Guild Wars 2

So Anet, when are you planning to nerf this Ghost Thief, that only has Stealth Disruptor trap as a counter?
They are freaking everywhere and you will never see em….
Unless you happen to be lucky having a stealth disruptor trap in you’re inventory + a minimum of 10 supply’s to put down a anti siege weapon to counter permanent stealthing trap machine, and it will only kill him if he’s stupid enough to walk on it, given the situation it’s most likely avoided , as he is watching you as you put it down.

Roaming in WvW is invisible trap wars, thanks to this. Here is the link to the build if you’re unaware about it.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoaVlsMhymYbTwvJw/EHyElfLO0PknDtwLo3zpIAA-TFyCQBFU9Hk9AASkSwwt/QWU+BgjAQ90HcsTBAA-w

Hmm have to agree. They should be able to set traps while stealthed, however once the trap(s) are set off this should break theif stealth like normal. I know DH traps are set off = if stealthed using trapper runes the DH is revealed. The same should apply to all classes/traps. Not sure about rangers but I don’t think traps break their stealth as well.

Traps+Stealth = Needs balancing.

Also add even though i currently play trapper runes on my DH I think traps duration needs a nerf. I can set traps currently that last 10-15mins, this should not be the case. Apart from stealth/seige traps etc that last an hour or until the person dropping them leaves map (which ever is sooner). All other traps should last no longer than 1-5mins MAX, 10-15mins is far too long.

For example I can lay down a ton of traps that do 20k damage and wait for them to be set off by someone. Then I can drop another set of traps straight away because the first ones lasted soo long.

Anyone doubting on it try it and anyone that wants it toned down / nerfed play it !
Then anet will have to nerf it because everyone will use it. +10 sups wars!

Counter Terrorist.7421:

So Anet, when are you planning to nerf this Ghost Thief, that only has Stealth Disruptor trap as a counter?
They are freaking everywhere and you will never see em….
Unless you happen to be lucky having a stealth disruptor trap in you’re inventory + a minimum of 10 supply’s to put down a anti siege weapon to counter permanent stealthing trap machine, and it will only kill him if he’s stupid enough to walk on it, given the situation it’s most likely avoided , as he is watching you as you put it down.

Roaming in WvW is invisible trap wars, thanks to this. Here is the link to the build if you’re unaware about it.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoaVlsMhymYbTwvJw/EHyElfLO0PknDtwLo3zpIAA-TFyCQBFU9Hk9AASkSwwt/QWU+BgjAQ90HcsTBAA-w

I get it, but honestly they are still less of a threat compared to daredevils. Its stupid beyond belief how condi users only have to put a ‘little’ bit of stats into condi to get high dps….whereas with a power build you have to put ‘a ton’ of stats into Power/Precision/Ferocity + might to do high dps. And you may even have to stack might duration ontop of that and focus might stacks. You could go knight’s stats to replace ferocity with toughness as the main stat….but that dents ur power huge amount.

Even if they aren’t invisble, you can’t catch them anyways so….their ‘counter’ item just buys you 30 seconds of alone time while they go ooc and jump back in.

Like i said though, nowhere near the threat of a daredevil.

Daredevil is normally seen I’m personally fine with the state of em they have counter play due to being visible while doing their damage. Ghost Thief is never seen.

Engi, Scrapper and Herald have direct reveal counters. Dragon Hunters and Rangers also have a limited counter ability. The Thief Tripwire and Ranger Spike Trap also work quite well.

In addition, the “Ghost Thief” build can only kill a player if they stay in the area and have crap condi mitigation. The build is a troll build and laughably easy to beat most of the time.

I would add that I believe trap damage should proc a reveal but I also think traps cooldown should start after it is sprung.

Scrapper has a good reveal skill tied to sneak gyro tool belt as well as a random lock up trait that requires a lucky stealth hit, herald has a good reveal skill as well, DH got a useless 1 sec reveal on a trap that’s totally useless and ranger reveal skill requires the target to be selected so the Ghost Thief has to screw up to actually get revealed. It’s true the condition damage they are putting out is not the highest especially if you’re running around in a team comp.
The biggest problem is when their using 2-x amounts of ghost thiefs on single roamers that’s just kittened up, the rest of the professions are stuck with the option of using stealth disruptor trap.

The worst part about running into trap thieves is when you get mid-air immob. Which you can add to the list of bugs that have been in the game since launch.

That list includes, random disconnects from wvw that have nothing to do with your connection or your pc.

The stuck bug that sometimes can be fixed by emoting.

I could go on but you get the picture.

This is not gonna get fixed anytime soon, neither will this build you posted.
Game will be dead before that happens. Actually, game is already dead.

Ghost thief is bad but, Condi evade thief is seriously broken too. Realistically, you can’t hit them from all the evades. If you even try to hit them you heal them immensely. All the while they are pumping out conditions. In sPvP it’s not utterly broken. In WvW, with the additional stats available and especially food like the “Bowl of Orrian Truffle and Meat Stew” it becomes utterly broken.

I roamed on thief a good week and it felt like dire/perplex necro, just EZ mode. I’m use to slow AF necro and being the fat kid in group. Give me stealth and speed, holy hell….can’t imagine ghost thief.

What do we say to good condi mesmers and bunch of permastealth thieves? Not today.

Jk, seriously, never had a problem with them until I ran into 9 people squad of permastealth thieves but that is not something one can encounter everyday on wvw
Don’t like it? Don’t fight it.

DeWolfe.2174:

Ghost thief is bad but, Condi evade thief is seriously broken too. Realistically, you can’t hit them from all the evades. If you even try to hit them you heal them immensely. All the while they are pumping out conditions. In sPvP it’s not utterly broken. In WvW, with the additional stats available and especially food like the “Bowl of Orrian Truffle and Meat Stew” it becomes utterly broken.

I am not sure where you get the immense heal if you try and hit them. If the thief evades an attack he gets about 450 healing. Thats hardly immense. You just have to fight them at range and learn what part of the evade frame is vulnerable (On the DB) from practice. This will ensure you get an attack off everytime. about 50 percent of the evade animation is an evade and the rest they are vulnerable. There then a delay when they hit the ground where they can not evade again right away that you can time for.

If you do that and manage to cut down the number of evades they get overall, in other words do not chain your attacks one after other but time them for that vulnerable period, you will cut their survival down greatly as they can not get vigor. condi cleanse, Ini or heals off that evade if there no evade.

That said if you are a mesmer using clones, a minion master, a ranger with pets the DB thief can take advantage of those for more evades.

Anet should just put some raw damage to the traps, so when it triggers the teef pops out of stealth.

While they may not be OP or a big threat according to some, it should NOT be possible to kill people while BEING 100% in stealth.

Feel free to check the game play of a single Ghost Thief.

Nothing whatsoever will be done to nerf this.

Some months ago a vocal minority complained about this build pointing to trappers runes as the culprit. I pointed out then trappers runes not the issue yet they persisted and the Runes nerfed.

As can clearly be seen from the Video the majority of stealth comes from repeated use of smoke field followed by heartseeker in that field for stealth using the d/p set.

Added to that few if any used traps prior to trappers runes yet even in that video one can see that there only one real trap in the utility adding damage and that much of the damage comes from caltrops, uncathcable or the elite (there very likely respite in there as well for an added trap). I am sure many will suggest . again with little thought , that a damage component be added to all of these skills for a reveal even as we have mesmers/scrappers able to inflict damage from stealth with no repercussions.

This would simply add to the killing of the stealth line as a defense for thieves and or no traps used leading to the need to have more evades in a build which will generate more QQ posts about “perma evade”.

LOL, that is so wrong. I’m gonna make one. And, also, why does the trapper runes invisibility work on WvW traps? That should be restricted to traps related to the build or profession.

Offair.2563:

Anet should just put some raw damage to the traps, so when it triggers the teef pops out of stealth.

While they may not be OP or a big threat according to some, it should NOT be possible to kill people while BEING 100% in stealth.

Inb4 they ignore this sound advice and trap runes take another nerf.

babazhook.6805:

I am not sure where you get the immense heal if you try and hit them. If the thief evades an attack he gets about 450 healing. Thats hardly immense. You just have to fight them at range and learn what part of the evade frame is vulnerable (On the DB) from practice. This will ensure you get an attack off everytime. about 50 percent of the evade animation is an evade and the rest they are vulnerable. There then a delay when they hit the ground where they can not evade again right away that you can time for.

I think he is talking about my specific build (literally as I think he ran into this buzzsaw and we talked about it in game). My version doesn’t run heal on evade since it doesn’t need it but is still OP. That said, hardly anybody else runs it (thankfully) instead they try to get something like Ghost Thief or D/D condi to work which IMO are crap compared to the build he is referencing and Mesmer clone spam.

In fairness, the build does not scale up with other friendlies and is strictly a solo affair. The Mesmer clone spam build is a great skirmish and solo build unlike the evade thief.

“Ghost Thief” as you call it, is useless for anything other than the personal enjoyment of annoying players with it. If they actually die to it that is a testament to either that players lack of skill or experience or both.

nerfing this will risk other ‘legit’ thief builds. this is not gane breaking, it is more of an inconvenience.

You know the funny thing is, this isn’t even the most AIDS thief build in WvW, go get a sigil of draining, then between steal, headshot, distracting daggers & pulmonary impact proceed to roll face across the keyboard…. remember the days when thief took at least a bit of skill… long gone, just like this game mode.

zinkz.7045:

You know the funny thing is, this isn’t even the most AIDS thief build in WvW, go get a sigil of draining, then between steal, headshot, distracting daggers & pulmonary impact proceed to roll face across the keyboard…. remember the days when thief took at least a bit of skill… long gone, just like this game mode.

People these days seem to insist that winning itself is what defines skill rather than the context of how a player won.

Its not even about nerf its a bug fix or a fix for a realy bad desighn. I dont belive this build was ment to do tons of dmage without breaking stealth. Doing damage = no stealth, its a game core desighn, with this build its obviously an over look by A.net. Fix ASAP i dont belive this build match your philosophy of fun.

ITT: Bad player complains about build he either can’t counter or lacks the ability to.

Besides the obvious engi/rev counters etc. This build is really, really bad. It has like two traps that can do really anything and then a CC trap.

You can literally walk away from this build with nearly any escape. It doesn’t need a nerf.

Aidal.4901:

ITT: Bad player complains about build he either can’t counter or lacks the ability to.

Besides the obvious engi/rev counters etc. This build is really, really bad. It has like two traps that can do really anything and then a CC trap.

You can literally walk away from this build with nearly any escape. It doesn’t need a nerf.

You have never met one worth kitten then.

A trapper thief will permaimmobilize you and down you in about 3s and he will never be seen once or have anything show in your combat log. Best case scenario, he pop up 10s later to put a treb on you because he’s so 1337. GG if you meet two or more of them working together.

There is no counter. Even reveal is has a tiny range, by the time you enter the invisible traps the thief will be far away and only return in a second if you actually die.

Dawdler.8521:

Aidal.4901:

ITT: Bad player complains about build he either can’t counter or lacks the ability to.

Besides the obvious engi/rev counters etc. This build is really, really bad. It has like two traps that can do really anything and then a CC trap.

You can literally walk away from this build with nearly any escape. It doesn’t need a nerf.

You have never met one worth kitten then.

A trapper thief will permaimmobilize you and down you in about 3s and he will never be seen once or have anything show in your combat log. Best case scenario, he pop up 10s later to put a treb on you because he’s so 1337. GG if you meet two or more of them working together.

There is no counter. Even reveal is has a tiny range, by the time you enter the invisible traps the thief will be far away and only return in a second if you actually die.

Every condition he applied from stealth and MORE can be applied without stealth and every Immobilize the thief has while stealthed and MORE can be applied without using stealth. If you die in 3 seconds to a Gost theif with its limited Condition access, how well do you fare against a real condition build that can lay down far more condition damage in the same period of time?

babazhook.6805:

Every condition he applied from stealth and MORE can be applied without stealth and every Immobilize the thief has while stealthed and MORE can be applied without using stealth. If you die in 3 seconds to a Gost theif with its limited Condition access, how well do you fare against a real condition build that can lay down far more condition damage in the same period of time?

Probably really bad in most cases, but it doesnt change the fact that I would be able to engage said condition build and probably damage him real bad in return (especially if he also sacrifices sustain for damage) because I can see him and I can damage him and I can counter attacks by dodging, blocking, reflecting, etc. Even the nastiest of condi builds in perplexity mesmers doesnt even come close, you can still try to target them between stealth and anticipate/counter bursts.

A ghost thief is never seen, cannot be damaged unless by pure luck of you anticipating you will be attacked by one while randomly running and having AoE down already and you cannot counter any trap attack other than condi cleanse after the fact.

I dont mind thieves in general. Not even bouncing practicly unhittable daredevils, because I can still fight them.

This just isnt defensible no matter how much you argue or twist it. Permastealth is stupid, it’s always been stupid since GW2 release and when you combine it with traps that doesnt reveal and still deal huge amounts of condi damage it’s the epitome of stupid.

Dawdler.8521:

babazhook.6805:

Every condition he applied from stealth and MORE can be applied without stealth and every Immobilize the thief has while stealthed and MORE can be applied without using stealth. If you die in 3 seconds to a Gost theif with its limited Condition access, how well do you fare against a real condition build that can lay down far more condition damage in the same period of time?

Probably really bad in most cases, but it doesnt change the fact that I would be able to engage said condition build and probably damage him real bad in return (especially if he also sacrifices sustain for damage) because I can see him and I can damage him and I can counter attacks by dodging, blocking, reflecting, etc. Even the nastiest of condi builds in perplexity mesmers doesnt even come close, you can still try to target them between stealth and anticipate/counter bursts.

A ghost thief is never seen, cannot be damaged unless by pure luck of you anticipating you will be attacked by one while randomly running and having AoE down already and you cannot counter any trap attack other than condi cleanse after the fact.

I dont mind thieves in general. Not even bouncing practicly unhittable daredevils, because I can still fight them.

This just isnt defensible no matter how much you argue or twist it. Permastealth is stupid, it’s always been stupid since GW2 release and when you combine it with traps that doesnt reveal and still deal huge amounts of condi damage it’s the epitome of stupid.

Amen. Well said Dawdler.

Dawdler.8521:

babazhook.6805:

Every condition he applied from stealth and MORE can be applied without stealth and every Immobilize the thief has while stealthed and MORE can be applied without using stealth. If you die in 3 seconds to a Gost theif with its limited Condition access, how well do you fare against a real condition build that can lay down far more condition damage in the same period of time?

Probably really bad in most cases, but it doesnt change the fact that I would be able to engage said condition build and probably damage him real bad in return (especially if he also sacrifices sustain for damage) because I can see him and I can damage him and I can counter attacks by dodging, blocking, reflecting, etc. Even the nastiest of condi builds in perplexity mesmers doesnt even come close, you can still try to target them between stealth and anticipate/counter bursts.

A ghost thief is never seen, cannot be damaged unless by pure luck of you anticipating you will be attacked by one while randomly running and having AoE down already and you cannot counter any trap attack other than condi cleanse after the fact.

I dont mind thieves in general. Not even bouncing practicly unhittable daredevils, because I can still fight them.

This just isnt defensible no matter how much you argue or twist it. Permastealth is stupid, it’s always been stupid since GW2 release and when you combine it with traps that doesnt reveal and still deal huge amounts of condi damage it’s the epitome of stupid.

I have yet to die to any of these thieves on any of my toons.There are NOT huge stacks of conditions applied from stealth using traps. You resort to hyperbole or just do not know how to counter.

At most the traps will apply 2 stacks poison 6 stacks bleed IF the thief manages to double up on needle trap. That will not kill anyone that knows how to play. No other thief trap applies conditions. Are you seriously claiming this kills you?

I can trait a thief using p/d to use sneak attack and apply 5 stacks bleed, 6 stacks poison , 4 stacks torment on a single attack. This attack can also apply 5 stacks confusion and a possible 3 more torment . The attack will reveal me but it still done from stealth. Do you die to such attacks and what does “I see you” allow you to do that you can not do if you stepped on a trap? Sneak attack is an attack OUT of stealth.

only one theif trap has an immob. Most classes can break an Immob. Use what you have. Just because the thief hidden does not mean you can not do anything to counter. A Ghost theif must rely on d/p and GS for stealth so generally has no ini. His traps on a 24 second cooldown and only one has conditions. He then must ensure you step in that trap. Use this to your benefit.

babazhook.6805:

Dawdler.8521:

babazhook.6805:

Every condition he applied from stealth and MORE can be applied without stealth and every Immobilize the thief has while stealthed and MORE can be applied without using stealth. If you die in 3 seconds to a Gost theif with its limited Condition access, how well do you fare against a real condition build that can lay down far more condition damage in the same period of time?

Probably really bad in most cases, but it doesnt change the fact that I would be able to engage said condition build and probably damage him real bad in return (especially if he also sacrifices sustain for damage) because I can see him and I can damage him and I can counter attacks by dodging, blocking, reflecting, etc. Even the nastiest of condi builds in perplexity mesmers doesnt even come close, you can still try to target them between stealth and anticipate/counter bursts.

A ghost thief is never seen, cannot be damaged unless by pure luck of you anticipating you will be attacked by one while randomly running and having AoE down already and you cannot counter any trap attack other than condi cleanse after the fact.

I dont mind thieves in general. Not even bouncing practicly unhittable daredevils, because I can still fight them.

This just isnt defensible no matter how much you argue or twist it. Permastealth is stupid, it’s always been stupid since GW2 release and when you combine it with traps that doesnt reveal and still deal huge amounts of condi damage it’s the epitome of stupid.

I have yet to die to any of these thieves on any of my toons.There are NOT huge stacks of conditions applied from stealth using traps. You resort to hyperbole or just do not know how to counter.

At most the traps will apply 2 stacks poison 6 stacks bleed IF the thief manages to double up on needle trap. That will not kill anyone that knows how to play. No other thief trap applies conditions. Are you seriously claiming this kills you?

I can trait a thief using p/d to use sneak attack and apply 5 stacks bleed, 6 stacks poison , 4 stacks torment on a single attack. This attack can also apply 5 stacks confusion and a possible 3 more torment . The attack will reveal me but it still done from stealth. Do you die to such attacks and what does “I see you” allow you to do that you can not do if you stepped on a trap? Sneak attack is an attack OUT of stealth.

only one theif trap has an immob. Most classes can break an Immob. Use what you have. Just because the thief hidden does not mean you can not do anything to counter. A Ghost theif must rely on d/p and GS for stealth so generally has no ini. His traps on a 24 second cooldown and only one has conditions. He then must ensure you step in that trap. Use this to your benefit.

It’s not about being stronk/OP, it’s about being in stealth THE WHOLE TIME while dishing out damage………

babazhook.6805:

I have yet to die to any of these thieves on any of my toons.There are NOT huge stacks of conditions applied from stealth using traps. You resort to hyperbole or just do not know how to counter.

Not huge stacks but it’s the bleeds that kill you mostly, these are covered by vuln, cripple, poison, weakness and confusion so you need a full 5 condition cleanse to not die from the burst. Additionally the ghost thief can still lay mini caltrops from dodging

babazhook.6805:

At most the traps will apply 2 stacks poison 6 stacks bleed IF the thief manages to double up on needle trap. That will not kill anyone that knows how to play. No other thief trap applies conditions. Are you seriously claiming this kills you?

You’re looking at everything in a vacuum, the traps might not stack much but when you combine with traits to apply conditions on steal, when applying poison etc you can stack a descent number of different conditions. As I said above, the bleeds kill you but covering those bleeds means you need a lot of condition cleanse to not die from the burst.

babazhook.6805:

I can trait a thief using p/d to use sneak attack and apply 5 stacks bleed, 6 stacks poison , 4 stacks torment on a single attack. This attack can also apply 5 stacks confusion and a possible 3 more torment . The attack will reveal me but it still done from stealth. Do you die to such attacks and what does “I see you” allow you to do that you can not do if you stepped on a trap? Sneak attack is an attack OUT of stealth.

I cannot believe you’re actually asking this, perhaps you’re a thief main?
To put it simply, a lot of skills require targets to use, not being able to see someone at all while attacking can in some cases render half your skills unusable. That’s without mentioning that not being able to see someone at all prevents you being able to counter attack a lot of the time unless you’re an AoE spamming class like engy or ele.

babazhook.6805:

only one theif trap has an immob. Most classes can break an Immob. Use what you have. Just because the thief hidden does not mean you can not do anything to counter. A Ghost theif must rely on d/p and GS for stealth so generally has no ini. His traps on a 24 second cooldown and only one has conditions. He then must ensure you step in that trap. Use this to your benefit.

Personally I don’t die to ghost thieves, I bring enough cleanse (ty necros) to cleanse all the conditions and have enough stun breaks. However it isn’t fun being dogged by one of these all the way across a border till you either run in a tower or they get bored. It also isn’t a fun fight for those with low or with situational cleanses etc and most ghost thieves will deliberately remember those players they can kill easily and take the whole evening following that player knowing there’s little their prey can do about it without a stealth disruptor trap.

All of the hyperbole used and misinformation spread does not make an argument.

First to the point that conditions do not happen In a vacuum and that a Ghost thief has other means of applying conditions than that one single trap that condition based which one player claimed loaded huge stacks of conditions.

Each of these are limited in use. This not like a Dblossom thief rotating over you over and over again or a Necromancer able to apply conditions with an AA. These condition applications are all on long cooldowns and being able to pull off all at once can only happen against a player that is clueless.

Go and try one of these ghost thieves and try to apply two traps to an enemy and your steal at the same time. It not easily done unless that player is standing there doing nothing.

It has been claimed that multiple condition cleanses needed to deal with these guys. Again more nonsense. I have never died on any toon to one of these guys and play every profession from ranger to warrior from thief to mesmer. I rarely need to even use a condition cleanse.

It has been claimed there no counters to a player that is stealthed and applying damage as one does not have a target. Again untrue. Dodge is a counter. Block is a counter. Condition cleanse is a counter. Resistance is a counter. Porting is a counter. Moving is a counter. None of these require a target.

You then have all manner of AOE counters that require no target such as DH traps/ranger traps/ wells, marks barrage Meteor shower and so on. None require a target.

These Ghost thieves are very limited as to what they can do. When they in an area your first clue is you suddenly have confusion on you or pick up bleeds and poison from a needle trap. You do not just stand there madly swinging. As soon as that happens all you need to do is move in some random direction or dodge to prevent the next attack. You do not even have to cleanse the condition that was applied on you as it too little to kill anyone.

If I am hit by the confusion off steal first, I just move in a different random direction and do not stop moving. It going to be hard for him to keep up to me and lay that next trap. In order to stay stealthed he has to use blinding powder and HS in it which tells me where he is.

If I trigger the trap first then I use my immob break and or evade port in some random direction. If I just stand there in an immob he will try and drop caltrops and or steal to me for confusion. You can anticipate this and block dodge or port.

Are they irritating to play against? Yes but once you realize the nature of the build and its limited ability to harm you, you can just move on. There no NEED to try and kill them. What they count on is you spending time and getting aggravated trying to do so. This very much like all of those other things that can happen in WvW that irritate people such as ganking squads at spawn, guys that leap off towers to focus the tail of a zerg, multiple memsmers and clones, chained fear, peoples parked in camps building ballis and siege to kill people coming form their spawn to flip. We do not need a pile of rules and mechanics changes because a particular build or action is irritating.

I am sorry but am I reading all these right? Are you seriously arguing about the power/dmg/etc of the ghost thief? That build should not exist. No class should hit and stay invis. That is simple. It is not a matter of power or effectivity.

The fact that there are people even trying to defend this garbage tells me a lot about the current state of the game.

There’s the same topic in the thief dedicated part of this forum.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Condi-Stealth-Trapper-Thief/first#post6201411

I guess the two topics could be merged.

According to me the trap thief is not an issue for a player who moves a minimum…
Or the player can break its invisibility (revenant, engineer…gadgets as stealth trap) and it’s possible to kill the trap thief quickely, or he can’t and the combat can be easily avoided, leaving the trap thief quite…useless on a WvW battlefield.

babazhook.6805:

It has been claimed there no counters to a player that is stealthed and applying damage as one does not have a target. Again untrue. Dodge is a counter. Block is a counter. Condition cleanse is a counter. Resistance is a counter. Porting is a counter. Moving is a counter. None of these require a target.

You then have all manner of AOE counters that require no target such as DH traps/ranger traps/ wells, marks barrage Meteor shower and so on. None require a target.

These Ghost thieves are very limited as to what they can do. When they in an area your first clue is you suddenly have confusion on you or pick up bleeds and poison from a needle trap. You do not just stand there madly swinging. As soon as that happens all you need to do is move in some random direction or dodge to prevent the next attack. You do not even have to cleanse the condition that was applied on you as it too little to kill anyone.

If I am hit by the confusion off steal first, I just move in a different random direction and do not stop moving. It going to be hard for him to keep up to me and lay that next trap. In order to stay stealthed he has to use blinding powder and HS in it which tells me where he is.

If I trigger the trap first then I use my immob break and or evade port in some random direction. If I just stand there in an immob he will try and drop caltrops and or steal to me for confusion. You can anticipate this and block dodge or port.

Are they irritating to play against? Yes but once you realize the nature of the build and its limited ability to harm you, you can just move on. There no NEED to try and kill them. What they count on is you spending time and getting aggravated trying to do so. This very much like all of those other things that can happen in WvW that irritate people such as ganking squads at spawn, guys that leap off towers to focus the tail of a zerg, multiple memsmers and clones, chained fear, peoples parked in camps building ballis and siege to kill people coming form their spawn to flip. We do not need a pile of rules and mechanics changes because a particular build or action is irritating.

The problem is already evident from your first paragraph. Your “counters” are defensive counters. Blocking randomly, dodging randomly, moving in a random pattern, applying resistance randomly, none of this can turn the fight in your favor. Stealth in this game is already in a so-so place due to the fact that to defend from it, you have to use random techs or educated guesses, but you can count on stealth being disrupted by ANY player-inflicted direct damage. Even mesmer clones can be banished to prevent damage piling while the mesmer is stealthing, or a scrapper with gyro still gives you the gyro to lock down.

Are they the most dangerous thing out there? I agree with you, not that much. However, this build is a pure advantage against any player. In the midst of a, say 5v5 battle, one ghost thief could potentially lock down multiple persons by using the traps/caltrops and moving around doing damage while you’re focused on the rest of the group. Are you really telling me that you will block, evade at will and move randomly in the hope that you won’t get locked while you’re gettin attacked by other people? That’s nonsense.

Combat in GW2 is in great part about being able to react quickly to situation and read the opponent. If your reaction has to be “run away because you almost can’t hope to defeat it”, then it is superior in terms of strategy. I’m not saying it’s impossible to beat; a lucky Analyze shot, or a good AoE spam on the smoke field might net you a victory against a lowlife troll.

For the same reason, ranger traps now do direct damage to prevent misuse with Rune of the trapper. Maybe i’m forgetting some, but ALL other skills from other professions that deal conditions have at least a tiny speck of direct damage linked to it. (Maybe 1 or 2 fear skills, but eh)

msalakka.4653:

The fact that there are people even trying to defend this garbage tells me a lot about the current state of the game.

They’re not defending the build, that build has been laughed at and trashed in the thief forum already, they’re simply explaining how you’re either afk or you’re really overthinking it if you stand there and get killed by it. Thieves get to stealth from different sources but not passively continuous, some classes get to sleep cozy under a warm blanket of boons, some classes can turn on their passive buttons and yolo across the map until they fall off a ledge. Use what you have.

BordeL.1283:

babazhook.6805:

It has been claimed there no counters to a player that is stealthed and applying damage as one does not have a target. Again untrue. Dodge is a counter. Block is a counter. Condition cleanse is a counter. Resistance is a counter. Porting is a counter. Moving is a counter. None of these require a target.

You then have all manner of AOE counters that require no target such as DH traps/ranger traps/ wells, marks barrage Meteor shower and so on. None require a target.

These Ghost thieves are very limited as to what they can do. When they in an area your first clue is you suddenly have confusion on you or pick up bleeds and poison from a needle trap. You do not just stand there madly swinging. As soon as that happens all you need to do is move in some random direction or dodge to prevent the next attack. You do not even have to cleanse the condition that was applied on you as it too little to kill anyone.

If I am hit by the confusion off steal first, I just move in a different random direction and do not stop moving. It going to be hard for him to keep up to me and lay that next trap. In order to stay stealthed he has to use blinding powder and HS in it which tells me where he is.

If I trigger the trap first then I use my immob break and or evade port in some random direction. If I just stand there in an immob he will try and drop caltrops and or steal to me for confusion. You can anticipate this and block dodge or port.

Are they irritating to play against? Yes but once you realize the nature of the build and its limited ability to harm you, you can just move on. There no NEED to try and kill them. What they count on is you spending time and getting aggravated trying to do so. This very much like all of those other things that can happen in WvW that irritate people such as ganking squads at spawn, guys that leap off towers to focus the tail of a zerg, multiple memsmers and clones, chained fear, peoples parked in camps building ballis and siege to kill people coming form their spawn to flip. We do not need a pile of rules and mechanics changes because a particular build or action is irritating.

The problem is already evident from your first paragraph. Your “counters” are defensive counters. Blocking randomly, dodging randomly, moving in a random pattern, applying resistance randomly, none of this can turn the fight in your favor. Stealth in this game is already in a so-so place due to the fact that to defend from it, you have to use random techs or educated guesses, but you can count on stealth being disrupted by ANY player-inflicted direct damage. Even mesmer clones can be banished to prevent damage piling while the mesmer is stealthing, or a scrapper with gyro still gives you the gyro to lock down.

Are they the most dangerous thing out there? I agree with you, not that much. However, this build is a pure advantage against any player. In the midst of a, say 5v5 battle, one ghost thief could potentially lock down multiple persons by using the traps/caltrops and moving around doing damage while you’re focused on the rest of the group. Are you really telling me that you will block, evade at will and move randomly in the hope that you won’t get locked while you’re gettin attacked by other people? That’s nonsense.

Combat in GW2 is in great part about being able to react quickly to situation and read the opponent. If your reaction has to be “run away because you almost can’t hope to defeat it”, then it is superior in terms of strategy. I’m not saying it’s impossible to beat; a lucky Analyze shot, or a good AoE spam on the smoke field might net you a victory against a lowlife troll.

For the same reason, ranger traps now do direct damage to prevent misuse with Rune of the trapper. Maybe i’m forgetting some, but ALL other skills from other professions that deal conditions have at least a tiny speck of direct damage linked to it. (Maybe 1 or 2 fear skills, but eh)

Defensive counters are counters. We have had people able to attack out of stealth since this game began but apparently this just goes over peoples heads.

When a thief uses SR or DP with HS to set up a stealth so as to do a backstab the player that faces such an attack reacts defensively. They throw up a block, they dodge even as that thief is stealthed. The randomly move about so as to make it harder for a backstab to be set up and minimize the effects.

I can so the same thing with one of these stealthed thieves and the consequences of missing my counter are far less less that what happens against a set up backstab. This is not rocket science. Far more damge comes from a BV initiated backstab followed up with AA attacks then can come from any of these so called Ghost Thieves.

I do not have to see my opponent to counter or mitigate his attack. End of story. They can not kill you if you use a few simple COUNTER measures.

I could not care less if they hard to kill. I can go out and kill 500 other players in the game. it not required I be able to kill everyone. If someone tries to attack , misses and runs back into a tower to save himself after every attack. I do not feel the need to hang at that tower until I am able to kill him . I move on.

Scamp.5296:

LOL, that is so wrong. I’m gonna make one. And, also, why does the trapper runes invisibility work on WvW traps? That should be restricted to traps related to the build or profession.

Warrior runes that give boons for a shout don’t work for Ranger so why do Trapper runes work for Thief.

Your point has been explained to Anet , many times – but apparently no one is listening.

kash.9213:

msalakka.4653:

The fact that there are people even trying to defend this garbage tells me a lot about the current state of the game.

They’re not defending the build, that build has been laughed at and trashed in the thief forum already, they’re simply explaining how you’re either afk or you’re really overthinking it if you stand there and get killed by it. Thieves get to stealth from different sources but not passively continuous, some classes get to sleep cozy under a warm blanket of boons, some classes can turn on their passive buttons and yolo across the map until they fall off a ledge. Use what you have.

At least someone gets it.

kash.9213:

some classes can turn on their passive buttons and yolo across the map until they fall off a ledge.

Guilty.

Dawdler.8521:

A trapper thief will permaimmobilize you

It cannot perma-immobilize even if it reveals. It has two stealthed immobilizes and they have to burn their heal to get that. If a player has any immobilize clear (which is most these days), a thief has no hope of keeping them immobilized. I should know I run a P/P build that has a spammable immobilize.

Dawdler.8521:

and down you in about 3s and he will never be seen once or have anything show in your combat log.

Wrong and VERY wrong. No condi class can kill a player in 3s unless they apply a massive amount of confusion and the player kills themselves. Ghost Thief builds have very limited confusion capability. This assumes the build they are attacking has zero condi clear as well. As for not showing in the combat log, all condi damage is logged.

Dawdler.8521:

Best case scenario, he pop up 10s later to put a treb on you because he’s so 1337. GG if you meet two or more of them working together.

I have and they are easy kills.

Dawdler.8521:

There is no counter. Even reveal is has a tiny range, by the time you enter the invisible traps the thief will be far away and only return in a second if you actually die.

If you want to duel and find out just how much this build sucks, PM me in game. I can melt one with several of my dueling builds. On my evasion thief, I can take on 2+ since their traps get sprung without ever applying condi all the while my build is applying condi. There are relatively spammable abilities that hit stealthed players.

babazhook.6805:

Defensive counters are counters. We have had people able to attack out of stealth since this game began but apparently this just goes over peoples heads.

When a thief uses SR or DP with HS to set up a stealth so as to do a backstab the player that faces such an attack reacts defensively. They throw up a block, they dodge even as that thief is stealthed. The randomly move about so as to make it harder for a backstab to be set up and minimize the effects.

I can so the same thing with one of these stealthed thieves and the consequences of missing my counter are far less less that what happens against a set up backstab. This is not rocket science. Far more damge comes from a BV initiated backstab followed up with AA attacks then can come from any of these so called Ghost Thieves.

I do not have to see my opponent to counter or mitigate his attack. End of story. They can not kill you if you use a few simple COUNTER measures.

I could not care less if they hard to kill. I can go out and kill 500 other players in the game. it not required I be able to kill everyone. If someone tries to attack , misses and runs back into a tower to save himself after every attack. I do not feel the need to hang at that tower until I am able to kill him . I move on.

Maybe it’s my already biased opinion against how stealth works in this game that shows, but there’s a difference between fighting a player that might go in and out of stealth to reposition/set up a burst backstab (where, as you said, you can react defensively considering the 2-5 seconds of stealth) and someone that you can never target for the kitten whole fight. This also means that the only information you get from your enemy is if he’s alive (still hurts you) or dead (downed in front of you) and semi-position from the AoE/fields.

Ghost Thief is the only class that can misuse perma stealth while dealing damage. Maybe it’s situationally used now, but what if in another balance update Anet decides to bring up caltrop damage or make tripwire 5target, etc? Will we say “oh now it’s too strong, ghost thief is wrecking the game”? Better cut the crap while it can’t be utterly abused.

I agree with you that other things need to be balanced, such as uber boonspam; perma booned is in the same category than perma stealth in my book ( if you can protect yourself all day, why not stealth all day), but let us go in the right direction.

Sorry if i make big paragraphs, i get like this when there’s somebody brilliant enough to produce counterarguments. Cheers.

BordeL.1283:

babazhook.6805:

Defensive counters are counters. We have had people able to attack out of stealth since this game began but apparently this just goes over peoples heads.

When a thief uses SR or DP with HS to set up a stealth so as to do a backstab the player that faces such an attack reacts defensively. They throw up a block, they dodge even as that thief is stealthed. The randomly move about so as to make it harder for a backstab to be set up and minimize the effects.

I can so the same thing with one of these stealthed thieves and the consequences of missing my counter are far less less that what happens against a set up backstab. This is not rocket science. Far more damge comes from a BV initiated backstab followed up with AA attacks then can come from any of these so called Ghost Thieves.

I do not have to see my opponent to counter or mitigate his attack. End of story. They can not kill you if you use a few simple COUNTER measures.

I could not care less if they hard to kill. I can go out and kill 500 other players in the game. it not required I be able to kill everyone. If someone tries to attack , misses and runs back into a tower to save himself after every attack. I do not feel the need to hang at that tower until I am able to kill him . I move on.

Maybe it’s my already biased opinion against how stealth works in this game that shows, but there’s a difference between fighting a player that might go in and out of stealth to reposition/set up a burst backstab (where, as you said, you can react defensively considering the 2-5 seconds of stealth) and someone that you can never target for the kitten whole fight. This also means that the only information you get from your enemy is if he’s alive (still hurts you) or dead (downed in front of you) and semi-position from the AoE/fields.

Ghost Thief is the only class that can misuse perma stealth while dealing damage. Maybe it’s situationally used now, but what if in another balance update Anet decides to bring up caltrop damage or make tripwire 5target, etc? Will we say “oh now it’s too strong, ghost thief is wrecking the game”? Better cut the crap while it can’t be utterly abused.

I agree with you that other things need to be balanced, such as uber boonspam; perma booned is in the same category than perma stealth in my book ( if you can protect yourself all day, why not stealth all day), but let us go in the right direction.

Sorry if i make big paragraphs, i get like this when there’s somebody brilliant enough to produce counterarguments. Cheers.

That’s exactly it; why wait until it’s too late to fix something that’s already conceptually broken. Even if not broken in implementation, the fact of the matter (as many have said) is that the ghost thief is imbalanced on the conceptual level.

There needs to be a huge re-balance of boons and conditions and their respective accessibility, too. I think I can speak for most people playing WvW that boons and conditions are in no way balanced at the moment, and neither can be fixed independently of the other or without consideration of the other. We’ve seen boon and condition access proliferate explosively since HoT, and the core game is lagging behind on mechanisms to deal with it. Since a vocal (or once-vocal before quitting) majority of competitive players are arguing that HoT has power-creeped the game in a negative way (even the pro league sPvP players on official GW2 streams have complained during the streams and interviews), it’s also only logical that this come in the form of a mass-nerfing and re-balancing of HoT elites/gear parallel to the core game.

Literally just had a fight with one of these. A thief on BG. It’s so laughable how little damage the condi’s do without additional pressure. I just kept clearing and /sleep tbh. I walked away and he kept trying to no avail. Even during an RP walk away. He then got bored as I saw him stop/ appear for a few seconds and then a quick sic em and he literally panicked as I saw him trying to HS into the BP over and over trying to stealth. I only wish sic em was an aoe reveal like the scrapper one as that would have made it even funnier.

Yea it’s pretty bad they can stay stealthed perm. But they aren’t a threat unless you actually hang around and spam skills when the confusion is on you, which is the main dmg dealer of the build.

This guy was running with the main zerg also so no idea what he actually contributes to fights in a zerg setting with this build.

Shinjiko.1352:

then a quick sic em and he literally panicked as I saw him trying to HS into the BP over and over trying to stealth. I only wish sic em was an aoe reveal like the scrapper one as that would have made it even funnier.

It should be. More abilities should proc a forced reveal. Stealth in the game isn’t broken but the general lack of counter play is. Fortunately ANet seems to be adding a bit more here and there. Hopefully they add a bit more.

I think the point is this is bad for the game. Not that it has counters or that it’s not an efficient build or that proficient players with sufficient condi clear can deal with it. That it simply exists is the problem, you want to encourage new players to try WvW.

You get new players coming out to WvW and running into a duo of 2 thieves with this spec. Do you think that player wants to return to WvW? He just ran around getting a bucket load of condis on him from some players he never saw. Then fell over dead.

This is the important part, in a game that encourages “active combat”. Where’s the play/counterplay in a fight where you see neither of your 2 opponents the whole fight and eventually fall over from condi spam? How is this encouraging new players to try WvW?

In a fight with 2 ppl that are visible at least a part of the time, even the newbiest WvW player can ‘play his hand’ so to speak and try to land his skills. He gets to engage in the combat, and interact with his adversaries.

Straegen.2938:

Shinjiko.1352:

then a quick sic em and he literally panicked as I saw him trying to HS into the BP over and over trying to stealth. I only wish sic em was an aoe reveal like the scrapper one as that would have made it even funnier.

It should be. More abilities should proc a forced reveal. Stealth in the game isn’t broken but the general lack of counter play is. Fortunately ANet seems to be adding a bit more here and there. Hopefully they add a bit more.

It’s tough. On one side of the fence putting in more revealed shuts down the core thief pretty much entirely, since the core profession gets its cleanses, heals, mitigation, initiative, and overall deception and viability from stealth (largely SA traitline, no longer necessary since DrD replaces and does better than literally everything in SA). Unless the core thief gets a substantial rework and the new elite enables stealth-less play without just spamming evades like DrD, asking for more things to reveal the thief innately over-punishes the class.

On the other, stealth as a whole is out of control (now huge durations on engineer with tanky gyros that punish killing them), and frankly, more revealed is arguably a necessary addition to the game in concept with classes that don’t depend on it getting huge power spikes.

I think traps should just have a damage component and reveal a stealthed thief, since thief traps are awful in general in respect to their radius/hitbox; they could take on solid power coefficients without issue and give sPvP thief a little better point control or fight assistance without needing to be there to engage in a fight.

BordeL.1283:

babazhook.6805:

Defensive counters are counters. We have had people able to attack out of stealth since this game began but apparently this just goes over peoples heads.

When a thief uses SR or DP with HS to set up a stealth so as to do a backstab the player that faces such an attack reacts defensively. They throw up a block, they dodge even as that thief is stealthed. The randomly move about so as to make it harder for a backstab to be set up and minimize the effects.

I can so the same thing with one of these stealthed thieves and the consequences of missing my counter are far less less that what happens against a set up backstab. This is not rocket science. Far more damge comes from a BV initiated backstab followed up with AA attacks then can come from any of these so called Ghost Thieves.

I do not have to see my opponent to counter or mitigate his attack. End of story. They can not kill you if you use a few simple COUNTER measures.

I could not care less if they hard to kill. I can go out and kill 500 other players in the game. it not required I be able to kill everyone. If someone tries to attack , misses and runs back into a tower to save himself after every attack. I do not feel the need to hang at that tower until I am able to kill him . I move on.

Maybe it’s my already biased opinion against how stealth works in this game that shows, but there’s a difference between fighting a player that might go in and out of stealth to reposition/set up a burst backstab (where, as you said, you can react defensively considering the 2-5 seconds of stealth) and someone that you can never target for the kitten whole fight. This also means that the only information you get from your enemy is if he’s alive (still hurts you) or dead (downed in front of you) and semi-position from the AoE/fields.

Ghost Thief is the only class that can misuse perma stealth while dealing damage. Maybe it’s situationally used now, but what if in another balance update Anet decides to bring up caltrop damage or make tripwire 5target, etc? Will we say “oh now it’s too strong, ghost thief is wrecking the game”? Better cut the crap while it can’t be utterly abused.

I agree with you that other things need to be balanced, such as uber boonspam; perma booned is in the same category than perma stealth in my book ( if you can protect yourself all day, why not stealth all day), but let us go in the right direction.

Sorry if i make big paragraphs, i get like this when there’s somebody brilliant enough to produce counterarguments. Cheers.

My issue is the “fixes” tend to be knee jerk reactions in response to overblown player complaints about a specfic build which has ripple effects on all other builds. This then leads to fewer and fewer builds that become playable or it leads to one class playing exactly like the next.

I prefer WvW over PvP for that reason.

This does not mean rebalance efforts not needed in WvW. I just feel the priority should be the builds classes skills and utilities that are OP in game terms which Ghost thief certainly is not.

I also take issue with people who really do not understand these builds and what makes them fucntion. As example the claim that it all down to “trappers runes” when in fact it d/p and HS that gets the bulk of the stealth. The runes and or traps then get nerfed to uselessness , the problem remains and we then get just another group of skills or runes that no one uses.

There is in fact only one thief trap that directly has conditions added from stealth and the number of conditions added (3 bleed one poison) is insignificant in game terms yet people focus on those traps and those runes as the issue.