Guild Wars 2

I have a thought about the current limit on 5 targets hit with AoE:

The current state of AoE encourages zerg stacking, and zerg vs zerg fighting.I hear in /team chat from commanders often shouting “Stack ON ME”, to utilize this mechanic. I am NOT against zerg vs zerg fighting at all. But I think with the culling problems Anet has, it would be in their best interest to spread the floor out. I understand that making AoE unlimited would be a nightmare for keep/tower/castle seiges, and would make a few classes/builds very powerful.

Why doesn’t Anet set a limit for AoE to 5 targets only in towers, keeps, and castles? This would essentially spread out populations, encourage smaller fights, but at the same time the “zerg” or mass fighting force wouldn’t be discouraged to stay in the zerg. It would force zergs to fight more strategicly, and not just bum rush or stand to close together. Dont allow unlimited AoE in bottlenecked areas (keeps towers etc) and it just might fix this area of the game. Cull bombing zerg forces would become less frequent and easier to counter.

I would suggest a 1200 radius around the outer boundries of every keep,tower, castle would limit aoe to 5 targets…anything beyond that would be unlimited AoE zones. I think making supply camps AOE unlimited would be best in this senario for a more dynamic spread out fight.

What are you thoughts?

AOE target limits are slipshod and arbitrary, they should be totally removed and replaced with dynamic scaling: i.e. an AOE damage spell will do less damage to each target affected as more targets are hit, but the spell will still hit all the targets. Simple and straightforward does it best.

Foddzy.6291:

AOE target limits are slipshod and arbitrary, they should be totally removed and replaced with dynamic scaling: i.e. an AOE damage spell will do less damage to each target affected as more targets are hit, but the spell will still hit all the targets. Simple and straightforward does it best.

this or increase the limit and power for combo fields to promote skillful play would be acceptable.

o and remove downed status

Except, that’s not so simple. Some skills have special effects on them like applying conditions or removing boons, knocking back, applying boons, etc. Damage is only the tip of the iceberg.

Foddzy.6291:

AOE target limits are slipshod and arbitrary, they should be totally removed and replaced with dynamic scaling: i.e. an AOE damage spell will do less damage to each target affected as more targets are hit, but the spell will still hit all the targets. Simple and straightforward does it best.

This would just result in everyone turtling again, to spread the incoming damage across as large a number of people as possible, rendering it ineffective.

Psychatog.8246:

Foddzy.6291:

AOE target limits are slipshod and arbitrary, they should be totally removed and replaced with dynamic scaling: i.e. an AOE damage spell will do less damage to each target affected as more targets are hit, but the spell will still hit all the targets. Simple and straightforward does it best.

this or increase the limit and power for combo fields to promote skillful play would be acceptable.

o and remove downed status

They will never remove downed status…but if they could put a cd on it like when you get downed for the second time wihtin 10secs you cant get ressed untill the 10secs is finished. Just a idea.

/Salute

They should remove any limit anywhere. It’s called “Area Of Effect” not “Multiple Target Skill”.

If you want to pile 50 people into one little area, they should all be affected.

If they don’t want to be affected, they should move.

Remove the 5 player AOE target. Problem solved.

style.6173:

Remove the 5 player AOE target. Problem solved.

Which introduces a new problem. WvWvW will become AoE centric and everyone will be running around with the strong AoE classes.

DAoC had no limits to the number of targets an AE could hit, but they had something else to compensate. it’s called AE-dropoff. it means that someone standing on the center of the AE was hit for 100 % of the damage and that the damage decreased in a linear fashion the further away from the center, dropping down to 1 % of the damage at the edge of the AE. it’s a brilliant system. i hope Anet introduces it (but i don’t expect it).

pbaoe spells had the bigest delves of all AE’s in the game, way higher than ranged AE spells. running into a ‘ball’ of players and living long enough (conditio sine qua non) to cast 2-3 pbaoe’s was sure do drop a large number of players who were close enough to ‘touch’ you.

Why 5? What is it about 5? Why not 6? Why not 4?

Is it the gods?

Its magic! FIVE!!!

Currently the meta is focus your players to exploit culling and AoE limits instead of using skill to focus your fire.

muylaetrix.2096:

DAoC had no limits to the number of targets an AE could hit, but they had something else to compensate. it’s called AE-dropoff. it means that someone standing on the center of the AE was hit for 100 % of the damage and that the damage decreased in a linear fashion the further away from the center, dropping down to 1 % of the damage at the edge of the AE. it’s a brilliant system. i hope Anet introduces it (but i don’t expect it).

Drop off with no maximum targets would be great for damage, but what about the other affects like conditions? Also, I don’t think DAOC dropped down to 1%, at least not when I stopped playing. Seems like it was more like 50% at the end of the radius at least on pbaoe spells.

i agree.. aoe cap gone.. drop off from the focal point of the aoe spell.

come on.. as an ele i can only hit 5 people with and aoe spell but 20 can hit me at once.

also what about mesmer portals. i see portal inside a keep we just capped. i stand right next to it since its close to the edge of a cliff and ready to cast updraft. 20 people port up. i cast updraft.. now will this knock all 20 people off if they are in the right place of the cast and haven’t moved or will it only knock 5 off.. and if it only knocks 5 off will it guarantee to knock off all mesmers if 5 or less or is it random and therefore a waste of my time to even make an attempt to defend the tower if i had the opportunity too?

That 5 target limit is very dumb b/c foes moves in and out of AoEs all the time. So let’s say my AoE was well-placed and hits 10 targets. But b/c of the limit I only hits 5. A second later all 10 foes moves out of my AoE so it doesn’t hit anyone. So my well-placed AoE only ended up dealing 5 hits. How is that fair? How does this encourage player development and skilled play?

just remove it… but not like what players thinks matters.

Sureshot.6725:

style.6173:

Remove the 5 player AOE target. Problem solved.

Which introduces a new problem. WvWvW will become AoE centric and everyone will be running around with the strong AoE classes.

Good. Maybe then this game won’t be Thief Wars anymore.

a warrior or thief still hits harder single target then any Aoe skill does with full dmg and are alot harder to get away from.. aoe aint a problem i ever noticed…

Straegen.2938:

So we should fix culling by breaking even more mechanics and making several classes significantly more powerful such as the Bunker Ele (which is already one of the most powerful in the game)?

can a bunker ele do 10k – 15k damage in 1 hit. churning earth is gonna do 2k – 3k damage for a bunker ele. ik that it adds alot of bleed and cripples but its easily dodged even with lightning flash.

i run a d/d bunker ele and have lost probably as much as i have won. we are not indestructible.

if 5 is gonna be the cap.. when i run into a zerg then only 5 of you should be allowed to fight while the rest perma sleep.

zergs dont want the aoe limit increased because their advantage is taken away

Well, they won’t remove the limit to AoE across the board. There are too many scenarios where people are forced to bottleneck near and around towers and keeps to enter a room, or broken wall. This would make AoE defenders in essence the new turtle mechanic because you could hold a keep/tower point with 2 necros , 1 staff ele against 50+ players.

I was trying to discuss a “reasonable” fix. I’m pretty sure if Anet reads any of the posts above by those saying remove AoE limit everywhere, they would lol and move to the next thread.

Limiting AoE to 5 only near towers/castles/keeps would:

1. make AoE classes more viable in the open field
2. reduce culling by spreading the populations on maps by discouraging cull stacking/charging in the open field.
3. This would not kill WvW. It would greatly improve the amount of small encounters and dynamic within WvW.

For those stating why 5 limit? Why not 4, 6 8 10 whatever?!!!
I agree that the max at 5 within keeps/towers/castles should be upped to somewhere around 8-10 people. Anet is sooooo slow and so counter productive in terms of quicker fixes, I think it will be baby steps to get to this point.

The biggest problem with the AoE 5 target limit is it encourage ball formations. Ball formations reduces damage of everyone inside. This doesn’t make any sense. Other than Barbarians no one in the past fights in ball formations. Any random English longbow barrage would kill like a thousand of guys in a ball formation.

If the skill hits, the foes should take full damage. Pure and simple.

if 50+ players cant kill 3 players there is a problem…. and the problem isnt with the aoe limit.

covenn.7165:

muylaetrix.2096:

DAoC had no limits to the number of targets an AE could hit, but they had something else to compensate. it’s called AE-dropoff. it means that someone standing on the center of the AE was hit for 100 % of the damage and that the damage decreased in a linear fashion the further away from the center, dropping down to 1 % of the damage at the edge of the AE. it’s a brilliant system. i hope Anet introduces it (but i don’t expect it).

Drop off with no maximum targets would be great for damage, but what about the other affects like conditions? Also, I don’t think DAOC dropped down to 1%, at least not when I stopped playing. Seems like it was more like 50% at the end of the radius at least on pbaoe spells.

apply drop off to condition/boon duration as well.. simple… really simple…

yes… “short duration aoe condition skill” will be a little less penalized by the drop off… but u just need to balance the aoe size of those skill (and work with the stack in case of multistack short duration bleed… that could drop off in number of stack other than in duration…)

also there are already skill that work this way… the warrior’s “fear me” apply fear with duration based on the distance…

this wil probably makes things much more tattical… reaching the far side of an aoe whold be enough to mitigate it’s dmg… so that u could save your dodge for when u’r in the middle of it low health…

zerg will not become uselees (numeric advantage will still be there… not as powerfull as it is now but still an advantage u can make use of)… but mono pixelf zerg will (that is not a tactic but simply an exploit of a flawed system…)

Brando.1374:

if 50+ players cant kill 3 players there is a problem…. and the problem isnt with the aoe limit.

Let’s say we got 50 medicore players facing the top 3 players in the world. You would expect those 3 elite players do deal some damage before dying. However the 50 men zerg will do 100% damage against those 3 elite players. At the same time those 3 elite players will deal REDUCED damage against the 50 men zerg because of the target limit.

So when your zerg is huge, you are even stronger. When you are in a elite squad, you are even weaker against zergs.

CHIPS.6018:

Brando.1374:

if 50+ players cant kill 3 players there is a problem…. and the problem isnt with the aoe limit.

Let’s say we got 50 medicore players facing the top 3 players in the world. You would expect those 3 elite players do deal some damage before dying. However the 50 men zerg will do 100% damage against those 3 elite players. At the same time those 3 elite players will deal REDUCED damage against the 50 men zerg because of the target limit.

So when your zerg is huge, you are even stronger. When you are in a elite squad, you are even weaker against zergs.

as it is now the zerg has too many advantages. all they have to do is ball up and they live for days.

lift the AoE limit and make zergs play smart and give smaller groups a chance to out play the zerg.

So…what if instead we implemented a system that of course removed the AOE limit, reduced the overall damage but made it progressively raise depending on how many targets are in its AOE? It seems to be a valid enough suggestion it would allow people to fight against the lame zerg ball technique while doing what anet wanted which was to allow single target dpsers to have a better role (which I still consider kitten but wtv have to accomadate for your gaming company not the other way around) and of course implement a reduction of overall damage for how many aoes are placed in the same spot at once, so 5 meteor storms in the same spot will have reduced damage initially but raise over time so first meteor shower 100% (raising based on targets) second 80% (raising based on targets) and in that sort of order (numbers could obv be changed around)

@ straegen…

i didn’t mention thieves. my info comes from what i hear from my guildies alot.. omg i hit for 12k.. omg i hit for 15k.. i even heard omg i just hit for 21k. i didn’t use that number because im pretty sure thats against low level/armor characters. i believe that most of the time i hear those numbers are from warriors. a few times these were against level 80 characters but probably poorly built characters idk.

but yeah since you mentioned it i do believe ive seen myself crit for 5k before but rarely. 5k against 5 people = 25k. lets say those 5 hit me for 4k each.. well so what if i have damage output of 25k i didn’t down anyone but those 5 just downed me. now if there are 6 then im gonna take 24k damage but one of them will receive no damage at all from me.

thieves have a trait that removes conditions every 3 seconds and another that regenerates health while stealthed so the churning earth bleed doesn’t matter.

and you know as well as i do that churning earth takes 3.5 seconds to cast. so even with lightning flash its easily dodged. most fights i get into people always save their dodges for 2 skills.. updraft and churning earth

when they see RTL they dodge at the very end to avoid updraft. this dodge also makes the fire burst spells ineffective because even if you notice and dont cast right away you have to line yourself up with them to cast them.

The game is already incapable of crunching the numbers in big fights – ever been in one of those big keep 3-ways?

It’s not strictly a balance issue – the engine is already creaking when pushed, and you want to increase the load exponentially. Don’t hold yer breath.

Brando.1374:

zergs dont want the aoe limit increased because their advantage is taken away

when you run in tier 1

also in a zerg we got 50 people throwing kitten, we will hit 250 players.. we dont gain much from this.. but 5 people could hit all 60 of us if the limit was removed..

Porky.5021:

They should remove any limit anywhere. It’s called “Area Of Effect” not “Multiple Target Skill”.

If you want to pile 50 people into one little area, they should all be affected.

If they don’t want to be affected, they should move.

This. simple as that.

Put more objectives and areas to fight that encourage smaller numbers.

Or build some arrow carts. An arrow cart mid-battle can easily let you push, but many people don’t do that.

covenn.7165:

muylaetrix.2096:

DAoC had no limits to the number of targets an AE could hit, but they had something else to compensate. it’s called AE-dropoff. it means that someone standing on the center of the AE was hit for 100 % of the damage and that the damage decreased in a linear fashion the further away from the center, dropping down to 1 % of the damage at the edge of the AE. it’s a brilliant system. i hope Anet introduces it (but i don’t expect it).

Drop off with no maximum targets would be great for damage, but what about the other affects like conditions? Also, I don’t think DAOC dropped down to 1%, at least not when I stopped playing. Seems like it was more like 50% at the end of the radius at least on pbaoe spells.

erm, you are probably right, the HD that had my screenshots went to digital heaven/hell. i can’t check them anymore. and my memory is not accurate enough to remember numbers on something that happened 5+ years ago.

if i remember correctly, AE-drop-off affected CC’s and DoT’s duration, not damage.

Comaetilico.3645:

covenn.7165:

muylaetrix.2096:

DAoC had no limits to the number of targets an AE could hit, but they had something else to compensate. it’s called AE-dropoff. it means that someone standing on the center of the AE was hit for 100 % of the damage and that the damage decreased in a linear fashion the further away from the center, dropping down to 1 % of the damage at the edge of the AE. it’s a brilliant system. i hope Anet introduces it (but i don’t expect it).

Drop off with no maximum targets would be great for damage, but what about the other affects like conditions? Also, I don’t think DAOC dropped down to 1%, at least not when I stopped playing. Seems like it was more like 50% at the end of the radius at least on pbaoe spells.

apply drop off to condition/boon duration as well.. simple… really simple…

yes… “short duration aoe condition skill” will be a little less penalized by the drop off… but u just need to balance the aoe size of those skill (and work with the stack in case of multistack short duration bleed… that could drop off in number of stack other than in duration…)

also there are already skill that work this way… the warrior’s “fear me” apply fear with duration based on the distance…

this wil probably makes things much more tattical… reaching the far side of an aoe whold be enough to mitigate it’s dmg… so that u could save your dodge for when u’r in the middle of it low health…

zerg will not become uselees (numeric advantage will still be there… not as powerfull as it is now but still an advantage u can make use of)… but mono pixelf zerg will (that is not a tactic but simply an exploit of a flawed system…)

yep, agree with every comment you made about my post.