Guild Wars 2

Topic speaks for itself. From 100 to dead real quick. Torment, burning, bleeding, confusion, dead. I have no problem with condition damage being powerful, it SHOULD BE. What SHOULDN’T be is the overwhelming lack of condi removal on all but 1-2 classes. This comes from someone who plays cheese mesmer condi build, cheese engie condi build, even ranger cheese condi build. There’s too much conditions being applied and not enough condition removal.

Zera.8907:

Topic speaks for itself. From 100 to dead real quick. Torment, burning, bleeding, confusion, dead. I have no problem with condition damage being powerful, it SHOULD BE. What SHOULDN’T be is the overwhelming lack of condi removal on all but 1-2 classes. This comes from someone who plays cheese mesmer condi build, cheese engie condi build, even ranger cheese condi build. There’s too much conditions being applied and not enough condition removal.

Would it be easy to remove or reduce high conditions than create new skills to remove them?

Remove/Reduce conditions= less than 2 week work to resolve
vs
Create new conditions removal kills/mechanic= 1 year+ work to resolve
?

I disagree.

It is no better or worse then direct damage. What I feel is the problem, are simply specific skills, and every profession has them, that apply abnormally high stack counts of a specific condition.

I often read complaints about conditions, only to find out the one complaining, isn’t utilizing all of the traits or skills avaliable to them to counter what their complaining about.

Your complaint in itself is so broad, it cannot support a real discussion, in my opinion. If you are going to complain about damage your taking, you should list the build your running, thay you are basing your complaint on. Unless you do that, you have no reason to blame design in my opinion. If you list builds with good cleansing, then you can have an argument to make. You could at the very least, list skills you feel are problematic, and suggest how they compare to equivalent direct damage skills.

As I see it the problem isn’t conditions, it is damage out put as a whole. Direct damage is no higher or lower then condition damage out put right now.

no. The problem isnt conditions. The problem lies in the fact that the majority of players are stuck in the ‘power’ syndrome, where they try to squeeze every single once of power dmg out of their spec. To do this, they sacrifice condi-clear.

Its their own fault they don’t bring condi-clear. This is why you do not see an uproar in spvp, as folks there will bring condi-clear…

I agree with Mulzi. It’s going to take a while for players to shift their mindset. The Resistance boon is an added helping hand.

mulzi.8273:

no. The problem isnt conditions. The problem lies in the fact that the majority of players are stuck in the ‘power’ syndrome, where they try to squeeze every single once of power dmg out of their spec. To do this, they sacrifice condi-clear.

Its their own fault they don’t bring condi-clear. This is why you do not see an uproar in spvp, as folks there will bring condi-clear…

I always thought for PvP we didn’t care as much because they can’t use perplexity runes ontop of toxic stones and rare veggie pizzas, then again it could just be me that enjoys that.

I will never understand why people hate conditions so much…

mulzi.8273:

no. The problem isnt conditions. The problem lies in the fact that the majority of players are stuck in the ‘power’ syndrome, where they try to squeeze every single once of power dmg out of their spec. To do this, they sacrifice condi-clear.

Its their own fault they don’t bring condi-clear. This is why you do not see an uproar in spvp, as folks there will bring condi-clear…

Yeah because everything available in WvWvW is also available in sPvP. >.>

TheLastNobody.8319:

I will never understand why people hate conditions so much…

• Conditions ignore toughness
• You don’t need ferocity or precision, so why not go full dire
• At this moment condition burst comes pretty close to power burst
• 40% condition duration foods (increase and decrease)
• The PvE changes that bleed into WvW and SPvP (also vice versa, but I don’t play PvE so not sure how much of an impact it makes)
• Perplexity runes, 5 confusion stacks every 15 seconds
• Passive gameplay of applying conditions then turtling

At the moment the way conditions work is very similar to power builds, you use your big damage skills to burst someone down while only having to worry about how much vitality they have, what conditions should have been was a form of attrition warfare. A condition build should eventually wear down and overpower a power build due to the conditions stacking. Instead we have everyone bursting as if they are running a power build without having to sacrifice vitality or toughness for ferocity or precision. Yes there are some traits that proc on precision but you only need enough precision to make sure they theoretically proc once every CD period. So now you’ve got someone decked out in mostly dire armor with some rabid for that little bit of precision, yet they can still maintain the same DPS output as a power build.

This is only a WvW problem but the 40% condition food is so broken and it feels like I’m the only one that thinks that, FORTY PERCENT. How did anyone think that was a good idea. Another WvW only problem are the perplexity runes, almost every condition build I come across in WvW while roaming is running this. This is a huge damage increase before the recent big patch and even bigger after the patch. Before confusion could have been avoided completely, not the case anymore. There was also a damage bump across conditions in general so they could keep up in PvE. Poison stacks intensity instead of duration, burn turned into a bigger and better version of bleed and confusion does damage without having to attack.

You’ve also got condition builds that will stack conditions on you and go full defensive. The main example being condition mesmers and thieves, mostly due to access to stealth. Although this isn’t a problem in SPvP because constantly stealthing lets the enemy capture the points meanwhile you’re too slow to kill the guy and get +1ed.

My opinions on this is that conditions need a rework, at the moment they are way to similar to power builds without the same risks. I would have no problem with conditions ignoring toughness, that would be a great way to counter bunkers, if they were an attrition build. I’m also not saying that they should revert the changes to conditions back to what they were before. Poison can keep stacking intensity and confusion can do damage without having to attack but at least their coefficients need to be looked at for WvW and SPvP.

I don’t agree with the way how conditions work right now but I also don’t know how I would fix it.

edit: Dire armor is also a WvW only problem.

TheLastNobody.8319:

I will never understand why people hate conditions so much…

Last beta I facerolled a d/d ele – the best anti condi class in the game – as a condi rev without paying even the slightest attention to what he was doing.

@ Cheezestix, your post is very miss I formed if you ask me. Precision is important, as there are many conditions applied on crit. To claim precision isn’t important seems inaccurate as a whole.

As well, claiming it is passive is flat out factually wrong. It is this fact that I feel leads the charge in most of the misinformed hate. You absolutely have to land a skill or function to apply a condition. Exactly as you do direct damage. The difference is direct damage is applied in full, instantly, while condition damage is equivalent damage, but over a period of time. Calling it passive suggest a lack of understanding of how the game actually works. Condition applying skills are literally as easily avoided as direct damage skills.

Though I personally would agree that I wouldn’t ming seeing protection changed to effect condition damage, similarly to how vulnerability was changed to effect it, as an opposite functionality.

CheezeStix.1076:

TheLastNobody.8319:

I will never understand why people hate conditions so much…

• Conditions ignore toughness
• You don’t need ferocity or precision, so why not go full dire
• At this moment condition burst comes pretty close to power burst
• 40% condition duration foods (increase and decrease)
• The PvE changes that bleed into WvW and SPvP (also vice versa, but I don’t play PvE so not sure how much of an impact it makes)
• Perplexity runes, 5 confusion stacks every 15 seconds
• Passive gameplay of applying conditions then turtling

At the moment the way conditions work is very similar to power builds, you use your big damage skills to burst someone down while only having to worry about how much vitality they have, what conditions should have been was a form of attrition warfare. A condition build should eventually wear down and overpower a power build due to the conditions stacking. Instead we have everyone bursting as if they are running a power build without having to sacrifice vitality or toughness for ferocity or precision. Yes there are some traits that proc on precision but you only need enough precision to make sure they theoretically proc once every CD period. So now you’ve got someone decked out in mostly dire armor with some rabid for that little bit of precision, yet they can still maintain the same DPS output as a power build.

This is only a WvW problem but the 40% condition food is so broken and it feels like I’m the only one that thinks that, FORTY PERCENT. How did anyone think that was a good idea. Another WvW only problem are the perplexity runes, almost every condition build I come across in WvW while roaming is running this. This is a huge damage increase before the recent big patch and even bigger after the patch. Before confusion could have been avoided completely, not the case anymore. There was also a damage bump across conditions in general so they could keep up in PvE. Poison stacks intensity instead of duration, burn turned into a bigger and better version of bleed and confusion does damage without having to attack.

You’ve also got condition builds that will stack conditions on you and go full defensive. The main example being condition mesmers and thieves, mostly due to access to stealth. Although this isn’t a problem in SPvP because constantly stealthing lets the enemy capture the points meanwhile you’re too slow to kill the guy and get +1ed.

My opinions on this is that conditions need a rework, at the moment they are way to similar to power builds without the same risks. I would have no problem with conditions ignoring toughness, that would be a great way to counter bunkers, if they were an attrition build. I’m also not saying that they should revert the changes to conditions back to what they were before. Poison can keep stacking intensity and confusion can do damage without having to attack but at least their coefficients need to be looked at for WvW and SPvP.

I don’t agree with the way how conditions work right now but I also don’t know how I would fix it.

edit: Dire armor is also a WvW only problem.

Excellent post and completely agree.

@coglin I’m sorry but precision isn’t really needed on every class to apply conditions. You may need precision for some traits or weapon sigils, but there are passive ways to apply conditions without precision, weapon swaps, on hit/elite use runes, perplexity which is popular is a very good example of this. The majority of your conditions will come from your skills though.

Also conditions are not so easy to dodge when you get hit with an immobilize and then bombed with conditions, only to hit your condition clear which may take 2 or 3 off, randomly, chances are you’re almost dead anyways with the immobilize still on you. Resistance could have been a good way to help counter the increase in power and usage of conditions, sadly it’s been poorly implemented.

Burning damage is a problem they should look at first in toning down, the problem is they probably don’t want to tone it down to bleed levels.

P.S certain armor and runes should have never been introduced to the game, dire, celestial, perplexity.

who needs toughness?

Xenesis.6389:

Also conditions are not so easy to dodge when you get hit with an immobilize and then bombed

Now this is the inaccurate misrepresentation that is problematic. Anyone who suggest that being immobilized and bombed is any worse with conditions then it is with direct damage is simply being unreasonable. You could try to sell that if you offered some facts to support it, but I would like to believe a reasonable player doesn’t by that double standard as an argument.

I play condi ranger because I can’t beat other condi classes on anything else.

If you can’t beat them… join them? As cheesy as it is… it is formidable to fight against unless you’re an ele with DS or GOOD necros/thieves… try out shoutheal warrior/guardian meditation condi cleanse. Those often counter condition classes.

Whilst playing this condi ranger I made though… is it wrong that I can solo an entire BLS in wvw save for the central garri/keep (have not been able to try that yet)?

I don’t know.. mixed opinions. Yes people are still living in the powerhouse raw dmg only era… hell, I even still am not even being able to take out camps at a decent pace on my warrior… so I switch to condi ranger and utterly melt them in probably 40 secs to 1 min… less if they’re all bunched together.

I went condi cause I’m so sick of playing power builds over last couple of years they make me wanna puke.

As far as OP goes:

Runes of Melandru, Lemongrass Poultry, condi duration reducing traits, condi cleansing traits, active condi cleanse abilities and you can say “what conditions ?”

Are you even aware of stat sets such as Valkarie, Soldiers or Sentinels ? Just to name a couple. I really dont understand what your problem is on your mes or engi as I also play both. On my mes I have around 27k health BEFORE the guard stacks + I cleanse on mirror + cleanse on shatter + I control combat via PU and when I want to disengage. On my Engi I have mechalegs traited, add that to melandru and lemongrass and I am basically COMPLETELY IMMUNE to the condis in that trait alone, add rest of my cleansing for the remainign ones. O and incidentally, I run condi on both and LOL at every single last one fotm spec that I kill cause I run cleanses, they dont, so they just basically fall over.

These arent exactly rocket science or new at this point, you run your mouse over something, read the description and a “lightbulb” goes off in your brain. its not an elitist player skill its a human skill that children develop at a very early age called deductive reasoning. Even if you are a legit new player, you should posses this skill as a human being.

Last but not least, Isee nothing wrong with condis being on par with power damage, indeed, to me they are still grosly underpowered. I would like to see them being as OP vs power damage as power damage was to condis before the condi patch, and I would like that to last 3 years just as that did. That is pretty fair.

Might sound rude but then again it is. Stop being stupid. Condi, Power, Sustained. All of them get kittened about at one point or the other. This is WvW not 1 v 1 not (s)PvP. You have food, skills, and sigils to mitigate or ignore condis almost entirely. The thing is no one and I mean no one brings them.

I remember during the burst meta some one suggested running soldiers. Players as usual balked and kittened left and right. Other players said, “If you can’t beat em join em”. Some other player smart enough to see the forest for the trees just adapted by changing gear and builds.

It saddens me to see the community with the most amount of options to counter anything still can’t seem to handle silly things. Eat some lemongrass, get a sigil of generosity or cleansing, use those clear skills, stack vitality, and cut the bs.

• 40% condition duration foods (increase and decrease)

imo thats the true problem, 40% is simply to much, they should remove both foods or tune it down to 10-20%

if you have -40% and the condi player doesnt have +40% its way to easy to win

if you dont have -40% and the condy player has +40% its way to hard to win

i really wonder that there are not alot more theards about how OP that buffod is, everyone that plays condi and use the food can confirm that it has a huge impact on the fight, maybe everyone just blames condi without thinking that condi would not be that good without the bufffood

ps: for for zergfights it doesnt even matter, the aoe condi clean is immense

Conditions have more true DPS than power builds in 1v1 fights. What I mean by this is that they can cut through the sustain of most classes, with the possible exception of d/d celestial ele. Whereas power builds have to rely on large burst skills to break through sustain, condi builds only rely on ccing to apply more conditions – especially with confusion now stupidly strong.

With the majority of conditions being passively applied these days (condi mesmer just have to create a bunch of clones and go into stealth, condi thief goes in and out of stealth to apply condi with unload and steal, most other classes have it on their autoattack), it’s ridiculous how cleansing wasn’t also buffed to counterbalance the condition buffs. Sure, we’re getting condi resistance. Problem is though, that resistance doesn’t last long enough against a condi user. Heck, the best trait you can take against a condi user is Diamond Skin, which can be broken through if there’s enough CC anyway. Especially with a necromancer or thief.

If you’re running in a group under 5 people, just go 3 condi 2 power. Power is still necessary to burst people down faster to get the stomps, but you’ll be surviving a lot more with the condi users due to their natural tankiness.

Reverence.6915:

Conditions have more true DPS than power builds in 1v1 fights.

Got any reasonable damage comparison numbers to support that? Unless you do, simply stating it does mean much. I say this because a few people make this claim, yet I never see any actual evidence posted to support it.

By the way, you claim "passively " applied conditions, Are an issue. Doesn’t hat mean every trait that passively increases direct damage, applies fury, or increases crit chance is equally problematic? Why are the condition ones worse?

How do you cry fowl for one, just to ignore the other?

IMHO the problem is compounded by two factors:
Condis got a strong damage boost which makes some classes now rival former burst specs in Time to Kill. While I agree that for PvE (and perhaps design further down the road, idk) this “unchaining” was necessary, it creates the lopsided meta we now face in WvW. This by itself is not the root of the problem though. Basically it would mean just a race to the kill with the old power specs.

The real kicker comes from a different aspect that many seem to oversee: Immunities and damage avoidance from classes. Before the big patch, these immunities and avoidance plays were necessary for the conditions to do their work. Now, you have damage output comparable to power builds but power builds were never able to run their damage and their immunities in parallel. A power spec that goes stealth or runs shieldblock and whatnot is not doing damage. The condi builds can though and that is where the crux lies.

And how does one defuse this? Hard to tell. Reducing the defensive mechanics will unbalance the power builds just as much, they are the primary counter against spikes after all so that should be a no-go. IF, it needs to be a mechanic that reduces the condi specs output when he goes turtle, so just dumping all condis and then sitting it out can be outplayed by the opponent. And notice the “outplayed” in my words, it should be something the opponent needs to play right, not something automatic.

Mayhaps a sort of “ramp up” damage scale for certain condis (the higher running ones like burning, torment and maybe confusion) where damage application over time is not equal but weaker in the beginning and strongest at the end. That would increase the value of cleanse (which can both be bad and good, has to be looked at carefully). But it would put the condi user on spot where it could be preferable to aggressivly push his condis and secure their runtime by CC rather than go turtle and let it run it’s course. Not an optimal solution I bet but rarely does “optimal” exist.

the only problem with condis is +/- 40% condi duration food.

scerevisiae.1972:

the only problem with condis is +/- 40% condi duration food.

Do you have any damage output numbers that a condition build with that food does more damage then a power based build can put out with its optimal food? Until you provide something like that, you are making nothing more then an unfounded claim.

I personally would like to see some factual numbers, to make this debate based on objective facts versus post that are subjective opinions.

CheezeStix.1076:

TheLastNobody.8319:

I will never understand why people hate conditions so much…

• Conditions ignore toughness
• You don’t need ferocity or precision, so why not go full dire
• At this moment condition burst comes pretty close to power burst
• 40% condition duration foods (increase and decrease)
• The PvE changes that bleed into WvW and SPvP (also vice versa, but I don’t play PvE so not sure how much of an impact it makes)
• Perplexity runes, 5 confusion stacks every 15 seconds
• Passive gameplay of applying conditions then turtling

AND instant STEALTH or BE IN STEALTH while doing this all

coglin.1867:

scerevisiae.1972:

the only problem with condis is +/- 40% condi duration food.

Do you have any damage output numbers that a condition build with that food does more damage then a power based build can put out with its optimal food? Until you provide something like that, you are making nothing more then an unfounded claim.

I personally would like to see some factual numbers, to make this debate based on objective facts versus post that are subjective opinions.

7-1 win ratio in a series of duels against a d/d ele using a rabid rev during the rev beta by essentially rolling my face over the keyboard isn’t a factual number?

Coldtart.4785:

coglin.1867:

scerevisiae.1972:

the only problem with condis is +/- 40% condi duration food.

Do you have any damage output numbers that a condition build with that food does more damage then a power based build can put out with its optimal food? Until you provide something like that, you are making nothing more then an unfounded claim.

I personally would like to see some factual numbers, to make this debate based on objective facts versus post that are subjective opinions.

7-1 win ratio in a series of duels against a d/d ele using a rabid rev during the rev beta by essentially rolling my face over the keyboard isn’t a factual number?

No, not in the least. But thanks for asking. We have no concept of either of your skill levels or builds for that matter. I am a little unclear how someone confuses damage out put capabilities with a dueling record between two players?

Damage output doesn’t tell you how well a build does in 1v1, its record in 1v1 does. And I clearly said I wasn’t paying attention to my enemy so I was playing at skill level of zero.

coglin.1867:

Reverence.6915:

Conditions have more true DPS than power builds in 1v1 fights.

Got any reasonable damage comparison numbers to support that? Unless you do, simply stating it does mean much. I say this because a few people make this claim, yet I never see any actual evidence posted to support it.

By the way, you claim "passively " applied conditions, Are an issue. Doesn’t hat mean every trait that passively increases direct damage, applies fury, or increases crit chance is equally problematic? Why are the condition ones worse?

How do you cry fowl for one, just to ignore the other?

The main difference between condi and power though, is that condi continues ticking at 3-5k damage per tick if not cleansed, whereas power can be completely negated. My mesmer can output nearly 7k damage per tick of condi after 1 rotation (2.5k confusion, 1.5k torment, 1k burning, 500 poison, 1k bleed) if the condis aren’t cleansed and maintain it at that level. Yeah, that’s right, 3 ticks of condi and you’re dead. There’s no power build around that can do that. All power builds allow you to see exactly which burst skills are going to be casted in advance and easily dodged. With condis being applied more or less on autoattacks, this isn’t possible to dodge.

Condi is only affected by 2 things. Condition duration and condition power. Only condition power is affected by a boon – might. Power builds have to maintain and look after their boon rotations far more diligently than a condi build. Condi builds also often take boon removal skills to further counter power builds (see condi shatter mesmers, boon corruption necromancers and boon strip steal thieves). Boon corrupting a condi user doesn’t do much because they don’t rely nearly as much on boons.

Combine both factors – Condi builds applying most of their damage on very passive, easy to apply skills and the fact that they don’t rely nearly as much on boons, means that they are EXTREMELY passive in their play style. That was the entire point of condition builds – to kite people around until they die over a period of time. There’s no kiting anymore, it’s usually just instant death.

It’s obviously different in sPvP where it’s much harder to stack up the conditions due to having less stats and less condition duration buffs, but in WvW, it is horribly broken.

There’s a lot of reasons why solo roaming is dead, but certainly a huge factor is that conditions are way too over powered. They were over powered even before their buff, but they are just broken now. The entire philosophy of DoT builds in the majority of RPGs is to allow kiting, or to lock down kills that are trying to run away from you, usually with large cooldowns to compensate. I really don’t understand why DoTs are so dam easy to apply in GW2.

Reverence.6915:

The main difference between condi and power though, is that condi continues ticking at 3-5k damage per tick if not cleansed, whereas power can be completely negated. My mesmer can output nearly 7k damage per tick of condi after 1 rotation (2.5k confusion, 1.5k torment, 1k burning, 500 poison, 1k bleed) if the condis aren’t cleansed and maintain it at that level. Yeah, that’s right, 3 ticks of condi and you’re dead. There’s no power build around that can do that. All power builds allow you to see exactly which burst skills are going to be casted in advance and easily dodged. With condis being applied more or less on autoattacks, this isn’t possible to dodge.

Yet if the conditions are cleansed, that round is a waste of time. As well, there are passive cleanses in traits. As well, your wrong if you think power builds cannot put that much damage out.

Your claiming you can do that much damage out put by merely spamming auto attack, and using that as an argument to claim condition application skills cannot be dodged?

Mind offering the math on your auto attack alone please?

Do you agree those number are easily cut in half with lemon grass and melandru runes?

Reverence.6915:

Condi is only affected by 2 things. Condition duration and condition power. Only condition power is affected by a boon – might. Power builds have to maintain and look after their boon rotations far more diligently than a condi build. Condi builds also often take boon removal skills to further counter power builds (see condi shatter mesmers, boon corruption necromancers and boon strip steal thieves). Boon corrupting a condi user doesn’t do much because they don’t rely nearly as much on boons.

Effected by 2 stats yes. Yet many stacks of various conditions are applied via crits chance application through traits, sigils, and runes.

You make holes in your argument at the point that you make comments such as suggesting that condition builds take boon stripes while implying power builds do not. You are trying to negate aspects of power builds to suite your argument by claiming they are not used. You cannot use the fact that players use bad builds or leave out helpful aspects of builds to claim conditions need a change. If that were the case, I could simply suggest that every build runes all anti condition food, sigils, runes, traits, heals, and slot 3 anti condition utilities. So lets not start nit picking a opponents build, to try to support our arguments.

On a bit of a side note though, I have pointed out several times that I would like to see protection effect condition damage. I think that would help with how some people view conditions.

Reverence.6915:

Combine both factors – Condi builds applying most of their damage on very passive, easy to apply skills and the fact that they don’t rely nearly as much on boons, means that they are EXTREMELY passive in their play style. That was the entire point of condition builds – to kite people around until they die over a period of time. There’s no kiting anymore, it’s usually just instant death.

I have never said I supported passive applications. I have been very clear in the past that I am against that. the problem is, until now, it was never part of this threads discussions. Most of this thread is generally accusations towards conditions with little to no reason or explanations detailed.

Reverence.6915:

It’s obviously different in sPvP where it’s much harder to stack up the conditions due to having less stats and less condition duration buffs, but in WvW, it is horribly broken.

There’s a lot of reasons why solo roaming is dead, but certainly a huge factor is that conditions are way too over powered. They were over powered even before their buff, but they are just broken now. The entire philosophy of DoT builds in the majority of RPGs is to allow kiting, or to lock down kills that are trying to run away from you, usually with large cooldowns to compensate. I really don’t understand why DoTs are so dam easy to apply in GW2.

Part of the problem here, is this horrible trend of trying to argue damage in a 1 v 1 context in WvW.

In group fights, conditions are neutered significantly. AoE cleansing sees to that. So in many situations, condition are of very little value, yet you call them broken? Perhaps you should stop arguing WvW balance in a 1v1 context?

As to the “majority of rpgs” argument, do a majority of rpgs have large scale WvW or RvR style battles?

What happens in other rpg’s and one versus one battles are not relavent here, lets keep the discussion about this game, and group fights shall we?

Actually, in other RPGs, and I have been playing since UO, condi builds or as they are referred to there DOT builds (DOT=Damage Over Time) are balanced and exactly on par with what is here berserker. In instances where the balancing is too difficult, the devs rotate balance, meaning they intentionally make some builds OP for certain periods of time then let the other builds be OP for a roughly equal amount of time. This is done in both regards to burst AND sustained DPS.

I see nothing wrong with using the 2nd method for balance here, so that condis should not just pass berserkers, but also remain on top for 3 years or so, just like berserker stats.

"coglin

On a bit of a side note though, I have pointed out several times that I would like to see protection effect condition damage. I think that would help with how some people view conditions.

Full support for this.

Also agree that the balancing issues with conditions is more about getting it to work in small numbers vs large numbers. In 1on1 conditions are very strong, in 5vs5 looks about balanced, and in 10+ it tends to become a joke, because of all us guardians aoe cleanse

OP must have had the joy of meeting a condi mesmer

mulzi.8273:

no. The problem isnt conditions. The problem lies in the fact that the majority of players are stuck in the ‘power’ syndrome, where they try to squeeze every single once of power dmg out of their spec. To do this, they sacrifice condi-clear.

Its their own fault they don’t bring condi-clear. This is why you do not see an uproar in spvp, as folks there will bring condi-clear…

No you don’t see the uproar in PvP because game is balanced for that mode, so balanced for 5v5 where you can have guards, eles, shout warriros etc, AOE cleanse and help out classes/builds that have weak condi removal.

As opposed to WvW where condi is not balanced in the slightest, in large groups it is severely underpowered, in 1v1/2v2, it is severely overpowered, and where the imbalance is made much worse because of access to gear that is considered too broken to be even be allowed in PvP like 40% duration food, 10% duration stones, perplexity runes, givers weapons, sigil of Malice, Dire stats, etc.

Which is why so many nabs play condi when roaming in WvW, and one of the reasons why roaming is pretty dead in this game.

well i agree that roaming is pretty dead since the condi rise. Still was one of the thing i most enjoyed in wvw. But i got a solution! simply dont fight condi users XD. If you meet them when roaming, just run away, and possibly wishp them “have fun with your condi cancer”, if we all start avoid people roaming with condi, those people wont be able to play and start trashing their unskilled condi builds.

Its the same thing i am doing in OS when i go duel someone and i notice he is a condi player, i just start jumping and stop fighting.

zinkz.7045:

mulzi.8273:

no. The problem isnt conditions. The problem lies in the fact that the majority of players are stuck in the ‘power’ syndrome, where they try to squeeze every single once of power dmg out of their spec. To do this, they sacrifice condi-clear.

Its their own fault they don’t bring condi-clear. This is why you do not see an uproar in spvp, as folks there will bring condi-clear…

No you don’t see the uproar in PvP because game is balanced for that mode, so balanced for 5v5 where you can have guards, eles, shout warriros etc, AOE cleanse and help out classes/builds that have weak condi removal.

As opposed to WvW where condi is not balanced in the slightest, in large groups it is severely underpowered, in 1v1/2v2, it is severely overpowered, and where the imbalance is made much worse because of access to gear that is considered too broken to be even be allowed in PvP like 40% duration food, 10% duration stones, perplexity runes, givers weapons, sigil of Malice, Dire stats, etc.

Which is why so many nabs play condi when roaming in WvW, and one of the reasons why roaming is pretty dead in this game.

ok, lets say we use this build for an example
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNArYWjc0QnNWdD22A/NOCGKZTv0PdMpDgIgeFfRTA-TFiHAB0+AAaTfAu7Pso6PAcKAsTJoRK/A+IAEAABYmlZZOzAjX8iX8iX8MzZOzZOzZWKAIWWB-w

+50% condi duration with food
+30% confusion duration with runes
+100% condi duration with scepter attacks

lets just use the Auto attack bleeds for now. which in this build total to 12.5s and deals 184 Damage per second per stack for a total of around 2208 over 12s.

now run any build with melandru runes and lemongrass soup which is -65% condition duration.

Now the fun part…
12.5s – 65% = 4.3s ………..

4.3s at 184 damage is about 736 damage per stack!

so where is this OP long lasting condition damage coming from?

I always took a position, for anet to add some extra active condi cleanse to each individual profession, but remove the aoe cleanse.

This would make condis better for large scale where they are still underpowered, while it would make them easier to deal with on small scale.

of course, the QQ will not change because even if a-net made that available most people will not use it and would rather just complain after a trip to the way point anyways.

Brando.1374:

zinkz.7045:

mulzi.8273:

no. The problem isnt conditions. The problem lies in the fact that the majority of players are stuck in the ‘power’ syndrome, where they try to squeeze every single once of power dmg out of their spec. To do this, they sacrifice condi-clear.

Its their own fault they don’t bring condi-clear. This is why you do not see an uproar in spvp, as folks there will bring condi-clear…

No you don’t see the uproar in PvP because game is balanced for that mode, so balanced for 5v5 where you can have guards, eles, shout warriros etc, AOE cleanse and help out classes/builds that have weak condi removal.

As opposed to WvW where condi is not balanced in the slightest, in large groups it is severely underpowered, in 1v1/2v2, it is severely overpowered, and where the imbalance is made much worse because of access to gear that is considered too broken to be even be allowed in PvP like 40% duration food, 10% duration stones, perplexity runes, givers weapons, sigil of Malice, Dire stats, etc.

Which is why so many nabs play condi when roaming in WvW, and one of the reasons why roaming is pretty dead in this game.

ok, lets say we use this build for an example
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNArYWjc0QnNWdD22A/NOCGKZTv0PdMpDgIgeFfRTA-TFiHAB0+AAaTfAu7Pso6PAcKAsTJoRK/A+IAEAABYmlZZOzAjX8iX8iX8MzZOzZOzZWKAIWWB-w

+50% condi duration with food
+30% confusion duration with runes
+100% condi duration with scepter attacks

lets just use the Auto attack bleeds for now. which in this build total to 12.5s and deals 184 Damage per second per stack for a total of around 2208 over 12s.

now run any build with melandru runes and lemongrass soup which is -65% condition duration.

Now the fun part…
12.5s – 65% = 4.3s ………..

4.3s at 184 damage is about 736 damage per stack!

so where is this OP long lasting condition damage coming from?

Actually, with reduced condi duration by 65% you wont even get thatnumber of stacks, cause you need the longer duration for the stacks to build up, it takes a few ticks no matter how you slice and dice it. you need duration to get the extra stacks.

just log onto any condi build in the game, even on same (your main condi) you have some that get applied for as little as 2 secs on some builds on rare occasions, but 4-6 secs often. so with the reduction, the low end duration stacks fall off and dont even make it to the end of that calculation.

anyone can verify this very easy, just go to silverwastes on a condi build pick one of those vet event mobs, kill it while using +40% duration food and note your total stacks and how long it takes them to build up.

then switch to condi damage + magic find instead of the duration, you will notice your total stacks fall off drastically.

1- You can dodge any channeled high damage ability from a power build, you cannot dodge most abilities that apply conditions.
2- Conditions are reapplied very very quickly and easily in comparison to the equivelant channeled high damage abilities which as stated above are easily dodged/evaded.
3- Most power builds have to be very glassy to to make the damage worth it Vs a full Dire/Rabid condi build that has no element of risk in it’s stats.

Bottom line is condi is considerably harder to dodge/evade, condi bursts hits as hard or harder, the ease and frequency at which condis are applied and the tankyness of these builds.

90% of power roamers have to use full zerker so why are condi specs given an advantage before the fight starts with Rabid/Dire combos when they can burst/tick as hard as we can burst/dps.

It’s called crappy balance and it needs to be fixed by having PvE, PvP and WvW damage numbers seperated from each other, PvP is the closest thing to solving this with the amulet system but it just would work, cooldowns of condi skills need to be adjusted in WvW independantly of PvE with Dire armour being removed completly (and the owner of the dire armour being given the option to change the stats of his dire armour or delete it) and the tanky stats of other condition armour brought more in line with zerker and knights stats.

It’s all well and good saying Melandru/Lemon grass reduces condi duration but when the condi ticks for 8k a sec that means nothing especially when the condis are applied again very shortly after that in comparison to a power builds burst cooldowns. The only two classes who are unaffected by the condi meta are Thieves and Elementalists using diamond skin butthat’s ok Ele is the only thing Anet care about and we all know it’s perfectly balanced.

Condi damage does not need to be nerfed, we don’t need more condi removal we just need longer cooldowns on abilities that apply conditions or a global cooldown for cany one condition to be applied again, don’t be stupid and cry for a full condi nerf as it’s not needed.

+1 to removing 40% condition food (both +/-). Also i would think about reverting vulnerability affecting condi damage.

Iavra.8510:

+1 to removing 40% condition food (both +/-). Also i would think about reverting vulnerability affecting condi damage.

As a power build user i would love this but lets be honest it’s just a silly idea, the duration is not the issue, the damage is not the issue and the removal is notthe issue. It’s the continual application and reaplication of conditions and the with which iti s done that is the problem.

GROMIT.7829:

1- You can dodge any channeled high damage ability from a power build, you cannot dodge most abilities that apply conditions.
2- Conditions are reapplied very very quickly and easily in comparison to the equivelant channeled high damage abilities which as stated above are easily dodged/evaded.
3- Most power builds have to be very glassy to to make the damage worth it Vs a full Dire/Rabid condi build that has no element of risk in it’s stats.

None of this statements is true.

1. Lots of condi abilities are telegraphed and can be dodged/avoided just like power attacks. On the other hand, some power builds rely on instant/stealth burst and/or passive procs, just like some condi builds. On both sides there is some stuff, that could need adjustments.

2. In general there is no difference in how often or easy condi or power dmg can be applied. Both types of dmg can be applied with autoattacks, instant/low telegraphed/low cd skills, passive/unavoidable stuff, or skills with high telegraph and/or cooldown.

3. It is true, that the “average” condi build has higher defensive stats than the “average” powerbuild. But a) not every power build (not even the most imo) is full zerk, and some condi player use sinister, and b) survability is not only dependent on vitality and thoughness, but even more on traits/abilities and the time it takes to kill the opponent. Some condi builds (not all ofc) have to give up more defensive traits/skills than a power build (for example trapper ranger – it might be the other way arround for some other classes though). And the most important: power builds have still better burst than condi builds and therefore can kill stuff faster, unless the opponent has zero condi remove and facetanks everything.

Btw, i’m solo roaming in WvW for about a year now (with power builds mostly) and haven’t found this “condi meta” yet. Most (about 60-70% i guess) of my opponents were/are playing power builds.

Oh and +1 to removing the +/- condi duration food. 40% is way too much.

-Output damage to high, easy to face melt with AOE gimmicks and numbers.
-Patch made even harder and almost impossible for some “skilled” players that could take 2-3x their numbers.
- Classes are worthless outside their niche of gimmik builds (no true balance and huge effectivess gap).

coglin.1867:

I disagree.

It is no better or worse then direct damage. What I feel is the problem, are simply specific skills, and every profession has them, that apply abnormally high stack counts of a specific condition…

I agree with that.

Lets look at Burning for example.

How many complained about condi warriors? Even with new condis NONE! What about Mesmer or Engi?

A Zerker Guard can apply more Burns that a Condi Warrior fully traited and specced into burning.

Its not the condis but the condi applying capabilities of certain skills and professions.

coglin.1867:

…

As I see it the problem isn’t conditions, it is damage out put as a whole. Direct damage is no higher or lower then condition damage out put right now.

Warrior’s, for example, direct DPS is way higher than Condi DPS. Condi cleanse on the other hand are inferior to some profession condi applying capabilities and if you go for fully for condi cleanse then your build will struggle to kill anything.

Duration is not the issue. Application method can be up for debate but it doesn’t bother me personally. Lack of REMOVAL is what bothers me. My point of this thread wasn’t about power vs condi, which is better or worse, etc. It’s simply about a lack of condition removal.

Zera.8907:

Duration is not the issue. Application method can be up for debate but it doesn’t bother me personally. Lack of REMOVAL is what bothers me. My point of this thread wasn’t about power vs condi, which is better or worse, etc. It’s simply about a lack of condition removal.

Which is odd since there is an over abundance of condition removal. It is fairly common knowledge that once you have 3+ players together, conditions become neutered

What profession are you claiming has a lack of removal? Link your builds your running.

GROMIT.7829:

1- You can dodge any channeled high damage ability from a power build, you cannot dodge most abilities that apply conditions.

I understand when people fell their argument is week, they often resort to more extreme hyperbole, but you really have to think it would be wise to at least make your statements reasonable, if you desire for your argument to be taken seriously.

Any reasonable player knows condition applying skills are equally as easy to dodge, and have reasonably as many “channel” skills to apply conditions. What is worse, is you do not even make an attempt to offer any evidence to support such a claim. (likely because you are aware of how dishonest such a statement is)

GROMIT.7829:

2- Conditions are reapplied very very quickly and easily in comparison to the equivelant channeled high damage abilities which as stated above are easily dodged/evaded.

Again, your jumping past extremely hyperbole, and right to unreasonable dishonesty. There is no evidence to date, that suggest conditions skills can out pace direct damage build counterparts.

You can apply direct damage back to back, none stop. So yeah, of coarse you can reapply conditions quickly. Why wouldn’t you? Otherwise you would literally do zero damage. That seems irrationally bias to me.

GROMIT.7829:

3- Most power builds have to be very glassy to to make the damage worth it Vs a full Dire/Rabid condi build that has no element of risk in it’s stats.

Again, your making inaccurate claims, with no evidence. Yet the math has already been posted in a hundred previous thread that your wrong. I do find it interesting that you made multiple declarative statements, but appear to have made a solid effort not to present any facts or damage out put comparisons.

GROMIT.7829:

Bottom line is condi is considerably harder to dodge/evade, condi bursts hits as hard or harder, the ease and frequency at which condis are applied and the tankyness of these builds.

Interesting that you make some “bottom line” claims here, then make two statements that previous evidence suggest is false.

GROMIT.7829:

90% of power roamers have to use full zerker so why are condi specs given an advantage before the fight starts with Rabid/Dire combos when they can burst/tick as hard as we can burst/dps.

Got a link to where you draw those metrics from? My experience suggest otherwise. I think I am starting to understand your issue with conditions. I feel you do not actually understand most of the facts, and work off of biased assumption. I mean, I could be wrong, but so far, it appears you make nothing but aggressively declarative statements about aspects in which you appear to have no evidence to support.

GROMIT.7829:

It’s all well and good saying Melandru/Lemon grass reduces condi duration but when the condi ticks for 8k a sec that means nothing especially when the condis are applied again very shortly after that in comparison to a power builds burst cooldowns. The only two classes who are unaffected by the condi meta are Thieves and Elementalists using diamond skin butthat’s ok Ele is the only thing Anet care about and we all know it’s perfectly balanced.

Please, by all means, list the builds you feel are common that consistently tick for 8k damage per second. I am very interested.

GROMIT.7829:

Condi damage does not need to be nerfed, we don’t need more condi removal we just need longer cooldowns on abilities that apply conditions or a global cooldown for cany one condition to be applied again, don’t be stupid and cry for a full condi nerf as it’s not needed.

Longer cool downs? On what skills precisely? Unless you list skills that are problematic, you are literally doing little more then crying for a “conditions” nerf. Now I completely can agree that that certain skills could use a nerf. Then again, some likely need a buff. The problem starts when you blindly make broad claims, and suggest or imply “all” condition skills need a longer cool down.

Tongku.5326:

Brando.1374:

zinkz.7045:

mulzi.8273:

no. The problem isnt conditions. The problem lies in the fact that the majority of players are stuck in the ’power’ syndrome, where they try to squeeze every single once of power dmg out of their spec. To do this, they sacrifice condi-clear.

Its their own fault they don’t bring condi-clear. This is why you do not see an uproar in spvp, as folks there will bring condi-clear...

No you don’t see the uproar in PvP because game is balanced for that mode, so balanced for 5v5 where you can have guards, eles, shout warriros etc, AOE cleanse and help out classes/builds that have weak condi removal.

As opposed to WvW where condi is not balanced in the slightest, in large groups it is severely underpowered, in 1v1/2v2, it is severely overpowered, and where the imbalance is made much worse because of access to gear that is considered too broken to be even be allowed in PvP like 40% duration food, 10% duration stones, perplexity runes, givers weapons, sigil of Malice, Dire stats, etc.

Which is why so many nabs play condi when roaming in WvW, and one of the reasons why roaming is pretty dead in this game.

ok, lets say we use this build for an example
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNArYWjc0QnNWdD22A/NOCGKZTv0PdMpDgIgeFfRTA-TFiHAB0+AAaTfAu7Pso6PAcKAsTJoRK/A+IAEAABYmlZZOzAjX8iX8iX8MzZOzZOzZWKAIWWB-w

+50% condi duration with food
+30% confusion duration with runes
+100% condi duration with scepter attacks

lets just use the Auto attack bleeds for now. which in this build total to 12.5s and deals 184 Damage per second per stack for a total of around 2208 over 12s.

now run any build with melandru runes and lemongrass soup which is -65% condition duration.

Now the fun part...
12.5s - 65% = 4.3s ...........

4.3s at 184 damage is about 736 damage per stack!

so where is this OP long lasting condition damage coming from?

Actually, with reduced condi duration by 65% you wont even get thatnumber of stacks, cause you need the longer duration for the stacks to build up, it takes a few ticks no matter how you slice and dice it. you need duration to get the extra stacks.

just log onto any condi build in the game, even on same (your main condi) you have some that get applied for as little as 2 secs on some builds on rare occasions, but 4-6 secs often. so with the reduction, the low end duration stacks fall off and dont even make it to the end of that calculation.

anyone can verify this very easy, just go to silverwastes on a condi build pick one of those vet event mobs, kill it while using +40% duration food and note your total stacks and how long it takes them to build up.

then switch to condi damage + magic find instead of the duration, you will notice your total stacks fall off drastically.

The point I was trying to make was every since class/build can counter the so called "OP" condition classes by simply reducing the condition duration.

Now if players dont want to adapt then why should other classes/type of damage be nerfed?

Also PVE mobs dont cleanse conditions to the 40% duration increase will be noticed for sure. Not so much in WvW

Brando.1374:

zinkz.7045:

mulzi.8273:

no. The problem isnt conditions. The problem lies in the fact that the majority of players are stuck in the ’power’ syndrome, where they try to squeeze every single once of power dmg out of their spec. To do this, they sacrifice condi-clear.

Its their own fault they don’t bring condi-clear. This is why you do not see an uproar in spvp, as folks there will bring condi-clear...

No you don’t see the uproar in PvP because game is balanced for that mode, so balanced for 5v5 where you can have guards, eles, shout warriros etc, AOE cleanse and help out classes/builds that have weak condi removal.

As opposed to WvW where condi is not balanced in the slightest, in large groups it is severely underpowered, in 1v1/2v2, it is severely overpowered, and where the imbalance is made much worse because of access to gear that is considered too broken to be even be allowed in PvP like 40% duration food, 10% duration stones, perplexity runes, givers weapons, sigil of Malice, Dire stats, etc.

Which is why so many nabs play condi when roaming in WvW, and one of the reasons why roaming is pretty dead in this game.

ok, lets say we use this build for an example
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNArYWjc0QnNWdD22A/NOCGKZTv0PdMpDgIgeFfRTA-TFiHAB0+AAaTfAu7Pso6PAcKAsTJoRK/A+IAEAABYmlZZOzAjX8iX8iX8MzZOzZOzZWKAIWWB-w

+50% condi duration with food
+30% confusion duration with runes
+100% condi duration with scepter attacks

lets just use the Auto attack bleeds for now. which in this build total to 12.5s and deals 184 Damage per second per stack for a total of around 2208 over 12s.

now run any build with melandru runes and lemongrass soup which is -65% condition duration.

Now the fun part...
12.5s - 65% = 4.3s ...........

4.3s at 184 damage is about 736 damage per stack!

so where is this OP long lasting condition damage coming from?

Not really, your maths are wrong, -condie duration and +condie duration work the same, they work additively off the base duration, in your maths you have +condie working off base duration, but then make the -condie working off the entire duration, which is wrong.

So if for example a skill is 5s base duration and you have +40% duration food and your opponent has -40% food, then they cancel each other out on a point per point basis, so the skill stays at 5s.

Which means even if a player decides to go full out to counter condies with both -40% food and melandru runes (which in itself is unreasonable as people have to fight all sorts of builds), they will still reduce condie duration by less than a condie build can increase it by using some of, +40% food, +10% stone, runes like like Balthzaar. krait etc (+45% to their respective condies ), sigil of malice 10%, traits that increase burning or bleedign by 33%, etc.

And of course simply comparing the auto attack is also disingenuous, it is the constant application, the speed of which condies are reapplied, from so many attacks, that damage continues with no effort on the players part, so they can kite, stealth, etc whilst still inflicting thousands of damage. And even an autoattack is a bastion of skilless passive play that can proc a multitude of condies from on crit traits that add burns or bleeds, on crit sigils that add posion, torment, etc, chance on hit from runes like with perplexity to add confusion.

Then there is ease of application, as a generalisation condie damage is easier to apply than power damage, necro is a fine example compare how easy it is to apply condies with scepter to trying to burst someone with a dagger.

And of course now we have burn where even in PvP you can hit 8k ticks, on damage that is supposed to be over time, which is the alleged excuse for being able to have faceroll defensive stats like in the build you gave with 28k HP and 2.9k toughness.

Lastly there is the other issue with this silly -/+ food in WvW, that it also imbalances power builds that rely on immobilize, cripple, chill, etc to land their damage, if they come up against someone with -40% food, then that makes their soft CC weaker and their damage harder to land, if they take +40% food to counter that, then they are become even more susceptible to condies as they can’t have the -40% food, some of the things in this game and WvW especially are a joke...

mulzi.8273:

no. The problem isnt conditions. The problem lies in the fact that the majority of players are stuck in the ‘power’ syndrome, where they try to squeeze every single once of power dmg out of their spec. To do this, they sacrifice condi-clear.

Its their own fault they don’t bring condi-clear. This is why you do not see an uproar in spvp, as folks there will bring condi-clear…

There is a vast difference between 5-10 people & 20-60 people laying down condi’s.

zinkz.7045:

Then there is ease of application, as a generalisation condie damage is easier to apply than power damage, necro is a fine example compare how easy it is to apply condies with scepter to trying to burst someone with a dagger.

Yea it is so hard for power necro to spam 1 in deathshroud and deal 3-4k dmg per hit + dmg from unavoidable procs (chill of death, fire, air) …
Btw if you die to scepter only you are definitely doing something wrong.

Of course condis can be applied easily, but this is the same for direct dmg. But not every single condi will kill you, just like you won’t die to every single power attack, that hits you.

Zera.8907:

Topic speaks for itself. From 100 to dead real quick. Torment, burning, bleeding, confusion, dead. I have no problem with condition damage being powerful, it SHOULD BE. What SHOULDN’T be is the overwhelming lack of condi removal on all but 1-2 classes. This comes from someone who plays cheese mesmer condi build, cheese engie condi build, even ranger cheese condi build. There’s too much conditions being applied and not enough condition removal.

its not just conditions its the whole dumb damage boost they did, you cant down grade conditions while direct damage is still beyond insane..
honestly im not the best thief out there but neither the worst but playing thief in WvW nowadays dont even come near the other zerg even when ur in the middle of your blob u just drop dead in milli seconds..