Guild Wars 2

Tulisin.6945:

covenn.7165:

I disagree and it’s not a quick fix solution. I have been playing stealthers for over a decade across numerous mmo’s. game developers started making it really care bear and that has caused problems over the years. If I make a bad decision, I should pay for it like every other class. However, if I play well and open from stealth I should have a huge advantage over my prey.

That is a nice sentiment, but GW2 stealth doesn’t function like it does in most MMOs. It is specifically built to be used in combat repeatedly. Most thief builds rely on dipping into stealth, if only for a second, to set up from-stealth attacks. If those attacks become only possible once per fight, they’d need to be massively retuned, along with the rest of the profession. Same with on-stealth traits, regen-on-stealth, condition removal on stealth, and many more traits would need to be changed to the new once-per-fight paradigm. Not to mention what such a change would to do PvE.

So, again, there’s nothing wrong with limiting stealth to something you open the fight with, but GW2 isn’t currently built that way, and it’d require a lot more work than a simple change.

I think you are being a little to rigid. Several ways this can be tweaked without requiring an overhaul

Tulisin.6945:

The counter to stealth, then, is to minimize the innate benefits of stealth by tracking/anticipating and attacking the stealthed player, and maximize the innate detriments of stealth by not allowing the thief to get “free” combat downtime and actually have to make the choice to remain in stealth for the benefits.

In short, if you stay aggressive and continue to attack your opponent while they’re stealthed, you’ve just turned stealth from an advantage to them to a disadvantage to them. They can’t attack you while stealthed or risk losing the benefits, but you can attack all you want. They’re essentially dazing themselves for 2-3 seconds at a time.

People believe stealth is so powerful because they often let the stealthed player simply get “free” time with no applied pressure to do whatever they want. Against an intelligent player stealth becomes a choice and potential liability where you trade the ability to attack for some benefits, a major tradeoff.

Yeah, man, just keep swinging at the air. That really turns stealth into a disadvantage for a player who’s already long gone.

Thieves in stealth cannot be attacked reliably with ranged attacks because they can’t be targeted. They also can’t be attacked reliably with melee attacks because all it takes is a single dodge roll to move out of melee range. Being unable to attack for the duration of stealth isn’t much of a disadvantage since you aren’t really getting hit during that time.

In a fight against a thief, you’re fighting on their terms, no matter what. If things aren’t looking so great for them, leaving is effortless.

Thieves should get the Revealed debuff if either they attack or are hit when in stealth.

Not sure if someone else already replied to this on the second page or not, but this is my two cents.

Archonis.7249:

….
If they would do something like that, they would have to buff us more with defense. More base health. Maybe add something to other abilities that will allow us to tank a bit better or they would have to make our burst even stronger.

Any way you look at it, if they nerf something. Then they have to buff something in order to keep some balance and then people will be complaining about that.

So, you’d have to stack some vitality/toughness like everyone else? Oh dear, what a dreadful thought. [/sarcasm]
It just seems that, that line was used by so many thieves in reply to complaints about their insane on demand spike damage.
I decided to play my warrior in WvW, [Hammer+Shout heal build] 3200 armor. I still saw steal, CnD, and back-stab hitting for big numbers. In comparison to my D/D Ele balance build, it really wasn’t much difference.
On Warrior it would be something like 3-5k Steal, 2-5k CnD, 2-9k back stab.
On Elementalist it would be something like 3-6k Steal, 3-6k CnD, and 4-12k back stab.
There are a lot of options that Anet could look into as a way to fix the Thief class. I’d rather not seem them nerfed to the point of pointless, but a lot of data and complaints have been filed. Something needs to be done.

Shroom Mage.9410:

Thieves in stealth cannot be attacked reliably with ranged attacks because they can’t be targeted. They also can’t be attacked reliably with melee attacks because all it takes is a single dodge roll to move out of melee range. Being unable to attack for the duration of stealth isn’t much of a disadvantage since you aren’t really getting hit during that time.

You don’t need a target to aim ranged attacks. Stealth isn’t much of a disadvantage most of the time because few people actually bother to make it one by staying aggressive. The problem is much less with stealth than it is with people completely giving up and standing around like NPCs do when confronted with stealth. By not being aggressive and trying to track and hit the thief in stealth, the thief’s opponent gives the fight to the thief by making stealth a straight boost instead of a tradeoff. Stealth is an excellent example of a mechanic that is decently balanced given a developed meta, but is utterly broken against someone who doesn’t try to counter it.

This doesn’t really apply if the thief is using stealth defensively, but then if the thief is using stealth to cover an escape then not being able to attack isn’t a disadvantage anyways.

Tulisin.6945:

You don’t need a target to aim ranged attacks. Stealth isn’t much of a disadvantage most of the time because few people actually bother to make it one by staying aggressive. The problem is much less with stealth than it is with people completely giving up and standing around like NPCs do when confronted with stealth. By not being aggressive and trying to track and hit the thief in stealth, the thief’s opponent gives the fight to the thief by making stealth a straight boost instead of a tradeoff. Stealth is an excellent example of a mechanic that is decently balanced given a developed meta, but is utterly broken against someone who doesn’t try to counter it.

Yes, some ranged attacks do require a target to be used. And randomly attacking thin air where the thief use to be and/or where you think they might be, can work. Problem of that of course, is that’s just being lucky that you caught them. Cause, you know, they don’t have shadow step, or dodge roll, or anything that can get them out of melee/danger range. This is most likely one of the majorly frustrating things people are trying to point out.

[edit] I have a thief as well, not that high lvl, but high enough to know a lot of the tricks.

FourTwenty.4268:

covenn.7165:

Don’t kid yourself and keep it real. My thief is by far the easiest class for me in the game to play 1v1. The skill bar is extremely low to be successful. The actual thieves out there that are good, well we can do some amazing things.

false. but you can continue with your delusions if you want.

Great counter argument. Maybe it’s just too easy for me

Archonis.7249:

covenn.7165:

Think you need to read his post again Archonis. You missed something there, heh

Read it again, not sure what I am missing. He is suggesting that stealth goes on a CD for 60 secs and then he can vanish out of combat. That is way too long.

No I did not mention what the cooldown would be for revealed, only that it should be longer. What is it in the other games? 10 sec? 20? Then if you choose so you could use a utility skill called Vanish that would have a long cooldown, like the other game more of a oh kitten skill.

Shroom Mage.9410:

Tulisin.6945:

The counter to stealth, then, is to minimize the innate benefits of stealth by tracking/anticipating and attacking the stealthed player, and maximize the innate detriments of stealth by not allowing the thief to get “free” combat downtime and actually have to make the choice to remain in stealth for the benefits.

In short, if you stay aggressive and continue to attack your opponent while they’re stealthed, you’ve just turned stealth from an advantage to them to a disadvantage to them. They can’t attack you while stealthed or risk losing the benefits, but you can attack all you want. They’re essentially dazing themselves for 2-3 seconds at a time.

People believe stealth is so powerful because they often let the stealthed player simply get “free” time with no applied pressure to do whatever they want. Against an intelligent player stealth becomes a choice and potential liability where you trade the ability to attack for some benefits, a major tradeoff.

Yeah, man, just keep swinging at the air. That really turns stealth into a disadvantage for a player who’s already long gone.

Thieves in stealth cannot be attacked reliably with ranged attacks because they can’t be targeted. They also can’t be attacked reliably with melee attacks because all it takes is a single dodge roll to move out of melee range. Being unable to attack for the duration of stealth isn’t much of a disadvantage since you aren’t really getting hit during that time.

In a fight against a thief, you’re fighting on their terms, no matter what. If things aren’t looking so great for them, leaving is effortless.

Thieves should get the Revealed debuff if either they attack or are hit when in stealth.

Breaking stealth on damage, is a massive nerf. AoE and channeled abilities hit in stealth VERY easily. Shots already in the air when the thief stealth still hit. And there have been numerous times I’ve shot at air and watched a thief come out with bleeds on him.

Not to mention any sort of bleed, burning or poison would INSTANTLY break stealth. Thieves only have ONE condition remover involving stealth. ((Unless traiting))

Also in closing it seems like there are ALOT of WoW players here who want stealth to act just like Rogue’s stealth.

WereDragon.6083:

Also in closing it seems like there are ALOT of WoW players here who want stealth to act just like Rogue’s stealth.

Right now, they have it better than WoW ever did. Being able to use Ambush every 3 seconds with a vanish that can do damage. A-la CnD, and back stab, doubt they want it to work like that. Well, maybe they do.

I preferred DAOC stealth myself of all the games I played

covenn.7165:

I preferred DAOC stealth myself of all the games I played

I never had a chance to play DAOC. Was it anything like stealth in Warhammer online?

covenn.7165:

The reason they are crying is:

2. Even a bad player can be successful with a thief

Against another bad player

Osaliske.4392:

covenn.7165:

I preferred DAOC stealth myself of all the games I played

I never had a chance to play DAOC. Was it anything like stealth in Warhammer online?

No, in DAoC you could only stealth when out of combat (in most situations THink there was a Realm Ability that worked like a vanish on long CD) and then only if you were at least a certain distance from mobs/players dependent on your spec into stealth vs their level. Stealth also had a “pulse” that would trigger less and less often the higher you specced in stealth. If you were in front of an enemy when that pulse triggered, they could see you.

To trade off for this though, the burst that assassin classes were capable of could LITERALLY one shot cloth wearers (not this 3 or 4 abilities chained in quick succession we see in GW2) unless they were capped out on con (HP) and had AF buffs up.

Adaneshade.2409:

Osaliske.4392:

covenn.7165:

I preferred DAOC stealth myself of all the games I played

I never had a chance to play DAOC. Was it anything like stealth in Warhammer online?

No, in DAoC you could only stealth when out of combat (in most situations THink there was a Realm Ability that worked like a vanish on long CD) and then only if you were at least a certain distance from mobs/players dependent on your spec into stealth vs their level. Stealth also had a “pulse” that would trigger less and less often the higher you specced in stealth. If you were in front of an enemy when that pulse triggered, they could see you.

To trade off for this though, the burst that assassin classes were capable of could LITERALLY one shot cloth wearers (not this 3 or 4 abilities chained in quick succession we see in GW2) unless they were capped out on con (HP) and had AF buffs up.

And man did people complained about stealthers continuously in DAoC as well, lol.

Archonis.7249:

Kolly.9872:

I always kill thieves.. on my thief the majority of them suck

Also, if you are going solo and crying about 1v1’s in WvW. Then you are bad and making worse decisions. Sorry, has to be said. WvW is about small and large groups working together dynamically to take the map. Not Rambo running around and killing the Sheriff’s Department in Hope, Washington.

Protip: going in WvW solo, you;re going to have a bad time. (especially against thieves)

So why are there so many thieves running around apparently able to play Rambo? Lots and lots of thieves running around solo. Why is that? Why is that fair?

Why do they NOT have to run in small and large groups like every other class?

covenn.7165:

Great counter argument. Maybe it’s just too easy for me

very possibly. you could be the uber god of thief pvp and no one would know. . .or care lol

http://www.gamebreaker.tv/video-game-shows/massive-dps/

is a video you can watch where they talk about the glass cannon backstab thief build, and say “This setup puts out MASSIVE amounts of DPS but takes a lot of skill execute properly”

but as i said before. you can continue to be delusional if you want, you’re only making yourself look bad

Thief isn’t strong, but rendering bug makes them VERY strong.

It’s funny/messed up right now… since the revealed debuff doesn’t last long enough for the thief to actually be revealed.

Fix this kinda rubbish and they’ll be balanced.

RedOwl.7496:

So why are there so many thieves running around apparently able to play Rambo? Lots and lots of thieves running around solo. Why is that? Why is that fair?

Why do they NOT have to run in small and large groups like every other class?

Ele’s don’t either with how much movement they get…

Many classes can tank a small->med sized zerg for a good distance when plaid/specced/geared right. I do it often on my guard and he’s not even a bunker guardian.

Thieves do it the best though… I agree… but they also sacrifice for being able to do this the best… can’t add as much to a zerg vs more party friendly classes which wind up making far more of an impact.

FourTwenty.4268:

very possibly. you could be the uber god of thief pvp and no one would know. . .or care lol

http://www.gamebreaker.tv/video-game-shows/massive-dps/

is a video you can watch where they talk about the glass cannon backstab thief build, and say “This setup puts out MASSIVE amounts of DPS but takes a lot of skill execute properly”

but as i said before. you can continue to be delusional if you want, you’re only making yourself look bad

Bring that DD burst at me on my guard and I’ll tear it to itty bitty bits. DD burst is a FOOS build/strat.

The OP of that vid also apparently doesn’t even know what DPS is vs Burst. He’s running around killing people who are acting like grazing cattle… So yea… I would trust him… lol….

RedOwl.7496:

Archonis.7249:

Kolly.9872:

I always kill thieves.. on my thief the majority of them suck

Also, if you are going solo and crying about 1v1’s in WvW. Then you are bad and making worse decisions. Sorry, has to be said. WvW is about small and large groups working together dynamically to take the map. Not Rambo running around and killing the Sheriff’s Department in Hope, Washington.

Protip: going in WvW solo, you;re going to have a bad time. (especially against thieves)

So why are there so many thieves running around apparently able to play Rambo? Lots and lots of thieves running around solo. Why is that? Why is that fair?

Why do they NOT have to run in small and large groups like every other class?

This is, has been, and always will be, the role of the “assassin” archetype in PvP.
(and please don’t argue the “thief” vs “assassin” semantics…… the thief is intended to fill the role of assassin archetype)
The entire premise of the class is custom tailored to solo play. From the high mobility, to the ability to go invisible.

Solo is possible on other classes, but they simply must choose a build a bit more friendly to solo play; either by increasing mobility or defensive capability.

Below is a list of builds I’ve fought as a thief that are actually challenging (not at all a complete list as there are multiple solo-capable builds for every class)

D/D ele.
Stealth / evade /shatter mesmer
Banner / GS warrior.
Melee / trap ranger.
Burn / regen guardian
Flamethrower / control engi.
Well / tank necro.

I have dueled every class and all of them have builds capable of good solid 1v1.

1v1 vs someone else who’s built to 1v1 is just as hard as 1v2 or 3 vs people running zerg builds.

Bottom line, if you want to run around solo, build for it like everyone else, or stop QQing and stick with the rest of your zergling buddies.

As a second note, TANK > BURST in EVERY 1v1 situation. I’ve even built my thief as a tank and have found burst builds are a joke to 1v1 regardless of how much burst they are capable of (and yes that includes burst thieves, which are one of the easiest of the burst builds to kill in my experience)

High dps is great if you have a zerg to hide in; but a dead player does how much dps again?

Tulisin.6945:

Mindvibe.4630:

Tulisin.6945:

Mindvibe.4630:

leave thieves as they are. nerf stealth into the ground or disable its offensive capacity completely. all offensive abilities need counters, and stealth has none.

You can’t “leave thieves as they are” while also “nerfing stealth into the ground”. Major stealth changes would require major thief changes to rebalance the profession so it is less reliant on stealth as an offensive mechanic.

And whether there is “a counter to stealth” is pretty subjective. It all depends on what you consider a counter.

i consider a counter to be any ability that gives you an advantage against the initial ability. there are 0 abilities when used that give you an advantage over a stealthed player.

So you define a counter as something that turns an opponent’s advantage into a disadvantage. Under this definition most conditions are un-counterable unless you’re one of the few professions able to turn them into boons or redirect them.

That aside, to understand how to counter stealth under your definition you have to understand that stealth has innate advantages and disadvantages. Stealth gives the advantage of traited benefits and being untargetable, and the disadvantage of lowering combat uptime if you want to maintain that advantage.

first things first. stealth has no disadvantages. not one. dont insult peoples intelligence by trying to sell the idea that stealth is a complex thought process for a thief. it isnt. intelligent players arent baiting a thief in stealth, because they dont even know if hes there to be baited. what is more, “maintaining the advantage” boils down to using one of your 4 stealthing abilities, two of which do significant damage.

second, having an advantage vs the original ability can obviously mean just negating it. all classes can remove debuffs, so you example is actually the best example to prove my point.

lets compare with stealth. how many classes can negate stealth? how many classes have an advantage vs stealth? oh right. none.

covenn.7165:

Thieves aren’t op at all. It just a low skill level bar combined with culling/rendering failure by anet

Funny how you stated exactly why they are OP :P

7/10 OP. I thought the original post was pretty funny, but didn’t have a shot at drawing a decent amount of responses because its intent was fairly obvious. Your results, however, were outstanding. In conclusion, what do I know?

covenn.7165:

Tynan.6279:

Corgibuttz.5849:

I think it’s about the fact that it’s so kitten hard to finish off a thief. Other classes, if you are defeated, you die. With the thief it’s, if you are defeated, you just retreat, heal up, and come back and try to snipe that person again. It’s a class where you can be beaten over and over and over again, and never die. You just get to retry the fight over and over until you win. At least in WvW.

The culling bug (late rendering after they should appear after attacking) is certainly helping the class as well.

It’s really annoying to other classes. If they charge into a pair of guys, they better win, or they will die. Having this super mobile class that can not be caught, and can run down any other class just ruins the open world pvp for me.

I have a pistol/dagger thief based around mobility/escapism. I rarely die. I’m bored of that class and playing a few others now, and oh my gosh am I realizing how OP the thief is now. The class is hurting the enjoyment of many people for WvW. No joke.

With my other classes I’m playing I’m learning how to fight different classes, and making use of all my powers. With my thief all I used is regular 1 attack, and Cloak and Dagger, number 5 with my P/D spec. I use that in every fight, vs every class, 1v1, or 1v10. It’s a god kitten joke.

Yet the Ele D/D does the same thing you describe —-> They bail out and come right back with full health and you fail to mention them once, why not? Is it only the stealth?

A d/d ele is easy to stop from running away. They are also easy to avoid in regards to damage spikes. Not only that, the ones that are hard to kill do garbage damage. They are way more versatile than thieves though overall. That is the difference

At least you can see what the hell a D/D ele is doing.
Also they are usually the type that stare you to death after 3 minutes of pummeling.

Adaneshade.2409:

This is, has been, and always will be, the role of the “assassin” archetype in PvP.
(and please don’t argue the “thief” vs “assassin” semantics…… the thief is intended to fill the role of assassin archetype)
The entire premise of the class is custom tailored to solo play. From the high mobility, to the ability to go invisible.

So you KNOW with absolute certainty that this what ANET intended? Show me somewhere where they say they intended the class to be able to roam at will and “assassinate” people. Seems like they intended them to be able to steal abilities from stealth…not be overpowered roaming gankers.

Just because you think they should be assassins does not make it so.

For all you know they want everyone to have to run around in zergs. Seems like it since that is what 98% of WvW is right now.

Just hope they change it so you have to risk as much running around solo as much as everyone else has to someday instead of having easy mode solo.

RedOwl.7496:

So you KNOW with absolute certainty that this what ANET intended? Show me somewhere where they say they intended the class to be able to roam at will and “assassinate” people. Seems like they intended them to be able to steal abilities from stealth…not be overpowered roaming gankers.

Just because you think they should be assassins does not make it so.

For all you know they want everyone to have to run around in zergs. Seems like it since that is what 98% of WvW is right now.

Just hope they change it so you have to risk as much running around solo as much as everyone else has to someday instead of having easy mode solo.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012/first#post999247

Thief

Thieves are the masters of mobility, stealth and high single target damage. They can be very fragile if you counter their stealth with area of effects or large stacks of conditions, but they trade this fragility in order to have some of the highest burst damage in the game. They are able to help allies through traps, venoms and the mobility to flank most encounters.

FourTwenty.4268:

covenn.7165:

Great counter argument. Maybe it’s just too easy for me

very possibly. you could be the uber god of thief pvp and no one would know. . .or care lol

http://www.gamebreaker.tv/video-game-shows/massive-dps/

is a video you can watch where they talk about the glass cannon backstab thief build, and say “This setup puts out MASSIVE amounts of DPS but takes a lot of skill execute properly”

but as i said before. you can continue to be delusional if you want, you’re only making yourself look bad

Not really. I am stating my opinion based off of my experience. You are attacking me for my opinion. I am not the one looking bad here bud.

The funny thing is, I am defending the class saying that it isn’t OP and you are still attacking me just because I say it has a very low bar in regards to skill level required to be successful. Sorry it upsets you so much, but it is the truth, especially with the culling/rendering the way it is.

Causic.3798:

covenn.7165:

Thieves aren’t op at all. It just a low skill level bar combined with culling/rendering failure by anet

Funny how you stated exactly why they are OP :P

Well that isn’t the class itself though.

Solori.6025:

covenn.7165:

The reason they are crying is:

2. Even a bad player can be successful with a thief

Against another bad player

I disagree completely as is, though admittedly you may be somewhat correct once rendering/culling stops skewing the problem

Aberrant.6749:

killing people who are acting like grazing cattle…

I find that a lot of people I attack act like grazing cattle too. Sometimes I even kill people completely without taking a single point in damage. I would be willing to bet that in most cases its because I either rendered extremely late or didn’t render at all. If that gets fixed much of the complaints would go away.

SmokeyNYY.7841:

Tynan.6279:

How about you read the above posts? This was already said…

It seems you need to repeat this many many times for anyone to even understand that everything they say in these threads has been said thousands of times.

It seems we’ll need to repeat this a few thousand more times too before Anet does something about this problem. WvW has almost overnight turned into TvT as players give up and join the crowd, or just give up.

Playing a mesmer, can stealth nearly as well as my thief, and now I have clones, confusion and a larger health pool at my disposal. This is the better stealth build so far. I will be playing and improving on the Mesmer “Thief” build as it is shaping up to be a ton of fun already.

RedOwl.7496:

Archonis.7249:

Kolly.9872:

I always kill thieves.. on my thief the majority of them suck

Also, if you are going solo and crying about 1v1’s in WvW. Then you are bad and making worse decisions. Sorry, has to be said. WvW is about small and large groups working together dynamically to take the map. Not Rambo running around and killing the Sheriff’s Department in Hope, Washington.

Protip: going in WvW solo, you;re going to have a bad time. (especially against thieves)

So why are there so many thieves running around apparently able to play Rambo? Lots and lots of thieves running around solo. Why is that? Why is that fair?

Why do they NOT have to run in small and large groups like every other class?

Read what u just wrote …. Its a THIEF class and THIEF goes solo.

RedOwl.7496:

Adaneshade.2409:

This is, has been, and always will be, the role of the “assassin” archetype in PvP.
(and please don’t argue the “thief” vs “assassin” semantics…… the thief is intended to fill the role of assassin archetype)
The entire premise of the class is custom tailored to solo play. From the high mobility, to the ability to go invisible.

So you KNOW with absolute certainty that this what ANET intended? Show me somewhere where they say they intended the class to be able to roam at will and “assassinate” people. Seems like they intended them to be able to steal abilities from stealth…not be overpowered roaming gankers.

Just because you think they should be assassins does not make it so.

For all you know they want everyone to have to run around in zergs. Seems like it since that is what 98% of WvW is right now.

Just hope they change it so you have to risk as much running around solo as much as everyone else has to someday instead of having easy mode solo.

Well, as it appears that your request was filled by magicthighs, I hope you see the intent is there for a solo friendly class.
People typically choose the thief as a solo toon (alt if they usually want to group or main if they prefer solo) as nothing the thief brings to a group can’t be done better and easier by another class.

The trade off…..thieves have no group utility without sacrificing some of their solo ability. So, the same argument could be made the other way then…why do all the other classes have so many group friendly builds, while the thief brings nothing but selfish gameplay mechanics?

I have seen both sides of this argument so many times and always see the same thing. People saying thief is over powered, thief saying if you build a class that is glass built, you deserve to lose to a thief, and how thief has low health etc. Here is the only issue I have with the argument, the thief can build glass and still maintain a certain level of survivability due to stealth, no other class in the game can get away with that, and according to most thieves, deserve to die because of this. I have had to adjust my build in order to deal with the thief class, high toughness and lower damage losing utility that can help my group just to survive. But I don’t see how it’s right every player needs to change their build due to a singular class.

It’s not a singular class issue…..building as a glass cannon in PvP is a noob mistake regardless of what class you are playing/fighting against. This has been the case in every PvP based MMO in history, including GW2.

Glass cannon thieves are hands down the weakest builds we have in PvP. They are only capable of killing players who either lack understanding of their own class vs every other class on a class vs class basis (a L2P issue) or players who run builds that are simply not viable in PvP (inexperienced in MMO pvp builds)

Tankier builds are dominant. That applies to every class yes, even the thief. Raw damage output only really matters in PvE content, where PvP is all about control.

Adaneshade.2409:

Glass cannon thieves are hands down the weakest builds we have in PvP. They are only capable of killing players who either lack understanding of their own class vs every other class on a class vs class basis (a L2P issue) or players who run builds that are simply not viable in PvP (inexperienced in MMO pvp builds)

You are both wrong and right at the same time. You are wrong in the current state of the game, but are correct if culling/rendering was dependable. The problem is when a victim can’t properly react for 1 to N extra seconds because we aren’t appearing on screen for them. At that point, we gain ‘extra’ durability that can allow us to go glass without repercussions.

I get your response, I really do. The thing is you need to account for the reality our victims face half the time due to the crappy game engine and network code. Simply pointing fingers and screaming at people that they need to L2P is quite unfair and disingenuous.

However, it is no reason to nerf thieves but it IS an additional reason to expedite getting the biggest issue affecting everyone’s game play resolved.

Yes they are OP, your choice is to roll one, die to them release come back again, or quit the game.

Still don’t understand why they couldn’t make culling be client side like every other game has………at some point being different just to be different is foolish.

Every class thinks the game would be better without thiefs, but the thiefs will tell you it is a culling issue, becuase they can kill you before you know they are attacking.

Yes I have a geared level 80 Thief it is not even a challenge to kill anyone any thief that says otherwise is either bad or they do not want to get nerfed.

I mean I understand that they went a little on the optimistic side in setting their minimum system requirements and now feel obligated to meet that mark.
However, punishing those of us who are actually serious about gaming and who buy the appropriate hardware to do so doesn’t make sense.

There was no culling in BETA, and it worked great for most systems, but those who just barely met the min requirements found the game unplayable. The better option would have simply been a slider for max character rendered on screen that could be controlled client side.

Adaneshade.2409:

Still don’t understand why they couldn’t make culling be client side like every other game has………at some point being different just to be different is foolish.

I suspect they are going to do just that. They are probably going to add an option to reduce player model detail significantly as well like DAOC had a decade ago and allowed hundred v hundred fights in RvR on old school graphic cards.

The problem is that this would be a core change to the game engine and is going to require alot of time to happen, but they HAVE to do it for the longevity of this game.

Karolis.4261:

Read what u just wrote …. Its a THIEF class and THIEF goes solo.

You haven’t explained why this is fair for the other classes.

IE. “why would I roll anything else but a thief if I want to do things away from the zerg?” is a bad question for the game to cause.

It’s not even so much the system requirements. I’m running a very high end machine, and culling/rendering happens no matter. It’s the coding itself that causes the problems. Which is one of the reasons it will not be fixed anytime soon, or at all. The coding was poorly optimized. Hell, the game doesn’t even utilize your video card, its all CPU.

Binafus.8153:

Every class thinks the game would be better without thiefs, but the thiefs will tell you it is a culling issue, becuase they can kill you before you know they are attacking.

Yes I have a geared level 80 Thief it is not even a challenge to kill anyone any thief that says otherwise is either bad or they do not want to get nerfed.

Calling everyone a bad player that disagrees with you means you are arguing from a position of weakness. You can scream for class nerfs without first fixing the issue rendering (pun intended) the most complaints.

Osaliske.4392:

It’s not even so much the system requirements. I’m running a very high end machine, and culling/rendering happens no matter. It’s the coding itself that causes the problems. Which is one of the reasons it will not be fixed anytime soon, or at all. The coding was poorly optimized. Hell, the game doesn’t even utilize your video card, its all CPU.

Culling is not a “bug” it was implemented on purpose during the headstart event because players’ PCs / connections could not handle the amount of information on screen. Culling did not exist in BETA because that was one of the performance “fixes” they implemented just after release.

To each his own I guess. If one class is going to make you quit this game then you weren’t in this game for the long haul nor have you taken the time to fully understand the potential of any of the other classes at your disposal. I run P/P as a thief and have face rolled other classes/players mainly because they were/are bad or a lower level than myself. WvW is the largest imbalanced area in all of GW2. A level 10 hopping into WvW is just screaming to get destroyed by any class that happens to be a true 80 runed/sigiled/full exotics. Thieves just happen to be able to do it without you seeing them and arguably a little faster. Battlefield awareness and knowing your strengths and weaknesses on the battlefield will only improve your fun in WvW. Do I get kittened when I get caught off-guard and targeted by a glass cannon thief of course I do, but I enjoy it even more when the attack fails and I end up AoEing said cannons SR field only to have a little red arrow pop up on my screen seconds later. Roll a thief to counter a thief is not what I’m saying here either. What I’m saying is before you make a rash decision about any class or your class, get leveled, get geared and know what you are looking to get out of WvW. It wasn’t designed for the Solo one man against the world mentality and if that’s what your after then you really shouldn’t have any input on the design or future of WvW.

“It wasn’t designed for the Solo one man against the world mentality”.
That’s exactly why people complain about the thief class, it’s the only class in the game that allows for this, D/D eles to a point, but no where as painfully obvious or blatantly so as the thief class.

It seems 90 % actually thief user fine with the combat repeatness style. Although those 90 % users are complaining about Guild Wars 1 Distortion Elementalist Tpvp build and receiving nerf afterward. So it is okay to have Warrior combo repeatness style. Because it make no sense that Warrior is stuck with swinging on air most of the time and getting hit randomly out of air. Thus 5 sec block active on 5 sec cooldown. And before saying this stuff aren’t okay l2p. They got 5 sec opening each 10 sec.

Dovgan.8605:

“It wasn’t designed for the Solo one man against the world mentality”.
That’s exactly why people complain about the thief class, it’s the only class in the game that allows for this, D/D eles to a point, but no where as painfully obvious or blatantly so as the thief class.

I’ve seen all the other classes be able to solo other classes very easily and in some situations 1v3. Once again it boils down to a players skill level and their gear. I wasn’t talking about the class in that sentence I was talking about the overall scheme in WvW. If you enjoy running around WvW alone be prepared for that glass cannon thief to be on your back and plan for it. If WvW for you is all about soloing, kittening about another class in an area designed specifically for group play is pretty pointless. I know it sounds crazy but give it some real thought.