Guild Wars 2

In small scale WvWvW fights, yeah condition builds can be pretty strong (PU condi Mes is just gross). Anyway, there are a wide range of conditions and they add up to shut down or punish players from even doing basic actions, which means they’ll be taking damage while having trouble dealing it, essentially taking one of the the P’s out of PvP. Toughness and Vitality help with surviving direct damage, conditions ignore toughness and in the current state of things, some condition builds aren’t far behind power builds at the speed that they can kill, condi burst is real. Torment and confusion doing damage regardless (which is soooo stupid) and vulnerability now affecting condition damage, increased stacks and not to mention what’s going on with burning. Some of the stat combinations, consumables, sigils and runes available in PvE and thus WvWvW don’t help the situation either.

I’d like to highlight that the condi ranger builds (especially the trapper being very cool) is most definitely not cheese compared to longbow pew pew.

I have no problems at killing most condi thiefs or trapper ranger with my full melee power ranger as long they try to kill me and don’t just run away. PU Mesmer is definitely a different story …
But this has nothing to do with condis.

Brando.1374:

ok, lets say we use this build for an example
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNArYWjc0QnNWdD22A/NOCGKZTv0PdMpDgIgeFfRTA-TFiHAB0+AAaTfAu7Pso6PAcKAsTJoRK/A+IAEAABYmlZZOzAjX8iX8iX8MzZOzZOzZWKAIWWB-w

+50% condi duration with food
+30% confusion duration with runes
+100% condi duration with scepter attacks

lets just use the Auto attack bleeds for now. which in this build total to 12.5s and deals 184 Damage per second per stack for a total of around 2208 over 12s.

now run any build with melandru runes and lemongrass soup which is -65% condition duration.

Now the fun part…
12.5s – 65% = 4.3s ………..

4.3s at 184 damage is about 736 damage per stack!

so where is this OP long lasting condition damage coming from?

I’m pretty sure that condition duration works only on the base duration and is capped at +100% no matter what, unless special trickery like that scepter trait that changes the base duration directly. So your situation would be more like :
- base 5s bleed increased to 10s from scepter trait.
- condition duration bonus 50% (all) +30% (confusion) from food/runes for a total of +80%
- condition duration malus of 65%
- total bleed duration change = 50-65 = -15%
- total duration of the scepter bleed autoattacks applied = 8.5s (10s – 15%)

8.5s duration is nearly twice the damage you found and much more dangerous then that you think.

Players specced for zerging die to players specced for ganking and then they wonder why they die so fast?

In my opinion, Dire gear is really the only thing that makes conditions feel very strong in smaller-scale fights as it’s harder to counter-pressure something that does potentially it’s max damage for how tanky it is unlike in sPvP where Dire doesn’t exist. I think it’s mainly just low-risk/high-reward using conditions with these circumstances in WvW, which is the problem with a lot of builds in this game. I do like the idea of removing the -/+% condition foods from WvW that others have mentioned.

Burning is a bit strong at the moment as everybody knows, other than that I don’t think damaging conditions are too bad if you have an idea of what you’re doing.

In case you all missed one of the central aims of Anet/GW2, appeal to the casual….

On a personal level I think people running condi builds, generally speaking, genuinely don’t see the issue. In time, when they move to power builds they’ll realise the lameness of running condi and what a crutch it is for most classes (I’m looking at you perplex necros, dire mesmers and thieves). But that’s personal growth and happens gradually. There will always be condi users as there will always be newer players.

I’m sure a few people will take this as an insult, it’s not meant to be, condi’s are a part of the game. However, they have a much lower skill floor (see: WTS builds) than most power builds and in time most condi users will come to see this.

Just lemongrass and corpse jump on sight.

RlyOsim.2497:

condi’s are a part of the game. However, they have a much lower skill floor (see: WTS builds) than most power builds and in time most condi users will come to see this.

Would you mind hashing that out? I never understood this mentality, but I see it a lot. How are skills that apply conditions easier to land then direct damage abilities? I mean, you say “most condition users will come to see this” , but they can only come to see it if it is based on facts. As you state it with such aver, you certainly must be privy to those facts. As I am not, would you mind offering a detailed explanation?

First customer.

Power builds are more active, for the most part you have to hit something to do the damage. Condi builds need to land the initial hit to apply but can then afk and still do damage: see mesmer staff and mesmer/necro sceptre in particular.

You seem irked by the comment and I sense you want to get into pedantics so perhaps instead of me explaining the merits of power vs condi jump into pvp on a power build for your chosen class and spend some time with it.

Experience > arguing with some random on the internet.

dancingmonkey.4902:

RlyOsim.2497:

condi’s are a part of the game. However, they have a much lower skill floor (see: WTS builds) than most power builds and in time most condi users will come to see this.

Would you mind hashing that out? I never understood this mentality, but I see it a lot. How are skills that apply conditions easier to land then direct damage abilities? I mean, you say “most condition users will come to see this” , but they can only come to see it if it is based on facts. As you state it with such aver, you certainly must be privy to those facts. As I am not, would you mind offering a detailed explanation?

You won’t get a detailed answer because they don’t have one.

RlyOsim.2497:

First customer.

Power builds are more active, for the most part you have to hit something to do the damage. Condi builds need to land the initial hit to apply but can then afk and still do damage: see mesmer staff and mesmer/necro sceptre in particular.

You seem irked by the comment and I sense you want to get into pedantics so perhaps instead of me explaining the merits of power vs condi jump into pvp on a power build for your chosen class and spend some time with it.

Experience > arguing with some random on the internet.

This is SO wrong.

A condition build can not just land an attack and go AFK and do any sort of damage. Condition builds need to maintain constant condition pressure so as to maintain enough stacks to do that damage.

A single power attack landed can do 10K plus in damage. I challenge you to show me a Condition based attack that can land a condition that will do 10k in damage as the player goes afk.

Comparison a Thief build for conditions using p/d and one built for power using P/P. Not normal but helps make the point.

A single unload of the p/p in a power build takes a little over 1 second and can easily do 8k in damage.

In order to get that sort of damge from a condition build one needs to hit the enemy multiple times in order to build up enough stacks. Sneak attack using the AA will stack 5 stacks of bleeds. 5 stacks of bleeds will in most builds do around 700 damage per tick. The duration of these bleeds is 4 seconds meaning in total IF not cleansed we have 2800 damage, 8k damage in just over a second is a lot higher then 2800 damage in 4 seconds.

Unload is not any harder to use than sneak attack. Sneak attack can be dodged and blocked just as unload can.

No mesmer staff is going to kill me on a single attack using a condition build. No necromancer weapon using conditions is going to kill me on a single attack. I can and have been killed by a single attack from a power weapon set. In order for condition builds to work they have to be continually loading more stacks of a given condition and more varieties of conditions so as to cover the damage inflicting types. this requires active game play.

I dont mind classes that actively apply their condis with play, what i dont like is the passive dizzying amount of condi spam from mesmer clones. These things should have like a 20% chance to apply their condies.

Having said that burns are over the top and bleeds are probably a bit underpowered. And DPS across the board both condi and power needs to go back to what it was pre stat boost. Especially as they are removing the guard stacks from WvW, DPS thieves with no guard stacks are going to auto explode just from random AoE’s.

Chorazin.4107:

I dont mind classes that actively apply their condis with play, what i dont like is the passive dizzying amount of condi spam from mesmer clones. These things should have like a 20% chance to apply their condies.

Having said that burns are over the top and bleeds are probably a bit underpowered. And DPS across the board both condi and power needs to go back to what it was pre stat boost. Especially as they are removing the guard stacks from WvW, DPS thieves with no guard stacks are going to auto explode just from random AoE’s.

I agree on the mesmer clone issues but that more a specific class balance issue then anything to do with conditions versus power.

With the increase to raw DPS after patch AND the overall hit to health with vitality no longer in the traits, i feel current existing heals may not be enough. This problem made even worse with the loss of healing in those traitlines meaning heals return less health relative to added power.

RlyOsim.2497:

Power builds are more active, for the most part you have to hit something to do the damage. Condi builds need to land the initial hit to apply but can then afk and still do damage: see mesmer staff and mesmer/necro sceptre in particular.

How are power builds more active? I thought you were going to offer an explanation? Yet you only offer subjective opinions. Are you claiming that direct damage skills do less over all damage then an equivalent condition damage skill? If so, isn’t that a bit of a waste of typing time, unless you offer some skills damage comparisons, or some other actual facts to support what your stating?

RlyOsim.2497:

You seem irked by the comment and I sense you want to get into pedantics so perhaps instead of me explaining the merits of power vs condi jump into pvp on a power build for your chosen class and spend some time with it.

I seem irked? What do you base that on? I was eating a slice of pizza, washing it down wit ha good brew, and laughing a bit at a good movie when I typed up my reply. Should I take how you were miles off on your assessment of my mood as a sign of your judgment as I read your post?

Why would I jump into PvP on a power build in any class, in order to participate in a WvW discussion?

Chorazin.4107:

I dont mind classes that actively apply their condis with play, what i dont like is the passive dizzying amount of condi spam from mesmer clones. These things should have like a 20% chance to apply their condies.

Having said that burns are over the top and bleeds are probably a bit underpowered. And DPS across the board both condi and power needs to go back to what it was pre stat boost. Especially as they are removing the guard stacks from WvW, DPS thieves with no guard stacks are going to auto explode just from random AoE’s.

Wait wut?! You’re really complaining about that?

1. Clones are made of paper and should die in 1-2 hits.
2. The conditions they apply are very short usually staff and scepter.
3. They removed every single clone death condition. Yep there is no penalty at all for killing them.
4. Clones are stupid and slow in attack.

As for damage going down, I think it’s fine where it is, you (as in a general you, not targeted at the quoted person) need to be more active in your damage mitigation and timings now.

babazhook.6805:

A single power attack landed can do 10K plus in damage. I challenge you to show me a Condition based attack that can land a condition that will do 10k in damage as the player goes afk.

Occasionally I play condi engi in WvW, if I crit hit someone with pistol 4 from short range I have incendiary ammo up, it procs incendiary powder & the bleed on crit trait, then with the ridiculous stats, food, crystals, sigils, etc you get in WvW then the overall damage for that is about 37k…

Now of course normally you will never reach that damage because that would require them to endure the 3 stacks of burn from the blowtorch for the full 16 seconds without cleansing, and for them to be running no -40% food, etc, however even enduring for say 6 seconds is around 20k damage just from that at around 3.4k damage per second (7 stacks of burning + the bleed), which is beyond ridiculous.

And of course one of the big differences is between me doing that on my engi and a power build that does 10k hit, is my engi is wearing dire with a little bit of rabid, so has ridiculous faceroll defensive stats of 3.1k armour & 24k hp.

Which is why there are so many that play condi when roaming in WvW it is low risk / high reward, and other than the odd thing like a well played diamond skin ele or certain necro builds, always has an advantage, basically much more forgving and generally easymode.

I love high dmg builds, I don’t really care whether they are power or condi, tho I personally prefer power as it suits my playstyle.

To max my dmg in power build, I am paper and my mistakes are punished very quickly.

To max my dmg in condi build, I need condi dmg and precision (for some builds), even those builds that would do more dmg with precision often ignore this stat or just get a piece or two of rabid, the rest is dire. In such a build (my mes), I have just over 2k condi dmg (no stacks), 24.5k HP (no guard stacks) and 3k armour.

There is very little incentive for condi builds to use any other gear than dire, which also provides high survivability. Having two defensive stats on gear with condi dmg as major stat and so few skills/traits that rely on precision is just a bad idea that resulted into condi tanks that can burst you down in no time.

At this point people usually claim that dire is just subpar to rabid in dmg output. Take your ele with diamond skin to wvw and see how many condi players will do any sort of meaningful direct dmg to you. The reality is that vast majority of condi players use full dire cos they have no need to spec for other stats.

zinkz.7045:

babazhook.6805:

A single power attack landed can do 10K plus in damage. I challenge you to show me a Condition based attack that can land a condition that will do 10k in damage as the player goes afk.

Occasionally I play condi engi in WvW, if I crit hit someone with pistol 4 from short range I a have incendiary ammo up, it procs incendiary powder & the bleed on crit trait, then with the ridiculous stats, food, crystals, sigils, etc you get in WvW then the overall damage for that is about 37k…

Now of course normally you will never reach that damage because that would require them to endure the 3 stacks of burn from the blowtorch for the full 16 seconds without cleansing, and for them to be running no -40% food, etc, however even enduring for say 6 seconds is around 20k damage just from that at around 3.4k damage per second (7 stacks of burning + the bleed), which is beyond ridiculous.

And of course one of the big differences is between me doing that on my engi and a power build that does 10k in hit, is my engi iw earing dire with a little bit of rabid, so has ridiculous faceroll defensive stats of 3.1k armour & 24k hp.

Which is why there are so many that play condi when roaming in WvW it is low risk / high reward, and other than the odd thing like a well played diamond skin ele or certain necro builds, always has an advantage, basically much more forgving and generally easymode.

Well most of that damage comes from the Burn and I think burn needs a downgrade in some form. Bleed/poison and even confusion are in a good place.

The reason people play conditions is not so much the damage as it is survival. If you are unable to dodge a power attack or cleanse those conditions you melt pretty quick and vitality/toughness armors help here.

The “easymode” is simply one of perception. It is not easier to inflict damage with a condition build. It is easier to survive what the enemy throws back at you.

The truth is this. It is easier to inflict more damage over a given period of time using a power build which is why people use it.

It is easier to survive using a condition build which is why people use it.

If a power build had the same ability to survive as a condition build few would play Conditions as power builds put out more damage.

If a condition build could pump out more damage then a power build over the same period of time few would play power as condition has more survival.

In WvW the reason there more Condition type roamers is because a power build can not so easily deal with that first attack and will very often lose a fight to a single attack. Condition builds can also deal with a wider variety of enemy builds be it fighting that enemy or escaping the same. Further to that if roaming you do not have the safety of numbers and f you come across 2 or more enemy you are more likley to survive in a condition build.

The “first hit wins” meme when two power builds meet one another is not condusive to success in the long term when roaming. Roamers are not effective if they keep dying and as such while accepting BURN as a condition might be warranted a downtweak this debate is not really about conditions versus power, it is about offense versus defense and in certain aspects of the game one is better with a more defensive build.

That said the defensive advantages the Condition built might have are not due to damage inflicted or “condition versus power”. it to do with the gear selected and in particular dire. This does not mean "dire’ bad for the game as one needs more survival for any DOT build to work and if that survival can not be had through traits or utilities then it will have to come from gear.

Thorp.7982:

In my opinion, Dire gear is really the only thing that makes conditions feel very strong in smaller-scale fights as it’s harder to counter-pressure something that does potentially it’s max damage for how tanky it is unlike in sPvP where Dire doesn’t exist. I think it’s mainly just low-risk/high-reward using conditions with these circumstances in WvW, which is the problem with a lot of builds in this game. I do like the idea of removing the -/+% condition foods from WvW that others have mentioned.

Burning is a bit strong at the moment as everybody knows, other than that I don’t think damaging conditions are too bad if you have an idea of what you’re doing.

There’s a reason Anet stuck the condi traitlines with crit procs. Condi builds sacrifice a lot not going into crit chance on any class.

apharma.3741:

Wait wut?! You’re really complaining about that?

1. Clones are made of paper and should die in 1-2 hits.
2. The conditions they apply are very short usually staff and scepter.
3. They removed every single clone death condition. Yep there is no penalty at all for killing them.
4. Clones are stupid and slow in attack.

It’s all about the cover condis, if i have a condi clear that say removes 2 conditions, i can remove that clone staff hits bleed and vuln. I dont actually make it to the 5 stacks of torment or 8 stacks of confusion i want removed.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

I love high dmg builds, I don’t really care whether they are power or condi, tho I personally prefer power as it suits my playstyle.

To max my dmg in power build, I am paper and my mistakes are punished very quickly.

To max my dmg in condi build, I need condi dmg and precision (for some builds), even those builds that would do more dmg with precision often ignore this stat or just get a piece or two of rabid, the rest is dire. In such a build (my mes), I have just over 2k condi dmg (no stacks), 24.5k HP (no guard stacks) and 3k armour.

There is very little incentive for condi builds to use any other gear than dire, which also provides high survivability. Having two defensive stats on gear with condi dmg as major stat and so few skills/traits that rely on precision is just a bad idea that resulted into condi tanks that can burst you down in no time.

At this point people usually claim that dire is just subpar to rabid in dmg output. Take your ele with diamond skin to wvw and see how many condi players will do any sort of meaningful direct dmg to you. The reality is that vast majority of condi players use full dire cos they have no need to spec for other stats.

The reason most people use dire is because they have to be able to survive longer drawn out battles so as to allow their conditions to work. Without the extra toughness and vitality a condition build is at a distinct disadvantage to a power build.

Now if a class has different means of mitigating damage (such as stealth) the need to use Dire is much less as they can use stealth instead for that survival. I do not think you will find an even distribution of Dire armor use in condition builds across all professions. It likley the most used overall but some professions/builds can make better use out of Rabid/carrion or sinister.

My own thief build that uses conditions is using Shamans . The reason for this is I am relying more on heals than on added toughness to survive as my biggest enemy as a thief is conditions which toughness does not help with.

As a roaming set in WvW i find this very effective. and the added vitality of the set will be especially welcome when applied fortitude is lost.

I suppose I have a little bit of a mixed opinion about condition damage. For power builds, it is entirely possible to trait and gear for absolutely zero condition condition damage.

For condi builds, they could go full into condition damage, well over 2000, and still maintain a solid 1000 power. Furthermore, conditions ignore armor. For someone to be a power build, they have to put points into power, precision, and ferocity. This means they’re going to have to sacrifice vit, toughness, or both.

Condition builds put points into condition damage. That’s it. They’re free to spend the rest on anything they want, and dire builds can have an amazing amount of resistance to power users with both a high amount of vitality and toughness, while that same power user has nothing to counter them. They’re required to sacrifice skills to mitigate condition damage.

While I often play hybrid power/condi for this very reason, I think it’s an incredibly imbalanced design.

TL;DR -
Power user? Better pump that power, precision and ferocity. 3 stats!
Condition user? Pump that condition damage. Put the rest into vit and toughness. Live forever.

When you look at it that way, there is little reason to spec into power anymore. The ferocity nerf didn’t help, either.

zinkz.7045:

babazhook.6805:

A single power attack landed can do 10K plus in damage. I challenge you to show me a Condition based attack that can land a condition that will do 10k in damage as the player goes afk.

Occasionally I play condi engi in WvW, if I crit hit someone with pistol 4 from short range I have incendiary ammo up, it procs incendiary powder & the bleed on crit trait, then with the ridiculous stats, food, crystals, sigils, etc you get in WvW then the overall damage for that is about 37k…

Now of course normally you will never reach that damage because that would require them to endure the 3 stacks of burn from the blowtorch for the full 16 seconds without cleansing, and for them to be running no -40% food, etc, however even enduring for say 6 seconds is around 20k damage just from that at around 3.4k damage per second (7 stacks of burning + the bleed), which is beyond ridiculous.

And of course one of the big differences is between me doing that on my engi and a power build that does 10k hit, is my engi is wearing dire with a little bit of rabid, so has ridiculous faceroll defensive stats of 3.1k armour & 24k hp.

Which is why there are so many that play condi when roaming in WvW it is low risk / high reward, and other than the odd thing like a well played diamond skin ele or certain necro builds, always has an advantage, basically much more forgving and generally easymode.

Yeah, that goes back to what some of us were saying earlier in the thread. The “actively” applied conditions are fine. It is all the traits that “passively” proc further condition.

That does not define conditions as a problem. that defines traits as a problem if you ask me.

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

I suppose I have a little bit of a mixed opinion about condition damage. For power builds, it is entirely possible to trait and gear for absolutely zero condition condition damage.

For condi builds, they could go full into condition damage, well over 2000, and still maintain a solid 1000 power. Furthermore, conditions ignore armor. For someone to be a power build, they have to put points into power, precision, and ferocity. This means they’re going to have to sacrifice vit, toughness, or both.

Condition builds put points into condition damage. That’s it. They’re free to spend the rest on anything they want, and dire builds can have an amazing amount of resistance to power users with both a high amount of vitality and toughness, while that same power user has nothing to counter them. They’re required to sacrifice skills to mitigate condition damage.

While I often play hybrid power/condi for this very reason, I think it’s an incredibly imbalanced design.

TL;DR -
Power user? Better pump that power, precision and ferocity. 3 stats!
Condition user? Pump that condition damage. Put the rest into vit and toughness. Live forever.

When you look at it that way, there is little reason to spec into power anymore. The ferocity nerf didn’t help, either.

This not accurate. There are plenty of Power builds in WvW. You just see fewer roaming for a multitude of reasons. In larger groups the majority is power.

Further do that you do not HAVE to use ferocity precision and Power in gear. There a number of traits that add a whole lot of power/precision/ferocity through all classes . People just want ever bigger numbers from a damage perspective so stick with the Zerker mentality.

There a number of builds being used that use Knights or valkyrie or something other than Zerker in a power build.

Attributes no longer come from going into three seperate traitlines.

I see almost exclusively power builds, with the exception of an occasion burn guardian and of coarse necros. I also see a fair bit of condi mesmers. Maybe a rare condition engineer. I would say 80% of the players I encounter are power (I would say more, but I wanted to try to give condi builds at least 20% for the sake of this debate)

babazhook.6805:

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

I suppose I have a little bit of a mixed opinion about condition damage. For power builds, it is entirely possible to trait and gear for absolutely zero condition condition damage.

For condi builds, they could go full into condition damage, well over 2000, and still maintain a solid 1000 power. Furthermore, conditions ignore armor. For someone to be a power build, they have to put points into power, precision, and ferocity. This means they’re going to have to sacrifice vit, toughness, or both.

Condition builds put points into condition damage. That’s it. They’re free to spend the rest on anything they want, and dire builds can have an amazing amount of resistance to power users with both a high amount of vitality and toughness, while that same power user has nothing to counter them. They’re required to sacrifice skills to mitigate condition damage.

While I often play hybrid power/condi for this very reason, I think it’s an incredibly imbalanced design.

TL;DR -
Power user? Better pump that power, precision and ferocity. 3 stats!
Condition user? Pump that condition damage. Put the rest into vit and toughness. Live forever.

When you look at it that way, there is little reason to spec into power anymore. The ferocity nerf didn’t help, either.

This not accurate. There are plenty of Power builds in WvW. You just see fewer roaming for a multitude of reasons. In larger groups the majority is power.

Further do that you do not HAVE to use ferocity precision and Power in gear. There a number of traits that add a whole lot of power/precision/ferocity through all classes . People just want ever bigger numbers from a damage perspective so stick with the Zerker mentality.

There a number of builds being used that use Knights or valkyrie or something other than Zerker in a power build.

Attributes no longer come from going into three seperate traitlines.

Perhaps you should read my post again. I said traits and gear.

My post was more or less a general post about condi. I rarely play WvW these days except for roaming.. most of my time is spent in PvP, where condi far outweighs the power. I only jumped on this thread because I wanted to point out how different the approach is when building a spec. To maximize power, yes, you do need all 3 stats. To maximize condi, you need only one.

IMO one of the factors that is pumping condition up is that the cleanse system is working differently than before. It would be nice if it is reviewed to give priority to cleanse the most powerful conditions first like burning and bleeding as well as the one with most stacks.

It simply baffles me when have 3 conditions on my character, something like 8 stacks of bleed, 2 stacks of poison and cripple and the condition cleanse removes cripple. Because of that, need to waste a second cleanse to remove that bleed which probably have a higher stack over the time wasted.

azyume.6321:

IMO one of the factors that is pumping condition up is that the cleanse system is working differently than before. It would be nice if it is reviewed to give priority to cleanse the most powerful conditions first like burning and bleeding as well as the one with most stacks.

It simply baffles me when have 3 conditions on my character, something like 8 stacks of bleed, 2 stacks of poison and cripple and the condition cleanse removes cripple. Because of that, need to waste a second cleanse to remove that bleed which probably have a higher stack over the time wasted.

There is actually some gameplay in the order of condition removal. Condi players try to use weak conditions to cover the more significant ones.

For generic condition removal, the most recently applied condition or conditions will be removed first. The condition is removed independent of the intensity, so 3 stacks and 250 stacks of bleeding are equivalent when considering condition removal.

Source: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition

Chorazin.4107:

apharma.3741:

Wait wut?! You’re really complaining about that?

1. Clones are made of paper and should die in 1-2 hits.
2. The conditions they apply are very short usually staff and scepter.
3. They removed every single clone death condition. Yep there is no penalty at all for killing them.
4. Clones are stupid and slow in attack.

It’s all about the cover condis, if i have a condi clear that say removes 2 conditions, i can remove that clone staff hits bleed and vuln. I dont actually make it to the 5 stacks of torment or 8 stacks of confusion i want removed.

Again, staff clones fire slow projectiles and pretty much have no reason to be alive and not to mention the conditions they apply are very short. You can either cleave them out before they really get a chance to stack condis or wait it out a sec. Outsideof staff auto Mesmer has terrible cover conditions.

However one thing I do think should be changed is transfers and confusion, in my opinion condition transfers shouldn’t trigger confusion on skill damage as it makes transfers with confusion kind of clunky.

azyume.6321:

IMO one of the factors that is pumping condition up is that the cleanse system is working differently than before. It would be nice if it is reviewed to give priority to cleanse the most powerful conditions first like burning and bleeding as well as the one with most stacks.

It simply baffles me when have 3 conditions on my character, something like 8 stacks of bleed, 2 stacks of poison and cripple and the condition cleanse removes cripple. Because of that, need to waste a second cleanse to remove that bleed which probably have a higher stack over the time wasted.

The problem there is thay you have had a few years where many posters cried about immobilize and chill, and demanding they were priority for cleansing.

One thing I would like to see personality, are more defensive traits. It seems to me, many of those got purged out in june, through out menu professions. As I see it, that added greatly to the problem with damage. As it left way more options s for traits thay increased damage, while removing some of the options to negate damage.

Most heavy condi source skills are single target.
Good zergs have lots of AoE condi clear (shouts, warhorn, purging flames,etc..)

This creates a situation where in duels or very small scale condis are super strong, but in big groups they are useless.

If you are fighting 1v1 against a good P/D thief or PU mesmer you won’t be able to clear the condis unless you run a super heavy condi clear build like a celestial ele. Even in those cases you probably will just be able to stale the fight. One good point is that although they are strong dueling they have slow movement, are bad in large scales and if you just decide to turn around and walk away they can’t kill you because they lack burst dmg.

GROMIT.7829:

Condi damage does not need to be nerfed, we don’t need more condi removal we just need longer cooldowns on abilities that apply conditions or a global cooldown for cany one condition to be applied again, don’t be stupid and cry for a full condi nerf as it’s not needed.

I believe most of what you said is, as some others already pointed out just well… not necessarily true. There are lot’s of condition applying skills that are not only easily predictable and thus dodgeable but also have long cool downs, take signet of spite for most obvious example, rather long casting time, blockable, dodgable and with pretty big cooldown time. Some of necro condi skills also apply condition on caster, these conditions can be removed or even used to casters advantage but you really need to know what you are doing and have some sort of rhytm which when disturbed… There are even skills that although unblockable can still miss. Of course there are other condition applying possibilites, some of which only involve spamming atk 1 but these are nowhere as effective and don\t cause high enough dmg,. Certain power builds on the other hand can apply insane amounts of dmg, take thief or full zerker warr. This dmg is not applied over time but instantly… and definitely doesnt have high cooldown times and can be repeated. Also full zerk rangers can apply insane ammounts of dmg from high/safe distance with ability to increase distantance but i guess this is not an issue to some. Glassiness of power builds comes in part because of strange obsession with highest possible dmg without taking into account ones deffensible abilities. That said your comment about condis is too general and inacurate. There is indeed a class that was buffed after recent skill/trait changes which can almost instantly apply high amounts of condi dmg, has high mobility and can disappear without punishment if things dont go right. This class and a certain popular build it’s users use is perfect at countering full zerker characters, especially those with less experience, willingness to learn and inclination to spam skills without… using head. I would agree though that this certain class skills shall be “balanced”. There are however ways to counter even this kind of class behaviour but these require lot’s of research and patience and observation, food and maybe even reworking of build.

So instead of talking about conditions as whole and applying generalized terms which are only true to certain skills of certain classes it would be good to name concrete skills which you believe should have increased cooldowns/cast times or w/e. Also i’d be interested in that 8k dmg for a tick which can’t, i asume, be dodged, cleansed and can be applied over and over again. The only way I believe this can be done would be getting by several stacks of confusion n other smelly stuff and to this situation reacting by spamming atk.

xDudisx.5914:

Most heavy condi source skills are single target.
Good zergs have lots of AoE condi clear (shouts, warhorn, purging flames,etc..)

This creates a situation where in duels or very small scale condis are super strong, but in big groups they are useless.

If you are fighting 1v1 against a good P/D thief or PU mesmer you won’t be able to clear the condis unless you run a super heavy condi clear build like a celestial ele. Even in those cases you probably will just be able to stale the fight. One good point is that although they are strong dueling they have slow movement, are bad in large scales and if you just decide to turn around and walk away they can’t kill you because they lack burst dmg.

I think that is precisely my issue with most of the complaints here. When you read the post complaining about conditions, it often strikes me as very evident that they got creamed in 1v1s against a certain profession a few times. When they base their ccomplaining on 1v1 battles, in my opinion, it completely invalidates their argument as a whole. Some folks have difficulty understanding that WvW is stayed as being balanced for larger battles, and not duels.

coglin.1867:

I see almost exclusively power builds, with the exception of an occasion burn guardian and of coarse necros. I also see a fair bit of condi mesmers. Maybe a rare condition engineer. I would say 80% of the players I encounter are power (I would say more, but I wanted to try to give condi builds at least 20% for the sake of this debate)

What server are you on where things are like this? Cuz that sounds like paradise to me. Where i am, it’s literally 95% condi users with the odd pew pew ranger or hammer warrior. rarely do i see power builds anymore at all.

Nikkinella.8254:

coglin.1867:

I see almost exclusively power builds, with the exception of an occasion burn guardian and of coarse necros. I also see a fair bit of condi mesmers. Maybe a rare condition engineer. I would say 80% of the players I encounter are power (I would say more, but I wanted to try to give condi builds at least 20% for the sake of this debate)

What server are you on where things are like this? Cuz that sounds like paradise to me. Where i am, it’s literally 95% condi users with the odd pew pew ranger or hammer warrior. rarely do i see power builds anymore at all.

Well I think the way you play WvW will determine what types of builds you play to a great extent. Just as you will not see as many rangers or thieves run in a zerg as compared to warriors and guardians , you will see fewer condition users in the same. Given the zerg is the majority of players , those numbers can not be ignored if you tend to roam alone and in smaller groups when you try and make an assessment of what type of build mst common.

That said without a doubt I have seen a spike in the number of mesmers roaming and in particular condition mesmers. Some nights it seems that all I see. This does not suggest issues with Conditions versus power as much as the internal balancing of the class itself.

So going through profession by profession from a roaming perspective so as to try and get a grip on those numbers ,my own experience is this.

Warriors: Lots of warriors still roam. I have not seen any of late that are condition builds.

Thieves: There are condition thieves and there are power thieves. The majority are however power thieves and in particular d/p users.

Elementalists: The majority I see are still power. There an occassional condition build that focuses on burning but they have not displaced power builds in roaming.

Rangers: There is closer to a balance here in condition versus power but the advantage still lies with Power. I would say of every ten rangers 7 are power

Engineers: I do not see many roaming anymore but of those I do encounter the majority are condition.

Necromancer: Again not a commonly encountered roaming class but the majority are condition in my experience.

Guardian: Probably an even split. There certainly more burn Guardians but it can be hard at times to distinguish hybrid from power from pure condition with this class.

Mesmer: A great spike in raw numbers and most appear to be condition builds.

The server I play on is tier 4.

Another issue here is large scale fights. GWEN meta still exists, albeit changed, you run more necros / eles now with a small frontline. As I stated in another post, I would like to see GWEN go the way of the proverbial do-do bird alltogether. Completely. Simply because its so kitten kittenty and boring to play after x years.

if condi meta becomes the next thing, so be it. as long as it gets rid of GWEN i’m for it.

apharma.3741:

Again, staff clones fire slow projectiles and pretty much have no reason to be alive and not to mention the conditions they apply are very short. You can either cleave them out before they really get a chance to stack condis or wait it out a sec. Outsideof staff auto Mesmer has terrible cover conditions.

However one thing I do think should be changed is transfers and confusion, in my opinion condition transfers shouldn’t trigger confusion on skill damage as it makes transfers with confusion kind of clunky.

A 5 second vuln(which now increases all condi dmg) and 7 second bleed is not short duration. The staff clones attack rate is excellent as well, and has a bounce if close range, in such a scenario where you are looking to push in to deal with the mesmer.

Chorazin.4107:

apharma.3741:

Again, staff clones fire slow projectiles and pretty much have no reason to be alive and not to mention the conditions they apply are very short. You can either cleave them out before they really get a chance to stack condis or wait it out a sec. Outsideof staff auto Mesmer has terrible cover conditions.

However one thing I do think should be changed is transfers and confusion, in my opinion condition transfers shouldn’t trigger confusion on skill damage as it makes transfers with confusion kind of clunky.

A 5 second vuln(which now increases all condi dmg) and 7 second bleed is not short duration. The staff clones attack rate is excellent as well, and has a bounce if close range, in such a scenario where you are looking to push in to deal with the mesmer.

And if you dodge their shatters those are pretty much the only conditions they will put on you while in staff except for a trivial amount of burn and some chill/poison if you sit in the chaos storm which is easy to walk out of.

In sceptre they will stack 3 possibly 4 conditions on you (confusion, torment, blind and bleed from sharper images) which can be easily cleansed. If they swap to staff you can cleanse then they’ve neutered they’re condition damage.

Condi Mesmer is nothing compared to engineer, ranger, thief and possibly necro, they just don’t have as many cover conditions as those listed but have as good survivability.

babazhook.6805:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

I love high dmg builds, I don’t really care whether they are power or condi, tho I personally prefer power as it suits my playstyle.

To max my dmg in power build, I am paper and my mistakes are punished very quickly.

To max my dmg in condi build, I need condi dmg and precision (for some builds), even those builds that would do more dmg with precision often ignore this stat or just get a piece or two of rabid, the rest is dire. In such a build (my mes), I have just over 2k condi dmg (no stacks), 24.5k HP (no guard stacks) and 3k armour.

There is very little incentive for condi builds to use any other gear than dire, which also provides high survivability. Having two defensive stats on gear with condi dmg as major stat and so few skills/traits that rely on precision is just a bad idea that resulted into condi tanks that can burst you down in no time.

At this point people usually claim that dire is just subpar to rabid in dmg output. Take your ele with diamond skin to wvw and see how many condi players will do any sort of meaningful direct dmg to you. The reality is that vast majority of condi players use full dire cos they have no need to spec for other stats.

The reason most people use dire is because they have to be able to survive longer drawn out battles so as to allow their conditions to work. Without the extra toughness and vitality a condition build is at a distinct disadvantage to a power build.

Now if a class has different means of mitigating damage (such as stealth) the need to use Dire is much less as they can use stealth instead for that survival. I do not think you will find an even distribution of Dire armor use in condition builds across all professions. It likley the most used overall but some professions/builds can make better use out of Rabid/carrion or sinister.

My own thief build that uses conditions is using Shamans . The reason for this is I am relying more on heals than on added toughness to survive as my biggest enemy as a thief is conditions which toughness does not help with.

As a roaming set in WvW i find this very effective. and the added vitality of the set will be especially welcome when applied fortitude is lost.

Condi burst can kill me in 3-4s, I don’t consider that to be exceptionally long to survive for the condi player to need high both vitality and toughness. The “damage over time” concept was further reduced with the last patch, and as even more conditions stack now, condi builds are bursty.

Depends on what you consider “better use”, for most it’s high dmg and good survivability. Why a non min maxer would go for a bit higher dmg with a lot lower survivability. I didn’t claim all professions use dire to same extend, I said vast majority of players.

Thieves, mesmers, rangers are the most dire only classes, with engies using mixed stats most often.

Nice you play unusual build but how is it relevant to the majority of playerbase? I play zerker staff ele and I roam with it, does that mean all/most eles that roam are zerker staff eles?

Jayden Ennok.3687:

babazhook.6805:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

I love high dmg builds, I don’t really care whether they are power or condi, tho I personally prefer power as it suits my playstyle.

To max my dmg in power build, I am paper and my mistakes are punished very quickly.

To max my dmg in condi build, I need condi dmg and precision (for some builds), even those builds that would do more dmg with precision often ignore this stat or just get a piece or two of rabid, the rest is dire. In such a build (my mes), I have just over 2k condi dmg (no stacks), 24.5k HP (no guard stacks) and 3k armour.

There is very little incentive for condi builds to use any other gear than dire, which also provides high survivability. Having two defensive stats on gear with condi dmg as major stat and so few skills/traits that rely on precision is just a bad idea that resulted into condi tanks that can burst you down in no time.

At this point people usually claim that dire is just subpar to rabid in dmg output. Take your ele with diamond skin to wvw and see how many condi players will do any sort of meaningful direct dmg to you. The reality is that vast majority of condi players use full dire cos they have no need to spec for other stats.

The reason most people use dire is because they have to be able to survive longer drawn out battles so as to allow their conditions to work. Without the extra toughness and vitality a condition build is at a distinct disadvantage to a power build.

Now if a class has different means of mitigating damage (such as stealth) the need to use Dire is much less as they can use stealth instead for that survival. I do not think you will find an even distribution of Dire armor use in condition builds across all professions. It likley the most used overall but some professions/builds can make better use out of Rabid/carrion or sinister.

My own thief build that uses conditions is using Shamans . The reason for this is I am relying more on heals than on added toughness to survive as my biggest enemy as a thief is conditions which toughness does not help with.

As a roaming set in WvW i find this very effective. and the added vitality of the set will be especially welcome when applied fortitude is lost.

Condi burst can kill me in 3-4s, I don’t consider that to be exceptionally long to survive for the condi player to need high both vitality and toughness. The “damage over time” concept was further reduced with the last patch, and as even more conditions stack now, condi builds are bursty.

Depends on what you consider “better use”, for most it’s high dmg and good survivability. Why a non min maxer would go for a bit higher dmg with a lot lower survivability. I didn’t claim all professions use dire to same extend, I said vast majority of players.

Thieves, mesmers, rangers are the most dire only classes, with engies using mixed stats most often.

Nice you play unusual build but how is it relevant to the majority of playerbase? I play zerker staff ele and I roam with it, does that mean all/most eles that roam are zerker staff eles?

No i did not suggest that just because I play shamans build everyone else does. I said I play a shamans build.. Pointing out I am a thief and use shamans is relevant to that argument.

As to you dying in 3 to 4 seconds , well that one reason I went to Shamans as I found it gives better survival than dire because the toughness does nothing. It a wasted stat against condition builds. You suggested there little reason not to use Dire and I gave an example why I do not. I have near the same damage output and while healing does not scale all that well the extra healing definitely does me better survival wise. This extra ability to survive IS noticeable against other condition users who might be using dire. (outside toughness dire armor only has an advantage of 94 points in condi damage whereas shaman adds close to 1000 in health. You need a lot of stacks of all conditions to get that 94 extra condition damage to neutralize an extra 1000 health. )

I also play a pure power build and can deal well enough with a lack of toughness against power using stealth and dodges which I have to the same degree in Shamans. If people are going to conitnue to advance the meme that “Only dire works” or “it all about dire” than obviously those coming around to read such are going to go out and use dire.

For the same reasons people are going to have to consider putting away their sigil of strength or force or bursting or malice and using cleansing and purity and generosity. They are going to have to consider more vitality over power or ferocity just to survive a second or two longer so as to allow the next cleanse or heal or restealth.

There are alternatives and one should try them is my message and , for those power builds if they find conditions overwhelm them too quickly , they are going to have to look at alternatives rather than “maximizing power”. While I do believe something like burn needs a downtweak and fixes for theif traitlines still in order it is not going back to what it was.

Coldtart.4785:

coglin.1867:

scerevisiae.1972:

the only problem with condis is +/- 40% condi duration food.

Do you have any damage output numbers that a condition build with that food does more damage then a power based build can put out with its optimal food? Until you provide something like that, you are making nothing more then an unfounded claim.

I personally would like to see some factual numbers, to make this debate based on objective facts versus post that are subjective opinions.

7-1 win ratio in a series of duels against a d/d ele using a rabid rev during the rev beta by essentially rolling my face over the keyboard isn’t a factual number?

Wait…hold on….

You mean to say that a class thats still being beta tested, a class that can either be broken or useless, a class thats still being designed and isnt even released on live yet…..is your reasoning for nerfing conditions across the board?

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Please refrain from future balance issue posts.

The problem isnt conditions. The problem is no one wants to bring condition removal. As a necro main, I purposly go into wvw knowing this fact. In spvp, I completely avoid condition builds because they are simply not up to par. Actually, condition builds frowned upon in spvp because they dont stand up to the majority of power builds.

Removing condition food wold also cripple condition builds. This is another reason why condition builds mostly only work in wvw and not spvp. Condition food is actually mandatory if you want to use any kind of condition builds as they are simply useless without it. This is a big balance issue, and if they remove condition food, they would need to increase duration’s to compensate.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

babazhook.6805:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

I love high dmg builds, I don’t really care whether they are power or condi, tho I personally prefer power as it suits my playstyle.

To max my dmg in power build, I am paper and my mistakes are punished very quickly.

To max my dmg in condi build, I need condi dmg and precision (for some builds), even those builds that would do more dmg with precision often ignore this stat or just get a piece or two of rabid, the rest is dire. In such a build (my mes), I have just over 2k condi dmg (no stacks), 24.5k HP (no guard stacks) and 3k armour.

There is very little incentive for condi builds to use any other gear than dire, which also provides high survivability. Having two defensive stats on gear with condi dmg as major stat and so few skills/traits that rely on precision is just a bad idea that resulted into condi tanks that can burst you down in no time.

At this point people usually claim that dire is just subpar to rabid in dmg output. Take your ele with diamond skin to wvw and see how many condi players will do any sort of meaningful direct dmg to you. The reality is that vast majority of condi players use full dire cos they have no need to spec for other stats.

The reason most people use dire is because they have to be able to survive longer drawn out battles so as to allow their conditions to work. Without the extra toughness and vitality a condition build is at a distinct disadvantage to a power build.

Now if a class has different means of mitigating damage (such as stealth) the need to use Dire is much less as they can use stealth instead for that survival. I do not think you will find an even distribution of Dire armor use in condition builds across all professions. It likley the most used overall but some professions/builds can make better use out of Rabid/carrion or sinister.

My own thief build that uses conditions is using Shamans . The reason for this is I am relying more on heals than on added toughness to survive as my biggest enemy as a thief is conditions which toughness does not help with.

As a roaming set in WvW i find this very effective. and the added vitality of the set will be especially welcome when applied fortitude is lost.

Condi burst can kill me in 3-4s, I don’t consider that to be exceptionally long to survive for the condi player to need high both vitality and toughness. The “damage over time” concept was further reduced with the last patch, and as even more conditions stack now, condi builds are bursty.

Depends on what you consider “better use”, for most it’s high dmg and good survivability. Why a non min maxer would go for a bit higher dmg with a lot lower survivability. I didn’t claim all professions use dire to same extend, I said vast majority of players.

Thieves, mesmers, rangers are the most dire only classes, with engies using mixed stats most often.

Nice you play unusual build but how is it relevant to the majority of playerbase? I play zerker staff ele and I roam with it, does that mean all/most eles that roam are zerker staff eles?

You just named your problem. Zerker staff ele in roaming. IMHO living for 3-4 seconds as a zerker staff ele is too long. You should survive only 1-2 seconds if anyone gets the jump on you. Thats what it comes down to running glass, who gets the 1st jump on whom. This is another flaw in the game, you should be pretty much insta downed, not have 3-4 seconds.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

Wait…hold on….

You mean to say that a class thats still being beta tested, a class that can either be broken or useless, a class thats still being designed and isnt even released on live yet…..is your reasoning for nerfing conditions across the board?

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Please refrain from future balance issue posts.

The problem isnt conditions. The problem is no one wants to bring condition removal. As a necro main, I purposly go into wvw knowing this fact. In spvp, I completely avoid condition builds because they are simply not up to par. Actually, condition builds frowned upon in spvp because they dont stand up to the majority of power builds.

Removing condition food wold also cripple condition builds. This is another reason why condition builds mostly only work in wvw and not spvp. Condition food is actually mandatory if you want to use any kind of condition builds as they are simply useless without it. This is a big balance issue, and if they remove condition food, they would need to increase duration’s to compensate.

I’ve had similar results in the past using s/s lb warrior against d/d eles under spvp conditions where there is no +40% duration food. I’ve played as condi and against condi. You’re blind if you haven’t noticed that condi builds have an advantage against power builds in 1v1.

By the way, d/d ele is about the only power build that can bring enough condi clear to fight condi builds without crippling itself against power builds.

TheLastNobody.8319:

I will never understand why people hate conditions so much…

An easy one for you. People don’t mind condis. They mind when people can stack a ton of condis and drop them as fast as a zerker class. The issue is that condi specs can be a lot more defensive. Essentially it should be this:

1. zerker specs – can kill you fast but die super fast as well
2. Condi specs – Kill you slowly but hard to kill as well.

It’s because many idiots are clumping up, that’s why conditions are very effective. Have some common sense. Stop acting like dumb lemmings following a floating blue dorito, and start spreading out and surrounding the enemy.

HaxTester.9816:

It’s because many idiots are clumping up, that’s why conditions are very effective. Have some common sense. Stop acting like dumb lemmings following a floating blue dorito, and start spreading out and surrounding the enemy.

Wut? Conditions are a problem in pug raids? lol

Coldtart.4785:

I’ve had similar results in the past using s/s lb warrior against d/d eles under spvp conditions where there is no +40% duration food. I’ve played as condi and against condi. You’re blind if you haven’t noticed that condi builds have an advantage against power builds in 1v1.

By the way, d/d ele is about the only power build that can bring enough condi clear to fight condi builds without crippling itself against power builds.

Funny considering that most spvp players do not feel this way.
I’ll also be more inclined to believe you if you had some actually proof of what you were claiming.

But again, you use beta classes are your reasoning, so you already lost credibility.

+/- duration food should be removed altogether. This way the ticks are more consistent and the skills themselves can be used as they were balanced, and if numbers are too high/low on these effects, the balancing is normalized. This also lets condi users bump their damage per tick if things prove to be too weak and get buffed via +damage food.

As far as coglin’s comment about people squeezing every ounce of power out of a build, it wouldn’t be an issue where some sacrifices would need to be made. Unfortunately the real culprit here comes from dire gear. You’re looking at a stat setup designed to counter burst when condi builds thrive on sustained fights. You’re looking at power players needing to sacrifice their food utilities to counteract conditions on top of maximizing cleanses (costing damage). The problem here is that because dire is so tanky, and condi builds thrive on longer fights, being incapable of bursting down a condi build before they can stack large ticks (as per how to counter condition players on a multitude of classes which strictly do not have good enough condition cleansing as an entire class) creates poorly-designed encounters that prohibit counterplay.

Regarding evidence of condi DPS > berserker DPS, the ranger’s axe/torch condi swap build offers the best DPS available to the ranger/parties, and has substantially faster build-up than most other condition builds. While this does mean that it uses sinister gear, and is subsequently just as squishy as its berserker counterpart, the primary form of its damage by far and large comes from its condi ticks, which of course remain with dire gear, if not improve in WvW due to food.

Of course, that’s just from a DPS perspective. In PvP formats, where it’s fairly common to be found not constantly attacking and rotating damage, condi builds can offer strictly better DPS values (class dependent) as the damage can remain ticking while performing defensive maneuvers, resetting positions, etc, due to innately higher damage per skill use on condition skills.

For a bit of history, GWEN/lack of use of conditions in blobs was established as a ZvZ method due to the fact that AOE condition application via control conditions (not even DoTs) such as poison’s heal cuts which are/were previously much more readily available to spam on groups of players were regarded as being the deciding factor in group fights in WvW, and as such, a structure was designed to create a direct counter to battlefield control as a whole and in doing so make it much more difficult for zerg members to be killed/rallybot. Initially, guardians were seen as good support/damage hybrids, but the primary focus in blobs was ele/warrior/thief for support, initiation, and control, respectively, with necros and mesmers playing as more or less sideline control players and unique support options, and guards being more of a niche support/damage role.

DeceiverX.8361:

snip

This entire post can be summed up in 2 words.

Nerf Rangers

I only run condi ranger in pvp sometimes. In wvw zerkbow is definitely the better choice.
A well played power ranger (lel) will beat a condi ranger 9 times out of 10. Ranger’s condition options are just too unreliable, limited in variety, are short range and very transparent. (Seriously, who actually gets hit with a throw torch or a serpent’s strike these days?) They’re good with bleeds, but to be good with poison they have to sacrifice empathic bond or survival of the fittest meaning their own condition removal is limited to healing spring (if they run traps) and the signet. (And people wonder why lots of rangers run with a bear.) Bonfire is nice, if you know, your opponent stands in it. Not going to happen. The nerf to traps and spirits didn’t help things much, either. Rangers apply fewer unique, though more potent conditions than all professions other than guardian, meaning it’s always easier to cleanse.

In my experience mesmers and engis have been the most difficult condition classes for me to deal with. The odd necro can be a pain, too. Engineers in particular are particularly potent at filling your condi bar up, and keeping it full. I’d rather have 22 stacks of bleed. 2 stacks of burning and 4 stacks of poison on me than an entire bar of fairly short duration, constantly renewing filler conditions that prevent me from cleansing the relevent ones. It gets to the point where it’s not even worth trying to cleanse.

Oh, and for the love of god nerf of condi+ (and condi-) food. Only been saying that for 3 years.

~ Kovu