of the people who wanted pvp wanted wvw. It went both ways.

And as far as balancing wvw goes, it will never be balanced no matter how well the single proffessions themselves are balanced.

You will always get stuck in crappy scenarios and scenarios where you know you are going to win before you even fight, there’s not much inbetween here, very predictable whose going to win that 6v1, however it can be possible to win this.

It’s just predictable when the numbers are always uneven. They will never be even, it is casual, not competitive. Big numbers (aside with siege) just means there’s too much variable there. One man can press one button on siege, while the rest of the team presses one damage button and a lot of things start dropping before the second skills being pressed when the numbers are big enough.
This is why it isn’t necessarily players vs players but world vs world, you don’t even have to be able to target to do this just aoe them.

It’s like comparing a fist fight to an atom bomb. And calling the atom bomb a fight.

Dont need to be balanced, WwW is tactic/strategic pvp.
but if the idea of design they did tells me something they made poor/bad choices.

1. why no join a small group of hit and run special ease into settings?
2. voip? seriously 2012 and then not offer tools to communicate in groups about tactics?
3, nightcapping makes the game a job not fun gaming.

That and people doing pve and whats up with having npc in a pvp setting, seriously?

Since when did Arena Net said that WvW was balanced?

The “problem” is that some servers (FS) moan because they think their tactics are superior to their opponents (VS), whilst ignoring that their strategy is deficient.

“You win battles by knowing the enemy’s timing, and using a timing which the enemy does not expect.”

WvW is PvP by definition. But using WoW as an example of any kind of balance? Really? Alright well Daoc n Warhammer are the prime example of perfect balance… Really it was soooooooo awesome perfectly balanced! /Sarcasm off…

Anyway WvW is about the persistant experience, you don’t see Daoc, Warhammer not even Planetside 2 (once released) turning off their servers at 2am because of “Normal” people sleeping. (Normal being the typical average Joe. Sleeps 8 Hours, Works 8 Hours than either games or something else) Sometimes I even find myself up at around 4am doing WvW cause of something going on in WvW that just catches me into it.

So while Nightcapping is a bloody pain in thekitten#8230; You can’t really change it by punishing those who do not sleep during the night. People have suggested IP restriction for non EU players but honestly that would not really change anything if anything you’d have people laughing at your for the fact the IP restriction didn’t work.

Currently the only problem I have as an 80 is the repair cost in terms of WvW as it stands the current Risk/Reward is greatly unbalanced. By the fact that if you take 1 keep in WvW you’ll only get about 1-3 silver per keep. While a repair is around 9-20 silver depending on how far gone your armor is.

There is no comparison to this game. WvW is epic. And it is only going to get better as servers are properly balanced. If you don’t like this style of game play something else. This is a exactly what I have been looking for for a long time. There are plenty of games out there that do it different. They do not compare on any level to this game for me.

I don’t like world vs world no matter what game it is. I like competitive pvp. There is none.

Here’s my question, where the hell is the gw1 players thoughts on this?

They probably don’t even bother to come here anymore, because the majority of the top players in guildwars was like kitten this kitten pve/dumbed down/non competitive game types. Just because there is enemy players doesn’t instantly mean it is competitive.

WvW is PvP, but is it PvP on a larger scope than say, structured PvP.

There are normal battles in WvW, yes. Like whenever a force actually mounts an attack…there will be a whole lot of what you would consider “normal” PvP. Players duking it out. And make no mistake, the performance of individual players in these battles can indeed make a difference…albeit not a huge one.

But there is also another…higher form of PvP that drives all these battles, and decides the outcome of the game. This type of PvP takes the form of grand strategy, organization, and luck (yes).

Can your server field more players than the other servers?
Can your server effectively organize those players into something meaningful?
Will your server spend the resources necessary to defend and take keeps, and will your server utilize them effectively?
Does your server have a solid strategy?

This is the type of PvP that decides who wins. It may not be as glamorous as the actual battles…but believe me, unless you’re going against a server with a massive population advantage, it’s the guys talking on vent with their guild and planning strategy that decide who wins and loses WvW.

Zanko.9801:

I totally agree with the above posters, it’s something different and the only thing I wanted to point out is that for the players like me who loves PvP like XvX arenas or something Like Rated BG in WoW, probably they should stop searching in WvW feature that it’s not meant to have.

If your looking for a PVP experience like RBG or arena’s in WoW looking for it in WvW is almost as silly as looking for it in a wow raid. Its a totaly different format and not designed to have 100% team equality all the time. sPvP is where you should be looking for that type of experience. Its not exactly arena or RBG, more of a hybrid of the two but it does have the team parity that WvW often lacks.

Merendel.7128:

If your looking for a PVP experience like RBG or arena’s in WoW

sPvP is where you should be looking for that type of experience.

Wait, what?

Someone hasn’t played this title for very long. When i say title I mean you haven’t really played guildwars. If you did you wouldn’t mention wow, but would mention guildwars.

The second line is just sad. If spvp was what we were looking for do you think we’d be saying what we are looking for is non existant? Spvp is so casual compared to guildwars it’s not even a comparison on which is an esport and which isn’t.

It’s not even a matter of discussion, there is nothing to discuss here.

Phara Miu.2816

so yes WvW isnt fair it was never intended to be fair.

Mog.1589

Hey OP ya know an attitude like that is why your server is probably losing. People who “Just give up” because they are losing so much are a big cause of your servers troubles.

Veltoss.9135

And no one said WvW was fair, since when is open war ever fair? If you’re the underdog, find a way to beat them, don’t mope and whine on the forums about unfairness.

albi.9518

On the other hand, WvW requires organization, guilds, map-awareness, strategy, group-skill

Chronologist.9782

War is not fair

Thrashbarg.9820

An aside to all you ship-jumpers and bandwaggoners either not playing cause your team is losing or moving to a dominant server: you’re making your own beds.

runeblade.7514

Since when did Arena Net said that WvW was balanced?

Cameirus.8407

“You win battles by knowing the enemy’s timing, and using a timing which the enemy does not expect.”

All you people talking about how WvW isn’t “supposed to be fair” are missing the point entirely. You’re just boasting about having joined a server that has a night crew. Yes, yes. Hooray for you.

The silly part is that your great “accomplishments in strategy” (as you make them sound, and someone even had the gall to quote Miyamoto Musashi) could be countered by your opponents if they decided to employ some chinese gold farmers to just sit there holding the territory during the night. That is how DERPey it is.

But please, don’t mind me. Go ahead and enjoy boasting about winning a game when the other team isn’t even playing. You are big winnars. Herpkitten

WvW wouldn’t be balanced. It’s not “PvP” It was never meant to be. We’ve known this well before launch. I have no idea how this is news to you. It’s epic large scale keep battle siege fights. The only thing that was supposed to be balanced about it was that servers would fight more equally performing servers. That’s obviously not going to happen with the FIRST 1 week match. And the 24 hour matches didn’t tell them anything, no one had time or the interest to even bother upgrading their keeps and towers or buy siege equipment when it was going to reset in a few hours anyways.

Kamos.2897:

Phara Miu.2816

so yes WvW isnt fair it was never intended to be fair.

Mog.1589

Hey OP ya know an attitude like that is why your server is probably losing. People who “Just give up” because they are losing so much are a big cause of your servers troubles.

Veltoss.9135

And no one said WvW was fair, since when is open war ever fair? If you’re the underdog, find a way to beat them, don’t mope and whine on the forums about unfairness.

albi.9518

On the other hand, WvW requires organization, guilds, map-awareness, strategy, group-skill

Chronologist.9782

War is not fair

Thrashbarg.9820

An aside to all you ship-jumpers and bandwaggoners either not playing cause your team is losing or moving to a dominant server: you’re making your own beds.

runeblade.7514

Since when did Arena Net said that WvW was balanced?

Cameirus.8407

“You win battles by knowing the enemy’s timing, and using a timing which the enemy does not expect.”

All you people talking about how WvW isn’t “supposed to be fair” are missing the point entirely. You’re just boasting about having joined a server that has a night crew. Yes, yes. Hooray for you.

The silly part is that your great “accomplishments in strategy” (as you make them sound, and someone even had the gall to quote Miyamoto Musashi) could be countered by your opponents if they decided to employ some chinese gold farmers to just sit there holding the territory during the night. That is how DERPey it is.

But please, don’t mind me. Go ahead and enjoy boasting about winning a game when the other team isn’t even playing. You are big winnars. Herpkitten

actually we get pwned every night, but thats just the way it works, more fun taking it back than holding it, i dont really care who “wins” so long as its fun.

I am sorry, and I don’t mean this disrespectfully, but it is nonsense to say that WvWvW is not “PvP” simply because of imbalances in population. PvP is, by definition, Player vs. Player. If you go into an area where you are fighting other players, then you are, by definition, doing PvP. Suggesting that population imbalances means that you are suddenly not engaging in PvP is simply an invalid argument.

It may not be fun. It may not be fair. It may even be unbalanced in a number of ways (population, class by class, level differences, and so on), but it is most certainly PvP in the purest sense of the word. Making the claim that it is not is just as disingenuous as those claiming that small, controlled PvP matches are “not PvP.”

Argue that population imbalances are making the game less fun for low population servers or that night-capping is unfair, but don’t distract your own position by arguing something that is patently false.